Charlatans & Liars. Tim Sandefur Talks to A&G.

I was seven years old. I don't know if other people are the same, but the ratings are down quite a bit. Anyway, welcome to the program. I'm glad you hear. You picked a good moment to tune in because everybody likes Tim the lawyer. We call him Tim Sanderford. He's the vice president of Litigation for the Goldwater Institute. He's written a number of fantastic books. Will mention at the end of this interview Suit that you can go by them immediately. Tim, How you doing, dude? How are you

doing all right? I know you're an anti sports guy. Are you anti Olympics? Yeah? I'm very much anti Olympics. I cannot stand the idea that our athletes would compete on an equal footing with enslaved children from China, and that we would then lend the the oppressive Chinese government. And this goes to other tyrannical governments. Also the credibility of uh that that goes along with taking them as

an equal. It's disgraceful, disgraceful to me to see these athletes, our athletes got there and worked their their whole lives to pursue a dream on the same balance beam with children who are forced into virtual slavery by a totalitarian government overseas and and compelled to compete on pain of punishment, as if that's somehow the same thing. No, I think the Olympics should be abolished immediately. Wow, there you go, strong,

strong opinion from Tim Sanderford. I'll tell you, I'm shocked that this whole because the Olympics are supposed to be in China right after you know, next year Winter two, So not that farman. I can't believe that that had have been canceled, that all of the good countries of the world haven't pulled out yet they were still acting

like that's gonna happen. Uh, Like I'm okay with the Olympics happening in Japan right now, And uh, I get what you just said, but um, there's no way we can send an Olympic team to China and let them have that platform to show off the city of Beijing. Yeah,

I would think. You know, the original Olympics, the whole idea when it was recreated in the nineteenth century was that we were going to have you know, it would be for peace, for world peace, and everybody would drop politics and just compete together and forget their political differences.

But the one because it's all about politics now, it's just prestige competitions between governments that want to pound themselves on the chest and say how great and bold they are when back home they're throwing their people into concentration camps and forcing them to make wallets for for uh sale overseas. No, it's just just just as graceful. It should be completely ended. Both it makes you feeling better. Our US men's basketball team beat Iran by fifty points yesterday,

so you know that does make me feel better. I kind of feel like this is well trodden ground, but it keeps popping up, and I know it's going to end up in schools around the country the sixteen nineteen project. You have written eloquently on this, you've spoken uh forcefully

on this. Could you give us kind of a short version for people who don't know what the sixteen nineteen project is, because again, they might be teaching to your schools, in your schools if your kids are allowed to go back to school this year, which is a different topic, but they might be teaching to your your kids this year. What is it and what's the many flaws? Well, it's in the same way that that critical race theory is both the st project is very vague in certain crucial ways.

So it's supposed to be about trying to emphasize black history more, to talk about the consequences of slavery, more to talk about the ways in which the discrimination after the Civil War perpetuated racial and inequalities, and and the heroic stories of the people who triumphed over those those obstacles.

And in that sense, that's great. But then when you start reading the text, you find that it goes further and it makes certain claims about the nature of the United States and says that America was founded on slavery, that what makes America essential is the existence of slavery, and that the American Revolution was fought in order to perpetuate slavery, and that the Constitution was written in order

to protect slavery. And those are all factually false and really dangerous propositions to be teaching children, to tell them that they were and remain fundamentally excluded from the American Dream. It's contrary, for one thing, it's contrary to the views of those who fought for civil rights just in the nineteen sixties, who insisted no black Americans are entitled to participate in the American Dream. They have as much legitimate claim to the Declaration, and the and the Constitution as

anybody else does. But the sixty nineteen project idea oology turns that backwards and says, no, this isn't always has

been a white supremacist nation. And of course those white supremacists out there they applaud that, they say, yeah, right, you know so, I think I think in that sense plays into the hands of the white racists who would say that this country was and remains for whites only, whether it's the sixteen nineteen project or a variety of other things, that we're we're constantly talking about now and and teaching in schools or you know, become the hot

topic of the day. Has has any nation ever in its history turns so self hating as the United States has, or at least segments of the United States, I don't know of it. It's really weird. Well, there was the nihilist movement in Russia in about nineteen hundred, uh, you know, which set the stage for terrible things that followed. Yeah, I think there there have been times when nations have been this kind of self critical. But you're right that

this goes beyond self critical. This goes into genuine self hatred, which tells people that there is no greater purpose to the American dream. And you know, in fact, and this is this is what inspired my article. Was was Nicoleheannah Jones,

who is the charlatan behind nineteen project. And charlatan is a perfectly uh the right word to use, because they've retracted or she's walked back a whole bunch of different stuff from that bride winning article without admitting it, without acknowledging it, They've erased it without saying that they've changed it, which is charlatan is um And when challenged on her historical claims, she resorts to accusing her critics of racism instead of responding to them on the on the merits.

So that's the that's the the surefire sign of a Charlottean, so her she said in at one point defending herself, she said, well, this was all about about a narrative, about telling a narrative about American history. This isn't supposed to be factual. We're this is about creating a story about America. Well we all knew that that that that's

the whole point. And what it was is it's an alternative theory of what the American dream is, the alternative to that which is articulated in the Declaration of Independence. That's what it is is. It was an attempt to say the Declaration of Independence is a lie and was written by liars, and that in fact, not all men are created equal, and that in fact, the Constitution's authors did not really mean this. Now, as I said, they're very vague about this. So the authors of the project

are very vague about this. So then they'll turn around and say, no, no, we're saying that they that these were noble ideals, but they didn't really live up to them. But that's a very different thing than saying what they actually say, which is that these ideals were were false from the beginning, which is a quotation from the from

the project. So it's vague on purpose in order to allow them to to make assertions about America being evil and then when they're called on it, to dance back across the line and say, no, no, we're just saying that America was great in theory, but people fail to live up to the noble ideals. But that's not what

they're really doing. For for so many, um, particularly academics in this in this country, and then a lot of the students that they're teaching the nation, were like a human being that has gone from ignoring all our flaws and being uh, you know, pompous and a little deluded as to uh to to uh you know where we fit in in terms of good and bad to like all we do now is we're like a person that only emphasizes their failures and walks around saying, nobody could

ever love me, nobody should ever love me. I'm a bad person. It's just so weird, that's right, And there's a rhetorical strategy behind this on the part of those who are propagating it, and that is, if you want to destroy great ideals, the first thing to do is to destroy idealism outright, or to elevate things that are not really ideal to the status of ideals in order to obscure the desire, the aspiration for truth and goodness.

You tell people that there is no such thing as truth and goodness, or that things that are not true and are not good are really true and good, in order to confuse them. And that's the strategy. That's similar strategy is that played with with critical race theory. Critical race theory says that there is systemic racism and that we should pay attention to systemic racism. What but but the ambiguity here is what do we mean by system?

What system exactly are we're talking about some If you're talking about something like let's say the drug war, well, you know there are ways in which the drug war has racist elements to it from its history and and the way it's enforest and so powder cocaine that, and we can have that discussion absolutely. But if what you mean by system is say capitalism, then we have a

very different story that capitalism is not inherently racist. Capitalism is the greatest boon ever enjoyed by racial minorities in the history of the species. So it's it's carefully designed to be ambiguous so that when people say systemic, what they mean is the same thing that the hippies meant when they said the establishment right right exactly at the piece. I like it when you mentioned the Hippies Olympics hating

Tim sander for on the line. Um, So if sixteen nineteen project comes up in your school, like you find out your kids are being taught that, I'll tell you what. Google sixteen nineteen project and Tim Sanderford's name, and you'll come up with some of the stuff that he has written, and you'll have the ammunition you need to fight back against your school board. Now, Tim, if you can hang around for a little bit, I got a couple of questions because you are one of the You're one of

America's leading finkers on freedom. According to George will of the Washington Post, you're an American treasure. So a lot of people out there haven't gotten the vaccine. I didn't see that coming. I thought we were going to, you know, race to figure out a vaccine, come up with a vaccine, figure out how to get it out, and people got and get vaccinated. I didn't I didn't really see this coming that there would be a pretty big chunk of

the country that decided they didn't want to get the vaccine. Now, you're your lefty media really likes to make it all about dumb white Trump voters, and and uh and uh, there are an awful lot of other people that aren't getting the vaccine. Also, for instance, of New York City's Department of Education employees aren't vaccinated. I doubt many of those were Trump voters. And there are a lot of

examples of that in big cities across the country. And uh, for instance, um, African American men are as a percentage, they as a group of people aren't getting the vaccination in the highest numbers. So um. So there's a lot of talk now of forcing people to do it. You're a libertarian with the great thinkers in America. Where do

you come down on the government forcing people to get vaccinated? Well, the libertarian principle is that it should be up to the property owner whether to require somebody to have the vaccine before going on his property. If I'm a homeowner and somebody didn't come and have dinner at my house, I have the right to say you can't come over to my house if you don't have a vaccine. Same

thing if I'm a business owner or whatever. So the libertarian answer is that it's a question of prior at property rights, and that leaves people free to decide for themselves whether to get the vaccine and come over to my house or not get the vaccine and not come over to my house. So the problem that we have is that we've reduced the rights of property and business owners so drastically in today's world that people feel like they have to look to the government to tell give

them guidance on on questions that ought to be individual choices. So, um, well, okay, well back to their does the federal government if if they're going to start if the government's going to start mandating this, is this a federal government thing? Is state government thing? Who has got the power to even do this? It should well, As with everything having to do with

health and safety, it's primarily a state matter. And and that's another thing where we've diverged so much from what the Constitution actually requires by giving so much power to the federal government, when in fact this should be a question that decided at the state level. So for like my school, everybody knows who's got kids in school. There are a number of shots that you have to get

to attend a public school. Is that a is that a county Bay county thing that is informed by the federal government, or is that a federal mandate under existing law, it's probably a thing where the the school district gets funding from the Feds, and in exchange for that funding, you have to agree to a whole bunch of things.

That's the way most federal control has expanded in the in the twentie and early twenty one century is by the Feds coming along and saying, well, well, we'll give you this this grant, but you have to agree to follow our rules if you if you receive the grant, and of course you can't really refuse the grant because that's your tax money. They've taken that money from you already, and they say, we'll give you your tax money back if you agree to these rules, and so you know,

you don't really have a choice about the matter. But that's the way most federal mandates are imposed now is I know how you feel about a lot of the business shutdowns and school shutdowns and everything like that. But as an individual, and you've got you know, as much bona fights as anybody I know in America in terms of libertarian freedom. You know, on my own person, the

government can't make me do things, blah blah blah. Have you felt like the line was crossed for you personally and wearing masks or vaccines or anything at any point during this pandemic? Not really, No, But remember that I I I reside in Arizona, which had a very different

restaurant to to the pandemic than California did. In California, have Governor Newso basically declaring one man rule, even though the state legislature is in session now and could make the rules, he decides, No, No, I'm going to make the rules for everybody unilaterally and impose those on everybody.

That was very different than the way our state did it, which was our governor asked people to stay home for a while and then asked them to remain safe, and then local governments, counties I had the primary responsibility for setting safety rules for how businesses should operate. So I just have two minutes left, and this just came up in my own real life, and I want to ask you about this because you know a lot about the Second Amendment. So I wanted to buy some ammunition the

other day. I already own a gun, but I wanted to buy bullets, and I went to the local Big five, and at least in the county in the state that I live in, the amount of paperwork that they handed me and the number of things that I had to do to just buy some bullets was freaking unbelievable. How expensive it is the paperwork for the basic background check for buying bullets. Um, I have to find my birth certificate that I've got somewhere in a box or whatever.

How does this stop violate my Second Amendment right to keep in bear arms? Oh? Of course it violates your Second Amendment rights. It's death by a thousand cuts, or or as they say, being nibbled to death by ducks. Right. The state biocrats know perfectly well how to make life

difficult for you. And then they can say, well, we're not denying you, We're just saying you have to fill out yet another form and you have to wait another six months or we at the Goldwater Institute actually have are suing the state of Illinois for failing to issue people the permits to which they are legally entitled to have to hold firearms. Even the state law says that there's a deadline for the estate to decide whether to

give you or denying the permit. Instead, they just completely ignore this deadline and take years sometimes to decide whether or not to give you your firearms permit. Meanwhile, you have dangerous riots in Chicago and people want firearms to protect themselves, and the state says, oh, no, you you you have to fill out yet another form and wait another six months. Uh, you know, rely on the police. We are unfortunately out of time. Tim, and I really

appreciate everything you had to say today. I'm gonna pump your bucks. You want to come back and get