Davis, and I want to know, are you a Charlotte Guess what we have Chloe Mall. I am so excited because Chloe is connected to the show in so many different ways. It's true. Are basically a second generation member of the family. It's true. I'm an satc nebobaby. You are. We've coined a phrase. I love it. We've coined a phrase. She's an satc nebo baby. I love it. And secondarily
to that, or in front of that, I guess. She is the editor of Vogue dot com and she has an incredible podcast, The run Through with Vogue, And I mean, it's just a joy in so many different ways. I literally have the longest list of questions for you.
I'm so excited. It's very fun to be on the other side of the mic in this.
Story, is it. Do people ask you to be on a lot of podcasts.
No, I'm usually the one talking to other people, got it.
It's a joy. I have had such a you know, I love doing my podcast because of course I love our show and it's been super fascinating, and I love to have on our cast members and writers and everybody, but also other people like yourself, and it makes me understand being a guest so much better. Yeah, like really, I'm like light bulb moment, like, you know, let's have fun. Basically, it's like in film school.
At the first year of film school, they make students do every possible role on a film set so that you know what you're dealing with.
It's exactly like that.
Yes, so today I'm the grip.
Tomorrow you're not the grip. Today you are the actor. I would say, sure, but you have a lot of technical expertise, so you're like a really well trained actor. I think maybe. Okay. So Chloe is the child of Kendesbergen, a beloved actress and friend of the brand, as we say, and Candy is just such a joy in so many ways. As obviously you know, she is your mother, which is incredible to even think about. And your father is Louis mal who if you don't know, please look him up.
He is alleged film director of like foundational memories for all of us in my generation at least that hopefully everyone else is as well. So that's just brief summary. So I just want to go back for a second for anyone listening. Our showrunner Michael Patrick King has a very long history with your mom, which is how your mom came to play Enid, the editor of Vogue. In the Sex and the City World. I think Michael Patrick
King wrote on Murphy Brown. That's right. He won an Emmy for writing on Murphy Brown, his first which is so amazing to think about, and from his description of it,
your mom was really his champion. I think he came in just as one of many, many writers because in the heyday of sitcoms, which that was definitely in the heyday, you know, you might have fifteen writers something like this, and she really was like that guy, that young guy that stand up him, you know, so he really rose within the ranks of Murphy Brown, which was a very credible, you know, much lauded, incredibly viewed sitcom of the nineties.
I guess eighties nineties, Yeah, is that right? So then she comes we start our show. For the beginning, she didn't come on for a while, and then when she did come on, she came on to play Enid the editor of Vogue, And she has now played Enid through the first series, the film, the first film, for sure, I want to say. And then she's also come on and just like that, which is to us just incredible and a miracle. And then for myself, I was in a play on Broadway called The Best Man. Oh, yes,
of course. I mean it was so amazing cast right, James Earl Jones, James Earl Jones, Angela Lansbury jumphead. I mean it was real. It was a joy in so many ways. And your mom was there. I was literally dying of nerves. I was like the second cast right, So when we came, I mean I was just like, could hardly function basically from nerves. And the fact that your mom was there really helped me because she's such a warm, comforting presence. And she was like Chris did
I was like, oh, I can't do it. I'm so scared. So she was really she was really joy. And Angela also she used to call me Starshine cute. I know, she's second morning star shine. I'd be like, oh, I'm going to die of happiness. Yeah. It was incredible. And then your mom, your mom had finished with the run. We were like, please don't leave us. But it was a great, great thing. So I love your mom in so many ways, so so so many ways. And I love that you have landed in this incredible fashion world
and position. How did it happen? Oh?
Well, I mean one hundred percent this is I mean, there were a couple of like little news bits when I got this most recent job, and they're like, well, and remember Cannesbergen played a Vogue editor. It's not by accident completely. I mean, I'm one hundred percent. My connect to people in the publishing and media industry got me into the door, no question. And I think about that a lot when sort of friends kids write to me.
I also want to respond to random people from college who have just graduated, you know, for my college and want to write to me. I really want to reply to people who I don't, who don't have a connection, because for me, it was absolutely because I had connections to Vogue that I got interviews here in the first place.
And that was fifteen years ago.
That was twenty eleven, and I was writing at The New York Observer and The Times at the Times, and I came into interview for an editor job at Vogue, which was at the time editing the front of the magazine section called Flash, which was sort of the fluffy, exciting, events, glittery part of the magazine. It was the weddings, it, girls, parties, et cetera, and that was really fun and a great
way to sharpen my teeth in magazine editing. After five years of doing that, I then went freelance for a while and then about a year and a half ago, I came on to take this role as editor of the website because my podcast co host cho Minati went moved to London to become an editor of British Vogue, and she had been editor of the podcast, so.
We did a little musical chairs amazing and to me, as a you know, lover of Vogue, I feel like the website And I guess this is true for most magazines, you know, because publishing itself like paper, old fashioned publishing is kind of having, you know, its struggles these days. But now I feel like the website is so so vibrant, like taking over in such a beautiful way. Well that's nice to hear, thank you. Yeah, I feel that. I really feel that, like the once the kind of you know,
for me. I remember when Olivia Wilde did a cover. This was a few years back, and there's a beautiful video that went with it where you could really only put that on the website. You know, it wasn't something that would have had a place to live in its entirety, and it was gorgeous and it really brought it all
to life in a way that I mean. Yes, a photo shoot is fascinating and looking at a page I love still, of course because I am old, but I also love the moving image, so it's kind of the union of both.
It's exciting to experiment with mixing different types of media that supplement the original print form rather than replace it. Yeah, it makes it part of a bigger, more holistic product.
Absolutely, absolutely, But what about your love of fashion, because your mom was an incredible fashion icon. I mean, did you grow up surrounded by her closet and loving her fashion or did you not care? Like how where were you?
She is very dismissive of her love of fashion. She does not want to be She's someone who cares about what she wears and likes clothes, but she doesn't I don't think she would ever describe herself as a fashion person. But she was always on best dress lists. And I remember once I asked her if she was a hippie because we were talking about how she protested Vietnam, and she said I was a well dressed hippie.
I love that so much. I love that so much, and that's absolutely true. I mean, you do get the sense that she was this just incredibly beautiful young woman who kind of just fell into kind of her early days modeling. It wasn't something that she wanted to do. It just seemed like people saw her and just wanted to photograph her.
Yes, I think that, and she's written about this too, But I think that part came very easily, and what was more difficult was getting people to take her see seriously for other pursuits like photography or writing. And I was thinking about that because I just watched Mrsca Hargate's documentary about her mother and my mom Jane and Jane Mansfield had a similar I think that happened and still happens to a lot of women who are very beautiful, where it is hard for them to be taken seriously
for anything beyond superficial attributes. That definitely, I think that's probably part of why she never leaned into loving fashion as much as.
I don't know that.
She loves fashion, but she loves her own style, and I think she loves wearing things that make her happy and bring her joy. And absolutely she's not a vain person at all, and so she's very interested in.
Joyful, sort of goofy.
Things, and it doesn't have to be something that's necessarily the most flattering or the sheikhist. It's more about dressing for herself, which I respect.
I respect that so much, And Sir Jessica is like this as well. You know, people think that she is going to have this incredible closet at her house. She does not. Everything's in you know, storage catalogued, which is incredible, of course, but you know, she she has like three things that she wears on repeat, and they're quirky because she's trying to create, you know, an expression of herself.
She's she's interested in that more so than you know, the trends or fitting in or having the newest thing or whatever it is. And that I think is so strange for people obviously who've grown up watching her as Carrie, because they think she is going to be carry and she's not. But I also think it's true for anyone who achieves that status of being an eight girl or you know, in whatever era, you're you're kind of pigeonholed. In that in that kind of moment of time in
a weird, weird way. But I'm still interested in you, Chloe. So I know your mom, so no matter whether she wants to say that she's in fashion or not, I know she has incredible things. So I just want to know when you were growing up because I have a child, right, I've two, a boy and girl, and I'm always curious
seven and thirteen. I'm always curious my daughter thirteen year olds at this time, it is fascinating, right, I mean so fascinating, and she really doesn't like most of my stuff, but every once in a while she'll go like, oh, you know, like light bulb goes off on her, Oh I want that. And I'm always like really flattered because they're very picky, very very picky, very very picky tweens, right, tweens teens, But like what you know, you were surrounded
by these beautiful things. Did you think, oh, gosh, I love these beautiful things. I understand them. I want to understand them. I want to wear them. How what was your relationship thinking back now?
I mean I have a three year old daughter who every time she gets dressed or undressed, it's like an operatic, complete tantrum, and it's completely exhausting. But I do think about how much I respect how my mom let me wear whatever I wanted as a teenager, and I wore some deranged outfish.
I mean, wait, what year was this? What year was this?
This was I would say when I was like fourteen fifteen, so ninety nine, two thousand, I was still living in la I used to go there was a great vintage store on Ventura called Iguana Vintage. I would go there and get like orange swed cowboy boots. There was like a belt that had a huge clock face on it. I mean really truly hideous face.
I love it.
And she was just always just was like, okay, whatever. I also like to make a lot of like sort of craft a lot of my things. I would paint on my corduroys. I would, you know, cad up a David Bowie T shirt and make it into a tube top, which I wore in New York City.
I mean, oh my gosh, Oh that's very come on, that's very in. My daughter would be way into that if I were to allow her to wear such a thing.
And she, I mean she really let me live that that truth.
Wow, wow. Wow when you look at fashion now, because now these things are coming back in weird ways, like some of them are coming back and some of them aren't coming back. I'm very confused personally because I already lived it right as an adult, Like there are pictures of us in these things, and so now I'm confused about what I can wear or should wear. You know what I'm saying. How do you look at the kind of comeback of the nineties vibe? I never had a sort of either a.
Like an indie sleeze or a grunge or a minimalist period. I was always very were a lot of colorful, vintage things, so that those moments that are coming back into cultural parlance today are not as triggering for me. I will say that there was a moment I think I was sixteen or seventeen.
My mom and I were going to Barney's New York together. Oh this is so no, this is so much.
There was a paparazzi photo taken of the two of us, and my mom looked great. She was in her uniform of like slacks and a button down and some turquoise earrings, and I was wearing like sort of vomit colored corduroys and welly boots that were frogs. Wow, because I had those as a kid, and then I got them again as a grown up, and now J. W. Anderson makes the frog wellies for grown ups that are like seven hundred dollars. I'm like, you know what, maybe that ouf it wasn't as.
Bad as I thought it was. See, it does all come back around.
It does, Because seeing that photo, I was like, oh, maybe I don't look as cool as I think I look.
I mean, I feel that way anytime I see a paparazzi picture. You don't, I like, you never feel happy. I don't think. I mean, I don't know who does. But I also think that. I mean, I know at the time, I remember just desperately trying to wear these things because I felt like I should. And you know, if I went on a photo shoot, all they would have would be low slung jeans where you weren't really supposed to have hips or a rear end or anything like that, and I would just be sweating bullets trying
to fit myself in there. And I have there's some pictures of me existing out there where I'm just like, oh my god, I can't believe I'm wearing that out in the world, like my abdomen is showing and stuff. I mean, oh my lord, but you know that's what we did. I don't know. We were young. We didn't think that hard about it, and you kind of felt like it was just going to go away. Yeah it doesn't. It's back already. Why is it so short now?
Low jeans don't need to come back for me? Right?
I respect those who are passionate about them, really really, I mean, my feeling isn't just no, like I do not want my daughter wearing well, that's true, Like I have to draw the line because I can't get her out of the crop right, and she's very tall. So if we've got the crop and then we've got the law. No, it's a lot, it's too much, right, Okay, thank you. I feel better now, I think because I do struggle, Like, am I being too controlling? I'm not sure.
I also think though, that sometimes kids don't realize the suggestions of things they wear. I have such a specific memory of there was a brand of T shirts that they sold at fred Siegel Jet Johnashia Teas that were everywhere. When I was like thirteen, and it was the cool thing to get and to wear, and they had sort of cheeky things written on them, and everyone wanted to get one that said open twenty four hours and we didn't get it. We were just like, this is funny,
it's like a diner. And the moms lost their minds and it was it sort of needed that maternal gut check to be like, no, no, ladies, this is not a coffee shop.
This is your vagina.
Right.
It's a very stressful thing as a mom because, like I've had some conversations with my daughter about this, not not she doesn't wear anything like that so far, thank goodness, but you know, just like a general conversation like I went to the Paris uh you know, uh not what's it called Roland Garros? You know, the Paris Open? What's it has been? The French Open? Thank you so much,
the French Open. I went there. I've been before, and they have this very elaborate like collab store where it's you know, Lacoste who sponsors it, and then also Wilson and my youngest my son is named Wilson, so I'm in there, I know, right, I'm like, this is so exciting, and you know, we were there because HBO Max whatever we're supposed to say these days, was airing the tennis.
So we're there and I'm shopping for the kids and there are these really cute kind of vintage shorts that had a w on them, but they didn't really have his size. They had gemesize my daughter. So I thought, oh, I'm gonna get these because they they have a brother's name on them. I didn't really realize they were like kind of short in a vintage kind of a way. Right. She's all leg you know, and I mean she looks incredible. Everyone compliments her. I'm just dying, you know. People tell
her you should be a model. I'm just like want to fall through the planet Earth, you know what I'm saying. I'm just dying. So I get them for her. Then I can't tell them that she can't wear them because I'm like, oh my god, you got I bought them. But then so then I was like, okay, so we can't wear a crop top with them. But then I feel like I'm like so controlling, and then she says,
well why not. I want to feel free, I want to feel good, and I want to say yes, you can feel good and you can feel free, just only in the house.
It's very tricky, it is, right, and I think it's much trickier now than it was twenty years ago because we want to be much more. We want to endorse her our children's confidence and positivity and make them feel good. But it's hard to navigate that it is.
I find it really stressful. And I'm also so curious about people in fashion and how they look at it, you know, because I also know there's a huge, you know, variety of how people parent, you know what I'm saying. And you know sometimes I mean like when we were going to talk to you and you sent your favorite outputs,
which we will get to from the show. You know, it made me start thinking about like there were things in the show because I grew up in the South where you know, there was a look, but it was you know, like I'm pretty sure I had some wide whale corduroys that had frogs embroidered on them, you know what I'm saying. Like we were that level, you know
at one point, my parents not so much. But I wanted to fit in at school and be like super preppy, which meant all kinds of relatively unflattering things, you know what I'm saying, But they were in so who cares when you're a teen, right, Yeah? And I mean then I went to college in New Jersey at Wrutgers, and they were just like, what are you wearing? Like, you know, girl, like come on. And then they took me to Vinson Stores,
which was definitely an expansive, wonderful thing. And I wore oversized jackets because it was the time of Madonna with our you know tights, right, and I don't think I've really had pearls, but you know, we were like, you know, I've been through many phases, right, this is this is what it means to be alive this long. But our
own view of fashion, you know, it changes so much. Yeah, And I remember when we started doing the show, I just really wanted to look like I fit in because I didn't have this like fantastic New York background that Sir Jiska and Cynthia had. I had been an out of work actress in New York for a few years before I moved to LA But that's a very different existence than the characters we were playing, you know, And
we didn't have hardly a budget at all. When I had Molly Price, our costume designer, and she told me we had ten thousand dollars for the entire first season. Oh my god, can you believe that? Wild? I know, And we hadn't been on the area yet, so no one was lending us because they didn't know what we were doing. You know, wasn't there some.
Great story about the first baguette that like Patricia found it somewhere or something. Because the idea that what Texas City did for the baguette, I know, any brand should be so lucky, and the idea of what that be beg borrowed and stolen was is fantastic.
It's true. That was so Sarah Jessica already had a lot of her relationships because she had been an it girl. She tells me that I'm wrong when I say this, I'm like, no, no, I'm sorry. I have to correct you.
I am correct. You are an it girl. She already had a collection of Manolo's, like a couple hundred pairs or something, and I remember because I was like, oh, you know, like so impressed, right, And she tells a great story of being in La working and Manolo himself was here at the only store, which I believe was on the Sunset Strip at the time, and she met him like on her rainy day, no one was there.
He was doing like a you know show room type of a you know, trunk show, and she was there and he made he made shoes for her just because she was a customer, not because she was an actress. Where she got to pick the fabric and pick the heel and you know, all those things. Wow. Then she ends up shipping them back to New York in em FedEx and it gets lost, I know, the pain, the pain.
So that was years before we did the show, right, So she had already started cultivating these relationships because she has incredible tastes just naturally, you know, and she appreciates, appreciates well made things and the kind of the craftsmanship
of all of it. So she already when we did the show with Theirs in the first season, she wears the naked dress which was Donna Karaen I think, and that was her own dress that she had worn to an event, so she already she just went to her closet got it out because we didn't have money to get to get amazing things and no designers knew about us yet, right, so only from her contact did they know.
So she could occasionally say, oh, I'll call and try to borrow something, and I remember as as myself going like wow, that is amazing, and it was very clear. She would always say, like, we have to return it. If they send something to us, we have to take such good care of it, we have to return it.
And we'd all be like okay, okay, okay, you know, like like trying to be just the best the best girls, you know what I'm saying, and return everything pristine so that they would lend again because the show really needed it, right, which you know, I think in some ways was great training because she already had been through it and could could be an example to us of how to make
those relationships. Like in the olden days, we would go to fashion week, which was it wasn't everyone and their brother like it is now, right, would just be us.
And I remember spending a whole day just going from like this show, that that show, to this show to that show, and it was so exciting because it was you know, back back, you know, when it was a Brian park and it was amazing and you were just trying to be there for the designers so that maybe when you called them and asked for something, they might send it, right, like trying to make did a relationship. Yeah, it works great because the show was on at that
point right right, So yes, it worked really well. But also like for me, it was finding people that fit Charlotte's style and that fit my body because we were asking for sample sizes, right, which of course created its own stress. Sure, sample sizes are not easy, and in the two thousands back I was started a while ago, this is my problem on the podcast. I'd ramble. I would go to photo shoots and they would have literally just like white jeans, low slung white jeans, and I
would just be trying to get them on. I couldn't get them on, and I'd just be like, you guys, could you possibly get an airline screwed? Like anything? And I would feel so bad, you know, it's terrible. It was very stressful. It was very stressful. The nineties, the late nineties is when we started the show. It was really hard because there there was just like the look, you know, there wasn't a lot of variety, you know what I'm saying, of course, and now I feel like
it's much better. I don't feel like it's over. I think there is still, you know, a lot of pressure to be thin in the modeling world, for sure.
We talk about this a lot here and good the rise of skinny talk, which I think is so toxic and terrible, and I mean, GLP ones have completely changed the conversation around body positivity. I think a lot of people in fashion are skinnier than they've ever been, and it's startling, and it means that it's self perpetuating because then the samples are smaller than the models stay small and it's hard to overcome that.
It's so true, and I think it's also you know what people, I think sometimes people don't realize how hard it is as an actress to get the designers to dress you because they want to send you the sample sizes because they can't make everything in your size right. They just don't have the capacity to make like a one of a kind that they haven't made for the stores, and obviously you're trying to wear it before it's in
the stores. It's like a whole kind of like domino effect of the way the fashion world works that you don't really know about until you get into it. But like just to get to borrow the clothes, you have to fit into them. Yeah, and it's not easy and depending on the designer, that's what it's so important for me to find, Like the Oscar de Lorenta samples fit me, thank god, yeah, thank god. And Rolf Lauren thank god
because that was very Charlotte. So it worked out. But you know, those were relationships where once I figured that out, I had to really cultivate those and thank goodness, they were very kind to us and they still are. But back to the baget, because I haven't answered you yet, I asked Sarah Jessica, when did it begin that we could borrow the things from the people, the designer things, And the baguette was the first thing.
Oh interesting, Yeah, so she I believe had a relationship, had bought one or maybe more so she already loved it that you know, she was very she would do her research right, so like she wouldn't just casually necessarily wear something right unless it was vintage, in which case she would casually wear it, but in terms of the.
Current fashion trends at the time and now. Also she would really study, like you know, do I love it? What I carry it? Is it functional? All of her different things and the bagget was already something that she loved, and so maybe she brought her own one time and then we started that relationship and they would send her possibly thirty at a time, like I being like ah. And they were so beautiful, hand beaded, like sequin, beating, painting, velvet,
everything you could imagine. And I also remember that we would have these coffee table scenes and or restaurant scenes before we had the coffee shop built, and we it would always be a struggle like where are we going to put the bags? Because you couldn't always hang your bag and true New Yorkers don't really hang their bag on the back of the chair. This was much discussed amongst us because me being a Southerner, I hang my bag on the back of the chair and they'd always
be like Kristen, no, and I'd be like okay. So then you're like, where do I put it? Where do I put it?
In?
For Sir Jessica, she wanted people to see this beautiful, beautiful backget because what if she wasn't also in a walk and talk. So we have done scenes where the bag get is where the plate should be, you know what I mean, And she would just make it work.
It's true, I do kind of sort of can visualize that, right, But it works for Carrie, it totally works, and she would make it work. Miranda would never, but it works for Carrie.
No, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And that was how that relationship began. And I feel like that was the beginning of people realizing that we that we could and wanted to, you know, have brands on and feature them and do justice to them and wear them, you know, beautifully hopefully, and all of that, which really changed the show, you know, because we can never, never have afforded all
that stuff, not even now, you know. And just like that, I mean, we're still begging people regularly.
Bag at beggars, bag at.
Beggars, and or any any literally anything else.
I always think of the scene when Carrie goes to La and tries to buy a fake bag get and then the guy takes her in the back and opens up like his trunk and it's just all these fake bag gets in plastic wrap, and she just recoils in horror and she's like, I can't see them like this sort of backtracks and it's like I can't do it.
Oh my god, And how wonderful because that's still such an issue totally.
And I also think of that scene whenever I walk by the vendors on Fifth like selling like forty goy yard bags in like old plastic. It's like, yeah, it ruins the magic, it really does.
But I mean, yeah, it's an interesting thing. It's an interesting thing, like like you know, it is obviously, I mean, we could go down a whole rabbit hole of you know, child labor and whatnot. But I mean it's it's a problem. But I also kind of understand because I feel like with social media, this whole kind of you know, like feeling the need to have all the things like ourmes and the you know, it's gotten so intense. Yeah, it's kind of scary, So I get. I get that people
would want to get one. However, wait that they could.
What's the thing that all the thirteen year olds want right now? Like when I was thirteen and going.
To Bob mitziause it was a cat spade purse, Like, what is the thing that's adorable? You know? My daughter, luckily, is not so much into that, which is probably why I was asking you. I mean, the look here in LA is largely, you know, really baggy pants, some of them a little lower than I would like, but still baggy, which is good, and like crop top and like jerseys you know, like that are tied up and sometimes they do cut things still, which I did as a youth
as well. I think that's like evergreen and then I can't. I mean, there are there. I think at thirteen, the big fascination is will your mom let you wear heels?
Oh? Interesting, that's so interesting you say that because a few weeks ago I went to have dinner with my mom at the Cherry, Netherland, and I walked in and there was like a line of twelve and thirteen year olds waiting to go down to the Doubles Club, which is like this subterranean, like very waspy club wow in the shary Netherlands, but it is known for becoming the location for boys schools and girls schools have their dances there Wow. And so these girls were all waiting to
go in and they'll look for all of them. It was an exact uniform was tub top or tank top, mini skirt, this short and like high air Jordans high it was all sneakers. It was all sneakers and mini skirts and daughters like, oh, I guess they don't want heels anymore, because that.
Was when I was that age.
It was very much the garments for circuit and it was like how high a heel can you wear?
Right? Right? I think it's both. I mean, I wonder if that's a New York City thing because they had to maybe potentially walk somewhere. I don't know, maybe not, maybe they took a number. Yeah, because my daughter definitely wears her high air Jordans and or her high Converse with dresses. That's it. There's no debate. But she's very tall, as I said, and I have absolutely said, I'm so sorry you cannot wear heels because my entire you know, ankles are pretty much ruined. So I'm not wanting her
at thirteen to start down that road. You know, she has a few years. Yeah, give her a few years for sure. But there are some smaller girls who are her friends who do have I think that Kate Spade is still very desired. Oh that's nice to hear, like a little Kate Spade heel. You know what I'm saying, like kind of a cute Kate Spade hill, But yes, the miniskirt and the tube top and or tank. It's a situation, you know, it's a situation. Yeah, it's a no at my house, right, at least not at the
same time. Right. So that's what I'm really trying to focus on. But okay, let's talk about I can't even decide which thing talk to you about, but I do want to talk a little bit more about the show and fashion and your relationship to the show and fashion, Like when did you start watching the show? Did you know your mom was on the show? When did you pay attention fashion wise? How in what order did those things happen? Good question?
When I started watching the show, I don't remember when did.
The show air? We started in ninety eight.
Okay, so I think I started watching it a few years later, in like two thousand, when I would have been fifteen.
Got it?
And what did I respond to the most when I first started watching it?
Fashion wise?
I think even at fifteen and living in Los Angeles, I was captivated by the things Carrie war but absolutely found them to be ludicrous and not realistic. I was like a very unfun, pragmatic fifteen year old, and I was like, this is ridiculous. She can't wear this, she can't wear this tiny you know whatever. But I loved it and I found it delightful. I do have a very specific memory of watching the finale.
Of Sex and the City.
I had some girlfriends over to my stepfather's apartment in New York and we were all watching it together and my stepfather was sort of mystified and took our golden doodle, Jerry, for a walk and walked up past the restaurant we used to go to every Sunday night, Vico, and he was like, Oh, we couldn't come tonight because the girls are watching some show and her Vico is like, everybody inside watching this show.
No one comes tonight.
Like it was like the Super Bowl was the SADC finale?
That's adorable, there really were, you know.
I do miss those sort of cultural moments of that Streaming has taken away a little bit.
You know.
There are shows that have a you know, a weekly rollout like and just like that. But I do miss that group anticipation around a viewing moment. And I do have a very specific memory of going to the shoot day that was at the Vogue offices at four Times Square. How great, which is very fun because then and fifteen years later I was working there and I just remember the row of desks along the wall where the fashion
department used to sit. And I loved Carrie's outfit. I always loved Carrie's use of brooches.
I thought, Carrie, did they love the brooches. Great brooch work from Carrie totally. They're still up to that brooch work.
And in the Vogue Idea episode when she goes to meet with Enid, she is wearing this amazing I think it's a Vivian Westwood, Yes, pinstriped skirts suit org with a cameo broach and she looks fantastic.
And that is a real dream outfit for me. Yep, exactly when I got married, Charlotte myself whichever got married too, that I was supposed to wear this approach that Bunny gave me, that we were supposed to think was hideous, and it turned it into this whole drama because it was really beautiful and Pat and Molly Molly Rogers, who was Pat's assistant the whole time and who is now our costume Designer on and just like that and also currently doing the Devil Worst partuct because I text her
this morning and she was in fitting with n Hathaway, So then I had to text Sara Jessica. But I have an answer to something that you are going to bring up. But they all love brooches, Molly Southern also and Sarah Jessica. Again, this is about the craftmanship. I believe, you know, like to make a broach the traditional way is an artistry, and she has such appreciation of that.
So I remember that this brooch that I wore, which I was supposed to complain about, that Bunny gave me, and I felt this pressure to wear it, et cetera, et cetera. It was gorgeous and so we had to cut all those lines. Oh my god, you know. And I still have it at home, which because it is gorgeous and it is do you wear it?
No?
I don't, because when I'm getting dressed, I don't think about like how creative can I be? I think how can I look nice and not call too much attention to myself? Those are my two considerations. Shouldn't saying like how did you both? But I should get those things out more often. You know, I should because I have them. I mean, maybe one day my daughter will like them. I don't know who knows, who knows? But okay, so
let's go back to you. So you remember when your mom was doing the show and you went to the set, and what were your thoughts? Were you like, Wow, this is cool? Like what'd you think?
Yes?
I thought it was interesting.
I thought it was cool.
I wanted to be a writer when I was very young, so I was very interested in I forget. I meant to rewatch the episode, but I forget how much carry is paid.
I think it's four dollars a word. Yeah, I haven't written down here somewhere is it for fifty a ward? It's four dollars? Then she gets it up to four fifty a ward. Yes, what did you think of that? How reach?
I was like, Oh, it's by word interesting, I'm learning things right right? Also now laughable of four dollars a word?
But what do you mean? It's just most people making two.
Dollars or less a word, I would say at this point, and that's for print, for web, it's much less than that.
Oh yeah, that's so said. But this is what I don't understand. I knew that there was a per word. You know, traditionally this is how writers were paid for magazines and whatnot. But are you is there also like a salary?
No?
Oh yeah, but what about like benefits?
Well, if you're freelance writer, you're not getting benefits.
But like one like in your previous incarnation when you were doing the weddings and the girl and the whatnot.
Oh then I didn't Then I did not get paid any per word.
I was just had a salary. Okay, but did you get benefits?
Yes, okay, okay, oh yeah no.
If there's then there's no per word. Got it, got it?
Got it? Just on staff and you're writing whatever you're told to.
Got it.
But if you're a freelancer and you're being paid per word like Carrie was, I mean, people back in the day used to make a lot per word, you know. Michael Lewis apparently would make ten dollars a word Vanity Fair, Plum Sykes used to make six dollars a word at Vogue. Wow, plump sex was in our movie. Yes, I remember that. I love that scene. I have to say I rewatched that on a plane a year or two ago, and It was such a delight because it really was a
very accurate representation of a Bogue shoot. No way to have Patrick and Andrea and Plumb likeay.
It really was.
Very much what really goes on. And you don't see that depicted that often. That's so true.
I mean we knew all of them separately, just from the world. And I was one time in Aspen. We
used to do the Comedy Festival. The HBO Comedy Festival was an Aspen every year, and Andre was there for some reason, which was fantastic, and we went on a the horse drawn sleigh ride together up the mountain in this crazy snowstorm, and of course he had his fur had on in his fur and you know, he was just so much delight, exactly doctor Chevago, because Andre lived big, you know, Yeah, it was like he created his own atmosphere that he desired. He was such a joy and
so kind, so kind. And that day that we filmed because Willie and I I believe are in that scene watching rest and I remember that our wardrobes had to be approved by Funny Miss Wintour.
Likes to get her hand up in the mix exactly.
We were like anything she wants, anything, she wants. She and Michael Patrick worked very closely together and that's probably why it is accurate. And then I remember when Plumb got there. She walked over and she was like, oh, yes, this is fine, and I was like, thank god, thank god you guys. I'm okay. I'm okay in my very tight roder skirt.
Another scene I remember loving even as a teenager with Enid was when Enid and Carrie run into each other and at the restaurant. At the restaurant, I forget what happens, but she says something about like having it all, and then.
She oh, no, she says, you can't have it all.
So I have a boyfriend who you know, I'm above fourteenth Street and he has a different girlfriend below fourteenth Street. You can't have it all. And then she goes to Carrie's book party and runs into the boyfriend with his other girlfriend because they're in no man's land. And I thought that was a great I remember thinking, it's it's true, you can't really have it all, and you do sacrifice things, and it'll be interesting to see what I choose to sacrifice.
Oh, that's interesting. So like, as a personal point of reference, you thought, oh, this will be interesting.
I just I think it's nice to be reminded. I think I grew up during a period a sort of post Gloria steinem everyone women can have whatever they want moment, and so I was raised thinking that was the case, and it was helpful to be reminded that mathematically it just isn't possible.
I think that's fantastic. Yeah, I think that by the time we made that show, who knows where I was at with that personally. But I also I grew up with Miss magazine on our coffee table. You know, it was very important. But I also was surrounded in the South by a very different reality than what was presented in your magazine, right, So I was already in this very you know, strange like what is true? I don't know what is true. I guess you find what you would like to be true and created or moved or
whatever it is, which is what I did. But still I do think there was definitely a pervasive message around I feel like the eighties, the late eighties, early nineties of like you can have it all. You know, you're going to be a boss baby, and you're gonna have your babies on your hip. From all those magazine shoots where the bottles would other babies or a baby, a P ten baby, I don't know, on their hip, like
it was one of these baby. Do you remember that it was a lot and then occasionally their own baby, and you were just like, wow, that is so impressive. But I mean not easy and very rare, you know. And I think by the point that we made that show, we all really knew that because we were doing the show and it was really all consuming in so many ways, and everyone was, you know, trying to live their lives at the same time, and it was not easy at all.
So I think that's probably why that show got written. But I mean, I haven't gotten to that point in rewatching. But I love that you remember it. I love that you remember it, and I love that your mom has been in the role of ing it over the years. It's so great and so fascinating. And sometimes I feel and I wonder how you feel being over there in
the world of the real Vogue. Sometimes I feel like we almost have to sugarcut the harshness of that business, you know, like sugarcoat I should have said, or undercut whatever less in the what we're actually saying, which is it's kind of brutal. Yeah, do you feel that?
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I work in the fashion business, but I also very much feel like I work.
In the news business.
And because I'm doing the website and our news might be Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey went on a dinner date, but it's still news, and it's still timely, and those kind of urgent, reactive moments are very can be quite stressful and feel like you have to.
Be constantly on and responding.
So I do feel like it's not this sort of the just the joy of the Vogue closet kind of thing, which doesn't really exist.
Let's discuss let's discuss the Vogue closet, because at one point where it wasn't your podcast set in a Vogue closet, which I was like, I don't think that that's well, that.
Actually is the Vogue closet, And they did design it to be a place where we could film interviews, which I thought was a great idea because you have the wall of shoes behind you.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
I say, it doesn't really exist in the way that we see it depicted on screen, because there's not tons of clothes there that just live there. Clothes are called in for shoots, they are you know, under lock and key. The Manolo's actually are kept behind locked doors, and there are shoes that live there permanently because often for a shoot you'll call in close but a stylist will say, oh, but I just need a classic Manolo BB pump to go with it, so they'll unlock the Manola cabinet and
take out the BB pump. But no, I mean the closet is a very controlled space that's really a way station between shoot and going back to wherever they were borrowed from.
Got it? And someone's keeping track?
Oh yes, it's a whole team of women and gentlemen keeping track.
Do you think, like if you think about the Devilwar's product and the the you know, pressure on all of those assistant girls, yeah, to look a certain way and also to be you know, beyond excellent at their jobs. How do you how do you? I mean, I know it was a comedy, obviously I should should say that, but how do you think about that in terms of your own experience?
Well, I will say that I never had the privilege of being Anna's assistant, so I don't have a first hand experience of that, but I do find just judging from Anna's to assistance right now, Sammy and they both look great.
And have fun with that.
You know, is today is wearing a bright red shirt dress and she looks fabulous and she has fun with it. So I don't feel that the pressure and this stress of having to look a certain way is what's dictating that's how they're dressing. I also think that things are very different at Vogue now than they were twenty years ago.
I do.
I mean, I remember when I started fifteen years ago, everyone was in high heels all day, and now you're hard pressed to find someone wearing heels.
It's just a different environment. Yeah, I definitely content ask when we went, I was surprised. I think we saw maybe a few people, but definitely there was a sense of fun with fashion. There was a whole variety of what people were wearing in the building.
Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, Global director of Vogue, Runway in Vogue Business and host of the run Through podcast. Every Tuesday, join me for the latest fashion news, like the shakeups of Balenciaga and Dior, and what's trending in Paris and Milan. You'll also hear interviews with top designers from Mark Jacobs and Rick Owens to Daniel Roseberry, Sarah Burton and many more.
On Thursdays, Chloe Maall, editor of Vogue dot Com and cho Minnati, head of editorial Content at British Vogue, take you behind the scenes at Vogue and share their thoughts on fashion through the lens of culture. You'll hear interviews with some of your favorite stars like Julianne Moore, Pharrell Williams, and celebrity stylist law Roach. Join us to get your fashion and culture news twice a week. Listen to The run Through with Vogue every Tuesday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.
First of all, I just want to tell you what I was texting Molly Dodger's are costume designer and Sarah Jeska about is the vintage chanel? Yes? Yes, it's a repeat, right it's not. Oh, there's a lot of debate. I know that it looks like it is and there's a lot of a lot of confusion online about it. So she wore this pink version back in the first show, and then this version she wore and just like that
is purple. So it's not that Sarah Jessica went to her archives and got it out, because I think we were already in the midst of shooting and she didn't have time. I think that Chanelle sent it or Molly found it. That was the thing where Molly's fitting in Hathaway and I couldn't bother her. She she apologizes, but
you know they Molly and Danny are costume designers. They work for six months before we get going, and they go to vintage stores and you know, England and France and Palm Beach and you know wherever right, and they find all kinds of random things. So I think Mollie found it somewhere and remembered the other one because she remembers everything. So she brought it and she asked, Sir Jessica, will you wear this as a callback? So you are
a callback? Then an actual rewaar was that online? Everybody was like because also I think it has a logo and a different place on the back. Funny, I know, but you know the exactly they're on it. Okay, they're on it. So I had to check in with Sir Jeska and she said No, it was the closest we could find. Oh that's so funny. Yes, but she didn't
go and rummage into her archive. I think sometimes she goes and gets things from her archive in advance, like, for instance, the Vivian Westwood wedding dress to wear to the met Ball, when we know that there's a big plot point where she has to get something. I think she got the was it. I can't remember the huge millful dress. You know, Yes, she got that pair of new right, Like, if there's something like that, she will go and get it out. But I don't think this
Chanelle was that. I think this Chanelle was molly up to her tricks and Sir Jeska going on with it and it was a joy to see. I enjoyed it. My going out at night outfit was really fun to create. Oh my God, made me laugh so much.
Thank you because I loved you and Harry together and it completely I really feel for parents trying to go out.
I ride right now. Oh yeah, and can you imagine like also the work pressure, you know, which probably might feel I don't know. I sometimes feel the work pressure, though not in the way of like you're actually selling art after hours. You know what I'm saying, like, that's a very specific thing. So this was really fun because we knew it was coming. We were, you know, working on it for a while. This was our costume department
at it's best, where they're mixing and matching pieces. It looks like it's one outfit, but it's totally every single piece is a different designer. I've got my little tiny chanel, very impractical but adorable bag slung across me so that I don't have to put it down, right. I have the Galliano may Marcella of course, which'll have a housing right. I've worn it many times. It is a okay, a dream right. And we were a little concerned about the cleavage.
So at one point Molly wanted to put some chiffon across the top and we played with that, but then it kind of messed with the silhouette, so we took it off and kept it pure. I've got an Achris skirt on. I have Oh do you know Brioni Jeweler. She sent me that beautiful it's like her rosette necklace to die for. And then we needed a little short bolero, so Christian Siriano made me a little short Bilero and
Molly went and picked the fabric, which was perfect, so sweet. Yeah, and it was it was It was such a creation, and I had to wear it through so many different scenes and we would, you know, take the jacket up, you know, and then I have to walk out in the morning and you know, smear my eye makeup and everything. But it was a good time and everything stayed intact. I was slightly worried that something was going to happen to that very expensive necklace and that dance sequence, but
it did not. We made it through with maybe a few drinks spilled on the outfit, but that's nothing we couldn't fix, right, Okay, So then this is the most interesting thing. You say, your favorite outfits from the first show. And no one in my life has ever sent me so many of Charlotte's lingerie looks. I love Charlotte's nineties.
I have such specific memories of being like, oh, I guess you can wear pretty things to bed because I like button down, like I like like what I love Lucy, what Lucille and Lucy and DESI would wear to bed?
Me too, Yes, me too. I wish Charlotte Charlotte wears Yeah, totally, totally. I mean, this thing, oh my god. I mean, I don't know who made it. I think it was like not a great designer. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but it was something like you know when Charlotte when we go to Atlantic City and I get that TACKI dress in the in the store. In this case, you know, it was like that, like when Charlotte is trying to be sexy or what she thinks of as sexy, and
it's way outside her normal purview. That's what this seathrew thing is. And I remember being scared out of my wits to film that scene and to walk out in this outfit and very stressed about what underwear to wear underneath it. Well, because it see through. I was like calling my manager, like what should I do? You can kind of see my breasts, Like, oh, I'm scared out of my mind. So I mean, I look at it now and I'm like, that's not really so much of
a thing, but at the time it seemed like it. Yeah, no, Charlotte's Nightties.
And I have to give credit here when our producer emailed me and said, you need to choose your top ten favorite Carrie and Charlotte looks. I immediately took out the bat phone to two of my best friends who are encyclopedic academics of the SATC Cannon, And immediately my friend parents sent me like Charlotte's nightties like fourteen images and oh yeah, so that was and something I did love, but I'm not sure I would have thought of that without that.
Tell her thank you, Tell me, thank you.
I appreciate it.
My there's this one from first season which I think is just like a you know, department store, possibly possibly like not La Perloa because we couldn't afford it, but maybe like Notori. We did wear a fair amount of Notry. And then we get into the vintage look, which at a certain point in the Tray relationship, I do actually have vintage because I was trying to pretend that I was Elizabeth Taylor and count on a Hotton roof right, which works for so many different ways.
And then is a foreshadowing of the King Charles Spaniel.
All connected, yes, And then we did discuss the beautiful Westwood. Sarah has such a great history of wearing Westwood, and I think wears it so so beautifully. I always love it any Westwood time. Oh my god, then we have this look. Now, this would be one of the times where I would have been like, oh, you know, like have a very Charlotte type reaction, but this woman can pull it off.
These hot pants with this newsboy cap and the bag yett.
It was. It's just one of those.
Er carry looks where you're like, this is ridiculous and just exactly what we want.
And also I don't think you have it in here. But do you remember the tiny green skirt with a little fluff frill on the back.
Yes, it had a little tail, like a little feather.
Concerned, I was like, oh god, she's gonna be on the streets, and that she's gonna be okay, no way. I have a really good memory of this Miranda look. This Miranda look is you know, a a a one of the Halloween costumes that people sometimes wear, which I love. And this is when I think we're in Brian Park, the actual park, and she's wearing this and Sarah Jessica's
wearing basically a Heidi outfit. Oh yes, it's true. Do you remember she has like pink cheeks and she might have pretend freckles even like She's so ahead of her time. And I'm wearing like a bucket hat, which is not my favorite, but Pat was brillianta hats Like Pat would have a theme and like a vision, and then we would all be part of it, and you just had
tod of like lift through it. And I remember having one of the like a little Charlotte type speech, like where I go on some kind of a rant, and I had Cynthia in this one outfit on one side and Sarah in the Heidi on the other side, and I remember just breaking into giggles, like I just couldn't focus. I just was like, I don't know where to look. I'm just gonna look at Cam because I don't know where to look. It makes me laugh. But you know, this is what the show is great at, is just
being creative and thinking outside the box. And I give so much credit to Pat and to our directors and executive producers for allowing us to do so truly right, because I mean it all worked in the end and it was part of the fun, right completely.
Yeah.
Okay, here we have Sarah in the Dior by Galliano.
Everyone talks about this dress, but I do feel like it's taken on a new life of its own with Jenna or Tago Worerett and I just have to say, you know, as someone who works in print media, print is not dead.
It's on that dress, thank god, right, thank god. And I remember this at the time. This was a special dress for a special scene where they really planned ahead, and you know, there's so much thought that Sarah, Jessica, Pat and Bally would put into kind of those special moments, and they that this dress might have come in early, and then they save it. They kind of hot try to hide it, but you know, they always need things for shoots, so then they have to let it go.
And then they're like, oh, I hope they send it your dress back. Oh I hope they send that dress and let us keep it long enough. And then when Jenna Ortega wore it, it was incredible. And we discussed this to somebody on our recent press press tour and Sara Jessica was very much a fan, which was so nice. We have all the important things except for the hat. Do you want to talk about the hat really briefly? Sure?
I love this hat because I'm I'm very into sun protection and I respect that Carrie leaned into Gingham for this good call.
I feel the same way, and it goes so perfectly with the Aussie Clark. I think that people are so strange that they want to criticize this. Yes, I find that wacky, like why not?
No?
Let what she wants?
Right?
Yes, it's fun. I agree. I agree. I'm happy that you like it. You have been such a joy, Chloe. Thank you so much Christmas.
It's such a treat.
Okay, bye bye