Welcome to the OPM podcast. APM is the charter body for the project profession. My name is Emma divita and I'm editor of projects, opm's quarterly journal. And your host today, I've invited three senior leaders from the world of projects who also contributed to apm's women in project management conference. This year I have with me some awesome director transformation that department of work and pensions Sharon Parker Brannon head of project at sellafield limited and a still don't
remember associate director. Eject controls at Macy's, also chair opm's risk Sig, so brilliant without the conference that we wanted to ask him to do this. Follow up Podcast for all of you who missed our exit and honest showroom experience, which I hope will not only help and Inspire those starting out in mid career but also be a source of wise, advice for those women listening, who are aiming to get to the very top of the profession. So Sam, Sharon is still welcome morning morning.
Good morning. Her joining us. And I think if we could begin perhaps with a brief introduction from each of you about, who you are, what you do. So perhaps, I'm could we go with you? Absolutely. Hi. Good morning, everybody. I'm Sam, Olson. I'm currently director of workplace transformation at the department of work and pensions. I've been a civil servant now for nearly 10 years. So, I've been a mixture of program leadership across the private.
Inspector at version Atlantic and now at within the Civil Service. Okay, thanks Sharon. I'm Sharon Parker Brannon I'm ahead of project at sellafield limited. What does that entail on a daily basis? It entails identifying projects that need to be delivered. Scorpion I'm out getting all of the approval and Assurance or that which he's quite a strategically. Lengthy process to go through in my industry and then actually hardcore delivery on site.
So that may be building new decommissioning taking down all And that's my dado. Thank you. And this fellow. Hi everyone. So my name is Delta table. I've got over 20 years of experience in working with project and driving initiative, predominantly with the area of environment and Technology required. All my experience, especially for the past decade on multi-billion pound project
infrastructure. And basically, yes a I like, you know, to empower and inspired individual because I believe that well, we all are capable of incredible things. Okay. Thanks and it might be useful for listens actually if each of you could give a short explanation of how you've got to weigh our sound, you want to give us a brief outline of your kind of career Journey. I can do I think all that affect thick is? But the best description of my career Journey.
I'm very much started out with my math degree from University. Not knowing what I wanted to do when I grow up I'm not sure I still do I'm completely on this but I did leave University as somebody reminded me of few years ago with a very clear journey in mind that was about gaining commercial experience to use of public sector. Good Which is how my career has
evolved. So I spent 10 years at Virgin Atlantic doing an array of sales and Commercial jobs which then meant I found myself running overseas markets and setting up an airline in West Africa called virgin Nigeria and that was my first opportunity to lead a huge program of work for an organization. It was quite a few years ago now and it was before any sort of formal Qualification.
I had a couple of really good strong project managers who ran my p.m. a for me, but I got such a personal passion and drive from seeing the delivery of something, I realized that it was something that was going to become part of my career moving forward. I then for personal reasons, had a family decided that when her life jumping on knock planes and thoughts that really, it was time to think about that public
sector. Good. So I Except for a couple of charity for a few years, helping them build new Services, children's homes, and leaving care services and found myself quite frustrated by this stuff called policy legislation. Guidance off said, all the stuff that Sharon completely be used to in her world. I thought. Well, if I'm going to understand how I can make an impact in this space, I need to understand how
it all works. And that's how I found myself in the civil service where I really have to ask. Ask myself what I was bringing to the Civil Service because I was coming with a commercial background as opposed to experience within the public sector and realized that actually what I was bringing with commercial program leadership and that was what I was bringing into the Civil Service. It was what makes me as a leader unique in comparison to those who've got far, more experience
of whitehall's and I have. And that's where my journey into program leadership started as since then. I've Reading for major government projects and I know do quite a lot to support women and people with dyslexia in the profession, I wanted to ask you about the different mindsets between working in commercial sort of sector in the civil service sector is that is that true?
Because many project professionals have the chance to do what you've done, which is to flip between Industries between sectors. Is how different is it? It working for the Civil Service that was working for a commercial organization. They regulate land.
Take remember we met showing the Virgin group has the customer at its core and and that is very much a driver but it is still a driver for profit and I think that is the big mind mind shift that you have to have when you come out of the commercial sector and move into the public sector. That driving point of your, they're either about growing the revenue line or about increasing profitability.
That's not what the public. Try out, you know, in the public sector, you're talking about value for money and you're delivering for Citizens. And in all the roles, I sent a very much about delivering for very vulnerable citizens. The other mindset shift is the sheer scale and complexity of what I have done in the public sector is so very, very
different. Now I thought Virgin Atlantic was big I mean nothing in comparison to the size of just DWP and Actually, whenever you're doing something in the public sector is never just in your department, it interacts with a number of other different departments. If you're working with vulnerable people, they touched on average about four different government departments. So that complexity of the operating environment, I would say is the other big shift, that's what you enjoy.
Is that something to you? You enjoy getting your teeth into. I do, you know, it can take, it means that it takes longer to get things done, you know, I often say Like when people say why do projects take so long in central government democracy literally gets in the way but having worked in countries where there isn't a democratic process, isn't it? Fantastic that we get Moxie in
the way. It's such a privilege to live in a country that is so Democratic. But the reality is that democracy can often slow down, large government major projects because things happen, you know, elections happen, changing parliament's happen. Changing, Ministers happens quite regularly to all these things mean that you have to on government major projects. Just initial that you are still in line with what the government of the day. It's looking for. Okay, thanks, Sam.
And Sharon. How did you get to where you are? So I started working at sellafield at the age of 17 leaving school knowing that I didn't want to go to university for a number of reasons. So I wanted a pay packet in my jean pocket to spend every weekend. So I joined sellafield 17 as an business environment. Finance Apprentice training, I spent Ten years in business and finance work.
Tomorrow you to be business manager, doing some quite transformational change Improvement, things with regards to how we run the business from a business and financial point of view and then I got bored. So I don't eat for a year ensured. It was embedded for a year and then I was like, I'm bored. I don't wanna do this anymore. I've done it to the highest level I can get to. I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. So fortunately I had to Fantastic managers at the time.
One that said, I think you'd be fantastic in operations and one that said, I think you'd be awesome in projects and there, I was given a year in each to determine where my career was going in the next phase of it. Don't operations, loved it didn't, particularly like it that much wasn't that good really, to be fair, I hadn't I hadn't been brought up off from the shop floor, so it took a lot. To learn it and understand it, it's complex.
I didn't underestimate that challenge done projects for the year and absolutely loved it every element of projects. So that was decision made at that point. I was, you know, I was at a high level of management in the organization but realized I needed to learn projects from the bottom. So went right back. Down the room. Next, to a project engineer to learn it all from the ground, all the way up. And then do all the various levels, we do through complex.
T levels at sellafield. So it's based on, you know, maybe complexity of risk, complexity of size. Those kind of things work through all of the levels of complexity to where I am now is head of project like Sam's, you said public sector and it's the only one I've ever experienced so we're Sons just said about profit. You know there are sectors are profit-making orientated. I've never been profit more making orientated.
I've never had that. Pressure on my shoulders from Project delivery, the pressure I've had on my shoulders is ensuring that I spend every taxpayers money. Wisely. And I spend it as if it's my own money. So different kind of pressure but very very conscious pressure all of the time. In any decision that I make. I said previously, I didn't go to university, I was fortunate enough during work to do my degree in business and finance funded by work. They release by work. Exactly.
The same as my Master's for project management. Funded by work day. Really East by work and it was a brilliant opportunity and at the period of my life. When I don't bother those things did release from work was just a godsend on how to to achieve that Sharon. What do you enjoy most about your job? Bringing the people along with me and I'm not gonna lie, I am a
like to be strong. So I like to achieve, I like to hit a milestone but bringing the people with me and then helping me do that is where I get the most enjoyment. Okay. Great. A stove, you come from a different angle in terms of your career, can you tell us how what you do now and how you got there? Yeah, so my kit well I started in another country so I'm from Belgium. So I've done my degree back then and I worked for a couple of big organization like Brunswick and Daimler Chrysler.
So from that I kind of, you know, wanted to change a bit and in and then starting to look through different Horizons and This is where I came along in the UK and my career started. Basically with crossrail is quite an interesting business, you know, starting a major infrastructure project, completely different type of organization where I used to work with different, different ways of thinking. So I think this is what helped me to move forward. My degree basically is in marketing.
So when you look at marketing, you looking always at opportunities, and this is what I think the industry and this country kind of helped me through. So, I am move to one level to the other, and, by being curious, I kind of move through. You know, the different different roles and today, working in Project controls is giving me again. That opportunity to be curious. Bring novelty to the Aunt, especially, you know, when we
looking at the technology. So obviously, when you're working in Project controls, you're looking at all those different aspect like Risk Management is something that is kind of well done. Now would say in the industry.
But looking with opportunities with eyes of innovation with eyes of New Perspective, I think this is what, you know, we need to bring a bit more positive on one project and this is what I'm trying to do. Thinking is well like bringing people together as it was mentioned earlier.
Is something that is quite interesting, obviously on Project. That's what we do is it will bring people together to achieve great goals and I believe that, you know, we working in challenging environment, we really need to make things, you know, working looking at, you know, future and And new position. And so, yeah, thank you talking about bringing people together and this podcast is being done. It was an inspired by women in
project manager. Apm's with him conference, which I understand you helped put together as well. I wanted to ask each of you. If, if the conference gave you any food for thought of anything, in particular resonated with you from that day, because I found it a really bossy event and You could tell that people were just enjoying being around each other and certainly to have a space like that that was predominantly women as well.
I think gave the conference in the day a kind of safety in terms of allow people to talk about quite you know openly and honestly about situations they found themselves in and was hugely valuable Estelle. Was there anything in particular that you you drew from a conference that gave you food
for thought? Yeah. So you know, the basis of whipping was kind of created because it was a safe space for women basically to talk about different challenges, they were cantering, you know, in the workplace and together they were finding Solutions and this is how whip him kind of bra. So that is an important aspect and you know, having women all together, I think we all buzzing
as you mentioned. This is really a great experience that when bringing women together is always like, bringing that positive energy and that great attitude of, you know, looking at things in different angle and with different attitude. What we need to note as well, is we need allies. You know, having women in the profession is great, but without allies without the men out there, helping us to be able to be ourselves. This wouldn't be Be able to happen.
And we were talking a lot during the conference about emotional intelligence promoting diversity for positive change. And I think this is it, we all coming from different background, real from different origin, we all did think differently. And, and I think this is what is bringing, you know, this this conference to a great to a great
hint. And I really believe that this is something that we need to continue and having, you know, well, continuing this experience, basically, would you like more with men to come along to the conference? I would love to yes, I think is important that, you know, we do
not separate each other. I realize that sometimes, you know, especially I think the in the industry, we kind of, you know, promoting women in the workplace which is great but we don't need to Forget that, you know, the guys that were there before, you know, they've done quite a lot of great journey as well. And without them we can't hear. I think we need to have some sort of a balance between having women in the workplace and only replacing, you know, some roles
that women. I think we need to keep understanding that we can hurt feelings as well. You know, it's just, I think he's important that we We keep that conversation and synchronicity between you know, everyone in the workplace I think thank you Sam. Anything particular resonate with you Say for me is opposed to try many of the different sessions.
I went to really interesting, but actually, what resonated to me, more of many things with the power of having so many, particularly young women at the start of their careers in one place, not seeing blast feelings that I certainly feel that I experienced when I felt that in my career just full of energy passion and A change of conversation. I think that has started to happen.
That's not so much. Now in this space when I started my career that was about women can have everything you just got to think about how you smashed the glass ceiling too far more of a space. Now of I want a career that can Flex around my life aspirations and those life, aspirations could be about being gay program leader and traveling the world or and herring. For parents or and having your own family. And it felt like a younger generation who were just a bit more fluffy dare.
I say, then I certainly was about what they wanted from their career as a whole, not just what they wanted from the workplace. The other things that really resonated with me was the number of conversations that we got into that was about the intersectionality of different.
Active characteristics. So some really interesting conversations with colleagues at the conference who have disabilities have caring responsibilities and a lot of conversations with beIN colleagues who were talking about some of the specific challenges, they find being ineffective that had historically a profession that had historically had a male bias towards it and how to come into the sector, not just, as a woman.
But a man A woman with maybe a black African background or whatever it may be really energizing and empowering conversation and some Sharon, how about you. So firstly it was an absolute honor to be a guest speaker at Along With Sam at our session. And secondly, I done the mentor session in the afternoon as well again, absolute honor to be asked to do that. I think the most resonated Thing For Me Above anything was the fact that women out there do
need help and support still. And I don't mean to deliver the day job, you know, the comfortable with what the need to do, and how they need to do, to successfully more to do with, how they structure their own development, and their own progress. So, like Sam said, meantime during the session, And the amount of people that came over and asked for advice were talking about issues and
concerns was quite alarming. So really positive that no issue with their job a little bit alarming with regards to Brahma from this problem. How, how would you advise me with that? And as a result of that, I'm sorry what, what problems or challenges were? They coming? So I talked with this is no structure within my Organization for any progression. I'm Can really hard, but I'm not being seen. How do I do that? So it wasn't about doing the job. It was everything that should
come along with doing the job. And as a result of that I have met with quite a few people after that and hopefully helped and advise them. So for me it was everything that the ladies of just said but for me I took away everything and yet there's still a bit more to be done, not with dear job, but a lot of the other as important elements of If you job with regards to, what did I take away? We talked about the empathy scale on the introduction of these. That just enlightened me where I
think I'm extremely intuitive. And it's one of my key strengths when I looked at that and sympathy versus empathy vast difference. So, that was the one thing I took away to educate myself on the empathy scale and then for me overarching, With regards to opinion on the conference in invigorated me, I love the level of honesty and openness. It was refreshing to a degree that I probably never seen with hundreds of people before and granted me a little bit.
You know, I sit in my own little Cocoon of sellafield limited and, and I when I have met a much wider audience, I think. Yeah, I maybe need to spread this peace, love and learning a bit bigger than what I'm doing at the moment, so, Grounded me a little bit. That's Association for project management. We know your most important project is your career but as a project manager, it's not always easy to make project me happen. That's where our membership can
help. We offer exclusive training qualifications and learning resources to keep your development on track. Join our 35,000 members and become part of the only charted membership body for the project profession. Open up your future AT AP m dot org chart. UK. Bearing in mind with what you said, the term about when you starting out with a different world to today. So I was going to ask you if you could give advice to younger self, what advice would that be? But actually I think I'd be most
interested think yeah? Reflecting. What you said term that, what's your experience now of being a senior leader in the project profession? And what advice would you give to say for examples of types of Of people who came along to the conference here in their 20s 30s or even sort of an older mid-career you're looking and have the ambition to step up to senior level. So the advice to the younger version of myself is, don't
worry about the pathway. Take the interesting exciting opportunities when they arrive and when you see them so taking that forward now to a new quite different Dynamic World thinking about, I've Like that for the Lost of conversations, with people who reached out at the conference, with both people trying to find their first job on the ladder. But also people starting to think about how they yeah make themselves. Seen and how they progress within an organization and my advice to them.
And to people within the civil services often there is something about stay with you. Focus on doing what you're doing. Really, really well, we can build Build ourselves personal development plans that are so focused on the personal development that we forget that.
Actually what people see is a job done really, really well and there's a balance there isn't that to not just be focused on the next thing but make sure you're delivering well in the day job and then in thinking about those next steps and how you build themselves. There is something for me that's about authenticity. You are who you are. I will pin to the office every day. As a member of TK with my dyslexia juggling a gazillion
different balls. That is who I am and I'm a people person who happens to have a math degree and that's all influences, the type of leader I am. And when I'm talking to people who are starting to think about their leadership Journey, there is something about spend as much time reflecting and thinking of what sort of person you are as much as workers you are in work. Take as much time as doing that, is you do thinking about what a leader needs to be.
Because you are you and for all the training and development that can happen in the leadership space, you've got to be able to do it in log then typically you way. So don't lose sight. When you're doing that leadership training, when you're thinking about the career progression, is this an environment? That's the right place for you and your leadership style. And what does that look like? And what? Two people? Valuing.
The others felt that being a woman has impacted on your career, either positively or negatively, is it something that you carry around with you every day?
So I will find a place where sharing a funny story that I said at the conference which is that very early in my career, I knew that as a woman, I had an ability to get him good for sales out of somebody that my older male colleagues couldn't do and and I, my Approach in my early 20s for that and women in their early twenties, now are horrified when I say this but it was a different context than the different environments.
I really felt that if somebody was going to be silly enough then that was the their fall and I should take advantage of it. The world has thankfully moved on, I would say since then and I think that the way being the woman has helped and caused me some challenges. I often look at the world quite
differently, too. Many of my male colleagues through the lens of program delivery I think in comparison to my mail Colleagues, I tend to look at the system through the lens of the people and be influencing the change, whereas I see my male colleagues often, look at the world from more structurally than I do and therefore how you bring those together and make that work together is really strong and is really powerful, but I sometimes question is that big woman or is
that being dyslexic? Who knows there's a whole different conversation that you could have? I found some Maybe Being a mum actually has probably influenced and created more barriers, which are as much about me grappling with how I want to prioritize. Work over family, perhaps differently at this stage, as to how I looked at the world before I had children, I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I've not been able to deliver something, because I'm a
woman. But I have encountered sexist comments and sexist remarks along the way. Way that I've always felt strong enough and empowered enough to call out and actually my experience has been if you call them out, once the person doesn't dare do it again. How did you do that in a way? That did you do that at the time? When someone said something or was it, did you then think about it and then react later to it? No, I call this how? Absolutely in the time in the moment, that's so weird. Yes.
How did you do it? What? Because it still happens, right? In some sectors, it still happens. What is so? So an effective way of doing it polite, way of doing it. So, I've always used humor Emma, so I have always found a way of doing it. So I found myself in meeting where some in Africa, right? Would be assumed I was a man. What I walked in the room because my name's Sam and I've had to explain that. No, you don't need to see mr. Olson. My husband worked for a
pharmaceutical company. Think you're here to talk about planes. I've done it in situations where somebody has assumed that I'm there to take two minutes which point actually, I've called out my dyslexia and said, no, really, believe me. You don't want the senior person with dyslexia in the room to be writings of in it. Since there's just something about using a bit of And professor of guys, stop it there. But that is not we're not in the 1980s and and it changes the
tone immediately. But I think it needs calling out and you've got to call us out because it's not a healthy environment. Thank you Estelle. Can you put together succinctly? All the advice? You picked up the advice, you'd give to the younger self and also any advice, you'd give to Women who are aspiring to get to the top to where you are now. Okay. So the list of, you know, the great advice for from my younger self is well I would like to say the first one is take the risk.
You know, just go ahead, don't stop yourself or, you know, with going for the things that you believe that are good for you. But even though people are saying you might not have the skills or the competencies, I think it worth trying. It was trying everything you know and if it's not the sector that sweetie well that's fine you move on to another one. There is always that opportunity and then another great advice I would say is ask questions ask many questions as you can.
I think that's the that's one of the basics you know. If you don't understand something just go for it. If you want to know a bit more about type of role or industry were just ask those people. You know, the world is now open. We're more open that used to be and what I'm noticing as well is you like to have someone that can be some sort of a mentor or a coach that can hold your hand when you know, you do not feel quite comfortable in certain times.
So you always want someone to give you a little push, you know? And give you some confidence that actually, you know, or just can answer your concerns or anyways. I I think being being able to talk to someone about your fear, I think is very important and, you know, obviously being a foreign in this country, you know, I didn't know quite well, the language start with.
So then you know, you need to find some people that you can kind of trust start with you know, and through my journey I had like a lot of great managers. Is that really believed in me? I think the me is being like, you know, finding those individual. Basically that give you that little push that move you to the next step on that ladder. And, you know, most of my manager always said to me is still be patient. Be patient. But obviously I'm not.
I like, you know, to go not only quick but you know I'm just thinking well if it doesn't go this way. I can change my roots and, you know, I think there is different ways of reaching the top. There is no one separates, you know, people say, well, is that not? When say that every route goes to Rome with something like that? Everybody please to Rome. There you go. That's the English for far away.
So so this is it, you know, I mean if you want to make your career, I think there is no 11, Yellow Brick Road, there are many and And I think this on that road, you need to find the people that can help you move. And that's the most important part, I think. Thank you. So, and and Sharon, what advice would you give to younger self or advice to people women, especially who are looking to
get to the top? I would say to you younger women, you are starting off with three superpowers, one, You female to you young three, you're going to have a drive to the level. You probably aren't going to see that level again, any career. But that level consistently do. Never let anybody make you believe that they are not superpowers because by God, they bloody our superpowers. Other advice would be very similar to the ladies. I'm not going to lie, it's all about.
Make a plan and workout too. Bloody deliver that Um so it's about having a development plan, what being very conscious that it should not be 100% work orientated. The development plans that I put in place for myself and all of my people that either work for me or a mentor a 50/50 it's 50 work. 50 life. So what you want to achieve in your life out of work, what you want to achieve at work. So get a development plan in place.
Get a mentor in place, have routine sessions in the diary with your line manager, do discussion any issues and topics volunteer for something outside of your normal day job, you know, show the Enterprise your organization, your company that you willing get that additional exposure with different people. Start with the mindset of no one else is going to look after you. So you have to look after you and then anything he get from.
That is an absolute bonus. So if you've got a brilliant team, great, we've got brilliant mentors. Fantastic. If you've got an awesome line manager perfect but start off the only use going to look after you. I like to think that with every touch I leave a Trace. Race. And I've got to be conscious of that. So be conscious of that in your early career because that could be positive or negative. But be very thoughtful that edit which, you have with any person will leave an impression and
opinion in a dress. And I think the key thing is just sealed, don't not see it. Don't not have the confidence to see, don't feel you're not experienced or knowledge enough to see if it's in your Brain, and you're thinking it just see it. The Daft questions probably nine times out of 10, of the most permanent questions that nobody is brave enough to ask or discuss. So Juiced seat. And would you also say just ask?
So you're saying, just ask questions, but I'm you talking about all of you about the you do your job, you do it brilliantly, but you also have to be seen to do it. Yes. Yeah. And I think do not have to recognize that it's just not enough to get on with the job. You actually have to share that what you're, what you're doing with the people. You have to think slightly politically, I guess as well to
make. Make sure people know what you've done and to to not feel shy about saying, look, I've done this, I dessert I deserve a pay rise, it's okay to ask for a pay rise and it's okay that maybe you won't get it, but you're showing. Look this is what I've done. I deserve to be heard, is that something that's something I found from my career? It is it something that you would advise to so all about the pier eyes element? So you've been real working really, really hard for 12
months. No one has seen what you have been doing, therefore why should they give you a pay rise? So take that, as an example, if you've got a development planning place that your line manager has signed on to that they're going to support you in. If you have got really clear objectives, identified for that year, that on your monthly meetings with your manager you're reviewing, there is no reason why at the end of your thoughts, I mentioned a PMA.
So Formance management assessment meeting, whatever it may be. At the end of that 12 month period. You have all of the evidence to show that you achieved what you said you were going to achieve. I think when you talk about sitting down and talking about appear eyes, it's all about the people who determine that all on the same page. This is what I expect, continual progress, monitoring of that expectation and it being visible transparent and open Okay, that sounds entirely logical.
I we've run out of time. I just wanted a final, your final thoughts are each of you, just how you feel about? How optimistic, do you feel about gender equality in the profession and how much more needs to change? Do you feel optimistic? Do you feel pessimistic? Sam Hey, there's one bit that we missed off the last conversation, which you could pick a color on in between everything we said about, I would like to call out, and
that's to say to everyone. When you go into the workplace, that doesn't mean you've left education. Every day is a learning day. You've got to keep continuously learning the world around. You, is changing the world around. You is evolving, you've got to keep up the distal ileum project leadership with what Is happening in The Wider environment all the time. They always say to everyone. Every day is a learning day as always, it's a wasted day. Am I optimistic where I think we
are? Well on the way there, I think we are really in a space now where I know that I've caught said that I've called out sexism when I seen it, I don't see it that much anymore, actually but it is up to the Next Generation coming up of male and female leaders to ensure that that parity continues and that there is a conversation to be had about what happened what is parity for women is quite an interesting place for me. So is parity feeling, you can
have it all and you can be 100% at home and 100% at home and represent at work leader. Or is that just completely exhausting? So I feel really optimistic I feel that the conversation is changing and evolving. That said I think that if you go back to that intersectionality point and start looking at women with caring responsibilities women from certain ethnic backgrounds and women with certain disabilities, I think there's still a long way to go
in those spaces. So a cell, any final thoughts. How do you feel about equality within the profession? For me. So I'm quite optimistic and I need to think about the Legacy as well.
So today as an individual, what is the Legacy, I want to give, you know, through the next generation and obviously this is what we're doing here today is and that's all we're talking about those issues and how we can tackle them and how we can find to do to the next level, and we can help change things and overcome those obstacles together and basically until until we succeed. We are that momentum and I think this is, you know, all of us today I enabling this movement.
Thank you, Sharon. Any final thoughts on the subject. How do you feel? Yes, I'm optimistic. I think we have still got a bit of a fight and I think that's Legacy of decades, were conscious choices for meals, have been taken. So, the conscious decision is always the introduce, the man in the room rather than the woman. And I think that we still have to work quite hard to get the quality in that.
I think we have to consciously be aware of decisions, made in decades, prior tools, history, to be able to get that equality. I think the most enlightening thing for me until I've actually seen it last week. I attended a managing construction course. So there was 20 employees on the managing construction course. In 18 of them were female never in my whole career. Have I ever been in a, in a meeting of any description that's been dominated like that?
I females. So, I am optimistic, and I am actually seeing it with my own eyes, which is, Outstandingly amazing. Thank you so much. I want to thank all of you for finding the time and passing on your wisdom, and to listen, especially those who couldn't make it to the conference. So it's been a really positive and quite emotional. So, thanks again for everyone.
It's been brilliant. Thank you, thank you, thank you, appreciate it. Thanks again to Samuelson Sharon Parker Brandon and the start of the traveler for joining us and to you for listening to this episode of the Opium poppy. Just don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your podcast. You'll find us on Spotify, Apple podcast, Google podcasts and
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