Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are you a Charlotte today? I have an incredible friend on you want to know me, Lena Wait, who is an incredible actress, producer, and screenwriter and director. She created a Showtime show called The Shy, which is now in its seventh season, which is amazing. She wrote and produced Queen and Slim the film. And when I first really really became aware of her as most people is when she
started Master of None. She became the first African American woman to win the Prime Time Emmy Award for Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series. And she's also in that series and it's so incredible. It's about her own coming out story. I love her so much and she knows so much about television. I think you guys are really going to enjoy this.
Elena Wait.
Yay ye, thank you for joining us.
THANKI for having me dined. Have you on?
I've been dying to come on.
I texted Lena right away, Yeah when we got this podcast, did saying.
You will have to be on, please please please.
And I said, yes you did, thank God, thank God. So honored to be here.
I am honored to have you, and I'm honored to have you for many reasons. Number One, I just like to see you. I love to see Number two Lena, in case you guys don't know, is a multi hyphen it. I'm going to tell you your whole resume later and you're not in front of me. But the thing that's important is that her knowledge a film and television is so expansive and deep, and this is partly why I love her. Like when we first started, and just like that,
you left me the sweetest, sweetest voicemail. I don't know what panicky thing I had sent to you or whatever, but you know, you're just very grounding. Your knowledge is very grounding in terms of you know what has happened before, You know how things develop in our culture on television, in film, what it means. And as you just said to me when you sat down we were talking about this episode, you said, I think television has a timestamp, which tell me more, what.
Do you well?
I think sometimes when people look at TV from say, ten years ago or even twenty, it can feel in moments uncomfortable or icky, even because you're thinking, oh, well, no one would make that joke today, or you couldn't do that now. And what's interesting about that is what I believe art is it's time capsule, really, and it's a time stamp of where we were at that time
and what was happening in the world then. And so I think of even though yes, He's are fictitious characters, in a way, this is sort of giving us a sense of what New York was at that time, what it was for women at that time, what the limits were at that moment, and what could and couldn't be talked about, and what barriers you guys were pushing up against. And so I'm really grateful that I got to grow up with it.
I was, like am I.
I was a teenager when it first came on, and so I was learning so much about what it meant to be an adult friend by watching you all. And I think I was more interested in that than the love stories per se. But the love stories are there as well, sold you bust about self love and how
you see yourself. But watching it now as a forty year old person revisiting the episode, for a lot of us who are my age, we feel a little confronted by now Sex and the City because we are now the ages that you guys were then at that time, and we're seeing ourselves play out some of these storylines,
and that I think is saying that the show. You may point certain things out and say, oh, you can make that joke now, but I do think the show is aging well, thank you, because the fact that I can see myself.
In it as I get older and understand things better.
It's worked that I've gotten to grow up with and I still get to sit with now. But now it's not a lot of us are saying it's not just fun on the background. Now now it's okay, I'm in this stage right now, or I'm going through a divorce, or I'm about to get married, or I'm about to have my first baby right and so now it's as if you guys are still there. I think of art as an inheritance, and so we have inherited this, this work, and that's why I think within just like that is
the continuation of the life of the work. And so when I go back and revisit, and just like that, I will be as I get older, I will then start to understand these stories even more.
I love time.
Thank you.
Yes, that's part of the reason I wanted to do the podcast is because I do feel also for myself.
Right, you know you're there, right, because I was there.
But also I was the age I was when we started, right, and now I'm the age I am now, and I have such a different perspective.
And as I was telling you when you sat down.
I had never really rewatched because when they would come out in the beginning, we would be so excited to see them, you know, because obviously we were kind of doing this fresh, totally different thing, and you know, we were always like a little scared also, you know about whatever we get done, as you know, because you act as well, it's like scary, you.
Don't know how it's going to turn out, and you guys are taking a lot of.
Risks, a lot of risks.
I mean, we still are like wait till you see the first episode.
Of Wait, I'm ready. Okay, I'm ready.
I know, but I was like, oh my god, I forgot about that.
But that's how we used to feel too, like you know, what do we say, what do we do? How's it going to seem? Are people going to be Just in the beginning, we thought people would just be outraged, you know, because there was nothing else like it, you know, and we weren't out there talking about sex freely as women time in nineteen ninety seven when we filmed the pilot, right a different time, right. So then over time, the first time that they syndicated the show, they edited it.
Do you remember this it was on?
Of course I was actually think about that, right, And so.
They took a lot of stuff out, And if you'd be walking by TV and Beyon, I'd be like, ah, you know, it just seemed so weird to me, like to first of all have it be out in a mass way, right, we never expected that, and then to have it kind of altered, which was weird, so like whole storylines would be gone. And then also I felt like, well, I just don't want to relive it and like live in the past.
Sure that's true, because the past and future don't exist, right.
Exactly, there's only the now.
But then when it came on Netflix and all these younger people started discovering it absolutely, and I think because we're still together working, so it's not that thing where it hurts you to look at it, you know, because we're still really very vibrantly together exactly, and you know, love.
What we're doing still. So then I felt like, I so.
Want to see what storylines still resonate, what still is true, what isn't true?
You know what?
Culturally, where are we at? So many things have changed and then certain things not changed it at all. Yeah, super fascinating, absolutely.
I mean what I remember when it did come to E, and I remember because obviously I watched it on HBO and loved it.
I us to watch what my mom was is like crazy, you know.
But I think when it came to E, I think some people work kind of nervous about how is this going to translate? Because the whole thing about it is that it's HBO, it's premium, it's different. But I think what was happening was it had become such a cultural point in our society that I think it was actually really smart for E to put to grab it. Obviously for a lot of reasons, but because then it became this sort of thing where anyone could have access.
To it, you know.
And the truth is, because Sex and the City is such a premium type of entertainment, it was nice for people to have access to it, absolutely, and I think that was cool. And I think now when it came to Netflix because now it's everywhere.
It's exactly as it was.
They aren't taking things, yeah and so, but now it's happening in a way where like when somebody gets sick or you're chilling at home, whatever, now you can just have it on, but you're not. It doesn't feel mindless though, it's sort of it's almost this new rebirth. If you think about it, how it airing this original then it
goes to E now it's on Netflix. What it's telling you is, this is the kind of thing every television writer, creator, person wants to make something that can live in different mediums. You know, it can be on a streamer, it can be on a basic K you can go to HBO, Max Steell. I think if you want to find it and obviously still find the latest, it means that there
is a desire for it. There is something about these characters, something about dating, something about friendship, something about trying to balance career and family. These are just universal things, you know. And look, you deal do with the race element, yes, like for women. But at the end of the day, it's like it's something very universal about it, very universal.
And that's cool.
But I mean, look, I mean, we live in a white leaning society, we live in a patriarchal society, we live in a capitalist society.
Those are just facts.
And when you accept that, there's a level of Okay, this is what's happening. But what I do think it just like that does is where you guys have brought black women to the table now, and so what you kind of find is that there's cultural differences, but not when it comes to love and balance and trying to raise kids and keep a husband and have a sense of self right. And so what that also reminds us
is we have more in common than we think. But what's interesting about these characters is a black woman could say I relate.
To Charlotte, of course, you know what I'm saying.
A black woman could say I relate to Carry, an Asian woman could say I'm a Samantha my crew. Because it's really more about these these character sort of types. And also if I mean, there are people that break down sex in the city in much deeper ways than I do, but there are people that say they represent they make up one woman.
I know you know, yeah, I mean, okay, see hello, hello, she knows.
I did push back, did push back.
It also depends on where you are in your life, because because sometimes you're you're in a Charlotte era where you're like, I really want to be married, I want to have the kid, and other times you're in the Samantha era where you're like, I'm cool here, I want
to yes, exactly. So I think what's also interesting about the show is as you grow, and there's that whole argument online is that everybody says, when Miranda was right, you know, we were kind of were almost taught by society to, oh, Miranda is so uptight and she's so cold, and she doesn't she's not as you know, frolicky as the other girls. Yeah, but then you kind of grow, you kind of realize in your life, oh, she's a person with a lot of discernment, she doesn't trust easily.
She's not as like warm and cuddly.
And I think that's because the world, especially a corporate world where she lives in, you don't really get to be that, you know, I'm saying the Also, Charlotte is a person who is in the art world and she's a curator and all these different things. So I think you get to be a little bit more leaning to your feminine in a way that maybe of people can't. With Samantha working in pr you have to be tough, but there's also a level of like using her feminine
wiles to get what she wants. And Carrie is a writer, so she has to live in order to do her job. If she's not dating and having sex, Like, what's her column going to be about?
Oh yeah, I forget that.
Yeah.
So so there's just so many things about it and also so interesting because of course the press or critics, if you look at old reviews, they say, oh, it's gay men writing white writing, it's hating, or they have all this sex, or where they got this money from.
Look, at the end of the day, it's what the show is actually.
Doing is confronting all of us about what it means to be a woman in the world. And I really think, to me it was so fascinating about the show really covers is motherhood, you know, and about you know, have you got an abortion? Did you think about getting one?
You know?
I love the show coulda is one of my favorite episodes that talk about that one. It's fine, but you know, but yeah, it's just gonna, i know, come back. But it just sort of covers. And that's how I learned television writing, really from watching the watching Sex in the City and listening to Michael Patrick King's commentary.
It's about making sure you have everyone's opinion in the room.
And and and those writers were so great at making sure whatever the topic was, all four of you none of you agreed, right, and and I think that was and it was. That's what makes the scene, those obviously those iconic lunch dinner scenes so amazing because you all are going to have a different opinion, you know. Anyway, I love an episode I'm here to talk about. Miranda actually has to leave the table.
God, I know I'd forgotten about this.
She leaves the table because she's like, I'm tired of talking about men.
I know, which I think Michael Patrick, because Michael Patrick wrote this episode is called you Now to the ball details.
It's all good?
Where Care was season two opener where Carrie is mourning her.
Relationship exactly her relationship, living in that horrible fear that you're going to run in to your eggs somewhere in the world, which of course happens especially in New York on those streets you.
Are and Charlotte is saying you have to, you know, be sad and be inside and go through, which I actually agree, I kind of agree.
I agree with Charlotte there.
I agree with myself. I agree with that.
Character and Miranda.
I don't know Miranda's like, nor don't feel those feelings.
Just just you gotta go. Let's stop talking about it.
And the truth is, when I was watching and I was like, oh my god, that's our lives right now, Like somebody's going through, you know, a separation, and some of us are saying, girl, you got to move on, and others are saying you need to mourn. And I was watching episodees like, oh Jesus, this is my.
Life being reflected back.
But I think that we're both right, you know, in some ways, I do believe in May I'm that friend saying, like I was in a voice note, give yourself grace, like, be gentle with yourself, take your time, It's okay.
But then the others are saying, girl, is time you got to go?
Because this is one thing Charlotte talks about, is there a limit?
Because I do think I do think with myself certainly, and I haven't been through a breakup in a while, thank God, But you know, there comes a time where it maybe goes too long.
Couch too long?
True.
I mean, well, I think that's the interesting thing is I think, well, I also believe everything is temporary, good feelings as well as bad, and so if you're feeling sad for a really long time, or it feels like, hey, what's going on? Then I mean, if Eleena character is there, I'm saying, then it might be a time to talk to a therapist for sure and kind of get to the root of what's going on, because now this person is more a representation of something.
You've projected onto this relationship.
Yes, this is triggering something.
You got to get to the root of it and looking at it in retrospect, because we ultimately knows what happens with Carry and Big. The question then becomes, if you can't get over someone, are you actually meant to get over them? Is there something going on? Will that person come back? Or you know, there's a season you know it's like that, maybe it's time for that.
Person to go away and you come back.
But I think also the writing is just so beautiful because she does bump into Big. Of course, she looks great she's with the hot guy, you know, and he of course is a little a little burned by it. And it's season two, so yeah, and it's setting something up, which I think. You know, Sex and City does a beautiful job of creating these romances that can that can come and go, which I also learned about in terms
of relationships. They can blossom for a season and then they can close and they can come back.
I mean that happens with your character as well.
You have gentlemen that come and go and then they find their way back into your life.
That's true, and that is true true, I think with in the beginning, And again I wasn't I wasn't really thinking very objectively when we were doing it. I whatever they wrote, I was like, let's try.
To make this work, you know.
That was my thing, right, Like I never examined it very hard, right, So when I'm looking back on it, sometimes I'm like, I know, Charlotte believes in love, but like, why was she so into Big?
Because Big really puts Carrie through it, you know, true?
Right, I was always like, yay.
Big, you know what I mean, that's interesting. I thought about it.
But I also think it's because I'm my age now versus my age then do you know.
What I mean?
Well, well, what's interesting because I think she believes in them because for Carrie, she's thinking like this is the one.
I think she's thinking that because Carrie is thinking.
Right, and she wants Carrie to be to have what she wants, and she wants the guy that she's going for. And I think at the time, I don't know if we had the emotional intelligence to say, well he's not really committing, what's going on and what should we do?
And also he was all the things that they talk about now like breadcrumbing, the things that people talk about on life.
We never thought those things in the nineties. No you didn't, No, we didn't.
But it's so interesting because like I was around, like you know, my mom and her friends always say, I haven't mister Big, I haven't mister Big, and.
So I think everybody kind of has one.
And I think, but now, what mister big represents to someone who is just unattainable definitely and.
Someone you kind of can't have.
And that's why I think, you know, within just like that, people get so in their feelings because in a way, Sex and the City is like the sort of fairy tale for adult women.
And so well, the movie then also kind of gave us.
It continues the chapter where oh they it was a mess up and they got married, and then the second movie okay, cheetah, okay now and just like that, okay, it sort of takes you through all all these stages of a relationship, you know. And then I mean not to get too deep, but you know, when his character dies and away, it's that part of that little.
Girl of her has also died. But she doesn't need to chase a prince charming anymore.
That's so true, and I feel like she really embodies that so beautifully. You know, people complain about Carrie online, which I find weird.
I don't know who could complain about Carry. I know, Lena, what's the issue?
Explain about Carry? They think she's self centered?
I think, well, aren't we all?
I mean, yes, my feeling.
Is this, and you, as a writer are going to have some insight into this.
My feeling is that partly, I mean, if she was perfect, it wouldn't have been interesting exactly.
No, she has to be flawed, right, I don't know what. I was talking with someone the other day. We were getting really deep about se They never really dealt with Carrie's daddy issues. They glance at it with the Vogue episode. Yes, you know when you see the photo because there is the older gentleman who's helping her, thinks that there's something between them and she for her, it's not. It's more, Oh,
this is a paternal figure. Even though mister Big is older than hers, it's enough of age difference where it's sort of like, you know, Speach and Trey type energy.
But I think, you know, I think as I.
Learn and grow and do read books and go to therapy, what you realize is how you show up in your romantic relationships is a direct reflection of how you were loved by your parents.
So true, what you didn't get from your parents you try to get from your love.
Yeah, and so you have to kind of look at your parents and ask what was I missing and what was I getting from you? Because what she says is very clear in the episode is that her dad had abandoned her and her mother he was gone, and so she in a way is looking for a man to validate, to accept, to be present.
And I mean, good, you are solving these questions for me. Yes, it's so true. I had not thought about this clearly.
I mean it's literally that I just had this conversation with someone. Wow, they were like, what are they ever get to carry his dad stuff? I don't really know if they talked too much about her mother.
No, we didn't, because.
That's on purpose. You want them to exist outside of their.
Parents, right, And he didn't.
He felt like when people go to New York City, no one ever talks about their their background. You know, you're just there, present in the moment, creating whatever. You're trying to create your own person, right. And he had reminded me at one point that there had been a scene that they ended up not using where she had in her bedside drawer a little picture of her father and she had looked at the picture and closed the drawer and they ended up cutting.
It from which the Vogue episode early I think the.
First season, I want to say, I know I had totally forgotten about this. Well, yeah, it's never explained.
Well, I do remember him saying something about that, like saying, I didn't want to go into the whole parents stuff, which you know, which I get as because with TV in the nineties that was always an episode, it was over here coming to parents, you got to clean up and who am I dating? And d and so give you insight more into the characters and so what was great about which obviously it clearly works because we see you all as individuals, you know, and now it's about
like what you're starting your own dynasties. In a way, it's about like who am I going to Mary? What kid am I going to have? But as we as just people out here watching it, and what I found, who I am in relationship is a direct reflection of what I grew up witnessing or didn't have or what i'm what I missed. And I'm telling you it's like the Dad conversation is like who was Carrie?
Who is mister Bradshaw?
I mean, that's so true.
Because that's more important than who is mister Big?
Definitely, that's so interesting.
And it's also interesting because people talk about the Aiden versus Big obviously they're so so different, and it is interesting that she's still I mean when I talked to Sarah, Sarah was on the podcast and I said, you know, what would you like to share with us insight into this? And she also no matter what she says, can't separate, right, she has.
Played carry for thirty years or you know it's it's crazy, yeah, twenty nine whatever it is.
Wow.
Wow. But she she explained Big in a super interesting way I never thought about. She's right, And I was like, no, I'm trying to ask you about.
Carrie, Like, let's talk about Carrie. Why is Carrie one? Mister Big? Did you know what I mean? Because she said so many interesting things that I would never have thought of.
And also, this is what I love about talking to people, is that everyone has their own first of all experience and second of all thoughts and memories, and you know, knitting.
It all together is super fascinating.
Yeah.
But what she The thing I took away from her thoughts about carrying Big was that in the initial pilot, do you remember I really hated the pilot previous to rewatching it.
Oh my gosh, I know. I always pilots are hard. Pilots are hard, so hard.
You've made so many, I mean, do you if you ever heard my theory of pilots. My theory of pilots is this, a pilot needs to be like seventy five percent good, but not one hundred percent good because you have to have the elements there, but you don't want it to come together too good because if it comes together too good, then when the show goes at my.
That's kind of true, do you mean? Yeah, it needs to have something, needs to be rough around the edges a little.
Bit right, to have that that energy the thing. It's kind of intangible, but not be all the way there. That's true, right, And that's how I feel like our pilot was fair. But I think the one scene in our pilot and when I went back and watched it was way better than I remember, because I'm hard on my self in my memory.
Whatever.
But you know the final scene where he drives her to keep running into each other, and he drives her in that crazy old fashioned town car and she gets out and she says to him or whoever, says, have you ever been in love? And he says that, and the lights are all glistening in the background. She basically said that in that moment, the die was cast.
Mmmm, that's good.
When I was trying to.
Get her to explain, why'd you put up with all the stuff you know you carry?
You know, yes, yes, yeah, she was.
Just basically saying that the die was cast and that she It wasn't necessarily something that.
Was thought out. It just happened.
Yeah, I get interesting. I think that's fair.
I get that too.
But also the I think that thing because I hear what you're saying. For it, it's an iconic last scene and it's the beginning of this journey that we had no idea with last, like you said, almost thirty years. Yeah, but I think it's also that Casablanca moment. It's that moment of us falling in love with them. Yeah, and this sort of like push and pull. And I think what you learn about TV couples is that they can never just be happy.
Otherwise you don't have a show totally. You know, that's why Big had to die totally.
I know.
They had the house, they.
Had the thing, they figured it out, and now once you learn the lesson, you go, that's right, and so now it's a new lesson for her to learn.
That's exactly right.
This is the other thing I think about Carrie in terms of people criticizing her. Is it because she is the writer and because she is driving everything and hearing her thoughts. Of course she's going to see him self centered. You're hearing her thoughts.
But here's the thing. What I love, love, love, love love about.
Sex and the City is they engage the audience because she's always asking a question. That's however, I wonder, yeah, or like, you know, should you stay?
Look?
And it makes you question she's wondering, and so now you're wondering get old things quickly?
Or by which am I? Or like do I do this? Do that?
You know?
And so? And I think, so now what I what I love?
What I feel like we love Carrie and she very much is sort of I think of Mary Richards for her time.
Yes, is that we now are on.
This ride with her right now we're dating with That's what we're saying, like it should be big, it should be aid and D and my old lesbian as a sitting there thinking like who do I want to be?
Am'm mister bigger on my aid and I always wanted to be.
I want to be yeah, you know, I want to be the one that's like making furniture, breaking down the wall. But the sucky thing is is that a lot of us feel like if you're an aident type, you're probably gonna.
Get cheat on Oh no big, But then.
I also have mister big qualities about myself. I think I think they say, like, okay, this is a little bit of a suave energy.
I don't know, but that's like I'm looking. I'm looking at both of them.
It's like, huh, okay, totally they represent different things.
Definitely, they represent different things.
Okay, let's talk about the breakup rules for a second, because when you're talking about the question that's there, that's her question. Yeah, so this is also so funny to me. So in my mind, the pilot was really bad and really dark, right, which it is really dark dark, But now I look back on it.
And I love that it's so dark.
Yeah, it's cool.
It's different.
I mean, you can barely see us sometimes, I know where are we?
I know? But then it gets super light.
I know, it really does.
We get more money, right, get a little fancier and.
Most definitely we had Sarah Jessica told me we had ten thousand dollars for costumes the first season.
Can you believe I.
Didn't even cover the shoe budget?
Is no, I know, I know, but that that was when we had to get people to lend us stuff, you know.
Yeah, that's all the way we did it in the beginning?
Do anyway?
Here we are? This is the second season in my mind. I also love season three as we.
I really like seeing three terms of where everything's just sort of gelling. But she's season two.
But I like season two, the season two opener, because what's interesting about it is there's an energy of you guys feel a little confidence.
Yes, there's a confidence in all of it.
Definitely, I think because you guys, oh, we're here for a second season.
You feel that way when you're doing a show.
Yeah, I think the actors because sometimes you know, if I'm the creator, I'm on the opposite side of it. Actors feel a little bit more settled because in the first season you're just trying, okay, hopefully get picked up. You get picked up for a second season, it means all right, what we did last time didn't work, the work it works okay, so we're not too bad. And then now you're like, okay, now we're on these journeys and who are these people?
Who are these characters?
I feel they're like there, you guys are like it's great, right, and we.
Have the coffee shop set.
Yeah, we actually because like first the first season, you're like where are they and like we're in weird places along along inide the city. Yeah, it's crazy. So we finally got the coffee shop set, which is great, and we have a scene that is a coffee shop scene, which is the one where Miranda gets about. And Michael Patrick wrote this episode and I think that he was actually using criticism of the show.
Yes, all you guys do is talking about man, you can feel that, and yes, and I've been you know, I've done that too. You write it kind of just like a run toward it, address it, address it.
Run toward it. Definitely.
I have the sweater that Cynthia is wearing in that scene in my house. Sometimes I would take miranda clothes home because you can wear them in normal life.
Oh my gosh. Right, I know, Miranda's like the real girl. She's like, I got to be.
A real normal Yes, as we go anyway, so this is the whole, the whole we go out to the baseball We're gonna.
Talk about them a second.
But the big question, which I love because it does come up from Charlotte, where Charlotte says that to get over a breakup, it takes half the time of the relationship what do you think.
I've always heard that and I always loved that theory. Yeah, here's the deal.
I love that.
You know, they're so like classic about it with you, like you take you, like they gave the number of how.
Long you were with the guy and how long to get over.
But I mean, if you if you set an intention for yourself where you're like, okay, dated for somebo three years, all, right, year and a half someone to give myself.
Yeah, that's all going to give myself.
That's good.
But some you know, you could date somebody for like six months and it could be super intense.
Good point, and you might need a little bit longer.
That's a good point, you know.
So it just all depends because some people can linger with you.
Yeah, it just.
Depends on the purpose person. Yeah, some people are easier to get over than others.
I think that's so true my case.
Yeah, we'll keep that.
Yet, we'll keep that, Lena.
You are dropping the wisdom every which way, and then we're just going to have to come back for another episode.
So you guys come back later in the week.