What brought you here? Well, I mean, the legend of Chris Duffin. Chris Duffin's feet. That's what brought me here. So that's for sure. That's the first time I've heard that. Well, you know, it won't be the last. But that's one thing I did not expect to get into, like, the footstep and my coaching is the amount of people on Instagram and that message, me asking for very lewd and unusual requests for my feed and different things like that. You too? All right. Probably different reasons.
We hit a. If you get to see his feed later, you'll hit a different genre of foot people. Yes, indeed. Yeah. What did you. What did you expect? You know, it's. That's the thing. So I started off with this. I think people get into the online aspect because what's ironic now is that people kind of backend. And I think I was probably towards the end of people who actually were coaching in person, and they're like, oh, I want to go and do some online stuff to, like, expand that capacity. But most
people now are like, they just start off online. It's like, oh, I want to be an online coach. Like, do you even coach people? I will have people that ask me, how should I get started on, like, well, what are your clients like? Well, I haven't really worked with anybody. I'm like, what. How do you add a problematic interface in when you haven't even mastered the ability to communicate, to motivate, like, to get points across in the easiest. When it's,
like, in person, like, that's just baffling. Well, because there's this whole nonverbal communication. I can read certain things. You pick up certain aspects like, oh, that's. That's a weird movement, but you have to do that all basically blind. And so the irony of that is that that's kind of been the move in some sense. But people who are just online, it's like, it's really nice to work with someone in person. It's a treat, you know? But I guess I had a few years of working with
people, about five, six years, and I kind of started to notice some consistencies. And so I was like, okay, I think I could make a stab at, like, doing some type of online, because I'd also. I'd also done the math at that point. I was just a personal trainer, basically, and realized that I can do this much times, this much, and that's going to get to that point, and
that's like 50, 60 hours a week. In the gym, not including other stuff. And I was like, okay, so let me start to think about, you know, how to do that other aspect of, like, reaching out online. And so that ended up in a situation where. So it's almost like, you know, you start with, like, there's a pseudonym in the barefoot sprinter, all that stuff. But that's like, I got that. I backed into all of that. It was not like I started off with this
vision of this thing. I was like, I just want to go and do this. So I did some, like, online business coaching programs. I'm like, okay, that's how you learn some things. You make a website, you do some stuff, you have a niche, you work with. But the reality was, in my real people I was working with in my gym and the clients I was working with, I started to just know commonalities. And first I started with my body, like, ankle sprains, foot problems that led to knee pain, back issues, shoulder
issues. And I started to notice commonalities in that between me and the people I was working with. And so it became pretty quickly, hey, take your shoes off. Let's just at least do some stuff barefoot. And it wasn't until the pandemic happened that, you know, I've been a few years kind of exploring some of this stuff, but I'm like, I was at University of North Carolina. I lived in Chap at the time. I was living in North Carolina, Chapel
Hill, and the university had this massive turf field. It was, like, two football fields wide, and so they had a full track. So I just started running on that because it was the pandemic, and things were shut down, but I'd still go out. And like, I showed you earlier, that gimbal thing is, like, 80 bucks I kind of got. And I was like, gave it to my buddies, hey, run beside
me. Film this. And so kind of got into that. And so then it turned into, like, oh, this niche, this little, like, gimmick, more or less, that people say, oh, there's this guy running barefoot. I remember I had a few TikTok videos that took off, and I was running around one time. I just would bring my people out there to go work out, because I just really enjoyed working out outside. And I ran by the sports team, and they go, oh,
that's the barefoot. That's the guy. The barefoot TikTok guy. And I was like, oh, I just, like, it was funny because you catch it, and so then that. You kind of play into that a little bit. And then it turned into. I mean, there's other parts of the body that I enjoy to train and work with, but people on the Internet just kind of see one specific thing, and so then you become this thing, and people. What's ironic is that it starts off as a gimmick, ends up being an actual, like,
expertise level. Because I go to this thing because I had some experience with it. But then people start asking you. People perceive you to be the foot guy, so they ask you foot questions. And then over a few years, you get thousands of questions. Yeah, you have. You're engrossed in it, and you're researching it, and it forces a level of expertise, Right? Yeah. So then that, you know, at some capacity, it expands on that. So now I
get to hang out with you and figure your feet. So it's fun. We never got to the strength training today. I was looking forward to doing some strength training, but band. I had some fun sprinting. That was a good time. I am. Yeah, we got out to some hill sprints. We're just moving. You are so fast. Like, I think the first. Now the first one is for the second one, it's like, you spring, you catch up to me so fast. Because I'm trying to run backwards and film
you. You can see in your face, you're like, oh, shit, he's not going that fast. Oh, no. I had to dive out of the way. We'll have to share, like, because I ducked to the right because I, like, I bombed past. Now you were running like, you know, I. You. I had the advantage, obviously, but you're. The best to, like. You go. You are explosive. Did you play sports and stuff growing up? I wrestled and I did cross country. Now, I was horrible at cross country. And then track and
field, I was pretty damn good sprinter. Yeah. But I did the 15, the 800, the 1500, and the 3000 as well, because I didn't understand specificity. And I did cross country to get ready for wrestling, but I was always an explosive person, but I never played an explosive sport or had the opportunity to. All my training was exactly the opposite. So my mom was very anti football. So you'd been a fullback or a
liner. And then when we did wrestling, we did this on the knees, like football, you know, practice. And all the football players were like, what are you doing? Because I. I just dominated things like that. So. Really? Yeah, being able to change directions, move really fast, and just. Well, just pile through. Pile through, people, if I needed to. If you could go back to high school or middle school with your. Not, like, knowing you know, now but like if you could go back and like choose a
different set of sports, what do you think you would have played? Good question. I don't think I would have done cross country because I know that I can now gotten in shape for wrestling and other methods. But I'm not sure that I would have done football regardless because of the impact on the brain in the body and so yeah, outside of that and then I probably would have just focused on sprints. I really would have liked to have seen what I could have accomplished because I'm a very
explosive. Like people don't realize that. Really, really like I'm talking. There's this. What I think is really cool is there's like a. So I kind of break it and then there are probably somebody smarter that said this. But like I kind of think of like cognitive athletes. People that think a lot, they like, they think before they act and people act before they think. In some sense they have such an alignment with
their body that they just go and not like. And you know, ideally you're kind of embodied and you're acting and thinking at the same time but you trust your body. So I'm watching you. It's as though you're moving and your eyes are now having to look for plates that catch up to the fact that your body is so explosive. You're just boom in this thing. And it was really impressive to watch
it. Like that's the sign of an athlete is just this like, you know, this unimpaired equanimity that just you just throw yourself into something like that's impressive. Let's dive into the world of optimizing your overall health. With pushing my physical limits, I encountered significant reductions in my health and I reached out to Merrick Health as the premier
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resilience for 10% off. Yeah, people are always fascinated when they see me move because they're very to just have perceptions about like who and what you are based on, you know, what they've seen or how you look and whether it's jumping or moving or whatever. It's always like, people are always just very, very surprised. So do you do any type of training to support those abilities or is it just kind of been like the way you've just pretty sustained
that over the years? I've sustained that over the years, but my training is often quite unconventional in the fact of like movement selection and things like that. And I have different seasons where I just enjoy doing things. Like for randomly, you know, last year I did a couple months of, you know, box jumps and you know, within a couple of weeks I was jumping on a 48 inch box. You know, not bad for 250 pounds. Not bad. Amazing.
And. But nothing. Not super impressive either. But, you know, I'm doing lots of odd things like, you know, quad fallbacks and just, you just name it. Like, there's always an interesting selection of movement to make sure I'm moving in different ranges and movement capacities that people aren't aware. Like, I'm sometimes known for, you know, some of the circus act stuff
that I do. But there's, it's just, to me, I. I need it more for the engagement of my mind than it's like a specific like, thing that I'm trying to develop in that I enjoy it. I'm like, oh, I'll do it. And then I'm like, I have to chase it. You've seen that today. Like, if I do something, I have to. I become obsessed with things. Yeah. I become absolutely obsessed with anything that I. That I do, that I have to chase that. But we're supposed to be interviewing. You ask a lot of questions.
Yeah. Do you find that you now have to be mindful, like, are there things in life that you would like to pursue? But you're like, I can't even think about entertaining the beginning of that. Because if I take, you know, if I go do this, you know, like, I just, I don't have the bandwidth to be able to obsess about that thing. Have you had to organize yourself that way? Yeah, I've had to do that quite a bit
in my life. And so like a lot of people, like, oh, you hunted when you grew up and you're in the Pacific Northwest, why don't you go hunting? And I'm like, do you know what that would mean for me? Yeah, I do not have the time, resources to. No, you just like, you know, go hunting on a weekend. Like, no, you do not. I would have all the things. I would do all the things like, no. So I have to. I do too many things as is. But I'm Actually way more self limiting than people
think. Yeah. I was gonna ask what you. What if you dabbled in jiu jitsu or something, but now I could see how like that would be easily just. Or did you actually. Did you get it out of your system when you're younger? Like, you know, I did the wrestling thing because, you know, and then moved on. I'm ready to do something else. Well, I love to challenge and push myself. Mm. Right. But at the same time, I don't have anything to prove. That's a. I got one question about that, but keep going.
So I think that that's an interesting. Like, that's how I'm able to walk away from things. Okay. You know, a lot of people can't walk away from competitive lifting. They can't. Like, there's these things that they, their identity is wrapped up into doing that or, you know, proving or the perception around those things. And for me, that's not a driver and that it seems to be a driver for a lot more people than I. A lot of population, honestly. So.
And I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. That's just an observation of. Do you feel that. That ability to walk away. Okay. Actually that probably correlates your ability to go 100%. Because what I've seen is that people who get stuck in this middle world of like they're kind of 50, 60, they're half heartedly pursuing something, they can't leave because they never felt like they really did their best. And so they get stuck in this thing. But your ability to like
100% go after it when you. If and when the time feels like, all right, it's time to walk away, you know, that nothing was left on the table relative to your investment in it. Does that seem fair? If I died, I would be okay. Well, obviously I'd be okay. I'd be dead. But the fear of dying does not bother me because I, I have put everything on the plate in my life and I can. I don't want to, like, don't get me wrong, like, let's not read
that wrong. Right. But very intentionally with my life, like, I push myself to my limits so that I have that moment of discovery of who I, who I am to myself, not elsewhere. And so I don't have this level of regret of like looking back. Well, I wish I did this or that. Sure, there's things that I could have done better, but I know that I put everything into the things that I did. That seems to be like A very valuable thing for like just even my time spent with you is like
go all in innocent. And people say that but it's like would you say that's a preserved aspect of your personality, that I am committed and like even when you were a kid and manage that or have you learned to like really apply yourself? I find that I was, I was a coincidence of cross country runner growing up. I ran track and cross country. I saw the 400 and if I wanted to be a sprinter but always conserving, always since I was like, I could run. So I ended up in
this distance thing where I kind of was like seven. I got really good at endurance running which is consistently 70, 80% for you know, obviously not the top top guys. But like. And so that for me has been a direction
I moved in. But do you feel like that ability. Because I could see on the other end where you, you go 110% which is you overextend yourself to a sin like so that you know, would you see if you see that spectrum, is that something you've learned to pull back from or like an intuitive feeling of like this is where I need. This is like going all in. Yeah,
well I'm certainly not recommending that approach to people. Right. As a whole, like everything is tempered by who you are and how you want to live. Right. I'm just, that is myself. But it's also why I've done a significant amount of damage to myself. Right. It's why maybe I didn't achieve what I could have done if I was more reserved in my training and lifting and so
on. But I'm okay with all that. I think it's a trade off because it seems like, okay, let's just say there's a proclivity to go 120% or 80% just broadly so. Like the. But the 120% comes in the problem when you over leverage and you overextend yourself to the point where you're not actually doing the best you could because there is, you're not whatever, not recovering, you're injuring yourself, etc. And the 80% is like you're not doing the best you could because you
sell more to give in the tank. And so what I think Even if that's 200% and 10%, obviously the more than 100% is kind of conceptual but you know, in a sense of leveraging energy, you don't have to do that. Like I think that's an interesting, I guess paradigm to be able to think about it's like, because there are people, for example, the David Goggins of the world that go, well, the message behind David Goggins, stay hard, work hard, like
you have more to give. You know, when you feel like you ready, quit, you're only 40%. A lot of people need to heed that, hear that? But there's a lot of people that, whether it's the addicts or something that like you're not going to. That's what you said earlier is like, I don't have the need to prove myself like that. I, there's, there's something there which is interesting, but I have a question on that. But like, you know, do you like
that paradigm? Does that seem like it fits? Well, what is your thoughts on, you know, that, that kind of David Goggins esque, you know, approach or mentality. It's valuable for me because that in general is the. So recently I was, I was working with just a sprint coach came through and I got to have a session on track and there was this feeling of like, oh, that's what it means to put force in the ground. You hit the ground, you're pulling through. There's an aggression, there's a plus 10%. And
Jiu Jitsu, for example, I find this has always been. I never use a physicality. Like I might be 62 and 200 plus pounds, but I don't act like, I don't move like it, I play. You know, the closest thing I did for physicality as a kid was like church street basketball. But I'd always do fadeaways. I've never like lean into the fact that like I can be strong. And so it chronically leads me to, you know, I think and
there's, I can keep going. But in jiu jitsu, for example, it's harder for me to like lean in to be not overly aggressive, but assertive in a sense where like I don't get. There's. It leads to this level of like what ifs that kind of stay in there. And it's harder to walk away from something because it's like I could keep going, but it's like, yeah, but the answer was to push 10% harder back when the timing mattered. Because that's what I find is like there's a
hesitation in action. So like you have a window of certain things. Like you can make a move, you could go do things, you make an investment, whatever. But there's this hesitation where it's like. And that like for you, you didn't watching your Sprint. There was no hesitation. You just move and you trust that. Like, when I hit the ground, I'm not withholding anything, because what was that in your thinking? And obviously there's risk there, but it's like, on the proper foundation.
That's something I look at. I'm like, I want to move more towards that. And so when I hear David Goggin. But the alternative is I see him running away from his own demons, and it's like, the hardest thing for him is just to sit down. Yeah, that's. That's. That's one of my perceptions. There is like, there's something there that he's also not dealing with, but also, like, would you have somebody that doesn't have the capability to achieve something from pushing
performance in those directions to push themselves on that? Hard on it. That's the hard thing, is the thing that's ironic because as I think we mentioned earlier, there's like, hard is an ever. Like, truly hard. Hard is a mindset. But it's, like, difficult, I think, is it's being. Putting in effort without making it hard. Because, like, what is hard? It's like, that's a perception of a thing. Like, something you might do is hard. There are things that are
technically difficult like this. There are things that require expertise. There are things that require effort, but none of those have to be hard unless you perceive them to be hard. And so, like, hard in some capacity is like, if you chase hard. I was thinking about this the other day. I was out on the field, and there was this coach, you know, trying to. He was putting extra reps with one of the track athletes, trying to get her
to go. And there's this. There's this performance we go through. It's like, she's the. He's the athlete. He's the coach. She's the athlete. She's supposed to do this. And he, like, she's supposed to be working hard. And so how do you know when you're working hard? Well, when you're tired. And so if, you know, if we're not careful, we don't measure, like, the growth, the thing we want, and we just measure hard. Yeah, that's my problem. Yeah, because it's like, we should be
also trying to be lazy. We should be trying to find the fastest route to a desired outcome. At the same time, like, when I say, hey, I pushed myself to the max on those things and I broke myself. I was pushing the limits, but it wasn't
specifically just to be hard. Like, I was really thoughtful and I did things very different and intelligently and I cut so much from my life so that I could focus on some very specific aspects because those things were very much aligned with who I am and my goals and the way that I want to live and express myself versus just like choosing something hard to. Be hard,
arbitrarily hard. And so the clarification, I guess the way I perceive individuals on the Internet is that the people who have a following, let's just say I kind of think of this underlying idea marketplace and people in a sense, Superman, Batman, these kind of archetypes that we play out, you know, would have been like Greek and Roman and mythical, mythological like
beings. But then in the modern sense it's like comic book heroes. And there's some essence of truth, some, some idea that they kind of stand for that resonates with people. And so in the real world, in the real world, but like Instagram, in some sense that represents people. The people that tend to catch on to something seem like they have. They express. There's an essence of some underlying truth that's like,
oh yeah, I really resonate with that. And so that doesn't mean, ironically, the person who does that is generally flawed in a certain subset of things that allows them to be so one sided. But I kind of look at, it's not David Goggins, because obviously he's a human, just like the rest of us. But there is a value of this. You have more, you are more resilient than you think. To me seems like the, the essence that people resonate with. And so when I say that it's not to. Because the
people have a hard time separating the idea from the individual. And so when you look at the essence behind that, what is it? What is the thing that they're really, they've grasped? Because even if somebody you don't agree with has a significant amount of following, there's something there to learn from them. And so that's kind of what I look at it. And so I guess you look at that paradigm. For me personally, it's. And again, I've been careful with that because I look at
him and I'm like, that's not, it's. There's something there to learn from. Oh yeah, but this, I like the idea of the athlete. So personally I've, I roll my eyes when I see this idea of a hybrid athlete. First off, it's like, there's like, okay, you pick heavy things, you run for long distances. I'm not saying it's not easy or it's easy or not difficult, but it's like I value the technical, the skill, the art. The beauty of something like this is impressive to me because it requires ingenuity,
creativity, patience. It's not just something you could, you know, of course you could grind away at it. And it's like that to me is like the art of running, the art of movie, the art of lifting. You're trying things are unconventional and finding the thing in that. So you know, I understand that it's the hard thing, but it's like, how do you get the most out of your body? How do you get the
most out of your effort? And I think that's the thing that like when I look at the quintessential cross country runner, it's like they getting more from the effort is, involves like a more concentrated effort, a sprint, so to speak, that I think is valuable to move in as one direction. But I could see on the other side of that is if you get so much where you, it becomes all consuming, then that becomes this over leveraging aspect. It's just an interesting aspect.
But I do think the one thing I really wanted to dial in on is you said you don't feel like you have to prove anything. Has that been the case or did you go through a period where you try to prove yourself and you realize like, I don't feel more or less from this. Yeah, I mean, just as a blanket statement, me saying that is probably not real to a level, but I think more than, let me rephrase that. I don't think, I don't think that that could be said with, you know, 100%, of course, you
know, certainty. Actually. Like, let's just take the style of powerlifting. A lot of guys, they're doing it because they're really trying to prove themselves. And I think if they win, if they hit this number, do this thing, they'll be this. Yes. So you in these silos, because obviously there's you as a lifter, you as an athlete, you as a father, you as a husband, you as a, you know, a business owner, you as an engineer, you as an individual. So you know, we're all working in different levels
of that. But it's like what I think is interesting specifically about the context of athletes is to me, athlete. Sports are supposed to be a container within which you have, you learn hard work, discipline, challenge, growth, overcoming failure,
loss, all these emotions. If there's emotional roller coaster that's held in a safe container of a sport and you take those lessons, you Apply them to family, business, the things that, you know, business as in like your ability to generate and create income and energy, but like the things that matter to you and that are the real game of life, so to speak, that a lot of people seem like they miss that they can't leave. And so there's a question of like,
well, what is it? Just that they're not able to like calibrate their effort and their intention and they're like really get a clear mind to be focused on one thing they're doing or that they're afraid of any success, failure, etc. Or that they simply just trying to prove themselves from some other thing. So it's interesting these, that container. Yeah. I think that a lot of people are stuck in this trying to please their perceptions of
what other people are thinking. And I use that specifically. What perceptions of what other people are thinking. Very guardian of you. Well, I mean it's. The reality of it is like we think that, you know, people are making judgments or doing, you know, looking at us quite a bit. And you know, often people are doing the same themselves and they're not looking out and doing as much of that as you think. But that still is the driver of
like, well, I'm going to be a lawyer. Like my parents want me to be a lawyer. I'm going to fit these norms. And so, and I fall in that like everyone else. But I've always been an outsider my entire life. So from my upbringing, you know, being, you know, the, the outcast, the poor kid and every aspect of my environment, I've always been different, you know, from being in the gym training and you
know, the I'm asking where are you bouncing at? And it's like, no, I'm actually got an MBA and I'm running this, you know, over here. People never can put you in this box. So I've always been like that person. So I've had a level of comfort with that. But at the same time, I mean, how can I not say that? Like I've overachieved at everything, right? I'm gonna beat you at, you know, being an intellect. I'm gonna beat
you physically. I'm gonna beat you at business. I'm gonna beat you like, you know, like. So obviously there's, you know, some self esteem or self worth issues in there. And that has certainly been something I think that I've gotten closer with and dealt with more. And you asked me a question just before we started this podcast and it was really, I told you, like my wife has taught me so much about life, and that is simply from the fact of loving
me unconditionally. Yeah. All right, guys. We talk a lot about mental resilience on this podcast, but let's talk about another type of resilience. That's movement resilience. We want to move well, recover better, and do it for life. And it starts with your feet. And you can start today with Naboso. Naboso is a sensory technology company founded by a functional podiatrist, and all their products feature a textured to stimulate, strengthen, and
awaken your feet. I use their splay toe spacers and neuro ball to release my feet at the end of every day. They also have these textured recovery socks that feel like a mini massage when you walk around. If you're looking for an effective way to bulletproof your feet, head to dumboso.com that's n a b o s o.com and use code resilience for 20% off the. Okay, so you're. You're saying that your relationship with Jacqueline, she's really just saw you for you? Yeah. So.
And it really is the. You know, my whole life, like, very early on, I was, like, responsible for so much. Yeah. And even, like, for my mother. It was proof to her that she was a good mother that I could accomplish and do so. Like. So Boy Named Sue. That's like a Johnny Cash song. I named you sue so you'd have to deal with a hard life. And then it's like, look how good a job I did. It's like, yeah, yeah. So it's been an interesting journey on that part. But I. What was it like to
trust that so. Because I imagine you grew up and you have everybody's already. No one gets no any before anyone even sees you. Were you a big kid growing up, like, strong with wise. Yeah, yeah. By. By high school? Certainly. Yes. People already. You were big enough before high school. Probably not. But did you have an accent or anything going? Like, anything like, anything that would have, like, given off, like, reasons for people to have already formed a perception of you before they met you?
Yes. Well, I mean, I was the kid from a trailer down by the river. Like, you know it. So there was always some level of perception around who I was or at least what I thought. But there. There was also just a. I guess a deep seated at that point, a deep seated sadness as well as confidence. Like, I've always been, like, growing up
the way I did. Like, I had to, you know, string up the tarp to make sure, like, I mean, it was just like, I had so much physical exposure to changing my environment and forming my environment that I. While I wasn't as confident in, like, social interactions in those earlier periods, I was very confident that I could accomplish anything. That's all good. We got. We got one camera, so we're good to go. But you're. I'm not sure that that one's actually set up decently since
the audio is good. So you can ask Jackson, come down and take a look at it. But, yeah, I think it's because. I don't know why I've never had that. It might just be a sign that this is a good conversation having. You don't need to be worried about what people look at it. True, true. Because remember, you got the audience, and so, yeah, sometimes you just got to roll with it. But I also understand that these are, like, real topics, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so, like, you're. You're.
You're constantly exposed to the reality of, like, I have to be physically protective of my sisters. And this. This. That kind of, like, sets you in a mindset that as a kid, you're. Where do you think the sadness came from? What? Like, just when. When's the first time you kind of felt that and, like, had that impression? Oh, that would be the day. I. It was first. Between first grade, I had stayed the night at my friend's house every night for, like, seven days in a row. And my parents said,
hey, you can't stay there again. You can't just live with this family. But I liked it. It was actually a nice home. And it was this. It was very different than where I lived. And so I threw a fit, but I went home. And the next morning I go to school. And this is a best to what I've reconstructed because I. So a lot of this is blacked out. But that night, fire started. And my friend, his mother, father, and siblings all passed away in the fire that night. And
so I didn't speak much of the next year. And so. And then that summer is when we were taken into custody. So we were up in the mountains and police showed up. And that's when I. I think I had my first leg break. Was sitting there in the vehicle, police car, and my sisters are in the back just bawling their. My brother. And I was just, like, watching, observing myself at that point in time. So. So, yeah, yeah. Connection at like, that moment. That's, like,
heavier than. Oh, no. I. I was like, looking at myself like, what's wrong with you? I was looking at myself because you're not having any emotion around this. And I was wondering what was wrong with me because I knew that wasn't right. So, yeah, so then we're separated from the family. And so, yeah, those are some early experiences that, yeah, definitely brought that brought that about. Yeah. And then you, you know, you go through that. Like, do you find like, okay, what was it like to
get. Come out of that break in a sense, like. Because one thing is the memory is so interesting because I was listening to somebody talk about memories and early memories and oftentimes we have this kind of expectation that our memories are supposed to be. There's like pictures that we play out in our head and specific, like, like we're looking at pictures and it's like the memories I have are like of me looking at pictures,
not necessarily of the thing. But the memory can come from these like deep impressions. And so it's interesting that you label it with like, okay, I felt sad. I had this thing of carrying it. Almost like you carried this with you in a sense. And so these impressions that inform a lot of what you experienced as a kid. What was it like to come out of that break and just be like, did you feel like you slowly kind of unnumbed and came back in yourself
or was it always a slight distance after that? Yeah, I think it was a slight distance. I started coming into myself a bit in, in high school for sure. So that's actually, that's where sports and physics, like training. I started training, I think around 8th grade, 7th, 7th grade. Lifting weights. Yeah. And so that just was a big transformative thing with me and obviously why it stayed with me for life. But yeah, that makes a lot of. Sense too because
there's. There's the Body Keeps the Score is one book I read about, but it's like the Somatic. So even my wife, it's like she's. She had some versions of challenge in her childhood and it's like there's like learning to feel. She does gymnastics and so she. So it's very good for her. But like, it seems so in a non conscious way, but like therapeutic to feel and to connect with your
body in a sense. Like, okay, this is my. It like that seems really, really healing in a way that I don't think, I don't think if you look at the modern schooling, it's like they take it away. It's like. But there are so many kids who do not have the vocabulary to be able to express what is happening, but they can like to push to pull. When did you start running for cross country? I don't think I did. I did. It was my second sophomore year because I
did wrestling. I started the season a little late. I was like, I'll probably be good at that because I'm strong. I've always been a very strong person. And then the second year is like, I need to get in shape for this. So that's where. Take it seriously. Yeah. So first you start lifting weights. What was your first exposure to that? Like, that's. I always love to hear the story, like, did you go to a gym? You stumble, you have some concrete weights. That's one of my questions.
So. I got time. But this is, I'll start. This is the rule of the fun stuff. So yeah, I. Where did I start? So I remember I got some ankle weights from Goodwill, so I started running those. And then I was doing jump squats with those and I was doing pushups. You're making this stuff up on your own or did you see a video or magazine? No, well, there was not really videos. My stepfather lifted weights when he was younger and so he's like, oh, you can do this.
So he taught me how to do push ups and behind the neck dips or behind the back dips on a chair. And that was my routine. And then, yeah, I saved up some money doing mowing lawns and stuff. And I bought Arnold's encyclopedia of Bodybuilding and Bill Pearl's book. Then I bought some plastic coated, the cement plastic coated weights, unlike the hollow bars. Have you ever seen that? That stuff? Okay, you got to be old enough to have experience because that stuff doesn't. Isn't around
anymore. But I'd find them in old people's sheds all cracked up, you know. And so I built a little weight set at home with that. And then I started lifting at school in the gym as well. And so, and then, you know, typically I had a training partner after a while because I was the strong guy and people wanted to be learn what I was doing. Right. You know, very common thing. So, so you kind of. And then at that point you start to develop. Just you get enough reps in like, oh,
this kind of works. That doesn't work. And you started to do that. And so that's seventh, eighth grade. Then you go to high school. And so then it's like you kind of, I guess you pick a sport and you play that and it was it. So did you. What was your experience? Like, you know, obviously the lifting state did wrestling outside of the, oh, I'm strong, I'd be good at this. Was there like a specific thing? Like it felt good
to wrestle? Like, is there a. Because running for a lot of people just feels open and free to be able to get out and just get outside and just to move into like, like in many ways, I mean, there's like a, there's a reason David Goggins runs and since he's running away, you know, it says. But like, you know, is there a level of that that really connects with you or for those experiences? Yeah, I'm not sure what it was with wrestling other than it was. I'm a bit of,
I am a bit of a master chest, I guess. So I sucked at it, by the way. Interesting. So I lost 25 matches in a row and then I won two towards the end of the season. Just that freshman year. Yeah, so I was pretty, I was pre bad. What do you, what do you. Is that just because it was technical or not there or just like guys you were wrestling with? Was it because you were big and you weren't cutting weight? A lot of
people start wrestling very young. Okay. So I came in to a fairly competitive class my first year and I decided that I would cut weight because that's what wrestlers do. Right. And so my parents told me, well, you got to cut out protein and eat, eat rice because they didn't know much. So I had a rice only diet. Whoa. And so I was just, I was just completely depleted. You know, like, I'd go to and I'd just be dead. But no, I just sucked. Yeah, I didn't know
what I was doing. And then I came back the second year, I was a little better. I won, I won 25 matches. And then you lost two. Yes. Yeah. So, okay, what was that like for your confidence in a sense? Like, did you, you know, you go through that and you're like, did it change? Because there's something about. I've done jiu jitsu for like two years now and I see a lot of kids and I've gone through periods with this and you just learn to roll with the punches. But
guys leave class and they just, they look deflated. But there's something about wrestling in that, like physical sport where like you didn't just. It's not like you lost the basketball game, somebody commanded you, held you on down, pinned you down and like, you know, like that. But at that age where you see feeling that as like a man, this really sucks. And I feel down by myself. But Then when you, you know, I guess I didn't. Because you
came back and you tried harder. What was your experience like that losing, you know, is it like it just made you want to like I can do this better. I don't remember like that it. Yeah, I just knew I could do better. I just knew, I just knew that I could succeed. And I. That's. We gotta get back to your story. But that is an interesting as it relates to this. So my wrestling coach my senior year, he comes up to me. So I was in one of the most
difficult, you know, classes. There was a bunch of repeat winners in there and I had lost three matches in my district. And so my wrestling coach comes up a week before districts and he asked me, this is actually in the newspaper article, asks me how I thought it was going to go. And I just matter of factly just told him, well I'm going to win and then I'm going to go to state and go to the finals. And there was no evidence. And this is what he
replied about when he was interviewed. He's like that, he's like, there is no evidence to suggest at all that that was going to happen. But Chris said it in such a matter of fact matter like it was just a fact that I just said oh okay. And I believed him and walked away. And then, and then I did. I went and I beat
all three people that had beat me. Yeah, I didn't have a single offensive point scored against me all the way through districts and I didn't have a single offensive point scored against me all the way to the final match at state where I was taking on the three time state champion and then I was crushing him into the second round when I got cocky and made a decision because of what I thought the crowd would. Because of what some people had said before the match and
did something that I never have done before and I lost. So. Yeah, but I get that's a really good intro. But the interesting thing is hearing the report back from like my coach like around his response because I don't even remember any of that. Like. But it was just like. Yeah, like he just knew that was going to happen and stated it like. And I believed him because that's just. He seemed to know. Yeah. Did you still in college? I was supposed to, supposed to, yeah. Hit one of the better schools.
I had beat everybody in the state that was starting as a wrestler already and I didn't get a scholarship to go to school at the school that had the wrestling program. And so I Then ended up getting a full ride scholarship to an engineering school that didn't have a wrestling program. And I went, oh, well, guess I'm not wrestling anymore. Was the full ride. Was that academically, Were you gifted in high school and. Yeah, I was academic, but. Okay, so
would you. What? How would you chalk up your ability to manage, like, to do well in school? I mean, it's not like most people would think you didn't have a stable upbringing. You know, you had all the things stacked against you, whether it was economics, the cereal upbringing, you know, like a certain. I'm assuming it wasn't in the best school district, but, like
just engineering because you're incredibly intelligent. Just the stuff that I've learned from you today, just walking through the way you just explain certain things and grasp concepts. This guy's really smart. Is that always just been kind of the way you've been? Very wise, very perceptive of the world around you and seen things. I'm very good at connecting the dots with things, and I just also happen to be very good with Tess, so I'm not smarter than
anybody else, but I see things in a different way. I connect the dots between seemingly interrelated things and then I'm able to explain that. And then I just. Which for school, I happen to be really good at tests. So we see how people think, and you're probably pretty well, like, I could see why they've asked this. Yeah. Yeah. So I. So for me, it came down to school. Allowed me to do things that I didn't have time for
because I was good at test. Got it. So when I went to engineering school, for example, I worked full time. I ended up raising my sisters. I didn't go to school. I didn't buy books. I showed up and I took the tests. I wonder what that intelligence is. That's amazing. It's. I'm good at tests. That's. What do you think that is? It's just pattern recognition or just like pattern recognition? Yeah. So, yeah, I had the highest graduating engineering gpa and I
was valedictorian in my high school. That's phenomenal. But I'm not like, just. It just. It just school and grades aligned with how my brain thinks. And we all think differently. It's just. It's just a difference. So the learning, it's not like great is. Is different, you know? Yeah. Well, so learning, like, learning how to put these things, I mean, just. Just the 15 projects you've told me about so far, like welding, obviously. Mechanics, engineering, like, where do how do, do you learn? Just
watch or like visually just watching other people do something or does it. You just kind of like, yeah, that looks like that makes sense. Do you just kind of like make sense it and it just goes from there. I definitely have to practice research these days because I am confident and I'm feet first. So a lot of times I'll do things and then fuck it up wildly and I'll figure it out and I'll get it done. But I'm like, research it after the point and be like, oh, yeah, okay,
here's what an expert would do. All right. That would have been easier. So I'm getting better and better at that. But there's always been a certain point of too like just the willingness and confidence to. I think people are so much more capable than they think they are. I truly believe that people can do accomplish so much if they didn't have the inhibitions around fear. What do you think that is? Where do you think that comes from? Yeah, yeah.
I really do think it's the inhibitions around fear. And fear is a valuable tool so you can't disregard it. Right. So today we're out, you know, running and sprinting and you're constantly like, oh, hey, make sure there's no pothole. What about the stickies here? What about this? And I'm just like, dude, let's just sprint. Like, I don't care, like I'll be fine. And so that's not necessarily always good. Right. And it's. So we have to have a balance. Like if you're.
You should read my book, the Opening about the rattlesnake. I'm not going to tell it here. My audience has heard the rattlesnake story a bunch, but you got homework. Yeah. So you have to respect it, but you have to have the confidence that you control it. So you have to be able to recognize it and look it dead in the face and be
able to walk through that you can't lock up. Right. And so, but I truly believe people can do so so much in so many areas if they just had the confidence to dive in and believe in themselves and do the research and figure it out instead of being worried that I'm going to do it wrong, I'm going to look bad. I'm. I'm not going to comprehend it. I'm not smart enough to figure this out. Like I, any of the other second guess in the talking holds people back
from, from so much. I mean, I believe that I can do most anything and if I Try to do it. I will do it. It doesn't matter what it is. You were saying earlier just that the ability, money being fake and basically being able to maintain your vision and your course of action consistently throughout the peaks and valleys, is that kind of what. Not let your vision and your effort be shaded by fear in some capacity. Yeah,
yeah. You gotta recognize it and work around it. Not just like ignore shit, but yeah, you've got to have the confidence to just like drive that, like, you know, talk. Listen to any story from a. From a, you know, athlete that's had the challenge of working through to accomplish
something. Listen to the stories of tremendous business leaders or political leaders or so on, and how many times they'll tell you, like how they just had to keep going with that vision and things weren't stacking up and doesn't mean that every plan is going to work out, trust me. But maybe there's another way that you're going to realize that vision. There's another way of expressing the things that you're trying to express. And maybe it's not exactly that one thing, but you're
going to find it as you chase that. Hmm. Okay. So were there things you were afraid of as a kid, like just things that. Or did you just have so many things beaten out of you and by certain circumstances you're like, what's the worst that can happen? Or did you even think, calculate that at all? Water. Really? Yeah. Drowning. Interesting. It freaks me out. I got a phobia about drowning. Interesting. Since as early as you can remember. Yeah, I mean, I
think me and all my siblings do for the most part. I mean, there's this, you know, if you throw a kid in water, they're gonna learn to swim thing. Right. I don't know. Is that real? I think there's some relationship which they learn to like, turn their bodies up and hold their breath or something like that. There's a thing there, but I think babies get there in the water, but I don't know. Yeah, well, if you're in the mountains and the water is a fast, cold running
river, doesn't have the same effect. It doesn't have the same effect. I can tell you that you probably have a phobia of drowning and can't swim. So can you swim now? Have you ever? I can. I forced myself to learn to swim when I was in high school, but I could never get myself out of. When I jump in the water to. Right before I go in the water to go like this, to open my mouth wide Suck in what? Like. And so. But I'm not a very good swimmer, and I would not choose it by any
manner, but I have. I have forced myself to do that. But I will freak out. Yeah. If it's over, my. If I can. Very quickly. So those people that go out to the. Who's the guy? The Laird Hamilton, they go out into the XPT and they hold weights in the water and. Yeah. Interesting. I've worked on Laird's feet before. Really? Wow. What was that? What was his occasion? I feel like he probably have, I would think, great feet, being a surfer and. Oh, my God, his feet are fucking
destroyed, man. Really? Well, like, the physical nature and the abuse of getting, like, physically, like, destroyed, like, from, like, being hashed on thing, you know, like fucking broken and mangled and. Right. Like literal mangled feet. But you. Yeah, he had a knee problem. I was at his house, and he's like, oh, my knee, my knee. What can you do? And I'm like, oh. It's like, oh, here, let's work on your foot. And you're breathing a little
bit. He's like, oh, my knee's better. I'm like, did you train consistently when you got your job? Cause I now am interested to get there. You go to school. Why did you take school seriously? Of all the things I feel like. A lot of people would have been seriously. I just. I did the minimal effort possible to get done what I needed it done while I could also take care of myself and take care of my family. So you had other. So I guess that's the point. You realized you
couldn't not care. I just feel like a lot of people in your circumstance would have just been like, yeah, it didn't matter. What's the point? It just isn't. I listen. They just kind of. No, there was a. There was a point, like when I first, like, didn't get the scholarship to the. To the other school, and I was just like, fuck, I guess I'm just going to keep working as a waiter here in this resort town.
And then, yeah, I wrote an essay about my life for the small scholarship that went to the newspaper, the Ben Bulletin, and it got picked up and ran on the front page of the Ben Bulletin. And then that got picked up on the wire service and went all over the West Coast. Really? Yeah. And so I was in high school getting interviewed on the. They'd call me into the office and I'd get interviewed on the radio. And your life before that? Other kids know? No. What was it like all Of a sudden. Yeah.
Everybody was like, what? And then did you become like kind of a spectacle? Obviously a spectacular. I was like, right at the end of high school, it was like literally like the last few weeks and so on. And I don't know that it was a spectacle, but yeah, it surprised a lot of people. They had no idea. Interesting. And then. So that. And then this college down in Southern Oregon calls me up and they're like, hey, why don't you come down here and check this out? And like, hey, here's a
full ride scholarship academic. Was it a convenient. Was it a convenient, like a thing that was an engineering school? Or would you, would you have picked an engineering school if you had free ride to wherever? Would you have picked an engineering school at that point? Yeah, I was going, I had picked an engineering school. Okay, that works out. Yeah. So do you feel like that that was enough to get you out of this nihilistic moment in a sense where you're like,
I just, you know, whatever. Yeah. I mean that was just a brief kind of passing moment where I was just like, I don't know. But I was so afraid, you know, and this is fear, like afraid. Like I had so little financial literacy with my growing up, like. Or my parents weren't able to guide me on, like, what's the process like. Like to get loans and go like. So like that area was something that I didn't dive into and maybe I didn't have confidence in that area. A lot of
other areas I did that one I didn't. And so what prompted you to write. The essay is that I guess that's why. So like, maybe, maybe I don't know about being taken alone, but like I could get a scholarship and maybe that was. So you're like, I'll get this shot. Oh, well. Yeah. So once I didn't get the bigger, I just applied for a bunch of local, smaller scholarships. I was on that. I was going to figure out a path. You're going to get. I was going to figure out a path. Yeah. Wow.
So I just started applying for all these little. Do you think the wrestling, that change of the wrestling process of like, I sucked at this. I trained hard, I got better, and now I'm really good. Like, develop the pattern of like, I can do stuff, I can do hard things. Well, let's reflect back on that. The wrestling, the reason I had confidence, remember, was the fact that I had such the physical nature of. In my life of having
to figure out and, and manage my environment. So I knew that I could, if I failed, I could figure out, like enough. You. You just had to figure it out. That was my life. You had to figure it out. And so wrestling was like, I wasn't like. So this was all just the things that I'd learned early on. Like, the confidence I had wasn't that I wasn't going to. Was not that I was going to be the master of everything. The first, like, the first time. That's so good. That is so deep. Yeah. So. And then
you. It was. I might fail 20 times, but I have the confidence that I can keep figure. I'll figure this out. Okay. And so you get in, you're managing these things and it's okay. So then you go through and you get your first degree, second degree. Then you. What made you want to go get your mba? Is that just a different phase of. Life or you're like, yeah, I was finishing well, I was. Yeah, I was about a year out of school. I saw my
senior project left. I basically finished school early and I had like, just. That was working. But I had my senior project, which still ran into the next year. And so I applied for an internship and it was a production manager at a mill. And I was doing it. And I was not greatest. You know, I didn't have a lot of social experience, but college really opened me up. I wasn't just all work. I was quite a partier and well known around the entire town for being a vibrant personality.
And my house was known as that. Right. So it was the center of where everybody came. And so. But anyway, I found that to be really challenging. And so. And I also, like realized I didn't want to sit at a computer all day long. I'm like, that's not the life. And so this just was a thing. So I decided to chase that. It was lower paying, but I also realized that if I developed those skills and had the engineering background, I would be move ahead very
fast. Because the step to engineering management is something that is just like a really. Not many people get to. And if you do, it's like 15 or 20 years down the road. So everybody out of school is like, what are you doing? We're all going to work for Boeing. We're going to make a lot more money. I'm like, I can't believe you're making that much money. This is way back, you know, in the 90s. It's like, we're making 38 and you're only making
28, you know, and. And yeah, a couple of years later, a Lot of them were asking for jobs because I then use that worked at it for like a year. Packed the year of internship. So now, now I start my mba because I can say I've got three years of like work experience when a year and a half that was actually intern but it was a continuing then.
So I went straight from my engineering into my MBA, got that done two years later and I've got five years of management experience and you know, before I'm 30 years old, I'm you know, a corporate executive doing pretty well. Yeah. In the world. So you're still training, lifting all through this time? Yeah. Are you getting stronger and you
like you're just really getting that? Yeah. And so I was that time I was competing and that time, by that time I was ranked number one in the world for either squat or the deadlift or the total. I saw then I opened and then I opened a gym on the side and. Yeah, yeah. And then do you find this kind of passion for like really like are you coaching people at the same time? Just people come to the gym and just like, yeah, that's. And that's what I loved about my
work too, like was coaching and leading people and getting people to achieve. Like that is like the rewarding thing and that's had a lot of impact on
people and doing so. But then, yeah, the gym was coaching and that's where my YouTube started back in 2007 is I just was like started with my training logs and then I was like, oh, I'll just film myself talking to people, leave work and I go to Zoom and I'm like, hey guys, let's talk about like pull everybody in and we grab my little potato phone and film just me talking to people posted
up online. And yeah, there's like this old video of me talking, breathing, embracing strategies like before anybody was doing it. Back in the sneak world, any things. That you've come up with have now become like career makers from like a different some influencers got some thing about it. Oh, freaking I. Businesses that have run off all the little gimmicks and things like that have now like spun off of this idea that you've like you came up with 20 years ago or 15 years ago. That's amazing.
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informed sport tested for quality and safety. Listeners can get 10% off by using code resilience@buildfast formula.com that's code resilience for 10% off everything@buildfastformula.com Find your formula and feel your physicality. Today we never got to talk. Today I was going to talk about the. You were talking about the connective of tissue and like I was going to show you how like you can influence largely your foot with your tongue. What? Yeah. Is that like a thing after you'll. Send me
or we could finish it. We could do it upstairs. Okay. After the podcast. Yeah, that was one of. Because when we're talking ideas, I'm like, oh, this one fits in and I didn't throw that one out there. Yeah, there's a whole level of. Yeah. Tip of your toe to your tongue, like. Okay, tip your toe. Tongue. Right. I mean the factual. Think about the. Think about it like. Right. Makes sense. Think about that fascial sling and how the diaphragm is really like. Yeah.
Do you. Okay. So from lifting for so long, do you feel like that affected your mobility? Obviously in some obvious ways, but you're still sprinting in so quick. Like it just seems like you're moving in a dynamic way that after having lifted like you were lifting so much weight, but you're still able to be explosive. Like most
people think there's a trade off there to a certain degree. Do you think that that's like across the board or do you think you're not as explosive or like, I don't know, do you think you be a faster, more limber, dynamic. You can also split either you're such an interesting body person, you know, it's like.
Yeah, I think I could be faster. But again, a lot of understand the path that I went on was because I trained in the traditional modalities and I ended up getting a lot of issues and that's what sent me on the journey is the subset of surgeries and issues that I experienced. So my arms are the one thing I have not been able to fix. But that was part of the journey and a lot of this was heightened because I don't experience most pains, particularly joints pains due to an autonomic nervous
system disorder that I didn't know I had when I was younger. Really? What is that? Wait, okay, so you don't experience pain. Yeah. So most types of pain. Yeah, deep pain, joints, bones breaking, stuff like that. Right. So. But when your toe got been backwards. That Hurt that soft tissue? Yeah, soft tissue's a bitch. So, like, you know, I've had three dental implants. You know, they can put them in, I'll walk out, have a surgery or have a steak. Like, don't. Doesn't bother me.
And you say that's from an autonomic nervous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so a big, big common issue with that is people have destroyed joints. Now throw my lifting and other stuff on top of that. Right. So I destroyed my elbows in the course of that. And I didn't know it until my arm quit working. And then that's when I started diving deeper on like, what is wrong? And so I started taking a lot of clinical continuing education.
The things that I discovered there were not in the strength training realm or they were not able to be able to be communicated effectively because it was also just like, don't lift heavy. These people don't know what the fuck they're doing. And I'm like, no, actually there's nothing wrong with that. I understand. This is the connecting the dots going, okay, and here's the things and seeing the pieces in all those worlds that actually I could teach
those people things. And I started to. And so I started lecturing and teaching alongside of some of these people in the developmental kinesiology world and at some of the schools. And so that is what I was doing around 2010 through 2014. And that was a result of this. And then I started repairing and fixing, and then my performance started going to an even higher level. Wow. Okay. So that's when I. I had like a 750 pound squat and it went to 850 and I didn't get stronger.
You just. I was able to move more. Yes. Right. So. And then it, it just started. And that's when I went from like this top tier level to like, you know, a known strength athlete to like, what the is this guy doing? And then that's when the things at first that I was saying, people are like, oh, yeah, whatever. And then, then other athletes started doing and trying, and then all of a sudden it's like, okay, there's something
here. Like, is that boiled down to just like intentional massage, stretching, mobility stuff, or like, because what was it that you were like, really translating there? Like, this is moving the needle. It was really basic stuff that you would just at this point in time go, well, that's just what everyone does. That's the thing. Because it was when you squatted, the entire verbiage was. Everything was around like, arch, hard, chest up, head up, butt, back, push, push, push, knees out,
you know, rolling. And it's like it was all about like crunching down hard, bracing up hard, like all these things that ended up having a very stack of detrimental problems on the body. And I started like, hey, no, let's not. Let's approach this differently, you know, all right, let's expand, you know, through the core. Let's be able to do that so that it keeps these things aligned. We're going to sit between the, like just really things
that it's time people are like, that's just wrong. That's wrong. And now we see the way that people coach and talk throughout the entirety. And then that translates obviously well beyond the squat, right? This is all loaded movement. But that starts having a huge impact on the body. I mean, like, it's at the time, like it was really easy for me just a few years later to start pointing to all the replaced backs and hips and so on of the. And you know, not just the performance, right? And so,
you know, it was on the foot mechanics. All right, we're not going to, you know, take it and like crank and package up our foot. We're going to start using it and strengthening it and being able to root, not just focus on the knee falling out. Like, right, Because I could do that
by, you know, like rolling out on my foot. Like, like we can make things look away or we can manage the body to, to accomplish those things and, and you know, just that, like things around like managing regulation of training, you know, So I was the first one that took like speed training, the tools that we use to manage velocity to not work faster, but to tap in and see what you're doing in the nervous system and be able to use it as a tool to regulate and manage your training,
right? And that's kind of all grown into, you know, a vast array of just the way we look at training, modulate training, the way that we move our body, the way like movement prep drills. So preparing the body, the tissue, turning on the nervous system. So not because it was all the back then, the other count, this was just like you have to do the repair work. If you do X amount of strength training, you've got to do this amount of stretching to fix it. That's
your balance. And I'm like, no, that's triage work. If you need to do this, it's a signal that something is wrong to begin with. Go find you either have a problem with your training program where you're overloading beyond the capacity of the Tissue to repair or you're moving in a way that is creating that same thing to happen. If you improve the quality of movement, you can now load frequently or with more load or more volume. So you've got two different ways of managing
that. If we approach it in that manner. Right. Why do you. So this is why I get stuck with. But it's just like really basic stuff. That's why, why, why do you think we were so dumb? Because you would think after 2000, my impression is that like we've been moving and doing this stuff. There would be some inherited wisdom over years. But it's like what confluence of things led us to be so like in the 9, 80s and 90s,
we're so dumb about movement. I think you just had to have the right person say it because the people that were trying to say it were. I'm sorry, it sounds stupid, but a bunch of skinny clinicians that didn't lift weights and were anti lifting. Right? And now we still have the people like, I'm talking movement prep stuff and people like, oh, it's just all about load. Like it just depends on the
perspective and you. So you needed like having the guy that's going, no, I'm not saying to not push load. I'm not saying to, you know, I needed the right person. But it was just connecting those dots as well. I was able to play the middle ground. I was able to. The clinicians go, hey, this guy knows what he's talking about because he's speaking our language. And on the strength trauma like, hey. This guy looks like he knows. He knows what you're like so. And deliver
results at the end of the day. So. So speaking of the connecting the dots, I know you talk a little bit about the six Ps, the psychology and the physiology, which I think is something that's phenomenal. Have you noticed any connection between emotional experiences with your training with muscle, with certain, let's just say tissue that's off limits. Off limits meaning just stiff or it's not developing with certain movement patterns
with certain emotional psychological frameworks. Have you ever noticed like connecting. Oh yeah, certain, certainly. What's your, what's your impression? What, what would be the thing that in 20 years gonna be like, duh, that they're like that you're really seeing as like obvious now, are there anything that strikes your. Comes to mind off the top of. That, I haven't done the time to spend a deep
dive like any experiences. You'Ve had in a sense where like you were struggling with Something that correlated with a certain experience in your life that then it seemed like it all just kind of unfolded at once, or like you had something happened and then there's something changed in your body, like job changes, your lifestyle changes anything. So what I think is interesting there is the fascial and nerve connections related to specific organs and mechanisms within the body. Right.
So the phrenic nerve that innervates the diaphragm pierces that to go to the. We've got the lungs, and it passes through the periocardium, which has all this connections and management around the heart. So you've got these. And the periocardium is attached to. Which is really interesting because the periocardium is attached to the base of the cervical spine as well as the, you know, all areas through the chest. And you see this with a lot of lifters, with these, like,
cervical disc issues. And you're like, where is that coming from? Because we're not loading that area as well. Right. So you end up with these breathing dysfunction issues as it relates to, like, tightness and movement in these, you know, in the. In the thoracic outlet affecting the stabilization and use of the diaphragm. Right. So all of that's connected, but it also ties right in with what's
happening with the heart. And then the. And the tissues around that are physically like, drawing and pulling on the tissues between the ribcage and the cervical spine. And all this is all tied in through this thoracic outlet, which we see a lot of stress, tension through the cm, the traps, like all of this. Right. So it's just. You ever seen something simple like body tempering, where you put a heavy weight on somebody's chest, set it on their chest right here.
Particularly with this person that's in this position has some of those issues. Breathing pattern dysfunction, because the breathing pattern dysfunction. So here, breathing pattern dysfunction, what happens, starts happening. Like we start seeing this. We're extending here. The rib cage locks down and the intercostals get super tight. Right. So you touch somebody in the intercostal. Come here. Okay. Yeah. So you might find somebody react like
you just stabbed them with a dagger. But you're. I'll give you confident context on that, but carry on. Okay, so that starts. That starts happening. We get this deformation of the rib cage, right. This extension, which then that's tied back here to this, which then we get the neck and cervical issues. Right? Okay. But that's the dia. The diaphragm is not able to function as. Correct. As the ribcage isn't able to move right. So we start seeing all these issues now. Put a heavy weight
right here. Yeah. Right in your diaphragm and let it sit for five minutes and watch that person when they get up. And you will see a complete change in their nervous system, tone in their response in the world, as well as a physical change in the shape of their, of their. Their. Like all of this stuff, it's really fascinating. You can. I've. This sounds like over speaking, but I've had one of these individuals on my podcast. He's the owner of a, of a shoe brand and company. But he was in pain
for 13 years after falling off a ladder. A lot of change. He came up with a partner to visit me and we did some stuff like this and he got up and his partner looked at him. He's like, you're a different person. He's like, I feel like a new person. And it changed. It was a life changing experience for him with being able to set some load in different places and focus on some breathing drills as it relates to that while that's happening. That sounds really out there. But start thinking about these
connections. Perfect sense. So Perfect sense. Yeah. So I had a personal experience with that the first time I picked up a sandbag because I had started to dabble in that and it was about £100. I held it to my chest and right in that area. And all of a sudden I felt this wave of anxieties. All my breathing is going, I don't know what's happening. I press it in there. But I'm like, I know I'm okay. I know I'm okay. So I was able
to sit there and then I just, I explored that for a while. And then I would just go lay on a bench and just try put my chest on a bench and my arms and legs hang over because it's like a seal row thing that lets you kind of suspend yourself. And I was just practice breathing in and out of that. And then jujitsu has been big because I realized that there would be guys that I would just have guys like, I would just be in
their side control. But I'm like, I'm okay. And just practice, get used to that pressure. And it is maybe profound difference. Like there's between that like developing the breath because there's guys that I'll go in and I'll just lay on them and they're like, I'm like, guy, just relax. Just let me just learn to relax. And so we can facilitate that to happen faster. Right. So the diaphragmatic breath, Right. Is this wave.
And we think about it in the stomach, but it's actually not right because the diaphragm's here. But it's actually the organs are. The organs are being pushed out, like all the way around and this wave comes up. And so we talked about this today, this outward expansion breath is this way, not this way, but once you hit the ribs, you're going to have some outward expansion in there.
And some people, and it's just a little bit. But once we start locking that down, then those intercostals, like, it's. It's. It's really interesting. And when people start getting locked down and that movement starts restricting, and now all of a sudden the scapula is not gliding across the. You know, which is. This is some of the route to like, what I discovered and what I went through a long time ago. Now I know how to accelerate these things
much faster. But yeah, there's. I think that there's a set of like, emotional, I wouldn't say trauma experiences, whatever that can cause, reside in different areas. And that sounds like very. I don't think it is. Give it credence. But if we think about the nerve, like the ties of these are all just outputs of our nervous system. And then these nerves are related to like, what I. The nerves I was just talking about. They're related to what? Like the autonomic
nervous system that controls freaking. Your heart and lung function. Like. Right. And it passes through. Like this stuff is interrelated. Yeah. Well, to me, it's like there will be a way to whatever measure this or like have studies or something. In 20 years it'd be, duh. They'll be, you know, but it's. It seems revolutionary. But it's. If you get scared, what happens? Your heart rate, it goes up. You know, if you got underwater and you couldn't breathe, people panic. It's like there's
a reason you open your mouth and you start hyperventilating. Right. So you can practice, but you can practice to not do those things. Yeah, right. Which. So would you call it like parasympathetic regulation in a sense where you're like. In the same way with me holding the thing is like, I'm set. This is a safe place. Like, this is just a bag pressing in here so I can breathe. Bring that down. So what I think that we're
doing there. And this relates to the discussion we had around like the Cadillac bar and the Transformer bar is, you know, you take a huberman approach, like, which is a very. Like, you know, we start with the brain and the outward function on the body, but realizing we can actually tap into the brain on the distal end to influence. And that's. A lot of people really miss the impact of that. And it is well known in research, like, the impact
that you can have by doing that. Because people are like, oh, you can't treat the fascia, it's so stiff. Like, yeah, I know. But I can influence the brain by touching on the distal lens. And I think that that's what we're doing there. Right. We've got neurological, you know, triggers within that. Well, so what it sounds to me is you're. This again will be one of those things in five years or 10 years. And like, duh. But you're just. Instead of just thinking,
there's this, like, it's just cognitive. It's just thinking, whatever. We're just in our brain. Or it's just physiological. It's just tissue or it's just emotional. It's like we want to lump these things in different areas in spiritual. We can fall in that category at some place. But it's like the combination of those factors gives you a multiple ends to pull on to address the issue. But also it's just a much more effective way to proceed. In a sense. You could
foam roll and be tense and resist it the whole time. And it's like, oh, it didn't work. It's like, well, no, we have to have an intention to let go. Yes. Intentionality, purpose and intent with all of it. Purpose and intent. What was your first experience with the breathing? Because that doesn't. It's so obvious now. But the number one thing I will get when I will see someone, and I'm like, hey, you should work on your breathing. What do you mean? I always breathe.
Good. It's like, take a big breath in. Okay. Did you notice that you did that your ribs went up and your shoulders went up. Like, how did you draw. Start to draw those dots of like, huh? Self aware of that. Yeah. I went through a lot of courses with the practitioners from Prague with dynamic neuromuscular stabilization. So I've spent years going through that coursework. All that clinical work. Was there something that sparked your interest on that in the front end? You
just seems like, I should do it. Yeah. I ripped my pack off of my two heads of the pack off my shoulder, and I went to try to find a person that could do grass, and I found the guy that was like, the first grass impression in the state. And I showed up at his office. His name's Dr. Philip Snell. And he looks at me, he's like, yo, I can do that. But he's like, I think you might have a problem with your squatting. Squatting? Really? And I was like, oh, okay.
And then he showed me, you know, he executed a squat. And I was like, he was a skinny practitioner, clearly didn't lift weights. And I'm like. That'S not what you expected, but you're like, this incredibly strong, talented athlete, and you're like the skinny guy. Your squatting sucks. Yeah, no, but. Long day. This is over several, you know, sessions. But he's like, I don't have all the answers, but I think maybe we should look at some stuff here. And
his openness to not have, like, you're wrong. This is right. Like here. Like, it was a very. It was a very conversational and back and forth approach. And so he started showing me some stuff. I'm like, this is interesting. This has some really good merit. He started talking about the science behind it, and then I started diving
deeper. He saw that I had an interest in this stuff and that I could grasp the concepts really fast, and so he started introducing me to a number of people in the clinical realm. And so one of those was a guy that brought DNS to the United States. I took all his courses. First course, I showed him how it relates to Deadlifting. And he had me presenting, you know, as his audience and just kind of grew from there. That's how I grew in that realm. But that
was. That was the kickoff, and that was really how that got into the space. And people may not realize a lot of what they do teach now in strength training has a lot of influence based on DNS. Now, DNS was very anti lifting at that point in time. Still some influences there. But. But, yeah, but you want to hear a wild story? I would love to. Yes. Yes. Maybe we'll wrap it up on this one, but this is a good. You see my missing tooth. Okay, now I see it. Well, okay, Just.
Just in case anybody just listening, he pulls back his back molar. You see my missing tooth. Yes, because I've inspected your teeth that well, but. Okay, I'll agree with that now. Well, that's how I was showing it to you so you could see it. Okay, now I can see it. So I had my last elbow surgery done. And how graphic do I make this? This will be entertaining. My wife might not like this, but Anyway, all right, so fly down to Los Angeles the day after Christmas to get this elbow
surgery done. I go in, get it done. By the way, I have been trying to find somebody for years to do this, and I end up getting the top guy at Cedars and I, Curlyn Jobe, number one surgeon of the year, like three years in a row, does my surgery. So arguably the best elbow surgeon in the United States. Elbow surgeries are tough. And he comes out of it and he's like this. Well, this is actually a follow up later. But he's like that first. There were so many disclaimers when I, when
I started, because they're like, just like, this is a highly risky surgery. You're not normal. This is like no promise of results. Like, understand the risks. The most difficult surgery, elbow surgery he's ever done, they couldn't even do orthoscopic. They ended up having to open up. And I told them ahead of time they were going to have to, but they end up open the arm up fully and getting in there with pliers, trying to pull the joint, rip the joint open
enough to be able to. Use all your tools. To get it. So I was like way long in surgery. They didn't, like, it took a while to get out. And I had Covid the week before. I forgot to tell them because then they were going to cancel the surgery. So I went out and I was coughing blood, like a whole thing of it afterwards. But anyway, so anyway, I'm just like, whatever, fine, because you're supposed to stay there now for like two weeks or whatever for the follow up. And like, no, I'm flying
back tomorrow. So go down to the. Back to the hotel room, bang the wife, of course, because, you know, that's what you do right after surgery, sit down. And a friend of mine comes over, this doctor friend of mine, and we have a couple hour conversation actually around the phrenic nerve and periocardium and a lot of pretty deep stuff that I probably shouldn't have been able to handle with that level of stuff in my brain and woke up, flew back to Oregon the next day, then two
weeks later flew back down. And that's when I found out. But I was having headaches the couple days beforehand. And then I had a pretty bad headache like that day. And so I go. And then right after that, I went to my friend, the doctor I was telling you about, and I said, because he's a western medicine and an eastern, he's got an acupuncture degree as well. I'm like, fix me up. Shoot some needles in here, make the headache go away.
And I stick some needles in my ear, and he puts a device on there, puts it in my hand. And he's like, you got a bad tooth. And I'm like, what? He's like, well, see right here, there's no resistance at all between your hand, just an ohmmeter and this point on your ear, which. He's like, it means you got an infection right here. And he's like, I wish I could refer, because, you know, I've seen this a few times, but this is the pathway. And this point in your ear, you have an
infection probably in this tooth. So I go back home, and then my mouth starts throbbing and my elbow starts aching. And it's Saturday, so I call him up. I'm like, dude. He's like, yeah, if you've got an infected tooth and you didn't. That I should just go, this elbow. Well, it was on a Friday. Oh, okay. So I go to the dentist and I'm like,
hey, I've got an infected tooth. And I need to get that taken care of because I've got an elbow and it's going to go into my elbow, and I can already start to feel it in my elbow now. Oh, that's scary. Okay, so they do X rays, and the X ray tech's like, your tooth's fine. You just got an infection in the gums there or something. We'll give you some antibiotics. Dentist comes in, looks at the X rays, says, yeah, no, you're fine, but we'll give you some antibiotics. So I go a couple weeks
on antibiotics or a week and a half. I'm like, feel fine. Elbow's fine. Good. Antibiotics stop. Elbow starts hurting again. So I go to my dentist. X rays, X ray tech, same thing. You're fine. Dentist looks at it and he's like, God, you know, we did do a crown on there last. This is in January, in like September. He's like, there's just this ever so faint. Just little shading right here. There's no way that that could be. Like, if this tooth just. If it's dead, it, like, just died
like a week ago, like two weeks ago. He's like, there's no way. And I tell him the symptoms, and he's like, I. He's like, I gotta send you to an oral surgeon. We gotta do. We gotta do an mri. We gotta know more what's going on here. So they go do imaging. Then I go to the oral surgeon. She's like ah, it looks, you know, like there's no way you would know that this tooth is bad.
If it's bad. Like so then she goes in there and does some other tests on it with sensitivity and other stuff and she's like, your tooth's dead. It just died. It's infected. We need to pull it. So how many imaging and people in deep for this guy that with before any symptoms, my friend, you know, tests and it's zero. Like, I mean it's like you can put it, hook it up anywhere else and you're going to measure it through the body resistance. But
there was a dead channel, no resistance. Right. So understand like, you know, that circuit was completely open. And you know, I'm hoping people have level of electrical understanding to know like that's not like some pseudo thing like why is this point in my ear to a certain point in my hand have zero resistance and ever like. Right. And that just happens to be tied here where this tooth is that I don't have anymore. Because it's bad. It died like that week and he identified it. Isn't that
cool? That's unreal. So what do you make of that? Like being steeped in the western perspective and doing this. How do you square that? Well, it's really interesting. So he's a really good friend, mentor of mine. He's actually, I think he studies Japanese and German too because just to be able to read. So there's tons of science people like, where's the science? Where's the science? There's tons of research paper in Germany, like, but you got
like. And that's why they have these really complicated like devices, you know, medical devices that like register the specific points very specifically. But they, there's so much research. But it's in countries that are not the US Just as an assumption. And all I can show is it doesn't mean anything. It's just a pattern. It's a pattern. I don't know who knows what it means. But given a certain set of patterns you can draw,
we know that these patterns repeat in history. And so yeah, they discovered those patterns 5,000 years ago through however many hundreds of years discovering those patterns. But it's pattern, it's basic pattern recognition. Right. Different ways to do that so we could dive deeper. I'd need to refresh
my mind on that. But there's some really interesting things about like spinning a needle and that actually creates a, you know, the piezoelectric charge to a certain, like there, there's certain things like people want to call things, you know, pseudoscience of certain nature. But there's, it's very easy to actually track down and understand some of the science on this stuff. Yeah, it's electricity to nerves and certain patterns in the body that elicits different
results. And that's what we know. And we don't necessarily know how that may be works in sessions, but like if we have the history of it and we've done the research and we've got the analysis of that. Yeah, there's stuff that we can deduct like. Well, that's like the nerves are just a transduction of like, it's just like concentration gradients. It's just physics, it's just. And it's like. That's what I think people miss is like, they think it's
energy, all this stuff. And it's like, no, it's not like some spirituality, energy, things. It's just the principles of science. Yes. Yeah. It doesn't have to. That's what I like I tried to be able to explain that. Like the hard part is people hear that, oh he did this thing and because they don't want to. If you could just take five minutes and just walk through, hey, there's something called chemistry. I mean I'm five minutes but like a few hours. Chemistry and physics is like there's.
These things have repeatable principle based patterns that manifest in the body. It's just amazing. And I gotta say. Yeah. And so those pathways, so in this particular, along those pathways, because of the damage that's there, that circuit's open. It doesn't have the ability to create resistance because there's that, you know, infection,
you know, in there. So it's reading is a, is a problem then like good vibrant tissue that's got some level of resistance in it because of the chemical structure is creating that, that resistance versus it's fighting something off, it's depleted. That's an open pathway, just like water is. You connect the circuit and goes. No resistance. I gotta say the thing you said about learning other languages to read different studies. I remember Charles Poliquin said something about that
learn different languages. That I think is the single most disappointing fact that I continue to be astounded by about modern medicine is if all this technology, amazingly brilliant minds around the world and yet we're siloed off. Like think of all. If we could just combine like just to. I don't know whether it's just a difference. Like it should be as simple as a Google Translate or something you read. But like, what is this block that
keeps people dumb? We're stuck in the dumb ages, in a sense, with the dark smart ages, because it's like we could know so much more with the totality of human wisdom, but we don't because it's a different language. And, you know, it's not my PhD. It's not my view. Gosh, that is so disappointing. But that is an amazing story. I love that.
And I guess the takeaway from that is really, it just combines the fact of, like, if somebody was talking about medicine is great until it doesn't work, innocent western medicine is great until all of a sudden it hits an edge case and you realize how quickly you get to an edge case when something just. If you hadn't kept continuing to trust your intuition and trust, obviously this doctor you developed, like you said earlier, trust and credibility. Then you don't have.
You end up maybe three months later, four months later, with what, like something that. An elbow that healed poorly because, like. Or, yeah, infection post surgery, bad deal. And that's like, to open your lens and understand that, okay, maybe the prejudice or the preconceived notion you have about this thing is based off of a certain set of syntax that you might disagree with.
But if you could unburden that, you know, energy healing, whatever this thing is, and just say there's a way to communicate this that is very based in actual pragmatic understanding, it just opens up a lot more possible. And that, I think, is the thing that is really cool about just, I mean, like, is what I like to think of from an education
perspective. But even the tools you use, you're opening up a wider set of experiences someone can have that changes their perception about their body, that then restores hope. That I think is like the greatest gift you could give somebody. Open the blinders, remove the fear, be willing to know that you don't know, and try to recognize the patterns and opportunities in front of you that you don't know exist. Because everything brings this, closes this window to you. And
that's more so today than ever. That's amazing. That's the algorithm. That's it. That's a good point to wrap this up. So, yeah, if you made it all the way to the end here, you gotta go check out our interviewer today, Graham Tuttle, the barefoot sprinter on all his channels. Go to the Endless Evolution so you can find the links. But join me in this journey on personal development and all things science and the personal
curriculums that I've been putting together for decades. And this is obviously evidenced by his ability to just go through that and just. I can't imagine it would be like, just sitting, like, read the things you've codified off the top of your head. It's unreal. So it's ever evolving, so. The endless evolution. Well, thank you for having me. This is great. This is fantastic. Anything that you'd like to add on closing? No, just I. This
is. Just. Spending time with you has just been more of a wealth of experience and knowledge than I could have envisioned this. There's so many layers. Like an onion. No, you got layers. It's been a phenomenal day. It's been great. Awesome.