So because of the horrifying weekend we had in the United States, the news coverage kind of obliterated was going on in Hong Kong. After eight weeks of protest. There was more almost as much tear gas fired at protesters yesterday by the Chinese government as in the previous eight weeks combined. I mean, the protests have really he hit a fever pitch. The protesters are shutting down buses, trains,
caused two flights to be canceled. Meanwhile, the trade conflict with China continues and that could have serious ramifications economically, especially in the future. To discuss these twin topics, we've invited on the terrific Gordon Chang, who is an American columnist, blogger, television pundit, author, lawyer. He's widely known for his book The Coming Collapse of China, as well as other good stuff. Gordon Chang joins us, Gordon, how are you, sir, fine,
thank you, and thank you so much. Listen, there are plenty of sins from the colonial era, um, plenty of bad stuff happened. On the other hand, the people of Hong Kong, which was a British colony, um are probably dreaming, fantasizing of returning to the days as a British colony. What is their likely future now under the control of the communist Chinese. Yeah, that's a great question. Um. Both
sides have hardened their positions. UM. The kids, the demonstrators, the pro democracy forces clearly do not want Chinese interference in Hong Kong. China promised fifty years of self rule under the one Country, two systems formula of semi autonomy,
and right now Beijing has clearly violated that promise. UM. So you see kids who have now said this is the last stand for Hong Kong, and many of them have said they're willing to die, and as four of them have committed suicide in circumstances where it looks like they're linked to the protests. UM. You know, Beijing right now probably doesn't know what to do. They've lost control of the situation. UM. At some point they probably will
send in the People's Armed Police and the People's Liberation Army. UM. But that's clearly a last last resort for them because they know that Hong Kong is not armored car country and they're in for a long term struggle with a very unhappy population. What do you mean not an armored car country. Well, um, people talk about tenement in connection
with Hong Kong, and they asked, could that happen again? Well, Beijing has these wide boulevards at the time, Um, it was perfect place for tanks and armored cars to maneuver and to engage in the slaughter. Hong Kong is pretty you know, We've got narrow streets, got tall buildings. Um. There's all sorts of things that determined opposition can do. And I think that essentially you could see um pitched
battle and not it would be blood on both sides. Well, and having read a lot about it again with the universary just recently the square when they cracked down, part of the problem that um, the Chinese government had was there a lot of young soldiers that were on the side of the protesters and didn't really want to go in there and wipe them out. How is that working
in this case with the Hong Kong protesters. Well, also in there were a lot of generals who didn't want to do this, and and some generals just absolutely refused. Dung Haoping, the paramount leader at the time. UM. This time, UM, you know they're bringing in people who don't like Hong konger's Um. The problem right now, there's a lot of problems with the Hong Kong police, but as you suggest,
a lot of them do sympathize with the protesters. They've got family on the other sides of the barricades, and they right now, they're demoralized, they're fatigued. Um. There's no discipline or very little discipline that you can see, um. And that's one of the reasons that might force Beijing to do something it doesn't want to do. But if they're going to bring in people, they're gonna bring in people who have no sympathy at all for Hong Kong residents,
and so this could get really nasty. Well, yes, today they announced the Chinese government announced to the protesters, do not take restraint for weakness. Is that as chilling as it sounds, Um, it's chilling, but it's hollow. And we know this because the Chinese take our restraint for weakness. The Chinese communists will wield power when they believe they have an advantage. If they're just issuing dire warnings, it means that they don't know what to do. If they
are going to move. Um, we're going to see I think much different language um from China, which would be basically, if you don't stop this immediately, we will bring in the troops. Um. They're not saying that right now, so I don't think that they're going to do it. Um. Ce Jumping, of course is at a probably desperate He's got a Hong Kong problem, the trade problem in America problem, and economy problem. He's got problems um that we don't even know about. I'm sure. And let's transition to that
in like fifteen seconds. But one more question. How widespread is the support for the protests and the protesters among Hong Kongers. I would think that they've got maybe somewhere about sevent the population are on their side. One thing you haven't heard is condemnations from most Hong Kong people about violence. There are a lot of you know, smart people in the U said, oh, the protesters are going to lose support because of their violent tactics, and they've
said that in the middle of June. Well, that hasn't happened yet because most Hong Kong people, while they might not like the violent tactics, are more focused in on China. Carrie Lamb who's the Hong Kong Chief Executive, and bad Hong Kong police tactics, right, and they're not armshare quarterbacking there in the middle of it. They know what the risk is. Yeah, And essentially what you've got is the kids are getting free passes. The kids can overreact and
overstep the line. I'm not saying they can't do that. I think they probably will do it, but right now they've got the support of most people in Hong Kong. All right, let's transition to the pressure on she and the Chinese regime. How bad is it and why? I think they a lot of pressure And the reason is Ci Jumping has unprecedented power, which means he also has
unprecedented accountability. In the old Chinese system, that was before he became General Secretary in two thousand twelve, there was shared responsibility, so if there was something that went wrong that the paramount leader didn't get blamed, well, Ci Jumping has taken power from everybody, so there's nobody else to blame.
And also he's de institutionalized the Communist Party by getting rid of rules, which mean there are no rules to protect him, which means that when things go well for for China, as they did in two thousand and seventeen, C Jumping got a lot of credit, got a lot of power. When things are going badly for him as they are now, he's got nobody else to look to. So I think he's in trouble right now. And we can see this from a number of different circumstances um
which can't be explained by other assessments. So China walks away from some commitments they made earlier in the trade thing. Trump says, I'm going to increase it by ten September for China de values their currency even more. And you tweeted yesterday and it got some attention. Today Donald Trump became a wartime president. What does that mean. It means that the Chinese have just sort of shown a throne restraint to the winds and they're now acting in an
extremely belligerent, extremely hostile manner. You know, there has been a trade war since the early ninety nineties. We Americans just ignored it um but it's become at this point something you can't ignore. Beijing is attacking our society. And it's not just in trade, of course, not just economics. It's Also they're putting on they harming our service personnel, they've injured our diplomats. This is at the point where we've got to fight back, and so this is a war.
We're talking Gordon, Shang and Gordon. We barely have a minute left. But given the US position that you've got to stop the theft of R and D, you've got to stop demanding total access to companies that invest in in China. Um, and the nature of the Chinese government. Is there any reconciling those two things. No, we are in a struggle, um and Um. People don't want to hear this, but I don't think that we can coexist with China. At least we can't to co exist with
the People's Republic in China. We can get along well with the Chinese people. Wow, you know, I haven't seen a lot to suggest you're wrong. I don't see a solution. I've got a reasonably vivid imagination. Uh. Gordon Chang is an American author, columnst thinker, an expert on China and Asia. Gordon, it's always enlightening, um, and we hope we can do it again soon. Yes, well, thank you so much. All Right, it's our pleasure. His latest book is Losing South Korea.
He doesn't as well. He doesn't think we can coexist with China. Wow, we'll have to discuss that more at some point and