A Discussion on Menopause

Adventist Radio London inspiration for the song Welcome the Talking Point with Ray Pedro Angeler discussing the hot topics and answering your questions, Saturdays five to seven pm on Adventist Radio London. It's talking Point, it's talking Point, it's talking Point, it's talking Point. Conversations you need to have. Okay, good evening, Good evening, and welcome to Talking Point. It's a oh. It's been another long Sabbath afternoon, but hopefully it's been a good one wherever you

are. Once again, I thank you for joining us. If you're out there wherever you are, as per usual, I am joined with my two co hosts, Zenya and Pedro, I want to thank you for joining us today. It's going to be an interest another interesting topic, one that sometimes many people don't talk about, as many of our topics are on Talking Point. But together started, we're going to just start with prayer and get the program started. So let's pray. Oh Bah God, I want to thank

you for blessing us with another sabbathday. Dear Lord, I want to thank you for allowing us to come on this platform to share a message. We're going to talk about another area that impacts many many people, not only the women that go through it, but also the people around them. I pray, Dear Lord that this program will be informative, somebody will learn something, and somebody will definitely be blessed by it. Thank you, Dear Lord for hearing an answering. Amen. Amen, So how are we? Both,

Senya and Pedro. It's been and I know I can probably speak for all of you because I'm going to say it's been a really busy week, but tell me how has your week been before I go into mine. Pedro, Let's start with you. How many bals have he clocked up this week? Actually, I have not done that many. It's been in a quiet week this week. They've given me a little bit of a break in the two jobs a day. So yeah, so I'm not being, you know,

not as bad. But I think it's because I had a little situation where I kind of, yeah, where I kind of lost my cool little bit. So I think they felt maybe I've been they've been pushing me, so they said, maybe need give him a little break. I know my manager she's yeah, she kind of was like, you know what, he may be a little because I was under the weather with the chest. Colm feeling much better now, still get some cold every now and then in my chest

passing it on. Now Kaya and Toy will both have it, so they've been coughing a little bit themselves and making Kaya's asthma act up. But I was for that, Yeah, I kind of a guy, was being patient, being a little rules. I told him to come out and tell me

to my face. I left it on his voicemail. Yeah. So as soon as I sounds like oh man, I was like, I have to call my manager to be like yo, I just said this that he contacted my boss, and my boss called me and yeah, so it was less I think when they when I did that, which is really out of my character because I'm really normally cool, I just let it fall off my back. But I think I was like, not feeling well, and I was just like he was just you know, being dis I hainte. One thing

I don't like is disrespectful people. Yeah, and he was the person was being really disrespectful. So when they did that, I was just like, yo, you know it comes say that to my face. I was just like, what it's fun, Yeah, it's all you know, you know. But you know, so it's all handled though, you know, I didn't you know, it was my first time in two and a half years, so I'm allowed to make you know, I'm allowed to make mistakes. And it sounds like you probably the break as well. Yeah, so I

think they kind of eased up my work. So I've had a nice you know, I have I've had work, but you know, it's been been good. So yeah, my son has been away for a couple of days. He went on the residential sports day something oh the time sleep. Yeah, so they took him away for like three days. He comes back tomorrow, Okay, So yeah, so, uh, it's been weird not having extra kid in the house. It has been kind of yeah, quiet and

weird. Yeah, but that was for that. My wig has been been you know good, just dealing with the It has been raining down there. It's been off. Yeah, definitely like porn rain, because it's been porn

rain up there, like it's cats and dogs. And because I live in the mountains, I've been driving through fog like every day, like thick fog like you cannot like like fog where you you can't see nothing for like and then it comes up when you're like ten twenty feet away and then it's like far and then you can see where you are, but then maybe fifty feet ahead you can't see nothing because it's nothing but fog because I don't know if

you guys realize Halifax is actually in mountains. So yeah, yeah, so when you're yeah, like the highest elevation is actually M sixty two. I think at extra twenty two is the highest elevation, so it's like really up there. So it's really when it gets like ring like this and stuff, it just really the clouds is really coming encompassed the whole area. Oh wow, Yeah, No, definitely, we definitely know some of that summer is over. It would appear definitely. There's a definitely chill in the air,

so I guess winter is on its way. So yeah, well does he hear that? You're feeling much better to hear, So that's good. So Xanya, how about you? That's your week been well? I have to say that Pedro also gave me his cold the computer virus. She texted me the other day. She said, I think you gave it to me. I think you know you heard you heard the computer viruses, right, So maybe it's a true essence. It's from a computer virus, It's true.

So I also have been down with the old chest direction perhaps just a whole load of stuff going on with me, and I'm just grateful for the rest. Have been off a few days from And it's funny, and you were talking offline about how we are sometimes forced to stop. You know, we go, we go, we go, We don't even know that we're moving a million miles a minute, and then we just hit a brick wall where

the body just goes, you know what. It's time for me to put a full stop right about here, and we just have to stop, rest, restock, retake, you know, refresh even And that's sometimes where we are. And like Pedro, you know, we can kind of go go, go go, and then it's our responsibility more or less to stop ourselves, but we we often don't. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. It's

funny. We talk a lot about self care and looking after ourselves and sometimes and I know I'm guilty of this, and I you know, my job, and sometimes I don't practice what I preach, But sometimes the signs are there and we listen to our bodies, but listen to what you know, we've been told until as she says, to come down. But definitely we're coming into flu season. COVID seems to be making a big comeback because quite a few people have been hit with that again, so well, increasingly more

important. I suppose as we go into the winter and full season to take care of ourselves, stock up and vitamin D and you know, all that good stuff that we know we should do, but perhaps don't take the time to do it. And I'm sure maybe when she does come on can give us a little bit morerant that as Yes, thank sure, this is one of these two actually possibly tackles on a day to day basis with her clients.

Just we don't as women, maybe definitely, we definitely don't take the care and what we're going to be talking we're not not not what we're talking about. I'm just talking about the self care, yeah, definitely, But I'm just talking about self care and I'm talking about what we're talk about, but I'm talking about in the self care aspect. Yeah, I'm the one I'm doing that. I hate hospital, so yeah, I have to be

like on my death bed to go to the doctor. I like that, but I have to be really like really really really really sick to then go to I'm not going to the doctor. Well that segues nicely into I guess what we've talked a little bit about today, because I think self care is going to be and looking after ourselves going to be a big part of all of this. So October, there's several things that are celebrating in October.

Actually obviously Black History Month, and the theme this year has been celebrating our sisters and actually a little bits around that, but actually we have been featuring women who are making a difference and an impact in their communities and the lives of other women. And our two guests today are definitely doing that as well. So we're looking forward to speak to hearing from them. Got to adopt her, but we're talking about menopause. And before a minute, I'm sorry,

one minute, one second, because I forgot you said October. You know, I just realized, what's that along with Black History? It was my anniversary eighteen year anniversity in October third so wow, wow y. Yes, we never I never even brought it up, and I don't know why I bring it up, But when you said celebrat I was like, what else to be celebrated in October and then I realized eighteen years baby, So yeah, that's amazing. Congratulations, thank you, thank you. Ooh,

that's for another that I know. I know because you tesch celebrations. I have to put that out there, you know, I have to put that out there. Get my wife a shout out, you know, shout out to Tara, even though she gets on my nerves. We're not going to go there, Petri. Let's not We're just celebrating. That's what we can. Don't let me train them, you know. But I guess that was segreate quite nicely into what's your podcast called again here my Marriage? Hear my

Marriage? So in My Marriage, which is on Avenger's Radio and then on Sundays at four, Sundays at fourth. So yeah, any tips and you do by someone have you? Yeah, definitely tune into that. So yeah, big up to them. So, yeah, there's a lot happening in October. Mentioned that it's Black History Month, celebrating our sisters, but it's also World Menopause Month, and the eighteenth of October was World Menopause Day.

Now that kind of m word like many I suppose many conditions which you put conditions or things that people go through, especially women, are often not really spoken about. But I think I was looking at having looking at some stats around this and estimated one point five million women are going to are going through the menopause. It's something that women will no doubt go through at different stages.

It's very unique to people, but it has a major impact on people, and it's just definitely one of those things that really we don't speak enough about. I've had a few conversations this week with some of my friends, and you know, we've had various kinds of responses to it. You know, some people are more informed than others, as often as the case.

But I'm talking, I guessid do I want to reveal my age. I'm of an older age, but I remember saying to them, you know, as much as we're talking about it, and yes, awareness has been raised, it's not something that I was talking to anybody in my twenties or my thirties or even my forties. Dare I say that? Which, you know, until I've started to have my own experiences coming into this, that's become

at the forefront of my mind. But it has been a thing that you know, there's been a lot more awareness, and that's part of while we're talking about this today, because we do want to raise awareness and for the women that are listening and also the people that are around them as well, because as much as it's something that women go through, it impacts everybody as well, kind of impact everybody as well. So that's what we're going to

be talking about today. We've got a guest on with us today and we'll hear a little bit from her a bit later, but I'm going to welcome her now, So welcome Mavis to the show. Thank you so much for joining us, and we will hear a little bit more from you, but say hello to our listeners for us, Hello, thank you for having me so much. Thank you. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Wonderful,

wonderful. And before we speak to Maybe, so we're going to hear an interview another of our guests that we spoke to, or Zenya, spoke to Dr Bimo, So she's going to a little bit about her conversation. Then we're going to go into some music and then we'll hear the interview. So, yeah, thank you. We spoke. I think it was last week sometime in fact, we spoke on World Menopause Day Dr Sandra Bino. She is the medical director of the Women's Health or Women's Holistic Center, Barbatos.

She's also consultant obstitution gynocologists there's a big words got them out and certified menopause specialist. Yeah, we had a wonderful conversation. She came from a doctor's perspective, from a mother's perspective, from perspective of someone who has been through menopause herself, so full of knowledge. She trained in the UK and so

she has that overview, oversight, but she returned to the Caribbean. I think she just got a bit frustrated with the weather and she backed up, shopped and went to the Caribbean. But what she has done there is just introduced her Islanders to the concept of having a menopause clinic where women can talk about the issue, women can get support for the issue. Because, and as she mentions it in the actual interview, we don't talk enough. We

don't talk enough here, and we certainly don't talk enough about menopause. And she, you know, she's pioneering and blazing a trail here. So just kudos to her. And yeah, that's kind of in a nutshell what we shared a full sort of hour's worth of conversation. Cool. Okay, So looking forward to hearing that. We'll hear from Dr Bno and Zim. Yeah, greetings, Dr Viner. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I know you've got an extremely busy schedule. Thank

you for joining me on Talking Point. It's a program that we welcome do every week. We try to do every week on several topics, and menopause being the topic in question today. Happy well Menopause Day. To you, Thank you, to you, Thank you for inviting meer great. I know this conversation has been sort of weeks months in the making, and obviously nothing happens before it's time. And I think today is perfect. We're Menopause Day,

and we're in the midst of Menopause Awareness Month October. And of course this is a very tricky subject to maneuver for most women. It is an issue that needs to be on the front burner because it is impacting our so many and so many feel that they need to be silent about it. And that's unfortunate because the more we speak up, that's the brilliance of awareness days. The more we speak up, the more people are aware, the more that can be done for people who are struggling, and of course for people

who are supporting persons who are struggling struggling. So I mean khodoes to you and all those who sort of make this a prominent topic and who are in the on the front line as it were. So yeah, thank you for sitting with me today on this. Now I know you're Inbatos. I can. I can just about see the sun beating on the wall, and I'm extremely jealous. When I look up my window. It's rainy, it's gray, it's cold, and there and there it lies all of the reasons.

Yeah, Barbados is gorgeous. What can I say? Yea Barbatos is gorgeous. I am I'm jealous already. I'm sitting on the patio. If I turned the camera in the cee the ocean and I can hear the birds and it's beautiful, Oh lovely, lovely. Yes, this is this is This is Caribbean life. And I don't know why. Every time I look at the window and andys like these, I think, why enough, Why am I here? Tell me? Tell me somebody please, and I asked myself

that for many years there was no justifiable asser anymore. So my wife, I love the UK, but Barbados is where my heart is. All right. Well that brings us lastly to talking a little bit about you, where you hail from, perhaps as far back as where you were born, and sort of what led you into medicine, and then sort of finally what led you into menopause as your area of expertise. Tell our listeners a little bit, I give your condense Virgin. Yeah, so I grew up in.

I grew up in Barbadoes. I hope you can hear the Barbados. Yes, I can know I have a British accent. I grew up in. I grew grew up in Barbadoes. I I've always wanted to be adopted. That has always been my passion. I am always been fascinated by the human body. So I've always knew. When I was a very young girl, maybe ten eleven twelve, I always knew I wanted to be adopted. I didn't know what type of daughter I wanted to become as yet my new medicine

with my calling. So I went to the University of the rest in days in the Caribbean and I did my undergraduate training to become a medical doctor. During my undergraduate training, we rotate as part of the training program. You rotate through different specialties and you get to go to general surgery, pediatrics, upset to and gynecology, so you kind of get a feel for everything and you know kind of know where you belong. And I found out early where

I belong. So in my third year practice school, I did my first upset to its in gynecology rotation and I absolutely loved it. I love working with women. I love empowered women about their minds and bodies and spirit. I just I just loved it. And I quickly realized that this was that this was the field for me. You know, I would leave the hospital like one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning, and this was that this

was a specialty that I didn't mind being there for. So I had that, so I had the advantage of knowing exactly what I wanted to do when I finished my undergraduate degree. So I moved directly to the UK afterwards and I trained in South London Deanery. I did mine, not what I want to score your Completion CCT Certificate of Completion of Special Specialist Training. In two thousand and eleven, I got that certificate and I became a consultant in the

UK. I was actually a consultant in the NHS from twenty twelve to two tenty eighteen. So you just missed, frankfully, I had just missed the pandemic and perfectly time. I was a consultant that directly possible Kent And then, like I said, I have loved London. I've had a love hate relationship with London. But the weather that I cann't do anymore. Wh I'm a caribbeane. I'm a Caribe Okay, I just with the best in the world. I had everything going for me in lovely consultant, your lovely life

in London. But I just missed Barbadoes so much, so I moved back to Barbadoes. But I'm I'm digressing how I became involved in menopause When I became a consultant in the NHL. I realized from my secretary I was getting so many refrals about menopause or health. So I said to my secretary, why why am I getting all offers? I'm not going to sell to some of the other consultants, and she said to me, they don't like to see them, so you're you're the newbie consultant, so you're going to get

them, okay. And then I talked to myself, well, if I'm going to be seeing these women, I must educate myself and how to take care of them. So I started going on courses funded by the British Menopause Society. I started attendant clinics all over the UK. Some of my consultant colleagues were already menopause specialists, so I trained on the them and then fast forward years later, after my returned to Barbados, I did a certification to

become a menopause specialist with the North American Menopause Society in the US. So that was my journey to becoming a menopause specialist. And what I realized from looking after these women was menopause encompass not only your physical health, but your mental health and your spiritual health. And whereas that was what my colleagues were running away from, that was what I gravitated to. I liked the holistic way of looking after women. So that's my journey to become a menopause and

my journey back to Barbados. So when I moved back home, I opened my upside gechecology practice with a dedicated menopause clinic. Yes, and I think that's where we found you. I believe there was a fire circulating some point and I don't even remember why I have, but I mean, I believe in divine connections, and that fly came through to me and I thought,

well, let's see if we can get you on. And of course we were looking from an international perspective, not knowing then that you had UK experience and training, but you were just wondering, you know, is there is there any sort of links, similarities, et cetera. And there you go. You've started here. So you can speak to that, but also speak to what those similarities may be in the Caribbean for people who are struggling and sort of facing if not even struggling, facing money. Pause. So that's

actually I don't I don't like. I don't like the words to struggle, Yes, challenges, Yes, similarity, the similarities. What can I say? I find women in the UK are open mm hmmm, so whereas Caribbeane women tend to be more closed off. It's like I give you an example.

So in my UK me and a pause clinic, my client would present they would they would say, God, it's being very dry down there and sex is very painful, and they would present that quite early up in discussion, whereas in my Caribbeane clinic, regardless of ethnicity, they never tell me

that they had They ever tell me that I have to. This normally comes after maybe about twenty five minutes for the consultation because menopositical consultations and are longer than your average and consultation because you kind of you have to develop a wrap war and go on with your patient so that they're comfortable. So I find Caribbean women, even after you've developed that rapport, they still not share. You then have to kind of drag it from them to say, so,

how is sex and then they will say what what set? And I would say, well, it's is there something that's stopping you from upsets? And they will say, well, that's hurts so much I stopped two years ago. That's the difference between my Caribbean population and the UK population, the degree of openness, the degree of sharing. Yeah, I mean I'm only hadzing I guess I from the fact that because we are a very small community in the Caribbean, I know for other topics, and it may very well apply

to menopause. Because we're such a pat knit community, we're very reluctant to be open because we feel we're leaving our business outdoors. And I mean, obviously it doesn't apply in this sense specifically because of the confidentiality that you will share with them. But I don't know, We've just got that mindset that we just we don't want to share, we don't want to tell everything is

hunky dory, and then we deal with our stuff privately. And yeah, that's unfortunate because as I said at the top, we really do need to talk about these things because the only way we're going to get through it is if we are aware and we're informed, you know. So that's that's an interesting It's definitely a cultural thing, and I think that because it's not it's not even a color thing, because it's across the board with my different colorations

in Barbados. It is a cultural thing. It's ingrain and how we were raised in the Caribbean, and there needs to almost needs to be a paradigm shift. We need to talk more because we need to share with our children as well, you know. So yeah, there needs to be a paradigm

shift in how we communicate. Yes, and we'll touch on that as well, because not only our women dealing with menopause, but the people who support our women, so our brothers, our fathers, our uncles, our you know, employers, our children, our children, everybody needs to be on board because it's going to be a journey that we all need to be on board with. And so yes, that that's an excellent term analogy. Let's

peddle back for a second. And for the those who I can't imagine that there'll be any listener who doesn't know, but for the benefit of those who don't who may have false conceptions about what menopause is, because to be honest, that was me a few years ago. I'm aging nicely, but what exactly menopause? You don't really pay attention till it's that time, you know. And for me, menopause was something that happened to unhealthy women, old

women. Menopause was something that only happened to specific few and it didn't apply to all. And so there are several menopause is only a hot flash issue. You know, I didn't understand that menopause can impact so many aspects of your life. So let's let's debunk the myths. Let's talk honestly, what exactly is menopause and what symptoms does someone look out for to know that they are menopausal? Or is it perry menopausal? So let's let's talk. Let's

go back to basics and talk about that. So back to basics. So what is menopause? Menopause is a retrospective diagnosis, So the diagnosis of menopause can only be made after you've missed twelve consecutive periods. That's when you're doing menopausal. Okay, if you've made six periods and then your period come back, that's not menopause. It has to be twelve consecutive periods. Right.

Peri menopausal can start as early as in your mid to late thirties. Some women can start having symptoms they still having periods, so for that reason, they're peri menopausal. They may have skipped at least they may have skipped three periods six speriens. But like I said, if you haven't skipped twelve, you are still peri menopausal. So by definition, I can skip eleven, but if it comes on the twelfth month, I'm still you're still peri menopause.

And the reason that definition is quite important, Dan is because there's something called post menopause with bleeding, which has consequences. So whenever you see your gynecologist and you present your fleeting, they're going to be really insistent at pinning down when it was your last period. And there's a particular reason for that. If your last period was six months ago, we're not as worried as we are if your last period was thirteen months ago or fourteen months ago.

Okay, so that's important. So to recap perimenopause. You can have severe menopausal symptoms, but you're still having periods, and this can start as early as in your mid thirties menopause. Your periods have stopped in twelve months. Right now, what are the symptoms of menopause? I see a lot of women in the clinic saying menopause. I had no symptoms. I just sailed right through that. Now, menopause is a very individual thing. Every woman

experienced menopause in their own way. Menopause has emotional, physical, and mental components. So you have your physical manifestations, but whatever you're going through at that time of your menopause will impact on your physical symptoms. For example, a lot of women are cares for their elderly relatives. That is, especially with dementia et cetera. That is, that's very trying, and that impacts on that lady's menopausal health as well. So everyone's I share this to say

that everyone's perception and realities of their own menopause is individual to them. Some women's menopause manifests as hot flushes, night sweats, anxiety. Some women don't get that. Some women's menopause manifests as brain fag and ability to concentrate and and panic attacks. But it's still menopause, it's just different symptoms. Some women get decrease libido. Some women's libido increases, you know, and they come in the clinic, what's wrong with me? All of my friends libido

is decreasing, and I just want to upset all of the time. You know, you have to reassure them that there's nothing wrong with you, that's okay, to embrace your life. Right what at what point, Because you're saying it's after the fact that I then go to the GP or I then let the diagnosis. At what point do I go to the GP? Is it once I see these symptoms impacting my everyday life, because as you said, some people sail through, and I hope I sail through. But is

there such a thing as sailing completely through menopause? I deal with that first, Danyea for someone in there, it's such a thing as sailing true menopause. But so let's discuss what's happening in our bodies and menopause so we can get the best better understanding. So women's reproductive organs. We have a uters which carries the babies, and we have two ovaries on either side which produces

or hormone estrogen and progestogen. Now, the average age of menopause is fifty one, so around this time the ovariant functions start to decline and the overs start to produce the best estrogen. So this, this decline in estrogen, is what's responsible for our menopause. So basically what is happening is women are now living longer than they did in the nineteen hundred. Absolutely, in nineteen forty eight, we are living the way in the nineteen hundreds. Menopausal symptoms

wouldn't have been a huge problem because we weren't around. So basically what's happening. We're all living ovaries mm hm. We are living a longer life and we're outliving not always. So I always say to women, you have a choice to make if you're suffering, how do you want how do you choose to live your life the rest of the life that you have on deserve? Do you want to spend it living in anxiety and fear or do you want quality of life? And it's a choice I can't make for you as a

clinician. There are lots of programs about going on hormones, and I can't make that decision, but I guide my clients into making that. So. The average age of menopause is fifty one. However, not a myph is menopause can happen early. There's a premature or very insufficiency or premature or menopause as it used to be called. And this can happen my young decertetion. I just said this on a program this morning. My young detasi is seventeen.

Yes, so premature stuffs can happen, can happen as young as seventeen. I have another patient who I just interviewed recently, who is twenty six. So I have a colleagune that was twenty six twenty seven, and she's sort of blogged her journey through menopause, and we were like, huh again, you know, sort of busting that myth for preconceptions that we have that it's only for our elders though it's only for whenever, just for grandmothers.

That's what people think. You know, you're too young. So whenever I give seminaris of conferences, you know, I would say, what's your view on what a menopause a woman looks like? They would all say the grandmother, you know, And I would say, well, what if I say to you that I'm menopause it I'm on hormone therapy, you know, what

would you think? And they say never. But it's just the more we the more conversations we have like this, and the more we break the taboo, the more we're open to discussing, and I think more help we can give you two women in that. So to summarize, menopause can happen at any age. It's not an old woman's illness. It affects families. It doesn't only affect a woman, so it's not only a woman's problem. The average age is fifty one. Now it occurs when it occurs much early Black

women around the age of forty. You can't have premature over and insufficiency, which can happen as early as in your teenage. And at that point, if if you see that something is wrong, as you said, there's so many there are maybe symptoms, whether it's you know, brain fog or or you've got hot flushes or hot flushes, whatever it may be. And if you see that these symptoms are persisting, then go to the doctor and speak candidly about what you're going through so that you can be sort of advised.

Yeah, in the UK now we're advocating and every woman around the age of forty has a menopause consultation. I think that's a brilliant initiative. I'm trying to I'm trying to also initiate that here in the Caribbean because women don't know, they don't understand what's happening to their bodies. And if you don't understand, your may think that you're going crazy. I've had quite a few women

in my menopause clinic. Ooh, and therese are educated women. I remember I gave a seminar every year, every warm menopause, for War Menopause Months celebrations, we gave an annual semer done this is the last seven years, and I remember I gave it the top. You're not going mad, You're not going crazy, and you're not alone. That was the title of the segment. And after that I saw quite a few women and like I said, he'd a very educated woman who said to me, I was so scared

to come forward because I thought I was again all zimers. I thought I was going I was getting dementia. And they just kept it to themselves. I said, so you didn't tell your GP, didn't share anything anything. And like I said to you that it is a very educated women. So the very educated women are having this dilemma. I'm not sure what's happening to their bodies. What's happening to the women who were less educated, who don't

understand even less about their bodies. That's that's it, and we've said it before, and I think it's worth reiterating. That is importance of World Manipause's Day, Menopause Awareness Month again is to push these conversations and not only on you know, the nineteenth or the eighteenth of October, but to have these conversations constantly, and to engage with your GP, your counselors, your you know, your entire support network, just to ensure that you're getting the right

guidance and the right support through this phase of your life. And it is a phase of life, isn't it. I remember talking to my colleague and I was saying, you know what, women, I don't know if we just drew the shortest state. But as soon as we get our handle on one, so it's people just about getting underground this we've got, We've got enough thing to get a handle and as soon as we get handle that here it comes very minopause and then you know, it's just it just seems that

we just we're constantly shifting. The goal post is constantly moving. But it's important, as you said, to have the conversations, to have a good support network and then you know, get through it. As you said as well, about living your best life no matter what, there are tools to be able to do so. So that's me and I. We haven't this job for sure. The menopause years can be the most beautiful years of your

life. And I can testify to that. You know, I'm fifty two and this is the happiest, This is the healthiest of help because for me, this is how I look at menopause. It's a time of resetting. Mm hmm. It's the time of the cannot where are you in your life now? Right? No, it's the time of asking yourself, well, I now have less years ahead of me than I've had before. What do I want for the next phase of my life? And see what comes up for you. So it's a time of reflection and it can be the best

time for your lives. And that's what I try to teach women in the menopause, and it happens. I see women just this month, I've seen women just turn the corner and they're happy. They're so size, and they eating well. Some of them are hormones. Everyone is going hormones. But it's just so nice to see women turn their lives around because it's possible. But you have to choose to live. You have to make that choice to live. This choice far too as far as choice, far too many women

take. In the past. Menopause used to be known to any of the change of life. Far too many women take these three words literally. Everything must change, how they dress, how they feel, live, nothing needs to change, you know, Embrace life, carry on because with your life if you enjoyed it perfect And I think that brings us nicely into the next segment. We're talking about living our best lives even through menopause. What are some of the things that we've got to do to be able to do that?

Is it a whole lifestyle change? I know there's a lot of talk about hormonal therapy. What are some of the things that we must do as women to ensure that we navigate this space. Well, I'm in a really good position to answer that now because I've just this the next three moms, I'm interviewing some of my older pleasures, and I've just done an interview with one of my oldest patients who on hr She's eighty six year as a woman, she's she's been on HRT from age fifty one. Yeah, so that

I can't live they can't live without it. It's like a don't take it away, don't take it away. Yes, correct, So she's eighty six and her per video will be posted to our social media pages of Women's Holistic Health Center. Now, I've also interviewed a eighty two year old who's not on HRCH. So HRG is on a pre requisite. Just let me be clear. But from the interviews, what I'm seeing is a prerequisite is your family life. A strong family life, strong support system, and family life

doesn't have to be a husband. Women, get right, bug and I don't have a husband. I don't. You don't have a husband. That's okay. But you have friends, you have siblings, you have you know, use what you have. You have support network and good support network. So want of advice? Another lady said, don't take yourself so seriously. Don't take life so seriously. Have a good sense of have a good sense of humor and nutrition, be careful of what you put into your body.

Exercise my eighty six, your patient exercises three days a week with a personal trainer. I can't even get my fifty year old patient to do this. I'm shrinking in my seat. Are you guilty of that? Exercise is the best gift women can give themselves. And I'm not alver exaggerating when I say,

Wow, everything that happens to our bodies in menopause. Exercise can help with so during our menopause years, because of the decline and estrogen, we are more predisposed to dementia, We're more predisposed to cardiovascar disease, and we're pretty disposed to ask your prosis, exercise comeback or for your fields. So

I get a bit upset when women come into the clinic in this. You know they don't want hormones, they don't, but they don't want to do anything outside, and they don't want to exercise, they don't want to eat healthy. So it's all a choice. It's all a choice, and you get what you put into it. That's it. Do I sorry, Do I try the others first? You said, ho, hormonal therapy, it's not a prerequisite. But at what point do I then decide or would you

recommend that? Is it after I've tried sort of change of diet, change and exercise routine or whatever it may be, and I'm still seeing that I need additional help? At what point it's all your Yeah, it's all your choice and it all comes down to you. You can start it right away in the clinic. So how are we training in the UK? How dogs trained centered care. We are there to give the risk and the benefits, and you decide how you want to do this. And right blunt with my

patients, say you're coming. Your symptoms are very severe. You suffering if anxiety, palpitations, your heart is raising, you haven't panic attacks, you know functioning that work. You're having hot sweats and night sweats, and you're not sleeping. But these are very severe menopausal symptoms. So yes, I can start with lifestyle modifications, which is, if you take caffeine, stop that, If wine we can take that. Anything that's triggering your hot flushes

we can stop. We would also work on your smoking, your alcohol, your weight. These are the lifestyle changes that we can institute. We can also start herbs. There's black cohort, there is red clover. Their stage down. Hey, there also a route called back up, which is excellent. So these are all things that we can start. But I'd be very blunt and say that these only take you to a certain point. Okay, these will maybe just take the edge of your symptoms. Your body is losing

estrogen. What your body needs to feel better is estrogen. However, if you're reluctant to take estua, we can do all of these things, okay, we also get we also develop our exercise training program free where you can do this stuff which you should be exercising. You should have a program which incorperates cardio at least twice a week because in the menopausal age women focus on cardio a lot. But cardio is not what you need at this age and

the menopause. What you need is to build muscles, right because you need weights, So weights and resistance training and what's going to be best for you at this age group. But two often women just focus on carelier to treadmill spin. That's not going to help as much as those are the lifestyle. Those are the lifestyle modification that's come to the port of therapy. Hormone therapy before two thousand and two was widely available to all women in the UK and

the US. I can still remember in two thousand and two, I was an Assagho. I was a junior doctor in Dark Valley as well. Actually I was. I was a message then and we all got this leaflet from the NHR in the UK saying that we can no longer prescribe HRT because HRT has been proven to increase the risk of breast cancer, increase the risk of earlier vast disease, And it was just this horrible drug and just overnight switch

everything just switched off and inscriptions just went down. That was in two thousand and two, and this study was called a Woman's Health Initiative Study, and I remember it was splashed all across the times of the Guardian. I remember vividly HRT is this horrible drug. The study was so early because HRT increases the risk of heart attacks, et cetera. And I do remember there were few diehard star wars who continue their men and it's regardless. I specifically I

remember at King's not a white head. He just he continued his man and continued. So there were people who realized that this study was at the end all in real. But now twenty two years later, twenty one years later, this trial has walked back on nearly everything there said. The researchers have apologized for putting the so much fear into women and women yeah, and making

women fear such fear their own hormones. So it's been a journey trying to encourage women to say that HRD is not as bad as you talk it was. It's not what was sold to you. Okay. For instance, obesity carries more risk of breast cancer than char T. H Okay, having a glass of wine every night carries more risk than a churchy. Oh dear, Yes, And there there's the there's so many myths about hr T. So

char T is estrogen, progestogen, and testosterone. You may not need a tree, okay, if you don't have a uterist, you just need a estrogen unless you have indometrial in no matriosis history of indometriosis, then you will need progestogen as well. Now, the benefits of estrogen only therapy, if believe it or not, estrogen only therapy has been shown to decrease your risk of breast cancer, not increase your risk of breast cancer. But women don't

know switch what was told. Women don't know that, so women and then women are just being told by their daughters, no, you're not having that, So they're not they're not being given a discussion. What I say to women is, when you go to your health care practitioner, do your research and go to have a conversation. Don't I anyone just shut you down. You were there to advocate for yourself when advocate for what you want. If

the doctors against the HRT, let them tell you why. And if you want the hr T and they're not willing to give it to you, they must refer you to someone else who will be able to prescribe it. It's not his choice or her choice. Is new choice. I'm new to this. What are some of the reservations about HRT? Why would some doctors not want to prescribe? Is it what you've listed before that the associations that have

now been overturned? Still is that still what causes socisely? Okay, precisely, it's lack of education, because you have to remember how you introduced me and how I told you I got into menopause. Doctors get very little teaching and training about menopause and medical school or in the postgraduate training. I mean now in the UK there is a special skills module on menopause that is new. Back before I left, in order to be a menopause specialist, we

had to go to the British Menopause Society. But menopause is now so that has changed in the UK, and we're now in the process of also changing that in Barbados, so that we have more teaching about menopause. Now, remind remind me of the question I'm asking, what are the drowbacks of that some doctors start that's will hesitant, so, lack of due so. And I started sharing with you that lack of training medical school, lack of training

the postgraduate program. Doctors are not comfortable having this discussion because they themselves are not educated about it enough to have this discussion with you. So the Women's Health Initiative study not only disadvantage all of those women back then, it also disadvantaged a cohort of doctors who knew nothing about menopause training, and those the

doctors you're seeing now. It's unfortunate, yes, and these doctors are still also holding on to this study from two thousand and two without looking at your current data, which is saying no harch Espectually, the way that we give it trans thermal estrogen micronize oral progestogen, which is body identical, identical structure to the hormones in your body is essentially there is a small risk of bread

breast cancer with estrogen and progestogen therapy. However, it's the progestogen that's important in that risk, and this newer where it's not new anymore, but micronize or progestogen has been shown to have less of a risk of breast cancer as compared to the oldest synthetic progestogens such as liken, Ittisterol, et cetera.

Right, So I guess the message here is, as you've said, do the research, know the pros, know the cons or ask make sure you get those details from your doctors, particularly a doctor who's hesitant in prescribing that for you, so you're not risks and you step into that with knowledge, wisdom, and if you and if you I find like on social media, size I see who I'm saying. I went to my GP, but and I'm suffering with that very depredicating symptoms and my GP didn't give me anything.

And don't let it end there. Know your body, know how you're feeling, and if you're suffering, you seek help. I run a virtual clinic. There's so many other The pandemic has been horrible, but it's shown us that we can do claims different. So the the other menopauseist who run a virtual clinic but seek help, don't let it stop at that person telling you no, okay, excellent we're gonna share together. We've got a few moments I'm sure with you we're gonna talk about because we've we've hinted at it.

We've spoken about the impact of menopause on caliovascila health. We've spoken about it and terms of anxiety and depression and so forth. So we understand that menopause can impact the whole body the mind. Are there sort of ways around or support structures that we can put in place for our women who are struggling? Because I'm even thinking, and I know we talked about it offline, how

do family members, friends, husbands, brothers. I mean, this is this is for everyone, isn't it not just It's not just a woman's this year. It's everyone's this year. How can they support a woman who is going through this and we'll be going through this and these changes in so many different aspects of their lives. What I'm going to stay then, yet, that it is not only support for the woman, is also support for children.

Okay, so I share a personal a personal story. I remember when I first started my perimenapology journey, I had hot flushes, yes, but my worst symptoms were the mood swings and my mood swings were horrible. But I say mood swings, I may you go from zero to one hundred, you go from just calm to just angry, and I may really angry. And I recall driving home one day with my son and it was like having

an outer body experienced. My son did something I gid you know that it was Yes, it annoyed me, but on the grand scheme of things, it wasn't. It wasn't no. And I watched myself just got him, and it was as if I was watching my and I couldn't stop, and it was going at him and angry until I see tears streaming down my son's face, and I'm watching myself thinking who is this person? Who am I become? Wow, And that is what happens to us. We don't recognize

the women we become. So you say support for the women, but I also say support for the families, because you can imagine what my son was feeling. I had to go to him afterwards and say, you know, let me just have me enough time. I'm so sorry, just bear with me. And this was this was probably the start of my hormone therapy journey because I couldn't have my son living with this person. That's not fair to him. It's not fair to me. So whomen come to the clinic and

they say, I'm not myself. I feel dead inside. I don't recognize myself. I can't function at work. I'm in a meeting and I'm forgetting things. I'm getting anxious over little things. You know, I used to be able to do this job before even thinking, and now it's so challenged. Don't lose your life if over this, recognize what it is, so that that would be that that would be my message to the woman to seek help, but also then get help. Get help. So seek help for

seek help for themselves. Okay by seeing the menopause, especially for your kynecologists or your GP. But also talk to your husband. Talk communications. See when my when my patients come the clinic and they say, my libido has decreased, For example, I don't feel like I haven't said I don't know how to tell my husband. I would say to speak to your husband. Something has changed. Plainly, you don't feel like yourself anymore, but you're

working on it because you must understand how he must feel as well. This is really not knowing yes, so have that conversation. Communicate your husband or your partner can only support once you communicate. That's and how if we flip the script now and we're talking to those husbands and those people are supporting, what do we what do we say to them? Because obviously, as we've seen, some women will not speak up, and we're hoping to change the

narrative there. But if you see a difference, so you recognize the difference, what do you do as a partner, as a child, as someone who's in their corner? So I get this, I get this question posed differently so I would when I give. When I give, I mean seminars, the women give me questions. When I give conferences to men. Women write write things that they want men to know that they don't want to tell them. So call me, please, what was that I missed that?

Sorry I'm saying, I'll tell honey, Honey, go and talk about to binal for me. Yes, she'll tell you what's going on with me. Yes, they don't want it, they don't want to communicate, but I'll tell you something interesting. I do like to give conferences to men because I like to know their perspectives. And I remember one man saying to me, he said, I wasn't going to come to this letter today. It was put on by his workplace, he said, because it was about menopause,

but it was mandatory, so I had to come. But I'm so happy I came because now I have a better understanding about what my wife is going through. So I would encourage men to go to menopause conferences. Read up on what your wife is going first. Try to understand what's happening to her

body so you can understand, so you can understand her. I also had a gentleman say, you know, my wife wouldn't say that sets is hurting, but I can tell, and my heart breaks when I can feel I know she's not enjoying this, but I don't know what to do, you know, So men hurt as well as women. We see we think men don't have emotions, but they have emotions, and they feel and they hurt and they care about it and they don't like the suffering. So she's not

saying to him that says her, he's picked up. So for men in that case, I've had many make appointments for their wives and my menopause, I've had and ring up and say, my wife needs to see you, so you can recognize the symptoms in your wife and you can speak to her

and encourage her to make an appointment to seek help. I guess that that extends to anyone who is working with, living with someone who is going through menopause, because that would be my next question, And you've hinted that at that just a moment ago in that this colleague had to go to a mandatory menopause session. What arell workplaces to do about this? Is it much of the same put on these conferences, putting on these discussions and making it mandatory

that all men go as well? Yes, I think so. I think that helps because I do really that man stands out in my heads. And yet because I remember his words, I was going to come today, and that's the problem. They don't show up at the conferences, and he's right honest about it. I was not going to come today. But then his next words were, but I'm so happy I can. So what workplaces can help by making it mandatory? And they can also help I having a workplace

menopause champion, who you choose? This person needs to be approachable that people feel that they can go to It makes no sense to having the most unapproachable. That is the purpose, right, So you need you need to have a person that people can feel is their person at work, so you know that person who's going to menopause is comfortable to say, you know, I had I've been having so many panic attacks recently. Maybe can I am more

comfortable working from home? Can I work from home maybe three times a week, come into the office twice a week? I feel more comfortable. You know, you don't want to lose women from the workforce because of menopause. And women shouldn't be made to feel that because they passed their reproductive years that they can no longer contribute in a meaningful way to the workplace or society.

So we need to look after our women better. Wonderful. Have you been asked to do anything within the workforce yourself or are you able to do? Yes? Virtual sessions? Yes? Well, oh yes I do. I do quite a lot, not only in Barbados, throughout the Caribbean. And yeah, we're having more conversations about menopause and people are becoming more aware,

which is a good thing. The more conversations like this that we can have, the better it is for women right working up then with you telling me how I as a employer as a supporter of someone with menopause, or if I did say someone who is perry menopausal, how do I get in touch with you? Because you're based in Barbados, but you were saying that you offer virtual assistance. How do we get in touch or can we get in touch with you? Yes? We can. So I'm based in Barbadis,

but I'm also registered with the General Medical CONVERSLAN in the UK. I'm on a specialist registerday as well as the specialist in Badis. So I do have a virtue or menopause planic from my UK patients and for patients throughout the Caribbean. So you can get in touch with the center at the Woman's Holistic Health Center. We have a Facebook page and we have an Instagram page and all of the details are there. You can just simply book the Virtue Clinic.

Can I just say that your assistant is wonderful, She's been patient's she's been amazing. It's been hard to pin you down, but she's been working with me, with you. When I think we've made it happen, and I want to just say Khodos to her. Thank you. So she is amazing, She's she's my rock. We all need one. I can tell you. I can tell and then then tell me a little bit about the conference that you have. It's seventh, okay, ye're running. It happens on

Saturdays. Tell me it happens, happens on the twenty eight. So I wish, I wish I could show you a picture yourself. Even my center is called a Women's Holistic health Center. So we are located have you ever been to Barbadisenia? Have just landed skirted around, but I haven't really seen it in depth, So yes, it's okay visits, so tell me tell me how I can. So we're located by the Garrison Savannah and it is just a beautiful, amazing expanse of property and we're holding it on the moon

at night where there's a full moon. There's going to be outdoors. And we have a band performing just just just no big band, sorry I say band, but live entertainment. Someone's singing and we usually have because I said that I focus on the holistic way of looking after a woman. We have nutrition is presenting and how you should eating your menopause years. We have an

exercise especialist about the type of exercises. We have a sessional mindful eating, we have a session of mindful sex, we have a session what else do we have on meditation? And in touch on that, I'm going to vary. In fact, I can't end before touching on that. Looking at yourself as a female, you must feed your spirit, and you can feed your spirit. You want two ways for it and meditation, whichever you choose. Whether you choose you want to booth, you do need to have one or

both. But you do need to have some way of nurturing that spirit. Because you asked me, Zani, how what is it? How? What would I recommend to age gracefully? And that is fivoital. So we're going to have We're going to have some meditation exercises. Yes, and sharing what's also important. Lots of women come and share their stories, and women had to learn a lot through share. We overcome by the word of our testimonies,

and that's that's crucial. I can tell I can see that you've been through it and you've conquered it, and you've survived and you're doing well on the other side of me. So I tend to. And also you can help me, you can help me across. So it's very important that we hear from each other on that. How how did it start? It's seven years running? You say, how did it? How did it start?

Come about thirty when I first moved back here. So when I first moved back so when I left the UK, I don't know if you remember. Back in two tenty fifteen, menopause is becoming quite topical. The British Menopause Society was really coming out. The National Institute of clin Collectcellence issued guidelines on menopause, so there was like a menopause revolution going on. So when I left the UK and I came to Barbados, menopause wasn't very topical at that

point. So I thought, you know what I saw how my patients in the UK appreciated menopauslic how they embrace the a charity and just a new way of living. I thought that would be a beautiful gift to bring to Caribbean women. So I started it as a way of raising awareness. We started out in a small room in a hotel with thirty women. That was our first one thirty women, and that was in twenty seventeen, and last year we had over two hundred. Oh amazing, yes, amazing. So it's

and then I help women's women asking can we do it virtually? Can they see it virtually? But we haven't. We haven't progressed to my next quession. Maybe next year. We haven't gone to that point just yet. Well, yeah, well keep us in the note I'm going to share again.

It's Women's Holistic Health Center. It's all one word two four six at gmail dot com if you want to contact the doctor and are getting additional information, and she's also pointed you towards her Instagram and Facebook pages, so if you want more information, feel free to reach out. I am looking forward to a virtual invite at some point, the saying, but it's been a wonderful speaking to you. I know you're quite busy. You said you had an

interview or radio session earlier. You've got one later, so I don't want to keep you any longer. Thank you so so much, and all the very best to you and the work, the amazing work that you're doing in this field. You're welcome. Before I go, I just remembered one more minute, yes, yes, yes, I just remembered we I didn't think about it because we run our first menopause support group and it was person. It was sorry I'm launching was it was in person? So I run it

out the clinic and it was only in person. But I am piloting running the menopause support virtually. Right. So this is eight sension group. It's a mind body medicine group, and it teaches you ways to strategies before so we look at who you are as a person, how you want to evolved, and how you're going to get there, and we teach you ways to how to get there and cope. So and again to find out more about that, is it that we look for your your social handles that it's all

on the social pages. Yes, perfect, anything else you want to add just before we know? No, So again, enjoy enjoy the rest of the day. Oh my gosh, bob it yeah looking out the window again, I don't even know what doing, but yes, enjoy the rest of

your day. Enjoy the rest of your month of celebrations. And I hope that your event goes well, to success, and we look forward, as we said, to a virtual invite at some point and to having you back if you might to approp Thank you, gratitude, thank you, no worries, take care, all the best, go bye. Yeah. So we heard from Dr Bino there as I said, a full length conversation about the issues that surround menopause, the women who go through menopause and the people who

support them. For me, from that interview, I took away that menopause doesn't happen at fifty five, it doesn't happen at sixty. Menopause can happen

quite early for women. I have a friend in fact, and this conversation just sort of jogged my memory because she's got a whole Instagram social media campaign going because she is only thirty something and she has been through menopause, so you know, she's talking about that journey, and it just for me reminded me that, yeah, it's not for the fifty something year old, it's not for the sixty something year old. It's not for the age and the

old. It happens to even the young, and it happens sometimes before we expect. So so you know, we need to have these conversations. And Angelie, you mentioned that at the very top twenty year olds, you know, young women, young men, everyone, we need to have the conversation. We need to have the conversation early so that we're doing the research so that we're prepared to either go through and go through it gracefully or support the

women who are That's what I drew from that conversation. And there's lots to learn, there's lots to know, so we really have to do our due diligence. Yeah, And I think the key thing for me from that as well is the fact that actually there is still I mean, I think it's getting better, and you know whatever, every conversation that we have and people who are working in the field, people are still still quite reluctant to talk about things. There is an element it feels like an element of shame.

It feels like an element of embarrassment. I think the whole idea around menstruation anyway, I think there is a lot of stigma around that, even though it's a completely natural, natural process that we've can go through. It's not something that you know, we should be hiding. But there's a lot linked with that, and I think that then just feeds into where we go with

the menopause as well. And you know, it was quite interesting her saying that over She's worked in the UK and we're a bit more open over here, but in the Caribbean they don't really want to have the conversation. And I can imagine that from a cultural perspective that actually can that's like an added

layer to that, you know. And then you kind of think in some cultures where women may speak about these things months themselves, but the men in their lives and possibly other people don't necessarily recognize it and understand and what comes with that as well, So it can be real you don't want to know. I could imagine in some cultures, in some hole, the men don't

really want to know. Yeah, the funds don't really care. It's not it's not anything to do with them, until some you know, the woman flies off the handle or something like that, like oh wait, wait a bitte. Yeah, And I think also it's also about how people where they take it seriously enough as well. You know, I'm sad to say that, you know, I've had conversations with people I'm not even saying it's men, men and women as well, where sometimes you know, things around periods

or maybe it's menopause are seen as excuses for not doing something. You know, and it's a reason why oh yeah, you're you're and other things then become You can become labeled, you could be seen as lazy, or you can't keep it together, you're not resilient enough. So I just know there's

all of those things that will come with that. And I think, you know, when we speak to Mavis as well, you know, in her experience of working with the women who are going through this as well, I think we're gonna get some good insights on that sort of say, actually, there's a lot of stigma that we need to kind of debunk. Really we kind of want so if we want to be talking about this, it's a

natural thing. People women are going to go through this, you know, each should be something that we talk about and it shouldn't be anything to be embarrassed about. So so yeah, so that was a really it was a really interesting, insightful conversation. So did youth Stretch. No. I did not have a chance to listen to it yet. Okay, I admit I

haven't. But what you guys are talking about is got me scared because I didn't realize something because you know, I got I got my wife, and I got two girls, you know, one has started her menstre and the other one is close to at some point, you know, when she gets a little older. She's only nine, but you know you can start any time. And I'm thinking ook, and my wife already, so I'm thinking, okay, so my wife is going through metro cycles now, which that

week is I stay away from? And now I have two other girls that I have to stay away from. Those two so like me and my son are gonna be like hold up in a room. You know, I'm not trying to be funny. I'm just saying because you know, because like you know, it's like no matter what. Sometimes you know, the pain, you know, like like oh the pain me so much pain, And I'm like, okay, what can I do? Nothing? Okay, well just go do nothing over there. So you know, I'm not see. But

then what you guys are talking about, wait a minute. So after they that ends, then they go to metoplause, and you were saying something about you know they go off you you can't some women kind of go off the handle or you know, like just you know, so I have to I have to worry about that now coming up. Indeed, be funny, serious, smiling, I know, and I'm just saying that is why these conversations are so critical, because I need some tips. The more you know there

you go. The more you know, the less you will be because well I'm like, oh, I needn't make enough money. I can vacation during the time or something. Okay, So this seguy is nicely into our next part where this is where we're going to bring in our second guest, Mayvis Maxwell don Cole. So yeah, because again it's quite interesting Pedro that you

will say that, because I guess raising awareness. Having the conversation is really about, you know, people having an understanding and then look in at the ways how we can kind of support each other. So I'm going to bring Mavis in now. So Mayvis, thank you again for joining us and having this conversation. No doubt you'll probably smiling at some of the things you've been hearing. Well, I want to smack it's crazy, No, Pedro,

not at all. I'm laughing because that's exactly how i'd expect men to be feeling. Yes, yeah, I mean I tell you how I feel, and that's how I feel. What we want. We need more men, to be honest. I'm a mother of two boys. I'm the queen in my house and I'm their first experience of a woman going through menopause. Perimenopause, so we are all learning through this journey to catch cool. Well, I'm glad you said that because I don't want people to think I'm being insensitive.

I'm not really being insensitive. I'm just how I feel conversations. So yeah, I'm being and how I feel like I'm scared. I'm like, just like, what am I going to do? Hopefully by the time we've you've had more knowledge, you won't be scared. That's the point. That's that's our aim, that's the point of this a talking point. Cool So maybe telling a little bit about yourself and I guess what's your links with menopause.

But you mentioned a little bit of their your own experience, but tell us a little bit about you know yourself and the work that you are currently doing. I am a certified life coach, did that in lockdown. Currently. My day job is a support manager, so getting people into work. And I hit perimenopause April fifteenth this year. Wow, it came as a big shock. Not to my doctor though, I mean I've got a great doctor, so she was very much aware of what's going on with my body

and my symptoms. I think I was just not aware of what's going on. And I'll start from the beginning. There are times where things were dark. When we say dark, I mean black. Your whole being, your whole attitude to life, your whole connection with everyone is dark. And as women were very good at masking things, and I particularly was masking how I was feeling different in my energy, in my mood, and what I wanted

to achieve and what I wanted to do, just connecting with people. And very sadly, I lost my sister in law unexpectedly November last year, and thank you, thank you. That same day she passed away, I got the phone called that my university friend, college friend had also passed away unexpectedly.

So that was November last year. If you can imagine going through sorrow, going through morning in a very dark place, not really able to connect or move forward in life, but still did my day job, had no complaints, My day job was great, my clients were happy, and went through the funeral process and everything, and come March I was like, no, something's still not right. I'm still not moving forward. Nothing gives me joy. I've got two amazing boys and I'm an amazing supportive husband, and

I will still not feel enjoy So I went to the doctor. You cannot really there is no test for menopause, and I'm sure the doctor said that before. However, there are There's called a symptom Menopause Symptoms Checker, which had I known, I would use it and I'd recommend it to anyone and everyone now that look it up online Menopause Symptoms Checker. There is a list of things you can tick, things like mood, swings, black or sleep, motivation, energy and as so, once you have an idea of what

your symptoms are, that can help towards going to doctor. But for me, I went to doctors blaming what was happening. She looked on my levels and she said, maybe you're perimenopause. I was like, nah, no, no, of course not nowhere. I'm not fifty to may come on, No, no, no no, And She's like, to be honest, you've kind of been for about a year and a half. But obviously I've also got living with her lung condition. That has been the focus of

me progressing through life. And what I what I would say was the passing of my system and all my friend is astibated and brought it forward, and I'm glad it did, because I think I kept masking it for too long. I did take the choose to go on to HRT to try it out because I wasn't happy. I was down and I didn't like that feeling. All I can say is like this miserable being inside you that just pulls you down when you should be joyful. You're still brought down no matter how you

try. And from there I started to talk to other women. My mother never spoke to me about it. She had an operation that meant she wouldn't. She didn't get it, so she had nothing to say. My aunt's never spoke about it. No one spoke to me about menopause. I've gone out and done my own research, and what I'm now doing is talking to other women. I'm being honest about my experience. If we are honest, you are open the door for somebody else. I'm going to say, I

too, am going through this. I resonate with you. What you just said is exactly how I've been feeling. And since I've started to do that, I am beginning to hear more women's stories and more women coming out and saying that's what happened to me or X y Z, and how did I cope with it? What did I do to manage it? There are all sorts. There are many things out there that we can use and take to support the menopause. It doesn't have to be medically induced. There is a

book I'm currently reading about the natural way. It's called The Natural Menopause Method by A. Karen Newby, talking about natural ways of doing it because a lot of women want the natural way of managing the menopause. At work, I am now a facilitator for the Menopause Peer Group. I put my hand up. I'm not medically certified. I don't know you know where is zactly to go? But I can guide my peers at work and my friends and

family that are around me where to go and look what to do? Someone said to me just two days ago, Oh I think I am perimenopause. What do I do? First of all, you go to a GP. You need to have a GP that has menopause training because not all of them

have to do the training. They don't have to do the training. So it's key to ask have you made menopause trained or can I have a menopause specialist or guynic collegist that's there to talk to about the symptoms, because what we don't want is so many women being misdiagnosed, being told noah, it's anxiety or depression x X y z, and not actually focusing on the problem with the situation being the menopause itself. Interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting.

Thank you so much for sharing that. And you know, again, it's interesting that you're saying that, you know, you're starting to you're starting to have that conversation with women and more and more women and then talking and saying, yes, I relate for you. You said that you're you know, you didn't nobody spoke to you about it. Again, did you know anything about the menopause beforehand? Obviously you said you went to the doctors. I mean, were you kind of a is it something that you thought about

before it kind of happened for you? My view, I thought about it, Gosh, I think about forty five because I remember putting on my Facebook page let's talk about menopause, and a friend's side to put message me why m M, And I said why not we talk about women's health. We're talking to our young girls about women's health, the menstrual cycle, the periods, and the boys. We need to talk about menopause. Yeah, really,

it's part of the journey of our life. And the more we acknowledge and the more knowledge we are given an education that is given around the menopause, the easier it's going to be for our men and our boys and for us women as a whole. Right, the first story one woman said to me was she luckily she's gone through it now. And I know she won't mind. I'm not going to mention her name, but I know she won't mind me saying her story. She was misdiagnosed depression anxiety and was given those

tablets. It was so bad for her her situation. She asked a friend to come and live in her house so that she could keep an eye on her and her children. She took time out of work so that she could just go out as soon as the children were at school and go for long walks and not be left at home on her own. But she's gone through it, she's gone, she's at the other side. But two and a half years of going through that because of your mis diagnosed. Now that we're

talking, she's like, those are the symptoms I had. Yeah, that makes sense. These were the moods I was receiving. These were how I was feeling, you know, the energy to get up in the morning, to do anything, the energy to smile at people, or even to go out. I would always have a reason why I wasn't going Now, yeah, and I love going out. I'm a sociable person, but I was going through something. I was like, no, I don't want to be near people. Maybes, Can I ask you a question? You said that

you went to the doctor and the doctor said you were very menopauthal. Yeah, how because in the conversation I had with doctor Baiano, she says, it's once you have not seen or had period for twelve months, that's the ment. That's when you determined that someone's menopausal or Perry is a it's a precursor to that. So how is it a gap of a certain number of months that determines Perry? Is it a list of a significant number of symptoms

what determines Perry menopausal? There are various symptoms. Is there a change? I think there is? For many people they think you know you're losing you're what's the word, No, what's the thing? I was going to say, your energy like of sleep. For me, it was like a sleep because I would be up till two three in the morning, be up again at seven. It was lack of energy to do anything. I was getting

migraines a lot more than normal, and just everything was a drag. And my doctors known me before my boys, so she has always seen this upbeat patient come in and suddenly I'm dragging my feet. Oh doctor, this, this, this, this, this, and she could see the pattern. But at the same time, I wasn't predominantly giving as much of the symptoms. I mean, one of the symptoms people say menopause is the hot flushes, right. I get it once in a while, literally very minuscule amount

of it. I think for me, the hot flush came when I was at three o'clock in the morning. It'll be too hot and I'd have to literally robe myself because it was so hot. But I'm known women who are sitting in front of you and just dreaded ripping. Yeah, menopause. Everyone's journey is individual. So I don't want to say to you there is this there is. Yes, there are certain signs to check out for like if you go to the if you look at the menopause symptom, it says low

mood, mood swings, irritable. Oh my goodness, the least thing was irritating. Irritating me, the least thing snappy, tearful. You're sitting there watching something and then suddenly you're crying or my husband said something nothing to upset me, and I mean tears and he's like what, Yeah, And even I was asking my stuff, what's going on? You know, there are so many, you know, difficults. I've talked about difficulty my going pop flash and night sweats. Muscle pain that's the other one. Yeah, and

they talk about things like joint pain as well. Because I was looking, there's been about some unusual things even and I think I've I have pre experienced for these as well, where your skin really my skin really itches, it feels that something is crawling on it. Definitely the joint pain and the muscle cramps, that kind of thing. And again something just put that down to, you know, just aches and pains you're getting older. But actually you

said, sometimes enough of those symptoms come to in a cluster. Then it's time to go see your doctor. And see going to see your doctor and just have the conversation like this said. There is no real test, but they can check your hormone levels. I believe, okay to be all to determine. Yes, sometimes it could be just our process of aging. And like you meant earlier menopause, perimenopause, you can start at early as thirty. Yeah, yeah, no longer. It's not the old people's illness,

as I was once told. Indeed, I have a question. Go ahead, Patrick, go ahead. I have a question. Because you said your husband would just say something and you would just start crying. So I know we're kind of jumping ahead, but because it just popped in my head, like how how has your husband and your two boys? How old are your boys? Of your mind saying seventeen and thirteen? Oh wow, so they've okay, see they're not even they're teenagers. How have they adjusted amazingly?

You know what? I am so blessed. I am so blessed because even I wouldn't live with me. Well that's how I'm asking, because I'm like, I'm thinking, like, Lord, have mercy. I'm trying to think like Okay, what how do I do I just say nothing? Do I walk away? Do I just be comforting? Do I just you know, don't don't Like I have thick skin, so you know, it's not like it's going to affect my wife is And I say this to my wife is

emotional already as it is, so I'm used to it. That's she's from the South, She's from Alabama, so she's just got I call my little Southern firecracker. So that's what I called a firecracker. I call it the Southern firecracker from Yeah. But so that's what I was I was just wondering, how you know, like has been hard for them or do you see them being more mindful to you because of they know that you're going through what

you're going through they have it's been all of that. Well, my husband, when the doctor said I think you need to go, I would suggest maybe we try HRT. As soon as I walked out, got in the car, text him. Doctor's given me HRT reason perimenopause. Sent him a link. Please read this when you get home. Let's have a conversation.

There you go and communication and he read and we talked about it and I explained, you know, I'm looking at the symptom checker and I've ticked it and actually now there are several things that are clicking in place that I can be snappy. I'm in emotional and the children say, oh, where's our mum gone. She's never seems happy. Everything we seem to do upsets her. Now what's going on to me? And my husband talked a lot and through that we then said, look, let's call the boys in. And

we call the boys over and I said, Mum's perimenopause. This is what it means, this is what it's This is a journey I'm going through. There will be days that are good days, I call it, and there are days that are just Plathora plateau, and there are down days. But what I want you to all know is I still love you unconditionally and we will get through this. If you will help me get through it, excuse

me. Then I've sent the boys links to read on it, and they are very mindful of if I'm having a bad day, which a couple of weeks back, sorry, I had my husband gone up to work, called him and spoke to him at the weekend, and then I finished a call and I just felt really weak and dark, really sad, all of a sudden, out of nowhere. Nothing my husband has said saddened me. Nothing in that conversation. And I said to the boys, look, i just need to go into my room for a bit. I'm going to close the

door. I'm switching off my phone. If anyone calls, I'm not here, and if it's an emergency, you can wake me up, but just leave me alone for a while. They did. They understood because by allowing me to have that hour, you know, two hours on my own to just sleep off whatever was happening to my body. I came out right, what's the what have you got homework done? Do you need this? Do you need that? They're very aware when my mood goes up and down.

And that's the blessing I can have is their understanding about it. And I say it to men, now, if you see your partner is changing in their mannerism, in anything, there behavior have the conversation. And women be more open to our partners, our male partners, because it's so important that they are let into this journey, because it's a journey they're going to go

through together. It's not like my own, it's our journey. I like that just saying that because I think in general, as couples or partners, we don't communicate what's going on in our lives. I like that you said that that you did that, and that you called the boys and then explain it to them because we I think sometimes as a ventist I'm talking about from

my experience, we don't like to talk about things. We just or Mimi's okay, she's just having a bad day, but we don't say why, and so then the child's like, okay, what's that's that's what a bad day is. So now they think, okay, when I have a bad day, the act fact same way. So they act, they imitate what we do. But if they understand what we're why we're doing what we do,

then they can better adjust. Because children nowadays specially are much more resilient and much more understanding of what we're going through as parents than you know. So I like I like that you said that, you said that that your committed, because that's the key word it is educating. We all need educating

more. I like that you have not You've not underestimated that the young your young boys, your sons, can be part of the journey that they will be able to understand and and have compassion for you, because sometimes we think they're too young to include them, they won't understand or you know, it's it's it's it's not children, it's not a child's it's your place, you know. But this is famous word, this is business, that's it.

But yeah, we have to include them in the conversation, whether you sort of you know, change the wedding or whatever it is to get the point across. But of course we can have a conversation with them because, as you said, maybe they are part of the journey. They are, well, they're still under your roof together. They've got to help understand what you're going through. It's not fair. And I think that goes back to why I maybe never knew much about it as a young person going up because it's

adult conversation. That's adult thing. But is it really They've been taught life education, sex education in schools. I'm now advocating they need to even add the topic of menopause in there so to raise awareness. Don't get to my age get hit by perimenopause. And now I'm reading every little nook and cranny and understanding more, which is fine because actually now that is my life's purpose is to advocate for more women and men as a whole world. Let's understand

what perimenopause, menopause is all about. It's not an illness. It's part of the woman lot. I just had a question. I had another question that papped in my head. So you you started perimenopause, yes, so does it turn into full blown menopause at some point or I just thought about like when you because you kept saying perimenopause. So like menopause as a word

is what we use to as a general word for the perimenopause. So you start at perimenopause, and the menopause is when you've not had a period, gotcha. Okay, yeah, after twelve months or something I think as the umbrella of it all. Okay, does that make sense? Yeah, I'm trying to, Like I said, I'm I don't know, so I'm information so you know, I want to know for future because you know, I

know I'm be dealing with it soon. So at some point, So I don't want to get away with my wife's age, but you know, I

know I'm going to be dealing with it at some point. So it's good to know that have an idea, you know, you know so absolutely, and we get talking about it now, So like people that are listening can if you can, start talking about it now because this is what we're talking talking about it now, so that when it does happen, you already kind of have a foot in the door where you kind of know this was good. We knew that this was going to happen. We can communicate, we

can talk so absolutely. So it brings me also nice into thinking about So you've talked about a couple of things that could be helpful. What kind of things are helpful? Are there any kind of particular whether it's we talk. You know, the word self care is a bit of a buzzword these days, but you know, in big proponent of that, are there any particular things that are going to be really helpful for dealing with perimenopause or menopause or

symptoms that women have. No, I know, everybody's unique, so I think things are going to be very different for each person. But what kind of things have you found either been helpful for yourself or have been helpful for women that you've spoken to? You've mentioned about going for long walks, and we're taking a break from things. Is there anything else I think from the biggest thing has revaluate my lifestyle. I didn't sleep properly. I have really

bad sleep health. Now by ten ten thirty everything is off. If I can't sleep, I read and then fall asleep, wake up and try and be active, whether it's a thirty minute exercise or a thirty minute walk around my area. It's review how I eat, what I eat, my alcohol intake. It's you know what I say, review your lifestyle properly, like

really address what you eat when you eat. Had I known about done my research a bit more beforehand, I think I would have looked at my lifestyle two years before it, because then I would have generally a consistent pattern of life in my behavior of my lifestyle. Now, I'm now teaching myself to say, well, no, you can't have those suites that used to or

a borrow of chocolate. You can sit there with a glass of wine in the evening and here or they'll you know, drinking champagne every twenty four hours you're on parties. No, I've had to readdress it and I work from home remotely so my job predominantly is sitting down. I've now learned at least within the hour, I'm up and stamping for five minutes. Movement is key in helping us. Finding what gives you joy is so important, and that can be a walk around the block. It could be the long walks,

it could be the short walks. It's about being moved mobile, that's the key thing. And looking at our lifestyle because you know, you can go on this fad die that fad diet. It's more about how you look after yourself, and self care is so important. It's the key thing. It's the fundamental process of us getting through this journey in a way that's more manageable for all of us. Yeah, and other particular are the particular resources that

are available out there. So you know, if I'm as we've said, you know, we've all kind of we've been talking a little bit about how people don't necessarily know or if they do know a bit, they need to research a little bit more in preparation. Where does one go. Obviously you talk to you, I know you go to a GP, but are there other resources that we can get this information from? You mentioned the book earlier that you're reading, and this website, I've got a page on menopause.

There is, I mean everyone knows doctor Louise Nuisan, who is the menopause doctor. She wrote the Menopause Manual. She's also, i believe, the court co founder of the Balance app Balanced Menopause. Yes, yes, really great. The British menopause societies out there. There is the Menopause Charity. Yeah. The book I'm currently reading is The Natural Menopause Method by Karen Newman Newb sorry Newb. And then actually doctor Louis Newson herself, Louis Newsen wrote

Preparing for the Peri Menopause and the Menopause. Okay, so there's quite a few things out there, you know. And then there's also the National Institute of Health Cares. Nice, right, Yes, my website I've got you know, tips on there. Okay. Instagram is full of it now, Yes, I've noticed. I've noticed that, and it's it's quite interesting. I mean, I guess there are people can make content about anything, but actually there's been I follow quite a few accounts where they are talking about that.

And actually, you know, that's been quite a learning experience for me because there's been some unusual symptoms that I would just be like, oh, this makes so much more sense. Now, just give me a bit of a picture. And I think there's also something in the idea of community as

well, coming together where you realize we're not alone in this. And that sounds almost ridiculous to even say that, because there are millions of women around the world and this is a natural press that we're going to go to, but it can still be a very lonely place, so you know, to know that there is there is a community of people out there talking about it and what have you. So I would definitely, you know, encourage anybody

who is starting to kind of wonder. And it could just be the fact that you're getting older and it's your age, but if you're experiencing some of these things, definitely there is resources and services out there that can support you. Now you know, I'm going to access question because I'm a guy. I got to access question, and I'm not asking you personally. Someone did think I'm asking you to be by you, But how does it affect intimacy?

That's the best way I could put it. From your from your your from your gathered research and what you gathered like I said, I don't want to do you some something. It doesn't you know, there is this myth that menopause sex life. No, it's true and it's not true. You know, women do you get vaginal dryness, irritable and fatigue. You know, when you're fatigued, the last time thing you have energy for is yeah, rump a pump in the garden, the you know bedroom, because you're

tired, your emotional as well, your emotionally drained and emotionally down. However, I have heard for some women it has exasturbated. Yes, start to buy it was saying that, actually, yeah, she was saying that for some yep, increases it. Yeah, it decreases it. Yeah. But then for those who have said it has decreased it for them, it's because you know, when they talk, when you talk further about about it, it's feeling tired, feeling emotionally drained, and just not feeling able to connect

with their partner. Not because their partner has done anything wrong, but they themselves cannot connect. Okay, I had to act. I'm sorry, my guy, please ask to ask you. For many a guides who knew that question was coming from me, she just was like they organize that question, but I don think I want to touch it. And we're coming to the

end now because time is fast spent as usual. Obviously, women make a big proportion of the workforce, and I know it can impact our workplaces, and I'm kind of again, looky that sort of you know, many companies are starting to kind of recognize that this is a challenge for some of their workforce and putting in place policies. I know at my workplace there is one which I was really surprised to see, very glad to see it actually, because you know, it's part of I guess it's part of the inclusivity,

equality, et cetera. Sort of remit there is that something that you're seeing more of. Obviously you work within your your your you know you're a practitioner, a facilitator in your workplace. Is that you're seeing a lot more. They're trying to encourage that a lot more. Yeah, my company in the Short Trust recently were given accreditation as a menopause friendly company. Wow. Okay,

And that's so key because it recognizes the journey we're going through. So I believe even on the HR link, there is a if you need time off for menopause. It's recognized. If you need adjustments for work, it's recognized because we do notice, you know, you lose your memory, brain fog comes in. I know for me, I started doubting my ability and my job, which I don't know what, you know it was part of I do believe it's part of the menopause where I doubt in my strength and

my capability of doing my job. And I'm constantly going back to the manager to get reassurance, which I've never in my career really required reassurance. I know my worth and my capability, but suddenly I'd lost that. So for

me, I'm very much advocating it. I don't think a lot of businesses can see the benefits of it yet, similar to women, you know, being pregnant and going off for maternity leave, it took a long while, and you know there are things, you know, there are people out there championing that more companies are credited and recognized menopause as part of women's health as a whole. And you know, the more we can talk about, the have the conversation, educate people, it will happen. Yeah. Cool cool.

As for usual, we're kind of running ass. It's always the way we start talking about every topic, and there's always so much, so much as we could cover on this. So I always always say there's always gonna be a part two, potentially a part three, but ultimately is about continuing the conversation. I guess if we're going to think about obviously we're talking about

lifestyles as well. I mean, you know, for many of our listeners are Christians, having their spiritual life must play a big part in this. And you know, the things that you said bring you joy, So if there's things like prayer, singing music, you know, being out of do you talk about being outside, being out of nature, All these things can make a big difference. So I would really encourage anybody out any women out

there, to really find those things. You know, sometimes just taking the time out and finding some peace sounds like that's actually going to be very very beneficial for many different things as well, but especially in this life as well.

If there's the kind of one thing that you really wanted to highlight, may this as kind of as a clothing closing thought, what would that be for any women out there who are starting to experience I'm saying starting to experience women who maybe have not got there or starting to experience, or maybe going to have the unside. How can we be talking about something we're talking about connecting and supporting and having a conversation. What would be your kind of closing

thoughts on that? You are not on your own? Okay, it's key because it feels like you're on your own when you're going through it. You are not on your own. Reach out. There is no such thing as a silly question. Every question is important to find out more. Talk to others around you. If you know someone experiencing it, reach out and get the support. There's so much online, there's so much on social media. It is not. Every journey is individual. No one menopause perimenopause is the

same. It's it's an individual journey, so how you navigate through it will be different from how someone else is. I can't tell you you do this, do this, do that, because I can only tell you from my experience. But what I want everyone to know is you're not on your own. Please do not sit there on your own. Reach out and get the help, get the support you need, and talk. No, that's perfect. So I want to thank you so much. Maybe it's for joining us.

We'll definitely have to get you back on again because there's so much more we could I'm sure talk about this because I guess it's as you said, it's so unique, and I guess any kind of you know, going forward, any tips or any things that we can learn, because it's about learning from each other, you know, So there's a lot more that we could talk about this. So I do thank you so much for your time, but I thank everybody for joining us on talking point. Our time has been

spent well. There's a lot to be learning here, and I just want to encourage everybody who is this thing that has maybe said you're not alone, and ultimately we have God on our side as well. God is going to And I always love that text. I think it is Isai forty one, verse ten that says that God is watching over yous. I think it's that one one I can ever remember. But the concept of God upholding you with

his righteous right hand. I love the idea that we've been cradled, we've been held, and we're here to support each other and God's got our back ultimately as well. So I want to thank you all for joining us on

talking point. We've come to the end of October, at the end of our Black History months, so we've been celebrating our sisters, and throughout this month we've had some amazing women who it has some amazing work yourself, including maybe so thank you so much, and also big thank you for doctor Baino as well Sunning herself probably in sunny Barbados. I'm not envious at all,

but so we're gonna say goodbye, thank you for joining us. We're coming into November, which is going to be our men's month, I do believe, so, Pedro, We're going to be handing the reins over to you for some of this. We're gonna be looking at some men's health issues and again we want those men to have those conversations. And I know, Pedro, we often talk about saying that men I'm not always talking as much as they should do in their own circles. We know they do, but we

want we want to encourage it more. But we want obviously highlight things that men are finding challenging and how we can be supportive with that. So there's there is maybe space to have another menopause conversation from a man's perspective. Yes, it's very true. Just just just with that in the mind. Yes, because they're I mean scared, scared mind. There you go. I had a friend who listens to Dr Bayno and that's what he said. He said, you know what, this was just so eye opening, so informative,

but there's so much more that he wants to know. And yes, that's probably something that we can consider. Well maybe for next October to have the men sort of tackle that conversation, because yeah, we all need to have it. Definitely cool. Alrighty, so thank you want me to pray, yes, pasure if you could do that, be fantastic. All right, Heaveny Father, we thank you for this opportunity of given us to have the discussion about women and the things that they go through. We ask Lord

that we and everything you do is for a reason. Everything you have done and have made our bodies to do is for a reason. So we ask Lord that you will continue to bless us and be of us, and whatever issues we may have, continue to guide us and lead us down the path that you want us to go. And we ask Lord that you will continue to be with everyone at the sound of my voice. But whatever issues they may be, going through that, they may be able to turn to you

and you will help them to get through these issues. Thank you again for your loving, your mercy. Let us all have a good week and come back next week. You're freshed and ready to go for this our praying your Holy name. Amen. Amen, thank you, it's been talking point, it's been wonderful. Thank for your us. Do tune in to Adventage Radio London. Life programming continues Sunday morning with family matters in the news and actually

there's a desole business and marriage marriage, don't forget that one. And that's good night from us. See you again, Take care. Adventist Radio London. Inspiration for the song