What happens this week at the Conclave.
The ritual, the politics, the players, and the spiritual power. We'll get into all of it on this edition of The Conclave Crews. I want to welcome you to this Arroyo Grande series, The Conclave Crew Vatican Edition, Episode three.
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Let's convene the crew.
Father Gerald Murray, Canon Lawyer and the Archdiocese of New York and Robert Royal, editor in chief of The Catholic Thing dot org.
And I'm Raymond Arroyo.
Go subscribe to the Arroyo Grande podcast on iHeart, Apples, Spotify and YouTube at Arroyo Grande Show.
And like this episode, we are all about.
To watch a fascinating ritual unfold before our eyes the election of the two hundred and sixty seventh Pope. The Conclave begins May seventh, and as we've been saying more as we said in an earlier episode, all of this is a collection of traditions and practices that were picked up over two thousand years. Some historians claim that Saint Peter chose his own successors, a whole string of them, and that was the pattern for a while. Then Roman
clergy elected a few popes. Soon emperors got involved, and finally, in ten fifty nine, Pope Nicholas the second issued an election decree giving the College of Cardinals.
The power to elect the pope.
Father, tell me why this conclave process is so important? And I guess more importantly, why is the world paying so much attention to an event to elect a figure they barely understand.
It's important, Raymond, Because, of course, the Pope of the Catholic Church, the Roman Pontiff, as he's called, is the head of a religion which has a worldwide scope. We have what a billion and a quarter members of the church throughout the world, and the Pope is viewed by many non Catholics as one of the premier spokesmen of moral authorities, speaking on behalf of human rights and of religious liberty and of the things associated with the higher
aspirations of humanity. So that's, you know, it's of great interest to people. Now. The traditions and the like. Everybody loves traditions that involve you know, Renaissance palaces, and secret oaths and people locked in rooms making decisions. But all of that has a reason, And of course the election of the pope by the cardinals goes back to who the cardinals originally were. They were clergy of the Church
of Rome and the surrounding dioceses. So in fact, in the College of Cardinals there are three grades that the Cardinal Deacons, the cardinal priests, and the cardinal bishops. So in time they stopped selecting simply Roman clergy. They started naming bishops from important diocese throughout the world. That's why we have the international flavor of the College of Cardinals.
But it truly reflects a I would say, an ingenious way of filling the gap in the life of the church when the pope dies, because since he's a supreme authority, who's going to appoint a successor?
Well, Bob, this is the most incredible thing. I mean, the wisdom of the Church and the collected wisdom in the rituals and the patterns and the protocols. It not only has meaning, it was put there for a good reason, a good human reason that they learned over time. Gregory the Tenth in twelve seventy four tried to rein in the long election times, because some of these elections were
running into the years. He was the one who formalized Gregory the tenth the rules and insisted that cardinals assemble ten days after the death of the pope, with no private rooms and no outside communication with the key Compkave. Why is that formality observed today? Why is it important to sequester these gardens?
Well, the most obvious answer is that there are plenty of people who would like to influence who will become the next pope. Because it's a funny thing about the papacy that, on the one hand, we know that Catholicism is the central religion of the West, and therefore it
kind of underpins everything that the West stands for. That's good, But on the other hand, the catholteris as much hated throughout the world at the same time, so people pay attention to who is going to be the leader of this As father rightly says, more than a billion people all around the globe look to go into any of the Renaissance palaces here in Rome. It's one thing, they're beautiful.
We're a room ourselves that have some beautiful artwork, but to go into the Cystine Chapel and see paintings by Michaelangelo. As we were saying the other day, not only the creation, but the whole history of Old and New Testaments, the last judgment against the Wall. Pope John Paul the second wrote a poem about how that that painting in the sense would point out to the cardinal electors who which
select his successor. And so we have not only in conceptual terms or canonical terms, but even in those kind of deep ways that art and spirituality appeal to us, even in the ways we can't explain somehow that exerts a power through the papacy.
No, it's it's beautiful to behold.
I mean, it's one of the richest events, and it's filled with pageantry, it's filled with history, it's filled with art.
And it's unmatchable. Marty Grass can't touch it.
You know, there's really no celebration in the world that comes close to touching its ancient power.
And that's rooted in.
The spirit and in the words of Jesus Christ and the rock that is Peter, whom they are electing the successor to. Now. Earlier this week, all of the staff surrounding the conclave, and you think only the cardinals go in, and if you saw conclave, you probably think it's just a couple of nuns and the cardinals.
That's not true. They are bus drivers, they're a.
Priest hearing confessions by the way of the cardinals, the assistant to the comer Lango who's running the entire conclave, elevator operators, the hotel staff where they're staying. All of those people swore an oath of secrecy, and that forbids any recording device being used here, and it's a threat of excommunication if you violate that, if you violate the secrecy, or if you record anything.
Father. This secrecy is a big deal.
Why it's a big deal because the Catholic Church wants the cardinals who act to act solely in the interests of the church, and it wants it to be a singular act that's conducted and then when the pope is elected, it should never appear that the pope got to be pope as a result of any kind of backhand dealings of compromises between cardinals and the like, because yeah, if people knew that they could report, then they might take great success and say, well, you know the reason he's pope,
I got in the votes, that kind of thing, and I'm going to use that, you know, to have moral suasion over him for the rest of his pontificate. In addition, you know, the Catholic Church treats this as a moment of prayer. You know, the cardinals go in there. They when they leave the Poline Chapel, which is a chapel in the Vatican Palace, they assemble. They process into the assisting chapel, chanting the Litany of the Saints. They're asking
for the help of the saints. And when they get into the chapel, they hear a sermon from a cleric, they swear an oath to carry out their duties, and then they remain silent during the voting. So it's a very prayerful moment. So we don't want this to turn into a you know, I can't have my tape recorder in here, but I'm certainly scribbling all my notes, and
I'm going to tell everybody what really happened. No, what happened is in that room, with the help of the holies spirit and the intelligent, thoughtful decision making going on by the cardinals.
Well, and right now I'm told British government Secret service folks have come in to sweep the entire perimeter and the Cistine Chapel. That's who's doing the sweeping here, to make sure there are no listening devices or recording devices anywhere around. No one's even allowed and I was stunned
to see this. No one is even allowed among the staff to approach the cardinal electors once the conclave begins, so even when dinner's being served or they're getting on and off the bus, they can have no real contact with them.
Let's go through the movements.
Of this conclave process and what people can expect to see.
Father.
As you mentioned, following the Mass in the morning of the conclave, the cardinals will process into that Pauline Chapel, then to the Cistine Chapel, which we will see. We're going to see all of this, that procession and each cardinals swearing their oath in the Sistine Chapel. Then Italian Archbishop Diegi will stand at the door and yell la conte omnes everyone out, and that seals the conclave.
That's the beginning of the Solemn Conclave.
The cardinals now take their places, and the voting begins at a secret ballot, just one on that first day.
One ballot that first day. Why and Bob.
Tell me, tell me about the two thirds majority that's needed to win an election.
Right, Well, look, they're going to have a mass tomorrow, which is Thursday the seventh, and then they're will process in and they'll be sealed in there later in the day. I think at four o'clock is when they actually are going to enter in finally into the Assistine Chapel, and there's going to be one ballot. Now, when I think about this, I wonder, why not start the day early and you get things moving along. But I think maybe that's just a kind of a you know, testing the waters.
There's going to be one ballot at the end of the day, and about seven o'clock in the evening, if there's not a two thirds and plus one majority, basically that there will the black smoke will come up the chimney and then they will get back and be transmitted
by bus back to the Kasa Santa Marta. And now this is another element that you're going to see on your TV screens because where the Holy Father, where Pope Francis was living the Cossack Santa Market Martha, which is called often called a guest house, was deliberately built because I believe it was John Paul who decided that the cardinals living inside the Sistine Chapel it was just undignified.
It was it was unpracticed, impractical. So they get transferred back and forth by buses from one side of the Vatican basically to the other. But that two thirds majority is there to make sure that there's a relatively large majority that are going to agree on who is going
to be the next Pope. You could kind of think of it as sort of a filibuster, the way the American Senate thinks about it, that large decisions that have to be made can't just be made by fIF you really want to draw it and so that everybody, no one absolutely gets the figure that they want, but they there is at least enough consensus that most of the major interests are represented.
Now.
Father during that vote, as they come forward to vote, each man writes the name of his choice for pope, and the ballot in Latin reads I elect as Supreme Pontiff. And then they stand before Michael Angelo's last Judgment and they say I call as my witness Christ, the Lord who will be my judge, that my vote is given to the one who, before God I think should be elected. And then they drop their ballot and they earn, and
then the votes are counted. Do you think they have a list of potential candidates when they go into the conclave, Father, or at least in their minds.
Yes. I think each cardinal knows, of course, who they want to vote for first, and that's going to be done on the first ballot. Now, it's said that often cardinals will vote for someone who they know will never get elected, but they do it out of esteem. Because the way the voting is done is that everyone writes the name on the ballot. Then they come up. It's by order of seniority. They hold the ballot up in
their hands so that everyone can see it. Then they deposit it into the urn so that everyone can see it, because of course, what they want to avoid is someone putting it in their pocket and then pulling out three ballots with three names, you know, the same name three times to kind of like give an advantage to their like Chicago, Well this is you know, lgbl LJB LBJ might not have gotten elected if he was running in
the College of Cardinals. But leave that aside. What we can say is, though they get up, they repeat the words that you said, and they place it into the urn. This is a sacred election. It's this is an election in which they're trying to accomplish not simply their own will, but what they consider to be pleasing to God, that in fact they've decided on the best candidate.
A cardinal recently told us that he had five lists, you know, a list of five candidates when he went into the Conclave last time. And I know there are blocks that have formed around a certain candidate or pair of candidates. So the question is do they move for those candidates in the first vote to show their force, or do we just see a dribbling of votes toward that.
Candidate as this goes on.
Now, for those who saw Conclave the movie, one of the things they got right. They didn't get much right, but one of the things they got right was the stringing of the ballots. After the vote is callied by three scrutiners, then confirmed by three revisors, they actually confirmed the vote. Then the vote is read out loud so
that the cardinals can keep score as they go. Once they go through all of the ballots, the ballots are strung together and then burned in the oven of the Sistine Chapel, and that emits either the black smoke for no Pope or white smoke for the man who hit two thirds and eighty nine votes in this election. Bob, these cardinals, we've been talking about this the whole time. They don't know each other. They keep complaining to us that they don't know each other. Do you think that
could portend a long conclave? There are reports of the Italians or even split.
Yeah, I think that we never know, But I think that on the whole, the evidence kind of points to the fact that it will be a long conclave relative to recent conclicts. And by saying that, we ought to say that most recent popes have been elected in the first couple of days, So we mean by long is going to be a little bit longer than that. I mean there are provisions for if it goes even to twelve or thirteen days, and then you know, you can
change the way the things are done. There could be pauses along the way, but I don't anticipate that it's going to go quite that long. I wouldn't worry the way I see some commentators saying that it would give the impression that the church doesn't know what it wants to do if things go, say three or four days
or five days. I think that this is an important decision where a lot of us recognize that there's a kind of turning point, not only in the Church but in the world, and a lot of things that are happening that weren't around the last time in two thirteen. So I'm perfectly happy if they take their time. It'll be a bit frustrating, but let's hope at the end you get it right.
Father. There's only one vote on that first day.
On the second day of conclave, there are two votes in the morning, followed by a puff of smoke. Then there are two more votes in the afternoon, and another puff of smoke around seven o'clock. I have to admit I always find it hard. I found it hard since you know twenty what it was a two thousand and five. It was impossible to discern the white from the black smoke.
And the truth is a lot of this conclave has already finished, hasn't It isn't the die already cast before they walk into the Sistine Chapel due to the meetings and the events and the talking they've been having before the conclave.
Well, I'll answer the smoke question first. Yeah, they use chemicals to try and get the white smoke, and sometimes I not try. But then if it's the white smoke, certainly, shortly thereafter, the Vatican starts ringing the bells of Saint Peter's, So that's your if there's a question about the smoke, the bells will cons hermit. Now is everything cast in stone? I'll disagree with our host with a smile by saying
some things are some things aren't. Because, of course, if your favorite candidate is not going too well in the voting, you have to decide what point do I switch and who do I switch to? Because you may see because each each ballot you hear how many people were voted in. You can the count has taken. Each cardinal has a scribble pad and they can write notes down. So if they see, well, my number three guy is, you know,
nowhere to be seen. My number five guy, amazingly is in the second place, so I'm going to switch to him. So there is some things that happen, and perhaps I'll say this with all the cardinals that really don't know who the other ones are because they come from the peripheries. And somebody was saying the other day, for some cardinals, this is the second time they've been to Rome in their life, you know, because they were named and never
expected to be a cardinal. That in that case, those cardinals might say, well, I never had this cardinal in mind, but he's getting a lot of votes. Each ballot's going up, I'm going to vote for him. So no, the die
isn't cast. And that's one reason why. Of course, as Bob says, if it goes long, this indicates that the church is trying to figure out the cardinals are trying to figure out which man is the best to go for, even though in the beginnings people didn't really think he was the one who was going to get it.
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and finances there at Taylorfogne dot com. Bob John Paul the second put in place a rule that after three days of voting, that would be Friday, there's one day day of pause for prayer and conversation on Saturday.
Is that a full day?
I mean, I'm hearing conflicted things. Some have told me it may be just the morning session. I don't know.
I would think that probably the people who are running the conclave have to make that determination, and maybe the cardinals themselves. I talk with people outside of the Conclave and the general congregations and I tell them that I'm exhausted, and they tell me their fright. And you know, everyone, this is such an emotional and consequential point in the history of the church that I would not be surprised
if they took the whole day. But look, if they just feel like they need to get away out of that room and relax for a few minutes, that would be okay too. But it's just one day at the maximum, and they'll be back, I guess on Sunday.
Yeah, let's discuss some news before we get to what happens when a pope is elected, which I'll tell you about in a moment. Today, it was reported that Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras left in a huff ran out of the conclave. He was apparently trying to press Latin Americans to vote for Cardinal Robert Prevost, someone we discussed the other day on our previous episode. He's head of the bishop's diecaster. What do you make of that?
Father? How can we interpret that?
He apparently is quoted as saying, we've seen too many turncoats away from Pope Francis.
Well, interesting, now he fled the General Congregation. I guess you met rather than the concress. We'll just make that precision because they haven't gone in yet.
He can't vote anyways, tool.
Exactly second, he's over eighty. For him to make that kind of comment indicates that he thinks that the cardinals owe a duty to fall in line behind Pope Francis's vision of the church, to which I say, maybe, maybe not. You know, there were more than one vision of how the church should go. We lived for twenty three years with Pope John Paul the Second, another eight years with Benedict.
You know, in the church, the theological position taken by different popes varies, so saying should be the position that cardinals take. So I would say that Cardinal Maradiaga's upsetness reflects a lack of understanding of what's going on here. This is not a political campaign in which you say, you know, hey, if you're from Kansas, you got to vote from all the guys from Kansas. No, this is the Catholic Church, and you're you're not representing your region
in the profoundest sense. You're serving God in a role of great importance, representing the entire church in a certain way. So I would say that's what's going on here.
Bob.
What do you make of Cardinal Walter Casper, who's quoted as saying, I'm convinced we will continue along the Brigolio line. I have spoken to many cardinals, and the church cannot allow itself to backtrack your reaction.
Well, sure, the church can allow itself to backtrack if it finds it it's gone off on a tangent and it needs to be where the church needs to be. I'm kind of puzzled. I don't know that I trust this report entirely about Cardinal Maradiaga. I don't trust Cardinal Maradiaga entirely either. And it's interesting to think what did he do. Did he really pull all of the cardinals from Latin America or did he just get a strong reaction from.
Some of them.
Is it only about Provost? Is it also about others who we perceive to be in the in the so called in the line of Pope Francis, Because, as Father rightly says, this is not Democrats and Republicans where everybody is sort of whipped into place by the leaders of the party. You know, we talked, for example, about Cardinal Arborellius of Sweet the other day, who seems to be a very orthodox, prayerful man, but he's also pro immigration, which seems to divide him between two different parts of
the Francis legacy. So you can't expect there to be kind of party plane. And the fact that somebody would claim that there are too many turncoats, I mean, I mean, what is this? You know, are they going to be executed because they they've been unfaithful to their vow?
Don't give them any ideas, Bob, but.
Just some all of this up. I think it's a much more Fathers right, It's a much more complicated thing where a cardinal who's an authentic person trying to discern what's right for the church is going to have multiple considerations and it's not going to be am I going to follow this full line or that full line. This is a new moment. Some things will stay the same, and we will also be turning the page on other things.
Father, and then Bob, I want to want you to comment on this new report of Cardinal Togley. The report is that he has a gambling problem and apparently gambling debt. I'm always I'm always a little dubious about these stories because they pop up in the eleventh hour, right before the conflict.
But Father, your reaction, and then I'll go to Bob.
Yeah, reading that notice in the the New Compass, Richard Kasholi is a serious man. He's the editor of a very important website, the Comments on the Catholic Church here in Italy and beyond. Uh. He publishes it. He's got evidence, he's got you know, backed up. It's not just one person. So if it's the case that Cardinal Togli has a gambling debt, you know that's a serious concern because you know who's the debt to who's the holder of the debt?
How is that going to be cleared? H What does that imply for the fact that he might be influenced by people with whom he's been dealing. You know, the gambling debt is supposed to be in Far East and Macau, which is under the communist Chinese control. So it's it's it's a serious report and I think now is the right time for Cardinal Tagli to come beforeward and either deny or explain what this whether this report is accurate.
Yeah, Bob, the last minute politicking is amazing. I mean, there was a group of.
Alleged young people who issued an open letter pleading for a more inclusive church, a more welcoming church, a continuation of Francis's thrust, and of course it was created by and packaged by Pox Christie, which is a left of center Catholic group. Tell me the impact of that, if any, And what do you think of the Toaglay report.
Well, I mean all these reports tend to have a big impact on people who wanted to have a big impact. I mean it's notorious here in Italy that cardinals have the channels that they leak to their favorite journalists, they put ideas out. I mean, just a few days ago we heard, for example, about Cardinal Paroline's apparent panic attack or blood pressure crisis, and some of the Italian papers that I was reading said this was put out from
Anglo Saxon sources, and so they were trying. You know, I would not pay too too much attention this Togglass story, though, I mean, I think we've all heard about this from credible sources, and I knew at least one source that did not publish it because they couldn't confirm it yet. I know Richard Carshole quite well. I respect him very
much as a journalist. And the fact that they came forward and said that there were five sources that they had to confirm this, and oh, we're hearing several hundred thousand dollars of his Communist Chinese is not a good foot forward for someone about to become pope. But we'll see it. I suppose.
Back to the process of the conclave, which I did promise when we started. Once a man secured the two thirds vote of the College of Cardinals, they ask him, will you accept your canonical election?
Is Supreme Pontiff? Do we know or do you know, father, have anybody refused? Has anyone ever refused the office?
That's a good question, and I don't know the answer, But it's canonically very important because the way canon law is written, the fact that he gets the majority the votes does not make him the pope. He has to accept it. So therefore, if he were to say no, he's not being he's not at fault, he's not being disloyal, he's not being lacking trust in God. You could see someone getting elected who knows, for instance, that he has a medical condition that he's never spoken in publicly that
could you know, seriously shorten his life. You could know that there were stories of things that may now be revealed that would you know, hurt him or other people in ways that were not necessary, Or he might simply say I'm not up to this job. You know, the fact that you become a cardinalist, there's no you know, vetting of people become cardinals in the sense of, well,
this guy make a good pope. He got elected. Some don't you know, possess let's say, knowledge, experience, training and the like, which would you know, ordinarily be required for someone who's going to head a major institution. You know, they're much better at the local leadership of the church. So they might say, no, I enjoy being Bishop of Xville. I don't think I could carry it out. So that's it. Once you accept, then you're the pope. Then that's it.
Follow through comes, yeah, Well, once the new pope accepts that job, they're asked, and this I've always found fascinating, by what name would you wish to be called? Now, that's a tradition. I looked it up today because I really didn't know. It's a tradition that goes back to five p thirty three. Before that time, all the popes use their baptismal names, so you'd be Pope Bob and Pope Jerry.
I'd be Pope Raymond.
But in five point thirty three a priest name Mercurius was elected pope, and since he was named after a pagan Roman god, he decided to choose the name and take the name John the Second, after his predecessor, and that tradition stuck a great example of how we've picked up these bits and pieces of the tradition, the ritual, the process of selecting a pope, and then the papacy itself those chosen names tell us a lot about these men, though, don't they.
Bob, Yeah, I mean, we know from just this recent case of Francis that that name had never been chosen by anyone before. And it's kind of a paradoxical name to choose, because on the one hand, every Catholic I think Revere's Saint Francis VISSIZI. It's just because he's he's just such an amazing human being. And if you don't know about him and you're listening to this, go out
and read into what he was like. But on the other hand, to take on that name is also to take on a big inheritance, you know, And so it'll be interesting to see what the next pope decides to do with his name. Of course, John Paul the Second. I was living in Italy the year that John Paul the Second was elected, and we had that just one month reign of John Paul the First, who picked that
name because he wanted to. It signified that he was going to accept the inheritance both of John the twenty third and of Paul the sixth, and to try to bring everyone together. And then John Paul came in after the very sudden unexpected death of John Paul the First and decided, yes, that's a good line to follow, and of course he had a spectacular papacy. But you're right. There's an old Latin phrase that nomina suntanumina, that the
names are spirits, their names are spirits. And so you put a name out there, and you put your seal on yourself.
Well, we will be excitedly awaiting the name of the next pope because it does give you a big key into who he is. And once the pope accepts the office, he's ushered into what they call the Room of Tears.
It's a little room off the Sistine Chapel. You're seeing it there, and there are three sizes of white cassocks and ziccketdo's, and the new pope puts one of them on, hopefully one that fits, and appears on the loggia of Saint Peter's where this time Cardinal Mumberti, who is the eldest cardinal in the order of Deacons, he will announce jabemos popam, we have a pope. What does that tell us father that moment, And in retrospect, I think it
tells us a lot. When they first appear, it is the first and.
Yes, and that really is the great moment. Now it's all done in Latin, by the way, so Latin is not a dead language, at least in Rome. It's still very much alive. And that's always one of the things you have to figure out, how do you say the name the first name in Latin. So most people bear the name of a saint, so saint names are known in Latin because they're in the Roman calendar in Latin. But if it's like someone who has the family last name is their first name, they're gonna have a little
experimenting to do. In any event, what happens is the name is said, and then people try to pick up on it because they say the first name and then they say the family name, so the given name and then the family name. So I remember with Jorge Bergolio, when I heard the Georgias, I was thinking, could it be George pell who was the cardinal from Australia, But it turned out to be the cardinal from Buenos Ayres.
The deacon will also announce he said saint, which name he's take, So we'll find out at that moment whether he's jump all the third, you know, Bennett, the seventeenth. Francis the second jump, Baul, Yeah, whatever name they pick, Pie is the thirteenth. And then that'll give us an indication of which pontificate that particularly inspired this person. And of course the Pope comes out, we'll see him giving his greetings to the people, and the applause will be massive.
You know, last time it was raining, if you may remember, yeah, I do, the applause was still very, very loud.
And yeah, it's always that's the big moment.
I mean, that's the moment that gives your butterflies and kind of takes your breath away when the Pope first appears and he is a new man, he's no longer the cardinal you knew him ass And they do transform in office in sometimes wonderful ways and sometimes not.
So wonderful ways. But we'll be watching it all.
So the most surprising thing or interesting thing you came across today, Bob.
That's a good question. I think that the way in which things have somewhat calmed down has surprised me. I see a number of people, and I talk to a number of people who who some with very strong opinions about one thing or another in the church. But there seems to have been kind of a settling down that we know who the people are, we know generally what the possible directions are going to be. So it's let's get serious. Let's get down to business. The voting starts tomorrow.
This is great father. The most interesting or surprising thing you heard today?
Well, I guess the most interesting thing I've heard is that two candidates that I think are particularly going to be in the running. I keep hearing good things about them. Cardinal Pitzabala from Jerusalem talking to people, finding out, you know, what they know about and what they've heard about him.
And likewise, one of the curial cardinals, Cardinal Mambert. We mentioned him, you mentioned him as the Cardinal Deacon of greatest longevity, another name again being confirmed, what a good man he is and what a good pope he would be. So you know, we're all in the information gathering mode here and talking to people and hearing. You know, how often do we praise each other? Maybe not enough, but when you're started hearing praise about two men who could be the next pope, my years perked up.
Well, gentlemen, we will leave it there.
The Royal Grande Conclave Crew Vatican addition will continue. Don't miss our next episode. Go subscribe. We're going to give you the latest. Go to a Royal Grande show on YouTube or a Royal Grande podcast wherever you get yours. And this series has been brought to us and you by our friends at Taylor for Gone Capital Management, Faith, Family and Finances. There at Taylorforegone dot com as well
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We will convene again. I'm Raymond Arroyo from Rome, Say next time.
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