Dr. Rahul Desai - Unlocking Red Light Therapy for Recovery and Performance

Welcome to the Architect of Resilience podcast where we explore the secrets of overcoming life's challenges and unlocking unstoppable strength through deep personal conversations and expert insights. I wanted to give you a heads up that this episode of the Architect of Resilience podcast is going to be a little different. The reason for that is it wasn't originally intended to be a public video. So I have the private community which most anyone can join. It's a free that is on

the link is on the education and Community. There should be a comment, a link here down in the notes or on the website chrisduffin.com if you go there. And go to Education Community, you'll be. Able to get access to our member forum. We have about 2,000 members and and the paying portion of those members. So again the forum is absolutely free, but the paying portion we have regular live calls

that are just for those members. And Dr. Rahul Desai, who has been on prior podcast with us, joined for one of those sessions and I really felt that this one should be open to the public. So we recorded this a couple months. Ago and I've been sitting on it. Because, well, the quality of the recording from a video aspect isn't normally up to par and you're also going to see some other people interacting, asking questions besides myself. So I just wanted to share the format of this video

and why it's a little bit different. But I think that you'll get some tremendous value out of this piece which. Is why I wanted to share it. So just a little heads up on. Why the look and feel is a. Little bit different than the remainders. Hi everybody, I'm Rahul Desai. I've been working as a regenerative musculoskeletal like joint and spine radiologist and regenerative doctor for approximately from 2008, so 17 years or so and really focused on using platelets, autologous substances so

patients own bone marrow and fat. That's my primary tools for regeneration. And then using my diagnostic skills as a radiologist to figure out what's going on with somebody, obviously seeing them in the office and clinic and then placing those materials with image guidance into structures that could potentially benefit from that. So any ligaments, tendons, joints, bone, cartilage, discs in the spine and know, lo and behold, it actually helps those tissues heal. So in the right

setting we don't need surgeries, we don't need other interventions. Sometimes it augments surgeries that if somebody needs a surgery it'll help it heal better. And then in that time have delved into other areas of regenerative medicine. So, you know, obviously the healthier the body is, the better the body heals. And we're, you know, we want our patients to do really well. So we've been, I've been very interested in all different sorts of, you know, medicines. We had a functional medicine doc

for a long time. We had trainers, you know, mind body health. We use a lot of energy based medicine nowadays. You know, have been using shockwave for a long time and then, you know, basically got my master's degree in, in the last year, year and a half in red light therapy. It's a proverbial master's degree, but really took a deep dive. Worked on starting a company, it's called Red Vibe Health. And you know, really exciting with kind of mitochondrial health and activation

and leveraging that to heal. So that's kind of my background and you know, became friends with Chris in the last year or so and you know, excited to, to meet y' all and hopefully, hopefully it can be a resource to you and you can answer questions and talk about stuff and I'm here to learn as well. Yeah, I'll start with my question. So on the podcast we did, you talked about the length of time and overdoing it can

ramp things up, maybe too much. But you were suggesting 10 minute, 12 minute sessions, maybe twice a day at the max. What are the implications of doing more than that? Yeah, when you think of, and you're speaking of photobiomodulation, so that's the fancy term for red and near infrared light therapy. So by shining this light onto tissue, onto the body, you modulate cell activity. And I want, like, when you think about it, think

about it in, in a couple of different ways. One way is, you know, if you have an injury or you have tissue that's inflamed, irritated, broken down, and you want that to, and, or painful and you want that tissue to heal, then you're going to directly shine that light or that photonic energy. Right. There's photons coming from the red and near infrared onto that tissue to stimulate it to heal.

The other way to think about it is that when you shine the light, the term irradiation is putting light on tissue or energy into tissue. It's not radiating it or damaging it, but irradiation of the tissue with that light stimulates systemic responses too. You get stem cell activation, you get increased energy in the system, in your whole body. That's another way to think about it. When you're doing that, can you do too much to one area or can you do too much to the system

potentially. And so there is, there's a curve, a bell shaped curve called orange tools curve. And so too little is not going to do

much. You know, there is a, you know, the big part of the curve or the, the hump of the curve where you're going to get most of the benefits. And then if you do too much, those benefits are going to start to diminish. The good news with photobiomodulation is it's very safe, especially with the devices that we have or the devices that you can have at home, these Class 2 devices. There's a really big safety margin. So it's kind of hard to hurt someone. What would

that bad outcome be really? You start to get thermal effects so you get to get too much heating. So if you put it on one area for too long, so say it's really close, you're depositing a high amount of energy or jewels into the tissue and you keep it there for 30, 40 minutes, an hour, two hours, it can definitely cause heating of the tissue. And you're going to get some, maybe even local tissue damage. It's going to be mild, but you could get some thermal injury or burns.

Okay. The same thing can happen with say a laser. The laser has the same wavelengths. So if you think of these, the red and near infrared as the medicine, right. So if we look at say a simple medicine like an Advil, right. So the, the wavelength is the medicine. So there's different medicines. You have, you know, 6106-506806-70858, 10. Those are different things that are going to affect the, those tissues.

And the dose is like say you take an advil and it's 200 milligrams or 1 milligram or 500 or 600 milligrams, that's the amount of energy, that's the dose. So that's going to be a measure of like the irradiance, how powerful the light is and then how long you put it over the tissue. Okay. And how close that is, that's what the dose will get. So you have to be careful. So one is the wavelength and that's the medicine and then the dosing has those other parameters. Does that

make sense? So you want to get the right dose. But the good news is there's a significant margin. So anywhere, five, 10 minutes with say a device that has a good amount of energy and I can speak to our devices and those that are similar. If you get that type of panel with a powerful LED that you're going to get enough dose, like for skin and superficial tissues

within five minutes. If you're affecting deeper tissues like tendons, ligaments, muscle, like that kind of system where you want a systemic effect, then you're looking at anywhere to up to 20 minutes. And then you can change the area so you can have the, if you do, say, 20 minutes on your abdomen and you want to do your back, that's not a, you're getting a cumulative dose, but it's not going to be dangerous to your back. Right. So you wouldn't

want to do, say 40 minutes just on your abdomen. So you could do 10, 15 minutes, 20 minutes on your abdomen, turn around, you know, treat your back or treat your legs, depending on how big the device is. You know, now we even, we've sourced some beds so you, you know, you have a full body dose there, you're going to be more limited because you're getting everywhere. Right. So then you want it 15 minutes and then you're, you're done

for the day. So Katie was asking, does the amount of melanin make a difference? Not a huge difference. They have tested different, like skin, skin colors in the dosing, and there's not a huge variance between, you know, white skin types and, you know, dark. My skin darker. There's not a lot of variance into that tissue. So you can still stay within that, that zone. Would you mind flipping your phone again in case I use any recordings? You're all sideways. That way we don't have to edit it. Yeah.

All right. Other questions from anyone else? Yeah, Ben, go ahead. Well, I have all the questions, so. But yeah, so you're, you're talking about the, the 15 minutes on your, your, your beds, right. Or larger panels. Right. And you're talking about moving the smaller panels around if you were trying to affect deeper tissues. Right. Is there a, a max benefit, if you will, for different parts of your body? Right. So like, if you were to, if you had one of your smaller panels, for example,

right. 20 minutes on my shoulders and 20 minutes on my legs. 20 minutes here and 20 minutes there. Right. Like, at what point is, is there a cumulative limit there, if you will, or is it, is there some, is there a max that the system can take is really what I'm asking. No, you're going to,

if you like, with a smaller panel, small, light, and you're moving it into different tissue, you're going to activate that tissue differently there you will get systemic benefits. Right? But you're not going to put yourself in harm's way by moving, moving it around. And it's just time. It takes a, you know, you're, you're spending a lot of time, but that's not going to be dangerous to the system. If anything, you're

going to get a, a larger systemic response. So when you're putting it on a, or a, a, you know, a limb, then the fat tissue in that area and the bone in that area, the stem cells, the cells that are, you know, they're called per sites in the fat, and there's mesenchymal stem cells in the bone marrow. Those are going to get activated and then they're going to get deposited, they're going to get into the bloodstream.

Okay, so when we talk about like stem cell activation, what happens is they kind of wake, they're dormant and they're waiting for signals. This is a signal and the way that it gets activated. So imagine they're like the firefighters in the fire department, right? They're hanging out in their, you know, chilling and relaxing. And then the alarm goes off and they have to get into the fire engine and go, right. And so that's the bloodstream. So when they, they come out, they crawl out.

It's pretty neat. If you watch YouTube, there's some really cool micrographic videos that show these cells crawl into the, the blood vessels and then they flow and then they're in the, they're in the bloodstream and wherever there's injury or dysfunction, they exit. So that's the nice thing. So when you get. So we talk about the systemic response. So even after you do the light therapy, within 15, 20 minutes, and then it peaks at about two or three

hours, you have this release of stem cells. So you hear people getting, for wellness or injuries, they get IV stem cells in this country, there's a lot of concern about that. It's considered by some illegal, I wouldn't want to go into that. But the theory of it is that, hey, you get this systemic dose of stem cells and they can cross your blood brain barrier, they can go to injuries

that you don't even know are happening. So that's what's happening. So when you're moving that device around, you're kind of adding to that benefit, but you're also treating the local tissues to get that, those cells to heal, to get that the mitochondria in those regions, the cells like all the nuclear transcription factors that, that start to develop. The proteins that are created when you shine the light on a local tissue, you get that local benefit. I hope that makes sense. So

I was going to just say. Elaborate on that just a little bit. Just like from the BFR world, like the prescription protocols for your shoulder is to do the BFR cuffs on your legs because it's that systemic release is going to cause those same growth factors to go throughout the body and then be able to hit. So yeah, you're, you're targeting local tissue, but you also have the systemic effect where you can't actually

isolate the shoulder. But we're going to create that so that those stem cells and growth factors are running through the body. So just to clarify, right, it sounds like moving the panel around is certainly not a problem. Right. But I would want to stay, if I had an isolated injury or soreness or whatever, I would want to stay on that for something like 20 minutes. 10 to 20 minutes, is that? Yeah, 15 to 20 minutes. And you can test that again.

It depends. How close are you to the device? Right. There's a inverse square loss. So the farther you get away, you're losing, you know, a square of that energy. So you want to be closer to the device. So that changes the amount of energy that's deposited into the tissue. But somewhere, you know, 15, 20 minutes in a localized area, say a knee, shoulder, you know, ligament, tendon region, you're going to get a nice

amount of energy deposited into that tissue. And then the other benefits that we're seeing long term are, you know, consider it kind of like micro dosing. So getting a huge dose at one time is not going to be as good as getting numerous doses every day. Let's dive into the world of optimizing your overall health. With pushing my physical limits, I encountered significant reductions in my health and I reached out to Merrick Health as the premier telehealth

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10% off. Hey Brian, I'm really interested in any questions that you might have given the population that you work with being, you know, a little bit different maybe than the population that you know a lot Of, Yeah. Clients of people on the call here. Well, I had, I had

a question first regarding localization of the therapy is do you have protocols for like a knee or a shoulder joint, something in terms of the angle, does the angle and the location of the panel actually affect the radiant to the specific, you know. You know, if I tear a rotator cuff, right. Do I have to have the panel in a certain position to optimize local, local therapy on, on the injured tissue?

And it sounds like it's almost more beneficial to just do a, you know, like a bed, a full body, you know, like, like you were talking about the micro dosing because it, because it affects stem cells throughout the body. So. Yeah, that was, that was the question I had. Yeah, the, the not so much, you know, angle, it's how close it is to the, the tissue. Okay. And if you think about like the rotator cuff

is a three dimensional structure from front to back, you know, and it kind of wraps around the humeral head. So depending. And the, you know, a tear or injury can be anywhere along there. So depending on where you have the injury. Theoretically, yes. The closer you have it to that tissue, the better effect it's going to have. But that's sometimes hard unless, you know, like, if I, if I, you know, was doing an ultrasound and knew exactly where the, the injury was, then we can place

the device closer to that. But in general, when you're doing, you know, a knee or a shoulder, and if you get a, you know, dose in the front and the side, in the back, if you want to, if you even want to do that, you can move it around and circumferentially. Same with the knee. Right. So if somebody has knee arthritis, really, what compartment is it affecting? You know,

usually it'll, it'll affect maybe one area more than the other. So if somebody has a medial meniscal tear or the pain on the inside of their knee or some arthritis there, then maybe you want to get more dose, you know,

on the inside. If they have patellofemoral, you know, so underneath the kneecap, if there's arthritis there, if they have pain going downstairs, those types of things, or has, you know, crepitus behind the knee, then more of a frontal approach, maybe you spend more time in that position. Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Thank you. I'm sorry. Yeah, you can move it around. So even if you were saying like, hey, I'm going to do, you're 20 minutes to a certain area

or a knee, right. Then you could spend maybe five or 10 minutes in different positions. And you can move it around. You can move it around a little bit or move your knee. Now as far as the, the beds they are going or a larger panel. The benefit of that is you're getting more dose systemically. Right. So definitely I like, like the one I have, you know, we have multiple at home. The one I use, I use mine twice a day. So I do about seven to 10 minutes twice a day. Current knock on wood.

Currently I'm not, I'm not having any specific injuries. And I think, you know, because I've been doing this for, you know, a year now straight, I think my injuries have dramatically diminished. Okay. So I have a hyper ligamentous. I don't know if you've heard of EDS or Ehlers Danlos. Ehlers Danlos syndrome. So if you look at my thumb, I can bend it back this way. I can touch my, my thumb to my wrist, my elbows

hyperextend. So I'm, you know, I'd say I'm good at yoga, bad at football, and I'm a pretty big guy, but, you know, about 6, 61 2, 15 or so. So I can put on muscle, but my joints break down and this by doing this every day. My injuries in the past year have, like I said, I'm. I'm pretty happy with it. They have dramatically diminished. And, you know, Chris has been working with me a little bit on like bench press and other things like that. My shoulder sublu if I go too heavy. But I did,

you know, for the first time in my Life, and I'm 50. I did 225 for eight reps. Like, I've never even come close to that because my shoulders wouldn't take it. So I've gotten really strong and I feel like a lot more stable. And if you look at some of the data, it's really interesting on what this is doing to collagen. So

they've, they've done pretty cool studies where they actually biopsied the tissues that have been irradiated and they looked under the microscope and all this new collagen production, and that's very obvious with skin. Right. This is used in a lot in dermatology, but they're seeing this in deeper tissues as well. So I think for patients that are a bit, you know, hyper ligamentous or lax or prone to ligament tendon injuries, this is a fantastic tool that in the short term, you know,

I look at the different. I got to have three groups of where we use this. One is a patient that's injured that needs to heal. So we have that one is, you know, the, the athlete that wants to like truly improve like their performance. And then another is wellness. Right. So that's why I love these devices at home because you use them. Like I don't have any injury right now, but I don't want to get injured.

Right. So I'm continuously doing it and for me it's at this point it's almost like an anti aging, you know, they don't, people don't like that term. But a health, you know, say healthy aging tool to keep me, you know, functional, relatively pain free. And I feel like it's really supporting my tissues. Just like if you were to take a supplement or if you're doing exercise or getting really good sleep, right. Or great

nutrition, this is part of the wellness. It becomes a wellness habit once you're out of say like an acute issue. And that's where the larger, the beds and those types of things, you can afford it. It's pretty nice, right? Because then you don't have to keep moving that, that device around. But the hard part is the beds are really expensive. They're really big, right. You're going to need like a 220 outlet for, you know, the powerful ones.

And then so you have to find where you're going to put in your house, in your garage. And then if you have it in a clinic or if you haven't in a, you know, like for a medical clinic. For me, we don't want our patients, not that I don't, we don't care about them, but we don't want the patients coming in there every day or having to have to. Right. So that's the challenge. Now if it's in a gym setting or training setting where you have people coming in, say three, four or five times a week,

then a bed makes a lot of sense, right. Because they can get that microdosing. If it's, if they're only coming in once a week or a couple of times a month, then I don't feel like it's, it's the best tool in that setting. So speaking of that gym scenario. What. About pre training versus post training? I think there's value on both of those, isn't there? Yeah, you know, it's, the data is a little bit challenging. You know, there is a

really good benefit of preconditioning, right. So if you use it for preconditioning, if you're going to train or you're going to perform, right. There can be a Dramatic improvement in your, you know, time of Exercise limits your VO2 max changes. There's a lot of physiologic changes that are beneficial that can occur 20 to 30 minutes after getting a full body, you know, dose or regional dose of, of red and near infrared light therapy. Now those

benefits, Chris, that's the hard part. They kind of carry over also to post exercise. So if you use it for like a training session, you're going to have better, you know, results in recovery. You're not going to have as much, you know, doms and all those things. Now you can get both in the literature and then when I've used it, like I noticed a tremendous difference and if anybody has, you know, the panels at home or in the gym when I work out and if I work out really hard, my legs always get

sore. Like that's my, my quads are. But where I get the like worst doms. So the late onset muscle soreness, two days after, like a heavy leg day, I'm miserable and that's virtually gone away. Now if I do the, the light therapy after that, after the workout, 10 minutes stand in front of it, you know, quads exposed and I turn around hamstrings and, and glutes and two days later it might be 10% of what it used to be. And I've gone back and forth. So I'll exercise and I won't do it and I'll

pay for it. It's really interesting. Now some of those benefits, I haven't tested it, you know, that much myself because usually I'll do it afterwards. But some of those benefits have been shown in the literature to occur even if you do preconditioning. So the, the potential is like if you have to choose and you're a, you know, performance athlete, it kind of makes sense to do it before. If you have the option of doing both, you're not going to hurt yourself.

Yeah, the preconditioning seems to make a lot of sense to me because you're also, I see because of the elevation and the window of elevation, you're obviously going to be at peak then post, but you're also amplifying the effects. It makes a lot of sense to me. I haven't been able to experiment just based on the timing of my it fitting in my lifestyle to be able to do it in the pre period. So I don't, I just don't know at this point

personally, but that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, that's exactly why I can't do it like I, because it's at home, I don't have the, at the, at the gym and you know, just time, by the time I get to the gym, I'm ready, I want to go work out.

It's hard to like say, okay, I'm going to take 20 minutes. And now for professional athletes and you know, different settings, I think it could, it could make a lot of lot more sense to do that because you're getting the benefits during exercise, during the performance and you're also getting those post exercise recovery benefits. Anthony's got a question. My understanding is it increases the flow of electrons. So that's going to help with

redux. If would it make sense then to try to do it in the earlier part of the day because of the circadian effects of higher levels of nad? And have you looked into using bicarbonate with it to maintain more neutral ph for the mitochondria to improve the effects of the red light? I have not

looked at the bicarbonate but definitely there are changes. There's some really interesting studies on circadian rhythm effects and what they showed is there's certain mitochondria and in certain cells that will be more active in the, in the morning and so that's why do you mind, you know, looking at some of the theory? I do twice a day and it's, it's four different effects. So

in the morning it's more of a energy boost. Right. So when you, you're activating so those four, those photons hit that cytochrome C oxidase, they disassociate nitric oxide, you get improved vasodilation, blood flow, oxygen binds to that and whatever you can do to, for that oxidative phosphorylation, that electron transport chain you're going to produce instead of when nitric oxide is bound to that cytochrome C oxidase, you produce about 2

ATP per cycle. When you have oxygen bound, it produces 32, you get a 16 fold increase in efficiencies. The certain mitochondria in the body with the circadian rhythm are going to be activated in, you know, if you have a normal sleep pattern between say 11 and 8am and 11am and so in the morning you're going to get a huge boost of energy. It's like having a, you know, full body like coffee, caffeine energy boost gets you through the, the day. In the evening.

There's a lot of other pathways and they're still elucidating them, but there's a lot of Other pathways that start to be activated, especially optical pathways. And what we're seeing is some of the parasympathetic benefits. What I notice if anybody uses, and this has been shown in the data and also I've tested it myself and it's very obvious in my case and I've talked to other patients and other folks is looking

at your sleep patterns. So if you do it a couple hours before bedtime and if you don't do it, I notice a really big difference in the amount of REM sleep that I get. The deep sleep, I have OURA ring, so that's what I'm tracking. And then heart rate variability. All are measures of high quality sleep and they are dramatically different if I use it in the evening. So I like that kind of bimodal therapy. And so I try to get. It's hard for me to sit

still. I'm not a person that just likes to hang out and sit around. So if I can get 10 minutes a.m. and 10 minutes p.m. that's a fantastic dose for me. Getting it in the eyes. There's a lot of discussion of we have eye protection and those types of things. There are optical pathways and I feel like especially around

the circadian rhythms, both morning and evening that are really important. They did a recent study in the University of Pittsburgh Medical center looking at red light, near infrared light, whole body radiation. And there was a five fold decrease in blood clots after surgeries. It's a huge difference. And these were animal models and what they noticed afterwards, they didn't realize that was

happening afterwards. They looked at it. And the blind mice or the blind rats, they did not see the benefits of the, the reduction in blood clot risk. And so they don't understand exactly what's happening. But there's obviously in that setting there's a significant optical pathway that's being, you know, encountered. So it's something to think about. So when we talk about using eyewear like protection, I would just close your eyes. This is an

extremely safe device. You know, it's not a laser. It's not going to, you know, cause burns, especially with the time limits that we were talking about. Don't look directly at the diodes, but if you close your eyes and, and get that red and near infrared light, you're going to get some central nervous system benefits. So yeah, I think remember reading about the Jeffrey Institute doing some research with red light shined into the eye.

I think it was a low wavelength, like 680 to 720 and improvements in dry eye and differentiation of color. Yeah. And it's positively affecting the rods and the cones. They're very energy dependent, ATP dependent and so they're, you know, probably this. The first indication that's covered by insurance was oral ulcers in chemotherapy patients in children. So it's called oral mucositis. So now that's the gold standard of treatment. It looks like a lollipop or a,

what's it called? I forget losing the name right now, but it's kind of like a lollipop or popsicle and it's a red light popsicle with near infrared. And for little kids, they can suck on that and it helps with oral ulcers and healing post chemotherapy radiation therapy. The second indication that's going to be covered by insurance is for children in myopia. And so that device is like stage four testing right now. So it's definitely helpful

for the eyes. But those are very controlled wavelengths and very controlled doses and they're, they're very short time periods and more powerful lights that are very focused. But with this you're going to see those benefits as well. So in the comments section here, one of our members who has a red vibe panel by the way, says he has myopia and it does work. So right here on this call.

I've. Got some commentary on the ramping up in the energy as well as the sleep. So I follow the same protocol as yourself morning and evening and I also have more recently employed a PEMF mat at the same time. And in the morning I do that at a high frequency energy frequency and then in the evening low to ramp down. But

I have gone like I just. One week I've been taking massive amounts of caffeine due to the high stress in my life and to get through my days and I just stopped having anything other than my cup of coffee in the morning. I was having energy drinks all day long like, and I was like, I feel great with this. And then here's my sleep. This is my HRV value by year. And you can see this downward trend with the stress level of my business.

And then all of a sudden this year it spikes to the highest it's ever been. Immediately when I haven't completely remediated, you know, the issues in my life. You can also see that on my resting heart rate. You send this lowest it's ever been. We can also see it on my, my breathing respiration rate, lowest it's ever been. Those are by years. That's not like. And so obviously I'm showing the Short term with this year being the first, you

know, just the first quarter, the first few months. But that's when I've employed these changes. So. Yeah, that's pretty cool. It's amazing. I'd love to see what your protocol is for the pemf. I've not. I've not been in. We have it. I just haven't been using it. So that would be cool to add that into the mix. Yeah, we've got a line of a few things that we've been testing and making some changes to that for a wellness. A wellness line of products to complement the red light and other

stuff that we're in. Peptides that we're doing. So me and my wife are working on that. Anthony, did you have any other ones read about? Actually it was discussed at one of the grand rounds meetings with Dr. Seeds. The application of red light for tinnitus and pairing it with the human and peptide because it crosses the blood brain barrier. Have you done any research with using red light for tinnitus? No, not. Not really seeing too much in our practice. You know, mostly musculoskeletal,

joint and spine issues. So really haven't done much with tinnitus. Worked with some docs like with TMJ and that's been really effective. But that's a combination with like regenerative medicine injection. So that's probably the closest to tinnitus or the earth that we've gotten. Okay, Ben, I see your hand raised, but haven't had a chance to give Derek or John a chance to ask any questions yet. So I'm going to do that first. Derek, do you have any questions?

We'll move on. John. John, do you got any. I do have a question. Okay, perfect. I was actually walking around my house listening. My bad. So I. I will say for other people that. That didn't hear it. I have my Opia. It does work for it. I don't use this strong of a light. I guess my question is exactly what, what level of like red light and green light should I use? Because the vision therapist I went to gave me like a makeshift light

and I just stare straight into it, eyes open. But obviously the, the panel I have is much stronger. So I was just curious as to what amount of time you would spend with your eyes closed, pretty much looking at the panels. Is it also have a green light panel too? Is it the. The six, the 600 panel that you. That you have, Derek? Well, not to look back, I went with a different company local and I actually picked it Up.

But yeah, it does. It's. It's a mito red light, has like 218 lights and it has like 11 different settings, but it does red light from like 600 to like, high. I haven't even looked at it. I just turned the thing on and use it. You know, I'm 30 and I'm probably younger than most people with this, but I can say it helps with wrinkles. It helps with, like, if, you know, I was an

alcoholic, it. I don't look like one anymore. You know, so I'm all about the red light for the body, but also my vision because I was seeing a vision therapist for it. Yeah. What, what, what, what measurement to sit in front of my bed? Yeah, it really depends. I mean, the, they're very detailed studies for myopia. So they are very specific to the, you know, the dose that you're getting.

Depending on like the. It's very sensitive to the distance that you're from the device than the device itself because there's a big range of, like, energy, how much irradiance that light source is giving. Because you can get a, you know, an LED from, from Amazon that you could sit in front of it for two hours and it's not going to give any dose. Right. It's the same wavelength. It's just like we talked about

with, you know, it's like taking a 1mg Advil that you can take, then you're not going to get any benefit from it. It's the same medicine, it's the same wavelength, the same color, but there's no energy. So it really depends on, on how much you're. You're getting.

When you look at treatments for myopia, if you were using, you know, the, the red vibe device for that, and it's not specifically, you know, built for that, but if you're using it for that, you would need under like two minutes in front of it because the dose is so significant. Right. So it's not a device that's built specifically for myopia. It

can help that with that. But when you're looking at the dosing and affecting like tendons and ligaments and muscles and tissues, you want a much more powerful device or light and more dosing into the tissue. So a longer period of time in front of it. For skin, like somebody, you know, these masks that they have, the red light masks and some of them had near infrared, they have green, they have, you know, yellow or blue lights in those. Those are very low power. And. But for the Skin,

Right. The light can, can get to it very easily. They're not to penetrate a lot of tissue. So you can get benefits with wrinkles and other things with, with those pants, the face masks. But oftentimes you're looking at 30, 40 minutes of dosing time where if you get in front of, you know, the red vive panels, again, three to five minutes in front of that, you're going to get a really healthy dose for skin, for hair. Okay.

She made like. Sorry, sorry. Go ahead. Oh, no, go. I've just noticed the same thing with, you know, I'm 50 years old and I. A couple of years ago I was noticing I just started to have some a spots, you know, probably from like sun exposure and other things. And I almost never. This is pretty cool. I almost never put it on my face. I don't. I might have done it like one or two times. I just don't do that. It's always like I have low back issues. I have L5S1 arthritis, disc

herniation, 4 or 5. I have a little bit of listhesis there. So I have some low back issues. And that's where I focus most of the energy. And that pain has gone away. But I noticed in my face, my skin looks better. Like I can't even find that 8 spot anymore. This is like something that, over the course of a year that went away. And so there's the systemic response, like it's rejuvenating the system, which is totally fascinating. Right. So to recap, you'll say with. With your device or a similar

device on like, say 25 to 50% brightness. 2 to 2 ish minutes. Yeah, 2 to 3 minutes. You shouldn't need too much more, you know, R. When we look at ours, when you're three inches, you know, away, we're well above 100 milliwatts per centimeter squared energy. So that's kind of a gauge, you know, at 6 inches away, we're around 80 to 100 milliwatts per centimeter squared. So still a very powerful device. And then as you start to get farther away, it dramatically diminishes. It really depends on how

close you are to it. But if you're close to the panel with myopia eye issues, you don't need a lot of dose. So it's not a. It's not a long exposure. And even for skin, it's not a long exposure. Three to five minutes should be plenty. Well, how I do it is about four minutes on my face, and then I'll Stand up and get my, my thigh because that's my injured area. And then I'll

finish my session and I'll do that twice a day. Because my, my assumption was the face skin is thinner, it doesn't need as much. Yeah, yeah, Erp. And that's what led to this. It works very well together. Yeah, yeah, we do. PRP stem cells, regenerative medicine. It's a beautiful combination even before. Right. So you activate the stem cells. They did a very interesting study

where they took peripheral blood. They counted the, you know, we can count stem cells in the blood by antigens markers on the cells cell surface. They're called CD34. So they're CD34

positive cells. And then they looked at macrophages, which are a type of white blood cell that could be, you know, promote healing. And they irradiated just the lower leg, the tibia, for 15 minutes. And then two hours afterwards they drew blood again. And within two hours on average there was about a 300 increase in circulating stem

cells. And that lasted anywhere from a day to four days. So what we like to do is if somebody's getting a PRP or cell therapy injection, we want to kind of dose them before have that massive increase. So then when we're taking blood and spinning it down, we're getting more stem that product and then also you want to do it afterwards because then you're continuously kind of reinforcing that, that healing. So that's just one of the ways that the

red mite works. We talked about mitochondrial activation, we talked about stem cells. And the last thing we really haven't talked about is pain reduction, inflammation. It works on the capsaicin receptors in the nerve cells. And it, so that's, if you get in front of a red light panel and you feel better right away, it's because of that. So it's not magic, it's not fixing things, it's reducing maybe some blood flow effects that is kind of removing some inflammatory mediators in the area.

But one of the powerful effects that it has is it's down regulating and modulating the capsaicin receptor, the pain receptor in the nerves. So it feels good. So it actually acts as an analgesic. And so that's why patients, if you get 5, 10 minutes in front of it and you're like, dang, my pain went away. A big part of it is that the cool thing is though you keep doing that, those capsaicin receptors start to change their morphology. There's more calcium in the cells and they start

to Change over time, they start to heal. And so chronic neuropathic pain can actually get better. So it actually modulates how those nerves behave. And patients that have chronic pain, they're oftentimes their nerves are chronically inflamed. So it's called neural inflammation. And so you're actually, by doing that, you're changing that process. So over the course of weeks to months, they will, that pain will be reduced and it will stay reduced.

And the nerves can actually improve their function. They can remyelinate. Chronic painful neuropathies can improve. So it's really fascinating. But that's where the beauty of the microdosing and continuous exposure is really important. Some absolute gold in everything that you went through there. And man, I appreciate you taking the time with all of us today. It's just really gracious of you. I'm hoping to make some time for just two more questions. Cause we didn't get

to John and Ben. Ben's had his hand raised for a little bit. So Tex, if you want to build. More physical resilience in your life, you. Need to start with a firm foundation. That's why I only wear barefoot shoes. Their wide toe box, zero drop heel and flexible frames allow me to comfortably strengthen my foot every day. So while promoting optimal body mechanics, postural alignment and movement, listeners can get 10% off by using the code resilience at barefoot store. That's B E A R foot

store for 10% off with code resilience. Start improving how you move today with barefoot shoes. Ben, your question? Yeah, I was, I was curious. You said you worked at the spine clinic, right? Or in on spinal issues as well. And years ago I was prone and landed on my forehead and had numbness in my arms for about a week. And every now and then I'll get a little bit of numbness

in my right hand still. And I was, I was. Guess I was kind of curious with that type of injury because I can't imagine that it's something other than a spinal injury. Right. Somewhere. Have you, have you seen effects with that? And would you treat the spine with that or more of the. The hand where I actually get the numbness? Yeah. So that would be again, that is, you know, our wheelhouse. And so the proper diagnosis is what you need an evaluation by a spine specialist. We'd evaluate your

neck. Obviously if that injury caused that disturbance in the limb, then my at least thought is let's rule out something structural discogenic. Is there some nerve compromised, nerve root injury? Was there a traction injury on the Brachial plexus and then evaluate that limb. And there's specific tests that we do, both physical examination, you know, imaging, sometimes emg, nerve conduction studies to assess kind of, you know, what's happening with the nerve. And then absolutely like

that. What we see, the combination of regenerative therapies. Again, we have the. I have a three legged stool of regenerative medicine. Like you have to have the three legs. So the stool works, is proper diagnosis, you know, precision diagnosis, precision biologics, what you're using in the precision delivery. So if, when we have our injury determined, then you want to put the medicine in that area. So is it a disc? Is it just the nerve? You know, is

it a facet joint? Right, we have facet joints. Could they be inflamed and irritated? Was it more like a traction or, you know, compression injury of the nerve? So we want to assess all those things and then this. Now we heard today how the red light, near infrared is going to help all of those things. Now if you can get, if you can get the benefit by just doing the non invasive, like put the light on and it goes away.

Hallelujah. Right? That's fantastic. That's the best. We don't have to do anything, but if it doesn't, then let's dive a little bit deeper and then, you know, look structurally what's going on. Okay. And that's why the radiology, as a radiologist, I'm super biased. So take everything I say with the grant. I like to see what's happening. Like I want to see, what's the mri, what's the ultrasound? You know what, what, why are we having this issue?

And then let's go after it and fix it. And then why I'm an evangelist for regenerative medicine is I've taken probably 5,000 before and after MRIs showing that it heals. So it's not just that. The patient tells me like, hey, this was amazing. It feels good. I'm like, I'm a doubter, right? I'm like, I'm skeptic. Why are you telling me that? Like, my first cases, I scanned it again and I'm like, holy crap, it looks brand new. Like it's not supposed to

happen. Right? And that's what got me to regenerative medicine. So that's what we see with all these structures. So if you can identify it, that's the first step. I do appreciate that you are always trying to disprove your theory, if you will. Doing those before and after. Awesome. Well, this has been really great experience. I want to thank everybody for joining and especially Rahul. Thanks for taking the time out of your weekend to

answer the questions from the group. Really, really appreciate it, man. Great questions. So intelligent. What an intelligent group. It's super cool and I learned a lot as well. So I'm looking forward to the PEMF data and I'm gonna kind of bug you on that, but. All right. Wonderful weekend. All right, Chris, I'm going to show. You what we're doing today. Okay. Oh, nice. So I'm at a strongman competition. I'm just helping out. You know how we are

with whoever the competitors are. We just help out with whatever's going on. It's only a small event. It's cold as hell out here. Yeah, it looks like fun, though. Yeah, we're doing a mammoth bar, so we're expecting way over. I'm gonna bet over a 700 pound dead though, today. All right. Probably over 800. Sadly, I'm not part of it, but I'll do. I'll be doing 700. Probably about three months, or at least that's the aim. All right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm

gonna follow up on that. Yeah, you keep, keep kicking me in the ass, telling me to get there. All right, will do. Thanks, Chris. Have a good one.