Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host today. This podcast, we're talking about simplicity. It's a topic that crops up relatively often when I interview senior project professionals about how they make the delivery of their projects a success, and one therefore worth exploring for
you. To get to the bottom of this deceptively complex subject, I'm joined by Nathan Hellebrand, global delivery director of Babcock International Group, who's bread and butter is highly complex projects, and Mike Hudson, Interim strategy Management Director at the National Trust. Both are chartered project professionals, so listen on to find out their advice and their thoughts on keeping things simple. I'd like to welcome both of you to the APM Podcast.
Thanks for joining me today. I think let's begin by each of you giving a brief overview of your role and what that encompasses, and perhaps an idea of the kinds of projects you'd lead. So Mike, would you like to go first? So I'm the interim strategy management director at the National Trust and the, the kind of units I suppose is the best way to describe it that I, I, when we, we kind of encompass strategy planning, research,
PMO, performance and insight. And so we kind of operate at that kind of enterprise level supporting the exec team. So that I suppose the role of the team is really around providing high quality impartial advice, kind of critical friend type, well, lots of actionable insight and we kind of own a number of organisational processes. So it's keeping those as streamlined and as integrated as
possible. So we kind of managing kind of risk, but not getting in the way of people getting things done because ultimately it's about us delivering our strategy. Sounds great. How many project professionals do you have within the National Trust and can you give an idea of the types of projects or programmes people are working on? Yes. So we have I think at the last count over 450 project professionals in the organisation, a range of of
different types of projects. So we have projects around restoring nature. We've got projects around conservation, which is probably the thing that you would most associated associate us with commercial type projects. So food and beverage, retail, that sort of thing. And then we've got a whole gamut of marketing IT, probably most things you can think of. We do quite a lot of civil engineering. We have lots of reservoirs and regulated structures and things like that to look after.
So yeah, a whole kind of range I would say. OK. Thank you. And Nathan, can you tell us a bit about your role and the kinds of projects you work on? Absolutely. So I'm the global delivery Director for Babcock. I sit within our Chief delivery office for the group and that's made-up of a number of functions which includes project management, procurement, quality, IT and cyber engineering, transformation and facilities.
And my role encompasses developing and delivering our strategy and key cross functional programmes that we're we're doing across those functions within CDO. And then also the other half of it is providing a level of governance and assurance across the group to a number of our
customer facing programmes too. And Kyle, what programmes the are you working on right now without going to specifics obviously so. Within within my team, we are leading some large digital transformation programmes. So looking at some of our kind of key enabling capabilities across the group for delivery, we what my, my previous role before this within the organisation was professionalising the project management function with, with
Donna Cynic as well. I think you did that one the last conversation or we've had with her. And so that was another kind of big operating model challenge that involved process, procedure and people. So a quite diverse set at the moment and more to come in 2026 as well. OK, sounds exciting. I it's a bit of an unusual topic, simplicity in projects.
I don't think that's probably on any exam paper or framework I'm, I imagine, but something that I've heard the more senior people I talk to in projects, the more this idea of simplicity comes up. And there's a quote from Steve Jobs of Apple that that was in Business Week when he says simple can be harder than complex. You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple. But it's worth it in the end because once you get there, you can move mountains.
Would you agree with that place of you? Yeah. I mean, I would, I would totally agree actually. I think the more complex projects I've been involved in over time, the more complex they get, the greater the need for simplicity for lots of reasons, but not least for the people who are involved in delivering them.
So I think it's it's vital and the, I suppose the more senior you get, the more that becomes part of what you can bring to that kind of project and the kind of context environment that people are operating in. When we talk about simplicity, is it simplicity in understanding what what what the outcomes are? What the purpose is? What do you think of when you consider simplicity in complex projects? The starting point for me would always be the vision of the project and the kind of related
set of objectives. So I suppose in my career I've I've been involved in projects at different stages. I've started off early stages and had to work to to get that in place. But I've also picked up projects part of way through. And if you're in a kind of turn around situation, I would say that quite often that's the place to start. You can ask some quite simple and straightforward questions about what what people think
they're doing and why. And if you get a whole variety of answers, then it starts to tell you that you're not, you're not kind of getting that kind of level of cut through that you would, you would want to. So really kind of honing in on those objectives. And as Steve Jobs says it, that may take a little bit of time, but that's, that's it. It pays back I think in in spades if you do that. Nathan, what are your thoughts around that?
I completely agree. And I think simplicity is is an underestimated value and it's something that you learn to appreciate more as you become more involved with bigger, more complex programmes and something that you learn. I think sometimes we think that complexity is a way of justifying contribution or, or making it seem like we know what
we're we're talking about. And I can't remember who said it, but to kind of build on, on what we talked about, I think complexity is the enemy of execution. I think that's very true. OK. And Mike, what have you learnt about simplicity in projects? It's a bit of a big question, but and when did you start thinking about this idea of simplicity?
A few years ago I did a online course around leading complex projects and as part of it you have to have a a complex project or programme to to use as a case study. And it made me reflect that. I don't actually often reflect. I'm quite a doer, quite a pragmatist. So forcing myself to kind of reflect on what I'd learnt from running a complex programme over the course of kind of six weeks.
It the, the kind of breakthrough moments we had was where where we made things simpler and we we made things clearer for people. I think when you start your career in kind of project management, you're so keen to to get the thing done and understand that you'll be starting on relatively straightforward things. But it's only as you get into more and more kind of complex situations, especially with stakeholders, both internal and external, we can over complicate
things. And what a lot of the time what people crying out for is just cut through simplicity. So it's, I would say it's around the kind of vision objectives. It's also around team roles and around making sure that they're simple and understandable for people. And then most importantly around decision making. So what's the sort of minimum information we need to make a decision? Who has those decision rights and then keep the momentum going?
Because complexity can kind of stifle momentum, I would say. So when you're working on through a project, wherever you are in the life cycle, do you consciously look through a lens of trying to keep things simple as you work through the project cycle? If you join a project part way through or whatever, is that top of mind or do you just, is it just a kind of like regular check you think to yourself or when there's a problem, you think, how can we make this
simple? It's just how you actually make it work in practise. Yes, a good question that I think it's a, it's probably a slightly unconscious thing. It was probably not top of mind. But I think the more complex projects that you work on, it's so difficult to keep everything to keep everything in in one's head. So you're relying on lots of other people. You rely on everyone else doing their roles well.
So for me, it's about keeping the environment that people work within kind of as straightforward as, as possible. So I probably do consciously do that. I'm not always thinking every single situation. We've got to make, you know, simplicity is the thing. But I do think there's something about, yeah, you just asking me these questions, but yeah, really makes me reflect, I think how how do you do this? But I think it is about making that operating environment straightforward for people.
So does that mean? Is that translation to kind of clear and direct communication and decision making? I think that's a huge part of it. I think as we were saying before, some people can try and hide behind complexity, but also you get a huge range of stakeholder opinions around complex projects. And I suppose not everyone's going to get their way. But if you if you operate in an environment where everybody thinks they are getting their way, it's, it's ultimately
counterproductive. So I think there's something about in a polite and helpful way cutting through a lot of that when you can and getting that kind of and I think clarity, decision making is hugely important. Nathan is, I mean, what have you learned about simplicity in projects and is it a conceptual and approach to projects that you've deliberately thought about over your career? Is it something that's just surfaced as you've gained more experience with complex projects?
But I think it's a bit of both. So you know, my career has been within engineering based projects and programmes and I started, I didn't have an engineering degree.
So when I first started in the industry, I found it a huge challenge to understand the complexity of some of the projects that I was in. And so that gave me a real appreciation for one, understanding what's happening, but also the needs to be able to simplify in a way that you can get many stakeholders linked to a project or a programme to a point that they understand what you're trying to do and how you're trying to do it. And, and that is really for me a
key in being able to, to deliver successful outcomes. So part of it, I think was born from a place from where I started. But the more you get involved in more complex programmes, the more you realise that you you won't have all the answers. And so recognising that actually being able to use everything you're disposable and the breadth of experience and stay across who you're working with to help drive different thinking so you can simplify complex
problems is is really important. So, so I think it's a bit of both. I think it's something that that I encountered quite early on, but it's something that the, the more you, you, you kind of developed your career in project management that you, you really need to bring to the forefront
of how you're managing. It's making me think that the idea of having diversity within project teams where people have come from different backgrounds, have different ways of thinking, actually prompts the people who are leading that or managing it. Explain it in simpler terms. So it's kind of checking in that you understand at the core what the project's about or what you're setting out to deliver. Is it? Would you agree with that, Nathan? Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think that's
completely true. You know, your, your strength is in diversity. Having, having, having one answer from one person all the time is, is not conducive to delivering complex programmes. And so I think that's a huge part of it. Mike, I'm going to ask you, how do you go about setting up a project or kick starting a project when you first begin working on one of establishing this? I guess it's a culture of simplicity or keeping things as simple as possible.
Would you have any advice to people who are thinking, yeah, this, this makes sense? I'd like to give it a go, but translating it as a kind of ideal into everyday life, is there any advice you would give? I know I've mentioned this before, but I think just going back to that kind of vision and objectives side of things, I just think it's so important. And I think Nathan was saying before you've got, you've got a
wider project team. So not just your own organisation, but the other organisations, organisations that you're working with. Everybody's kind of understanding that elevator pitch for the project. Then you're giving yourself a much greater chance of succeeding you, you're giving yourself a much greater chance of working well together because you're all pointing at the same
same thing. So investing time in really understanding everybody, understanding and playing a part in the vision, developing it so they own it as well. And also the objectives that kind of flow from that.
One of the techniques that I learnt some years ago is this, it was called House of Success, snappily titled, but it's essentially you spend time working out your objectives and you, you get into quite interesting conversations about you, you start to categorise them into what's are absolute Givens that you, you don't want to trade off what, which objectives are, are you prepared to trade off and, and which kind of objectives might you want to kind of optimise?
And that as as with all these sorts of things, the strength of that is it's actually in the conversation that you have with the with the group, not necessarily in the kind of sort of neat output. Nathan, I wanted to ask you then if you have any practical advice around setting up a project's culture to be as simple as possible, to value simplicity and and as part of that, as a project manager, as a project leader, how do you role model it?
I'm just trying to give advice, pass on advice to those who think simplicity is a great idea, but actually putting it into practise is a bit of an unknown. Yeah, absolutely. So I think when you're starting a project or you're mobilising on a project or programme, one of the things which getting to you can get a team to focus on is the rule which is it whatever we're doing, if it's, if it's not adding clarity or value, then it's it's likely making
things more complicated. And so when we're approaching how we write our artefacts, whether it's governance documents, our project plans, our terms of reference, whatever it might be, I think sometimes there's a tendency to think that we need to write more or we need to we need to create more to justify the work. And that's sometimes not true.
Actually, less is more and you so, so getting people to think about that and making sure that that's something they live and breathe by when they're creating material throughout the life of the programme. But but as early as possible goes along later, making people feel comfortable that that less is more. And we can simplify success by kind of following that, that guidance. I think that's a practical thing people can do.
I think that the other piece from a behavioural perspective is, you know, I have no shame in asking people to explain things like I am like, like, like I'm like, I'm a child. Sometimes the, the more simple you can make things, the easier it is. And there is no, there is no silly question. Often if you're thinking it, someone else is probably thinking that as well. So the, the rule is there are no silly questions.
Ask if you don't understand, because if you don't, we're not going to make progress and, and making that acceptable and making people understand that there shouldn't be any social fear in saying I don't understand. It's it's a powerful thing to to breed simplicity. Thank you. That sort of taps into this psychological safety, which is a bit of a hot, hot topic within project management and allowing people, giving people the freedom to ask those questions. Because I was thinking what the
barriers are to simplicity. And one of them is the fear of looking as though you don't know what you're talking about or there's a lot of jargon in project management. And there's a fear that if you keep things simple, that you'll perhaps not as expert as you ought to be. You don't sound as so how how you think you should sound is that is that is that valid, Mike? I, I think it's absolutely valid and I think is everyone's got a
part to play in that. So as if you're a, you know, leader, senior responsible, only if you're a sponsor, you can kind of set the tone for that sort of thing. You know, so making sure, making sure people understand that the idea of psychological safety, that there's no deaf questions and, and actually in a way that's, that's encouraged and
you can be honest yourself. I mean, years, years ago, I, one of the things I did was I was a programme director of a renewable energy programme and I said to the the team at the beginning, if you, if you're thinking you've, I'm an expert on renewable energy technology, you've you'll be sadly disappointed because I, because I'm not, I'm, you know, I've got a running programmes, but I'm not a kind of technological
expert. So, you know, to Nathan's point before, give me the really kind of Noddy explanation for all of these things. So I understand, you know, how they work. I think it's that sort of thing is really important and that so people feel able to just ask those questions because quite often it's the person who asks the really kind of, you know, simple question that gets to the heart of the matter. Thanks, Mike.
Actually, I'd like to ask both of you if you could give any practical examples of simplicity and action through a project or programme. Whereas it's a sore thing or it's a bigger thing, perhaps it's part of the turn around of a project. But Mike, is there anything that you could share with us? So I can share a relatively
recent example. So I'm the sponsor of a large complex project and, you know, we regularly kind of reviewing the finances of that project and you can end up being sent these voluminous spreadsheets with all this data in and all these different variables. And I suppose I said to the team I what I'd like to see is a financial summary for this project on a single slide that covers its entire life with the main, you know, items of expenditure and.
That's the level I wanted to tap because I just kept finding that we were going into such levels of detail. And I know, and people need to do that. I get that that's part of people's jobs, but they were going into such levels of detail that we were, you know, people were getting lost. And yeah, we had a had a situation where forecasts were changing quite substantially and it felt like we hadn't seen it coming.
And I, my view of why we hadn't seen it coming was because we were getting, we were just in far too much detail, too much complexity. So if we just kept it simple, that would have made a big difference. So now on a monthly basis at the project board, we just have a, a single slide which shows the, and this is a project that's running for 10 plus years and costing 10s of millions of pounds. And so, and it's just kept, it's just made it so much simpler. So hopefully that useful
example. Yeah, that is and something that touches on another massive topic, which is data and AI. And there's going to, there's more data available to people than ever before working on a project. And also then the added complication of AI is it, is it making it harder then to deliver simplicity or to think things through simply, do you think? I don't think so because I think it's, but then it's for us as project professionals to, to not let that happen. So there's something about AI
can be hugely useful. We've used it recently to do a kind of full drains up review of all our risks. So obviously it can churn through a lot of data quite quickly. But so I think he asks different questions of the project professionals and the project managers. So in the past you may have spent a lot of time yourself going through all that data, generating the kind of reports, etcetera.
But it's shifting us into a position now where our job is to interpret and, and kind of analyse the, the kind of data. And that's where I think having that mindset of simplicity can really help, you know, what are the 3-4 big things that are really going to get in the way of us delivering this thing? Not the 300 items on the risk register.
Nathan, what are your thoughts on this and and can you give any kind of practical examples of where you've managed to make things simpler in a project and and that it delivered benefits to you? Yeah, absolutely. So we've had a recent or fairly recent programme which I I would describe as a as a as a complex programme, but actually operating in an even more complicated environment.
What I mean by that is lots of different stakeholders across multiple functions compounding actually how difficult it is to deliver. And within that, that brought a lot of challenge with people either understanding or misunderstanding who was accountable and empowered to make decisions. And so something may be agreed somewhere in a different meeting which would then be undone in a different meeting etcetera, etcetera.
And we need to simplify that and, and one of the things or the tools that we really focused on was focusing on what the decision rights are at simplifying the decision rights across the the programme so that people had clarity on specifics on what was within their gift to make a decision on. So actually bringing it back to life and saying you are responsible for this decision, you are not responsible for this decision, etcetera, etcetera. And that helped us do two
things. It helped simplify that chain and removed some of that either confusion or differing of opinions and it empowered people and allowed people to go faster because we had a much simpler approach. So that for me was that was a good example of how you need to bring simplicity in that case to the environment that you're operating in for that type of programme. Thanks. So it seems that simplicity goes in hand, hand in hand with clarity.
Then when it comes to working on projects, I'd like to ask both of you what what your final pieces of advice or any kind of food for thought that you'd like to pass on to get to get people towards on the path towards greater simplicity in projects?
Mike. I suppose my one piece of advice to people would be to to have the courage to, to kind of go for it. So learning to say, you know, no to scope creep, no to over engineering and kind of yes to simplicity because especially in the early stages of projects, I think there so much of what we've talked about you can get
on top of early in projects. And if you put the groundwork in a bit, the example that Nathan was just giving before about the kind of decision rights kind of matrix, I think is really helpful. And so that takes a bit of time. And so, so sometimes you may have stakeholders breathing down your neck going, come on, just get on with the thing. Whereas actually investing in a bit of simplicity and clarity upfront just helps you go so much faster later. So yeah, have courage and I would say.
Thank you. And Nathan, any final pieces of advice you pass on? You know, I'd really reemphasize that. Focus on the culture and the behaviour for simplicity. As soon as possible or as early as possible, Getting that right will flow through to everything that you do, whether it's process, tools, and I think I mentioned earlier around thinking about whether what we're doing is, is adding clarity or value. And if it's not, is it, is it really helping us simplify how
we're trying to deliver? But if you get the culture right, you know your elite complexity for breakfasts. So for me that that would be the thing to focus on. I I just want to thank both of you for this really interesting conversation on simplicity. Thank you. Thanks very much for having me, great to talk. Thanks to Nathan and Mike for joining us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rating reviews.
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