I Want Candace... More with Candace Bushnell...

Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are you a Charlotte? You guys, it's exciting. On the podcast today we have none other than Candace Bushdell.

Thank you for being with us.

Oh, we have so many questions for you. I mean, this is the original Carrie Bradshaw, herself, her alter ego that she created many many years ago. We're going to hear all about it. I want to take you back because honestly, there are things that I don't even know, because in the beginning of the show I was just trying to like get through it, you know what I mean, like figure out what was going on. We were filming like crazy.

It was a lot.

I didn't ask you questions that I'm like, why why didn't we take Candace out to lunch and ask her a bunch of questions? But it was too hectic, right, So like for me, I have questions about how did you come to write the column for The Observer in the first place.

Well, you know, it's so interesting because I'm doing this one woman show called True Tales of Sex, Success and Sex and the City, which I've done. I actually just got back from doing it in Prague. The London Palladium, Wow, Budapest and Zurich, and then I'm going to go to Copenhagen. Great. I'm going to end up at Sony Hall in New York City on May sixteen, so great. I want people to buy tickets. But it's so in this show it really answers all of those questions. So it's really the

I was writing about women and.

Relationships, sex and money, power and status in New York City all through the eighties for women's magazines, Got It. And in fact I was writing about my my Samantha. Yeah, but she had different names, of course, so in like nineteen eighty five, I think her name was Julie, and then she might have been Susan, and then she ended up being Samantha. But I kept changing her name. And she was one of those women who she knew everything

And but the.

Difference was that it was in a publication that a lot of men read. So I think the audience for the New York Observer was like sixty five or seventy percent men. So that made people feel like, oh, it's much more important because it's in a publication that, wow, men are reading, and you know, as we all know, if men are doing something, it's very important. Oh my god doing it, Oh my gosh, how crazy.

So this was a big deal for you, Yes, and in general.

In fact, when I got the column, I remember that moment and it was probably maybe it was the end of October of nineteen ninety four, and it was a warm day and I like ran up Park Avenue thinking, oh, this is my big break, this is my big break because I've been writing for fifteen years since I was nineteen. Oh my gosh, and and I just felt like this was going to be my big break. And it was and it was, and I remember all the door men

So now when there's a hard question, is there any part of you at that point who could have foreseen what was to come?

Absolutely one hundred percent. No. No, I mean I don't think anybody could have ye foreseen it?

Right? No, me neither.

And you know what I do know is people started reading the column right away because it was you know, it was about people who everybody knew.

Okay, so that was another question that yes, got it. So they wrote something and like and you would change the names, Yes, I would change the names. But I went out pretty much every single night with my notebook, and I had Wow, these notebooks they were this big and they were little spiral notebooks and they could back then they could fit in your handbag.

Wow.

So you take notes, actual notes.

I took actual notes and if if it was like kind of uncomfortable, I would run to the bathroom and take notes.

Wow.

So I would be in the bathroom like writing things down like you know, somebody said this, somebody said that, yeah, And then I would get back the next day and I would look at all of the notes and and construct a story out of it.

You know, the people couldn't know they'd read it, and they yes, they know we're guests.

Well they would know or they would guess. And you know, the reality is sometimes people came up to me and asked me to write about them. Wow, Like the story about the twenty something twenty.

Something guys guys, Oh, okay, that was all right. So that was one thing.

But then and those were two real guys wow, that I was hanging out with, okay, and I was like, this is like, you know, the best material. And there was also one about the twenty five year old girls when they go to the Hampton's. Yeah, the Hampton's was really yes, Staten Island, which was because.

We couldn't for the Hampton's. Yeah exactly said when I pretend Charlotte pretends to be twenty seven or whatever, and then they.

Get crabs exactly.

The crazy storyline, yes, that was real, Yes, but not the part about Charlotte heading the crabs.

Okay, but that.

I mean, look, that's the kind of thing that happens. I had this whatever, crazy roommate, and she went she was always having sex and and she got crabs.

And we shared an apartment and guess what did you get crabs from my room? I did. Oh, that's bad. They go on the towel.

Oh, nobody tells you that, no, no one does. Listen, people, this is some information that we're going to end up. It will be definitely interesting to people. But you know what Canna says, Okay, because we're educating people exactly right, and this was a long time ago. Exactly still exists. But I'm sure they do the wait, go back to the real people part because I do get asked this

Okay, So Charlotte is the one character who I would say Darren really created that character, got it, That's what I thought.

So you know, all of the other characters, there was a Miranda.

There was a Samantha that specific or different people that you know, they were pretty specific. Samantha was pretty specifically one friend of mine again who knew everything about men, and I'm actually still friends with her.

Oh great.

And then the character of Miranda was like just this really ballsy, smart girl who she wasn't a lawyer, but she was somehow like in tech before anybody was in tech, so she was like really up on things, and she was just so she always used to say to men, listen, buddy, let me explain something to you.

Cute and funny. She just didn't put up with any nice stuff, got it. Did they know that they were the people that the characters were based on, Yes, okay kind of woes. Did they come to the parties and stuff?

One of them might have maybe the Miranda character, Yes, she probably did.

Okay, she probably did. I mean, I don't know Cynthia knew that. I don't know that we knew this. I don't think we did.

And she had short, dark hair, okay, interesting, and she was really she was just like super smart, just go get her woman. And then my friend Samantha, of course, you know the character's not really like her, anymore at all. But she was really beautiful and and she just knew, you know, everything about men, and men were crazy about her. So I always went to her for advice, like, you know, what do you think about this?

The guys said this, what does it mean? Oh? Yeah, he was really that.

That's helpful.

You know that friend that you have who knows everything.

Yeah. Now let's back up to Darren a little bit. Darren. How'd you meet Darren?

Well?

I met Darren because I wrote a story about him for Vogue. Oh, because I actually had a column in Vogue. Okay, oh my god, like Carrie. I don't know if she ended up having a column, but right, she did. So I had a column in Vogue, and I also wrote stories for them. I did profiles, got it And in fact, I just came across one that I did of Hugh Grant, which wow, I was reading it, I was like, God, this is such a great story. But he was very entertaining. He is very entertaining, Yes he is, he was. He

Oh got it. And Ron and Darren loved each other.

That's friend.

We used to hang out and in fact we rented a house in Aspen one year.

Wow.

So and then I took Darren for the first time to the Hamptons. And this was probably in nineteen ninety five, and I had just.

I had just.

Done a book deal for the columns Sex and the City to become a book. So that happened after I feel like I been writing it for maybe three or four months and a publisher said I want to make this into a book.

Uh huh.

So I told Darren and he said, oh, I want to option it.

Got it? So that all have been kind of bam bam bam.

Yes, But then I don't think he actually did option it until kind of a year later, and HBO wanted to buy it, and I had meetings with HBO and ABC wanted to buy it as well. That would have been different, and yes, that would have been really different.

And some movie companies.

Oh wow.

I didn't take any of it serious.

Didn't no.

I was like really, yes.

I was very like, oh, I only want to write novels and when the police are prize.

Oh my god, adorable. So how did Darren convince you?

Well, he we had the same agency, ICM right, and and HBO made an offer. And then my agent was like, you know, when I'm just gonna ask Darren again if you know he was serious about wanting to buy it, and he said yes, So I think he offered like a tiny bit more, you know, HBO, which at the time seemed like, oh my god, a lot of money, right, And and also I just loved Darren's sense of humor. And when I was interviewing him, we went to the set of Maybe it was Melrose Place?

Was it in Chatsworth? You had to like drive far from We had to drive far again desert.

It was in the desert, and one of the characters was like buried underground and I.

Oh, we did some craziness.

Was I don't know what that was, but ye, crazy, yes, And and he was like laughing and he was like, is this the funniest thing you've ever seen? And I was like yes, And I just thought, this man has the best sense of humor.

I agree, Yeah, yeah, and it hadn't really been used in his other shows, yes, exactly.

And and so I was just thrilled to be working with him. And then of course HBO and ABC still wanted it.

Oh wow, So with Darren, Yes.

Got it, which of course makes it even more attractive.

Yeah.

You know, having a showrunner like Darren is incredible.

Yeah.

And and and he wanted to go with HBO because he he wanted some freedom. Yeah, he'd done the CBS show and and you know, I mean, I don't think any of this is a secret. I think he's talked about that. He wasn't he wasn't thrilled, so he wanted and HBO was brand new really in terms of making original content. So it was kind of like a freedom, like a free playground.

Yes.

And it was their second show after Arless, right and wait on, don't forget dream On? Our listened dream On?

Why don't remember dream On?

Dream On was a strange show, Emil one who remembers it. It was a show with this guy, Brian ben Ben I believe his name is. Do you remember this? And there is nudity, There is female nudity every week. This is partly why we were all so nervous our first season about what is this and whose perspective is it from and who is it four?

Well they did. They definitely pushed those boundaries. I mean even more than because you know, Sex and the City was published in a newspaper, right, so it was how much details? Yeah, And also one of the things that we decided was we don't want it to be about plumbing, like, we don't want it to be about actual sex, because right, it's like, right, right, what are you going to say exactly? Yeah, everybody knows. Yeah, I have sech for sure.

For sure.

So it was like all of the things that went around sex. And then when it was on HBO, I mean it could be quite specific. And also when I was started rewatching it when it was on Netflix, Uh, I was like, I forgot how much sex everybody.

Was having with you.

I'm with you, you know, I mean Charlotte was having I know, so much sex.

Rude.

Yes, the I'm busy really like thought, I know.

There's some certain things that I sometimes I'm like, I need to go back and read the book because I remember reading your book when Darren sent me this script. So I read the script first, and then I went and read the book and then I was like, whoa, the book is a lot, right, because it had just much more maybe less specifics, but more storylines. Not really Charlotte so much, but.

It was it, you know, with the column and the book. Every week was a totally different column with different characters and different people.

So you know that.

And sometimes people read the book and they're like, it.

Doesn't make sense.

It's like, okay, yeah, because it was a little different, right right, right right.

But it was a different time too. But like in the beginning because remember, I don't know if you remember, we did the whole we did the pilot that we had to wait kind of a long time and my mire right right, yes, Skip picked up, which was bizarre, but whatever. And then we got picked up. We did the whole first season without airing, which was interesting. Oh yeah, it hadn't aired. Now that's kind of normal with streaming, right, but back in the way, very unusual.

So but wait, I thought we shot the pilot in nineteen ninety seven.

We did, and then we were waited until we got picked up in nineteen ninety eight. Then we filmed really quick.

What I remember was that summer, and it's I think it started filming in the spring.

Yep, we would always come in the cold. Yeah, you have to pretend like it wasn't. Yes, And we filmed for like all of three months or something. We did all of it really really fast. Yes, came on the air fast. Yes, but we had no one had seen a thing, and we were just like like, are we funny? Are we sexy? Well?

What are we doing?

Right? But when I started watching back it, I always felt like the first season was kind of a mess in terms of I'd come from. You know, spelling was like a very much not a factory in a bad way, but like it was a very set medium, right, very structured medium that Darren definitely changed and juiced up and made younger and exciting. But like, there's a scene, there's a storyline in the Modelizer episode. Yes, was that a

Now that's real?

Now, okay, so get to so you know about this?

How how did this? I?

Well, first of all, like the Modelizer story is real, and in the first season, they took a they took a lot of stuff. A lot of the stories from the book, you know, they get changed around, and even in the first actually the first two seasons, a lot comes from the book, which I recognize because I know kind of where everything came from. But you know, it was just going out and doing research and getting people to tell me stories. So people love to tell you

But like someone told you? Did someone tell you I do this? Did the person himself who was filming these models secretly tell you this? Or did you just hear about it?

Probably got it.

But also, filming people while you're having sex with them is not a new thing. I know what it used to be like without consent is bad, Yes, it is, it is bad. But I remember when I first came to New York people were doing that in like nineteen seventy eight.

Yes, like with a big camquarder.

No, they had like hidden cameras, hidden cameras in their apartments. I mean, look, these are really really rich men, which we know they don't always follow I understand the law, right, So so that.

Wasn't really a totally new thing. But yes, that was. There was.

A guy who was filming his encounters with you know, with models.

God, because the thing that's interesting when I look back on it, I hadn't remembered that at all. There's so much that I don't remember about the first season. And Carrie, you know, she goes over there and he's like, you've got to see my master work, my work of art, and he gets all has all those old TVs. It's very creative. And then the different models you know, show up and he's having sex with them, and you know, she likes a cigarette, like she's very unjudgmental, you know,

You know, women just kind of sucked it up back then. It's truely, not literally, but you know, yes, I mean, I mean it's and things have changed so much and it actually makes me really really happy. And it is partly because of sex and the city. Because sex and the city. You know, it's it has made women so much more aware and emboldened. Is kind of emboldened and given them a new way to look at their lives.

And you know, now.

When I, you know, I talk to young women, I'm still covering dating for whatever reason.

I love it, which is it's great. Is not so great right now for anybody. For sure, dating is hard, But I'm glad that you're covering it. Yes, that's helpful.

Yes, but.

You know, women have just they've just changed their attitude so much and they know. Now I hear a lot of women saying, you know, we don't even think heterosexual relationship are so good for us anymore, which is something that you would never have heard. In the mid nineties. There was no woman who would ever say, you know, I question the validity of the heterosexual relationship and being secondary to a man.

It was kind of a given.

And now women really they don't accept that. I think that's amazing. I think it's great, and I think it's amazing.

Wow. So it's so great because this is one of the reasons I wanted to do the podcast, is because I feel like the storylines and the writing and the subject matter is still so relatable. And some things have changed, but some things haven't, and being able to look at those things, you would think more things would have changed,

Yes, it is, because if you're not.

Talking about it or feeling free to talk about it, how are we ever going to figure stuff out? How are we ever going to know all the things that are going on or all the choices that you have, or what it might be like to make these choices or make these choices. You know what I'm saying? Yes, absolutely, I absolutely Okay, So let's get back to the real people for a second, because I get a lot of

For that one.

And then Jenny Biggs came who grew up on the Upper East Side, and she did know how to write for me, so that helped kind of give me something more like a through line that made sense, I guess. And also, I mean that's how it often is when a TV show starts. You know, you don't really know right exactly. So as you were watching the show develop, what were your thoughts on how Darren and company were writing?

You know, honestly, I always loved it. Oh good.

I always thought the show was first of all funny, yes, and you know, the column was is funny, and and you know, the humor is something that for me, it's like unavoidable, right, I want to try to write seriously, but but there's always this sort of deep humor that comes across, and that really came across in this series.

Right, And I do think that is what really has resonated over time with the show. Yes, and thank god, you know, and I know there were different people who felt different ways at different times of the long trajectory of Sex and the City about whether people should have gotten married or should not have gotten married, et cetera. I get that, but I also feel like we've now been through so many phases and the remaining thing is the bond.

Yes, yes, exactly exactly, And you know, no, I always loved the show. Oh good, I thought it was fantastic good.

I didn't know for sure. I didn't know for sure.

I always didn't know. I didn't know if it was weird.

Like like when you say, so this was your you know, your kind of almost like you know, research thing that you were doing for years and years and years where you're out and you're taking notes and you're studying people, and you know these people and you're hearing stories and everything, and then all of a sudden it gets kind of taken over here, you know, into a TV show. I didn't know if that was weird.

You know, people always ask that question, and you know, for me, no, good, it was never you know, it was never strange or I mean, maybe there would be some things that I know. I mean, honestly, there was never anything that was strange or uncomfortable for me because I was always writing.

You know.

I mean, I've had like a lot of New York Times bestsellers, so you had writing novels and you know, and I had an opportunity to be on TV and like have my own TV show and all of that V one thing.

It was VH one.

I had that this show on VH one, right, I think it was like one of the first reality shows, which is crazy, which is kind of crazy. Yeah, And and then I was you know, then there were people who always wanted to make the real life version of Sex and the City, which was interesting and I was like, no, why because there's already a TV show that's for sure amazing, right, And then I was on another reality show and the fact does like, I just say that's sitting around.

Yeah, I means a lot of sitting around. It's it's just it's true. I was like, I couldn't. And then even when I had that show on VH one and I had to sit in front of the mirror for two hours.

Oh, it's the worst.

I was like, this will turn you into a narcissist.

It could. I think it can do numerous things, right, it continue into the narcissists. It can also exacerbate all of your insecurities that you ever had in your life. Right, And maybe those are the two same things. I don't know, but it is rough.

To have to do. I was like, can't.

I can't do it. It is rough.

I can't do it.

I can't.

I can't look at my face for two hours.

It's hard. It's really really hard. It's really really hard to wait. Let's go back for a second. Okay, So Darren's got the show and it's getting you know, first we were small, as you remember, and then you know, it grew and go and grew. You're over still doing your writing, doing different things. You've got different things going on. So you weren't like focused on the show necessarily, No, okay. I mean, in fact, well, they used to send me the DVDs or the vhs.

H they were vhs.

They would send them to me on Wednesday, right, and and you know, I would watch it like it was going to be good. And then I always thought it was great, okay, good, and then people would watch it on Sundaday, yeah, and and be really excited about it. And I just thought, oh, you know, I had a book that was turned into a TV show.

So and I mean.

It was really like the first two seasons, I wasn't you know, I guess it was a hit, but it wasn't.

It wasn't a big hit till third Yeah. I got for that, Emmy. That's when I felt myself like what, yes.

I mean it was like after the second season that it felt like it really took off. And in fact, I actually thought it was going to be over when mister Big dumps Carrie and marry somebody else, because that happened in my real life.

Oh did it? Yes?

I really there was a time when walking around New York people would be like, the real mister Big did this, and I just be like, I can't deal with that, because we have to deal with our fictional selves. Right, So there's a time that I tuned it out, so I didn't really know how it played out, yes for you personally, Yes, so that happened.

In real life and that and I thought, oh, that would be like that, that'll be the end, the end, got it. You know, it's like it's told the whole story of Carrie and mister Big and he you know, ends up marrying somebody else, which is like such a New York story. Yes, and and so I really thought that would be that's the end.

Got this series.

Got it? And then it kept going and it's still going. Yeah, I mean, which is really incredible, isn't it incredible? I agree that it's incredible. I mean, we're so lucky to be able to keep going with these characters, I think. And we're so lucky to have the writing that we've always had and to have the characters that you started, because nothing would happen without that, you know, Like, characters and writing is the whole. It's the whole thing. I Mean.

Yes, yeah, I mean I do always say it like it kind of has to be on the page. If it's not on the page, it's not going to work on the screen. I agree.

I mean, it might work for a second, you know what I'm saying, but it won't work over time. So in the real life, when so mister Big previous to him marrying someone else on the show, which I didn't really I wasn't aware of the parallels still happening with life. Were you happy with how they developed mister Big and carry? How did you feel about that, because it's very interesting to look back on it. I think, you know it is.

And at the time, I I know what, I didn't. I didn't think about it that much. It seemed natural to me.

Uh huh.

And you know, but now.

With all this social media, a lot of people question it. And no, I mean, I mean, you know, in real life, you know, the real mister Big was. He was a you know, he was a great guy, but he was also a very powerful man, and you know, powerful men in New York City at that time were really a specific breed. You know, they threw things, They threw phones, they threw this, they threw that.

So in some ways, mister Big was even softer than the real deal, because I don't remember him throwing a phone.

No, he didn't throw a phone.

But in real life, I think the real mister Big had thrown a phone and it ended up in page six.

Wow of course, wow wow wow. But he's he was actually.

A great guy, and I was really in love with him, and but it just we were in just totally different places, like he was winding down. He actually left New York and went and lived and still lives in Vermont. And now when I look at his life, I'm like, why didn't I.

Go for that?

Living on a farm in New Hampshire would Well, now I think I would. Interesting now that I'm like old, I'm like, I could do that.

That is so interesting. Oh how we change? Yes, but I don't.

I don't know if that's right.

Okay, too, Okay, but it's an interesting fantasy. In fantasy, I had heard that about him, which I did think was also super interesting.

Yes, And also when I look back on the book, I realized he was looking for a very serious relationship. He wanted to get married, and I was so not there got it. I mean he was saying things like, oh, we should have a baby, and I was like.

No way, Yes, that's interesting. So I thought that we didn't put that in. We don't have that. No, wow, very fast, so.

That you know, so that you know, so in the I mean, it followed a trajectory. But I feel like in the first two seasons it was pretty it was pretty realistic.

Okay, okay, good, that's good to me.

I wonder I like, you know, you know the way Carrie was like even when she goes to the church to see his mother. Right, it's like, you know, that was the kind of stuff that we did back then, right, I know, it's kind of I mean it's yeah, it's now when I look back on it, it's like, I don't even know how we did that. But I mean there was like a guy was in love with when I was twenty years old, and I used to go and sit on a park bench in front of his building and wait.

For him to come home. I mean, come, oh and wany god, nobody would ever do that.

Well, no, we wouldn't have to. We would stalk them on Instagram or TikTok or whatever exactly right, exactly, but you'd have to go in person.

It's like, you know, it's like, yeah, I mean so I get it because I feel like I was you know, it's a girl. Yeah, yeah, he's like, I'm going to get this guy. I'm going to show up and he's going to fall in love with me. Well, I mean nowadays it's like that.

Will not work. But it won't.

No, that's what these experts on TikTok say.

The men, really the men, The men.

Okay, what do men say?

They say things like don't approach a guy in a bar.

What, Yes, because it's such odd behavior that the man will immediately think that you are, you know, unhinged.

This is bizarre.

This is bizarre.

And this is another change that is fascinating. Yes, and I would have seen this coming.

Never because I remember we used to go up to men and bars all.

The time, right, and I thought that was a good thing.

Yes, it was.

Yeah, so weird. See that's a weird and interesting thing too, because like in some ways we're talking about women who are I don't know older, questioning you know the validity of a heterosexual relationship. Then on the other hand, we have men on TikTok saying, don't approach a man in bar because they might think you're crazy. Like, it's a very weird dichotomy going on.

It is, it's wacky, it is there's been a lot of It feels like there's a lot of separation between the sexes just sad yes, in a way that there wasn't before. And I also see a lot of women on these dating reality shows. If the guy voted Republican, they ain't ending up with him.

They're like, no, I don't watch any of those shows because I find them depressing. But anyone who might be on those shows, listen to Candace because she knows what she's saying. Okay, I know nothing about that. Now let me get back on track of I have literally so many questions for you, and then we have to think about the actual episode. Right, Yes, but this is so cool.

It was insane. See it didn't seem strange to me. Oh no, because it was like, the show's brilliant. I always thought the show was brilliant. I did got it. That's good, you know, good for you.

So I thought it seemed you know, it seemed very normal.

But you know, I wasn't person right, you didn't come from the TV from the TV world. So for me it was like, oh, of course we got nominated, got it for an Emmy. But I remember I was staying at Darren's house during the ammy's and he was like, oh, we got nominated. You know you're gonna go. I didn't get to go. I had to sit in the HBO room. Yeah yeah, yeah, and then I could go to the parties afterward.

But they're the best part. But yeah, it was like it was really exciting.

It was exciting. I mean, it was exciting for us because I don't think that we thought that it would ever happen, right, And I think that we thought that it was fine. I think that we thought we would be like a little cult hit, you know, like Larry Sanders, right, like that type of like beloved in the industry maybe but not widespread. And then you know the fact that people cared and were so invested.

Yeah, it's just so amazing, really invested.

And I remember at the New York Observer them saying to me, I guess it was like maybe it was like the when the third season started, I'm saying, like, you know what, now Sex in the City is made being single really really cool. Wow, being single in your thirties and everybody's watching it.

And I was like, wow, that's great.

It is great, And I mean wish it were still true because I still feel like people just have this desire to couple everybody up, you know, don't you feel I mean, even though I think women maybe have more choices, I think like society at large is always like why are you single? Why are you single? Why are you single?

Well, you know, now there are more and more single women, which is great. I think it's like fifty one percent of the population. No way, Yes, fifty one percent of women over.

Eighteen are single. That's amazing.

Yes, and it used to be forty three percent in like twenty twelve. Wow, it's increasing, and it really is increasing amongst young women. So it's really the young women who I see on social media who are questioning, like, you know, what am I getting out of a heterosexual relationship? You know, I'm doing all this work. Yes, he's kind of disrespectful, he's cheating on me. Oh no, and he's not treating me the way that I want to be treated, and I'm super stressed, and I just don't I.

Think that's amazing.

So I wish I had asked those questions in my twenties for goodness sake, I know, but we couldn't.

No, no, we had to toe the line of you know, a relationship much weird of us.

I mean, I don't even know if I thought it was going to save me. I just felt like I was supposed to do that, you know what I mean. And I just also like, when I look back at the shows from first season, mister Big is so aloof to Gary and she is so adorable and trying so hard and trying different things tru I mean, and she's kind of trying to hide herself. And then at one episode she talks about like, I don't even show him my real self exactly. It's such a great, great episode

Yeah, I think today it would be called breadcrumbing. Hang, oh my god, you are where he gives her these little bits. I mean, I think like in today's dating landscape, if you look at their relationship in those first couple of seasons, you know, I I like, I understand it's hard to look at that relationship through today's lens because he is so aloof and he is so noncommittal, and she is trying to turn herself into whatever she thinks the man wants, which is what women did back then.

I mean, that's saying that never goes away. I think, you know, and I don't even know what's happening with this tradwife situation, but like like that, like what is it? Like? What on earth? Do you know? What I mean? I mean, we've got some women questioning the validity of a heterosexual relationship, and then we've got tradwives, yes.

Cream And the thing that's so interesting to me is also there's this huge interest in romance like romance novels, and now it's romanticy. It's basically a romance with a something out of a fantasy, like a dragon, like a dragon.

Okay, okay, okay, exactly Game of Thrones, thank you very much.

You know, then at the same time we have there is a real movement also of women saying, you know, I'm not going to do what society is telling women to do. But at the same time, like the romance is bigger than ever. So it's falcinating acotomy. It's very fascinating and strange. I wonder what's going to happen. We never know.

Don't ask me, I know, I don't know.

No, don't don't und don't no, no, don't gloom and do I mean, it might be coming, but let's not think about it if it is exactly so, Candace, thank you for being with us this whole week. Two episodes

It's amazing and it's coming to New York and this will be at Sony Hall on May sixteenth.

Awesome, that's amazing. And congratulations on all of your so many New York Times sellers and everything that you do. Oh, thank you. You're welcome.

M