What makes a great project leader?

Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for the project profession. My name is Emma Devitra and I'm the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host

today. In this podcast I'm joined by two leadership experts, Doctor Paul Chapman, Senior Fellow at Saeed Business School at the University of Oxford, and Gordon Mackay, Project Management Capability Lead at Sellafield, who also provided subject specialist knowledge for a new APM Learning module on Leadership of Self, which is coming out soon. The module explores steps you can take to become more self aware and outlines how this will help you develop the ability to lead others.

I'm asking Gordon and Paul to delve deep into their experience and research to pass on their advice on what it takes to be a great project leader in 2025. I'm sure it hasn't escaped you that leadership and project management is a hot topic. Now more than ever, there's a realisation that leading projects and programmes successfully requires people who are collaborative, inclusive and empowering. It sounds great on paper, but it can be a tall order to achieve

in real life. So to help you, let's hear from Paul and Gordon about what they've learned from their many years of experience. So welcome both. Why has leadership becoming an even more important part of project management? Because I think it has. I think the people side of delivering projects and programmes has become extremely critical and you know, a point of much discussion. Why do you think that is Paul?

Well, I think, well, we can link it directly back to to the world of projects and and I think let's start with remembering Martin Barnes of blessed memory, former president of APM and also the major Projects Association. And Martin wonderfully captured project management is people getting stuff done. And it's just such a nice, clear definition, and there's lots of kinds of projects and there's lots of kinds of people, but it really cuts the heart of the work.

And it helpfully contrasts with the slightly technocratic view. Some, like project management is it's the knowledge set. The knowledge set is really important. There are better ways of getting projects done. And I think Martin wonderfully made us connect back to its people and where there's people and where there's people working in not just ones and twos, but groups and teams. And at organisational level, we need some sort of order and structure. And I think that's one of the

roles that leadership plays. I think we also need to be careful to tease out management. Good management is really important. And then there's this slightly ephemeral thing of leadership and, and hopefully we've got a bit of time we can try and prod and poke it and work out what it is. Well, let's start prodding now. What what is the difference in your mind between what makes a great project manager and what makes a great project leader?

Because there'll be project managers listening to this thinking, what if I just carry on doing a good job, perhaps that I'll automatically become a project leader. But I know what has served you well in the past is not necessarily what will serve you well in the future. So if, if there are people in that position now, what is the difference? I think, I think maybe to kick off, I'd encourage everyone to reflect. Yeah. What is this leadership thing?

And then there's a sort of you, you know it when you see it and encourage everybody to think they, they were really good managers and they were nice people and they were great colleagues. And then somewhere in this, there'll be some people who start to stand out and they might be in positions of seniority. So senior leaders. And sometimes it's like, no, no, they're just people occupying a role and a chair and they're

doing their job well. But some of the leaders might be actually amongst our colleagues, amongst our peers. And I think one of the places that leadership has evolved in recent times is recognising the leadership role of people in relatively junior positions and maybe early career. And that stands out in things like the changes in technology that we're all experiencing. And we sort of feel a little bit out of the depth. And the world has moved on

quicker than we have. And it's like, who do we go to for help and support? And sometimes that's technical stuff. Well, well, you do it like this. But we also see in early career people that they're taking a somewhat bigger role. It's not the things and the stuff. We can get leadership coming up. We can get leadership from peers as well as the more conventional

view of from seniors. So let's let's kind of again spread our spread our net pretty wide in, in terms of how we think it. But I think there's something intuitive here. We tend to know it when we see it. That's interesting point, Gordon, what's your take on things? Why? Why do you think leadership has become an even more important part of project management? And would you agree that leadership now can be spotted or appreciated early on in your career rather than thinking you

have to climb the career ladder? And it's it's the number of years you've got under your belt that is what makes you a leader? How are things changed? As Paul was talking there, I was came to mind a book I read many, many years ago by an author called Trevanian called Shibumi, and it's a Japanese concept. And Shibumi, they say, is somebody with authority, without domination. The person that comes into the room, they don't assert themself with that kind of traditional

stereotypical alpha male stuff. They quietly come in, but somehow people listen. Another angle on this is how I differentiate between leadership and management. If I come into the room and I'd say to you, I'm your manager, I'm invested with authority by the organisation, people recognise and acknowledge that. But if I come into any context and I say I am your leader, then there'll be quite a few people. For me, the idea of leadership is something which is you, you

compliment somebody with that. It's it's something that's offered rather than demanded. It's conferred the idea of leadership that gives you the feel of where I see leadership coming from. And a big driver for this is out in the organisational environment of project delivery, in particular reflected in the APM Body of Knowledge 7th and 8th edition, where we're moving from stakeholder management to

stakeholder engagement. And that in and of itself speaks volumes to me that just as previously we would think of Jack Sparrow engaging with the enemy stakeholder management and doing that kind of thing, today we're in an environment where very often the people that I need to deliver my project as a project leader, I'm not even in my organisation. I have no organisational authority over that person which demands therefore these stakeholders.

I cannot, I can engage with them on one level, but I'm trying to secure engagement from and between diverse stakeholders within and without the organisation. And in many organisations we now have many multidisciplinary areas made even more complex by the the Internet of Things and the level of intercontinent connectivity and

interdependence. So in in terms of leadership, the function and form of leadership reflects the fact that on the one hand, organisational structure, the project delivery organisation is multidisciplinary, trans organisational often. And in addition to that, the delivery environment for projects today has gone through a quantum change from those days when I had command over that

environment. I'm going to deliver in, I could say who could do what when now with many stakeholders, I have to negotiate, imagine HS2 just to get access to go and work on that piece of land. And so, so the whole delivery environment is much more complex.

Plus the fact that the level of interdependence means there are so many different organisations contributing as I do my project plan going forward and my critical path, the number of interdependencies has escalated, you know, geometrically, you know, hyperbolically. So therefore the function of me in delivering that project, I cannot by definition manage. I don't know anything about all the situations out there.

I need to deliver an agile, adept organisation, transportation or team that is able to navigate complexity. And that's at the heart. And that's the shift from management, where it's somebody who's a subject matter expert telling everybody what to do, to a situation where I'm trying to draw upon and bring together many diverse experts in a collaborative agile team that can navigate that complexity in

an efficient and effective way. I want to try and get to the heart of what successful project leadership means right now and what does it take to be a highly effective leader. And it is about this idea of kind of kind of earning followers. I think it's like you said, it's not just about coming in and saying I am your leader, which does make me laugh, OK. I can't imagine it would be tempting to be able to do that in some instances.

But also the volatility, the complexity stuff is changing all the time. And when I've spoken to people about all the tech developments right now and AII mean it is accelerating at the fastest ever. There's no constant anymore. There's always something to kind of be able to get your head round.

So to go back to this, what, what does it take to be a leader, a good leader, a great leader Right now, I'll draw a little on some of some of the things that, that I do at, at Oxford. So one of my jobs is so I, I run the UK government's major project, Leeds for Academy. And yeah, it's a, it's a brilliant role. And I've done that since 2012, which turns out was quite a long

time ago. And, and when trying to teach leadership, because that's what we do, we've been doing it this week with a group you, you've kind of got to have a frame of reference. And so have spent quite a bit of time just trying to boil it down. And I'm happy to, to go here's, here's something that that's a work in progress. But you know, we've we've been working on it for a while and it's seems to be getting there. We we draw upon some of the work, yeah, the work of others.

And, and, and one bit of work I think is really useful for anybody thinking about leadership is is a book written by a couple of colleagues, David Pendleton and John Cowell and their Co authority, Adrian Furnham called No More Heroes. And buried in there they get to the tasks of leadership. And so they've really kind of pared this back. What is it leaders do? And, and, and they suggest

there's five things. And it's like, really it you've sounded super complex and and you've brought it down to five things go you. And yeah, it's always more complicated, however useful. And they say what leaders do is they inspire. And that's maybe some of the points we're touching on here. It's beyond management. And the inspire bit is creating a sense of psychological purposefulness. Why is the thing that we are doing, because it's a collective important and how is it

important to you? So I think a job of a leader is to go, here's an important thing and this is how it connects to you. And so it makes a makes a big issue, quite a personal issue. Great. We're all on board. There's lots of us. There's many things to do Next job focus out of the many things we could be doing, we are going to do this and there's a little bit of getting agreements to that. Some of it's also to lead is to show the way.

It's also providing direction. So you've got to have a bit of positional authority, but you've more got to have the authority that comes with knowing and and often having experience and maybe a track record. So that's maybe why some of the leaders are in senior roles and they've got a, they've got a bit of mileage under the bonnet because having done it before does give you the ability to talk a little bit. Great. We've inspired, we've focused.

And then the secret sauce, if we were to ask what is leadership, there's a version of it which is enable others to succeed. So task three enable this is the no more heroes ideas. You can't do everything yourself. A really good leader enables others. They've created the the place and that's maybe where we kick into the second big idea, psychological purposefulness, great psychological safety. You can be you in the

organisation. If it's at work, bring the whole you to work, not, not the bits that you're trying to hide because, you know, we've all got sort of interesting quirks. Yeah, yeah. No, bring those two, you know, in your fullness and richness and marvellousness. Inspire, focus, enable, reinforce. Because we are on the journey. Things and stuff will happen. People will have brilliant ideas.

Yeah, they're all brilliant. However, back, back to focus and then the bit which sometimes gets left off because in the world of projects in particular, we are in a hurry. Learn how do great organisations get better over time? How do teams get better over time? How do people get better over time? It's making sure there is a place and a space to learn, to kind of step back, to reflect, to do a doodle, to write a poem, to draw a picture, to, to, to write a blog post for the APM,

you know, whatever floats you. And then you go that that's it. Wow. And so thanks, Thanks David, John and Adrian for for kind of spending a bit of time to think through that on their experiences. And so sometimes, yeah, on a dark night and I'm pondering, you know, what's what is this leadership thing, because it take you many directions. That's one of the places that I come back to. Yes. Which what do leaders do, Gordon? What what what's what do you think about that?

Is there anything you'd like to add, agree, Disagree with? Oh, I agree. Certainly. Yeah. I resonate a lot with what we're saying there. And there's a couple of things that came to mind. There's a gentleman called Dave Marquet, not Mackay, MARQU EE. He wrote a book called Turn the Ship Around. He was appointed to take charge of the worst operating submarine in the American fleet, as assessed, and within a year he turned it round to best. And then in addition to that, more people went on.

Officers went on to become captains of ships subsequently who'd worked for him and his approach to this, we're talking about enabling there was when people came to him with a problem of challenging. So what's your intent to foster that engagement and give people motivation, a vision, inspire them to enable others to rise up? And I think that's a great way of dealing with complexity.

It's a little bit like as well in project delivery these days in critical chain, for example, we're trying to identify constraints and being aware and a little bit about learning.

As we're going through the project now, it's increasingly important to as, as another thought, Doctor Sabrina Cohen Hatton, she's chief fire officer, and she instigated a new technique whereby when the incident commander lands at the scene of fire and looks at Grenfell Tower burning, and then they look at one thing, they look at another thing and basically they're building an observational bias. I've got this picture in our terms. How am I going to deliver this project?

Yes, I know exactly what I'm going to do. And then Sabrina Cohen Hatton's interjection comes in and she says, what have you missed? And all too often with projects, we're failing to do this on an ongoing basis in the sense particularly of what's changed, what are the critical factors, what are the constraints and delivery to be learning all the time, learning from the good, learning from the bad.

And we do a risk assessment. We should also be doing opportunity assessments on a regular basis because things are changing all the time. You might be able to say by something that's available, wasn't available yesterday. So I think that learning thing, particularly in a complex delivery environment and a key factor in successfully navigating complexity is to become a consistently open to new learning that builds in a level of modesty. No, I don't know everything. A lot less egocentric.

I'm prepared to learn and listen to others. I'm encouraging people to contribute and tell me if they're aware of a different perspective of something happening that I might not be aware of. So this enabler function I think is key and offering that sense of trust that people feel they can speak up and come forward, enabling people to realise their potential as individuals.

And under the Hersey Blanchard level, for the APM people to step back in the Tuchman bit, are we forming, storming, norming, taking people to evolve through that whole thing? I think all too often people on the Hersey Blanchard get stuck in the directing. They never get through to the coaching level. And we should be doing that with individuals and the team. How is the team operating? Is Jack talking to Jill? If not, why not?

What I can, what can I do to to foster communications, that kind of thing. Have you got any advice on creating the right kind of culture as a leader? Because you have that responsibility. Whether or not you realise it, you are a role model and people are looking to you for direction in a way that they don't from their manager. I think the key one in that for me, I go back to Eric Byrne and transaction analysis and the idea that in management terms we're very often talking parent

child communications. It tends to be one way, It tends to be quite assertive and and for me counterproductive. Taking the Dave Rock neuroscience model, the SCARF model, you actually inhibit people's neurological performance by relating to them in that way, whereas with the more adult adult form, and this also ties you in another conversation earlier. And they're about leadership and we tend to traditionally think of leaders and followers.

I think in this context, to be effective, it's leaders and team members because we're trying to close that gap and bring the team members upwards rather than keeping them all followers do as I say, not, you know, that kind of thing. So the adult adult conversations to Foster and bring out the best in everybody, I think is key. So communication should reflect

this adult, adult relationship. If I come to you as a culture and mentor and a mentor, not in the dictatorial sense, but somebody that's on your side, building mutual respect, building rapport, rather than trying to dominate and command and control, it'll be far more effective in soliciting and enlisting the best and that person realising their potential. Yes, and I think, I think the mood music in an organisation is sort of indicative of the

culture. So you know, and sometimes storytelling can help, but a lot of it was just just observing behaviour. So storytelling is occasionally who are the heroes, who are the villains? You know, sometimes it's getting people to reflect back on experiences, you know, what worked well, what did not work, work so well. And that's, that's sort of bringing in a learning culture, I think being reflective on.

And if I, if I can come on to sort of a slightly wider point, what one of the frames that that we're trying to encourage people to, to look at is, is how they lead a project and how they lead themselves. And the challenge here is understanding yourself. And there are Ways and Means to do that. And then understanding your impact on others. And there's Ways and Means to do

that. So in terms of learning about yourself, because personality, you know, kind of two or three years post puberty's fairly, fairly settled. So you, you can kind of do psychometrics on people and then do it later on. If it's a good psychometric, if it's reliable, it, it, it suggests that personality is quite stable. Our, our preferred 1 is the, it's known as a neo. It measures the big 5 factors of

personality. That's that's I think the the best regarded measure of that and just helping people understand themselves. This what one of the personality characteristics people are most familiar with is sort of introversion, extroversion, one of the five, and then there's four others. Helping understand yourself helps you explain how you behave in different settings. Great, there's a bit of that's you.

Most people have that. They've got sort of natural talents that have helped them in their lives and careers. Many people have recognised that there's work rounds they need to do that. The introvert extrovert things. Most introverts worked out that the world is mainly built for extroverts and they will mimic extrovert behaviours even though it could be quite tiring. And the other 4 characteristics have similar sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

So one of them is it's, it's known as neuroticism, which is also often as a pejorative thing, but it's emotional reactivity. So some type of people with low emotional reactivity just really stable, but they miss a lot. And people who are sort of, you know, high emotional reactivity, they're just a little bit more finely tuned. And in many, yeah, it can be slightly exhausting for them and occasionally for others around them, but they're really good at picking up weak signals. Ah, great.

You know, that's, that's an asset. Then we get other things. Agreeableness, conscientiousness is something that we kind of often hope for in people in the project profession. Will you get this done? Yes, however long it takes. And can also be a curse for those who are very conscientious because they end up working late and burning out. You know, sometimes they would wish they were the person who could, you know, kind of close the laptop at 5:30 or wander off and do something else.

And so understanding yourself helps explain how you show up. And then how do you show up? Well, you know, you can ask people, but things like 360° surveys of seniors, peers, colleagues, team members, yeah, etcetera are really useful just to give people clues on you're good at this, you're not so good at that. And one of the really big ideas we've found hugely useful is the incomplete leader Gordon. We've we've just met. You seem wonderful in every way.

And then even, you might be thinking, I've, I've done a good job masking this because if even with my wonderfulness and my great experience, I really, really struggle at this. And sometimes you find a way to kind of, you know, just just kind of do enough. And then for some people, there's just some things you go, I've tried it. I was rubbish at it at school, I'm rubbish at it now.

And so the other half of this big idea, incomplete leader, complete team, it's having teams made-up of diverse personalities, skill sets and experiences. And when you kind of go, you go Gino, that's blooming genius, except for a traditional thing of people often recruiting teams in their likeness. And it's like, wow, you've got all the same strengths and all the same weaknesses.

That is not a good team. So, so sometimes leadership is know yourself, understand how you show up at work in those leader environments and how you create that team and, and cherishing the difference. Oh, now we're now we're talking. That's quite a if you're a leader for the first time. Sorry, Paul, That was really, really great words of advice

there. I'm thinking if perhaps you haven't much experience of being a leader, it's quite daunting to say I don't know everything and I'm not good at everything, but so you have to be quite brave, I think. And the other thing I've been chewing over was, as you were talking, and inclusivity is a big thing and you can, you know, the the benefits of that are appreciated at every level.

But how inclusivity, including different ways of thinking in a team means there's going to be discord or challenge. And as a leader, how do you deal with that in a positive way? Because I guess the reason many people higher in their likeness is because they get on with people and it's like a shortcut to getting stuff done. And we know that's lazy and you won't get the best outcome necessarily.

So how, how do you change? How do you frame things in a way that you think, well, this is going to be exciting or challenging because there'll be people who will think completely differently to me that have you any words of advice about creating a culture as a leader or being a role model when it comes to leading people, people with very different opinions? Can I there's two points here. I've got and pick up the first

one and one is careers. And, and there's a, there's a, a development through early stage career, which is deepening subject matter expertise. And, and we see that in projects. I, I had a few years chairing the professional standards and knowledge committee and I'm very, very proud of the APMS kind of qualifications. So project fundamentals is a brilliant go to start qualification. It shows that you understand the fundamentals. They're really important.

And then you kind of that that worked well. And I'll deepen my such a matter of expertise and maybe I can reflect that with the management qualification and then the project professional qualification. And happiness is, you know, more childhood project professionals. And what they're doing is they're deepening. And increasingly that's the awkwardness in that career. If somebody asks you a question, they expect an answer.

I like to say there's just a quite remarkable moment in a career where you become comfortable with, I don't know, and it might the next bit of that sentence might be, I don't know, I'll go and ask the expert in my team because I lead experts. Oh, right. So so you're not the expert. No, I'm the leader of experts. That's why I have a team. And particularly if it's the subject matter expertise is not just getting projects done, project management stuff, but maybe some other technical

things as well. So we have deep subject matters and it's going, what you've done is you've created this amazing group of subject matters living experts living their best life. And one of the problems organisations have, and you know, I've bumped into this first working with Rolls Royce aero engines is at the time, and it was a while ago, I'm sure things have been proved really good engineers and there's a proper engineering company could only progress in their careers

if they went into management. And so Rolls Royce risked the lost a good engineer, gained a bad manager. And so just getting that some engineers are also good managers, some engineers are also great leaders, but they're

mutually exclusive. So when you move up the to a point of leadership where it's being comfortable with the unknowing, it's you know, you get weird expressions like it's it's knitting fog and managing uncertainty and not foe trying to pretend that things are all well, we know where we're going and we know how to get there. You don't so because no one knows, because it's unknowable. So should we pretend that we do or should we acknowledge and embrace?

So I think that's that's part part of part of that. And sometimes that's why it's quite difficult and an authenticity and being comfortable with not knowing might be one of the the kind of key signs. And then your second question is around how, how do you get that breadth? And I think sometimes there is a bit of an illumination and most begin it's this. Yeah, actually, we, you know, no, no one's great at

everything. And that does run counter to some cultures in in the military for a long time, there was the notion of the well-rounded officer. And then you meet officers and, and, and they're not well-rounded and haven't met 1 yet. And so it's like really great. So, so I can be a bit more a bit more of myself. Yeah, there's minimum standards of stuff, obviously. But then what we're to do is

build that team. And maybe that's one of the things that we need to just call out in teams that are a bit, you know, they're kind of the intellectual gene pool was a bit bit shallow. Go ahead. Sorry, sorry. Yeah, a few prompted a few thoughts there. Stephen Covey, 7 Habits highly Affected people and Sir John Whitmore, Coaching for

performance. Both refer to some called the leadership curve, which is about, as it were, the psychological progression, the journey, the adventure of emotional and intelligence from being almost childhood up to leadership. And there's a key part where people get stuck. So we start off independence when we're looking around us to say I'm OK, mummy, daddy, what, what makes me good, what makes me bad. You know, we grew up this curve. And then we move to the stage of

independence. So we know that people in that testosterone fuel period from 15 to 25 or whatever, I know everything. Don't tell me what to do. I'll get home on a Friday night whenever I want, so nobody tells me what to do. I know everything. Very self assured, very assertive, at least on the surface. However often there's a lot of uncertainty and insecurity underneath that.

But nonetheless, they're in that stage of independence, the final step which mirrors the journey that was the Hero's Journey by Joseph John Campbell. Joseph Campbell It gets to the point where as leaders, as managers, we one day get to that point, a transition key transition moment into adulthood in the sense that we realise, you know what, I don't know everything I need this team, this diverse team, collective team working together, otherwise it's not going to happen.

And that's when they move into the stage of interdependence. And that's the emotionally intelligent leader who recognises interdependence. The need for others is not insecure or discomforted by the fact that, and this is the reality, folks, isn't it? Some of these people around the table know more than I do. In fact, many of them may be a master's degree in chemistry, engineering, things that I don't have, I need them. There's no way I can talk to

them as a subject matter expert. My function and the form of fit for purpose leadership is being able to draw upon all that and not feel threatened by the fact that others no more, but actually to encourage that and to get that done. Collective dynamic working. I, I would just 100% agree with you, but how as a project leader, when you're dealing with experts, can you get them to trust you that you know what you're doing and that it's OK that you don't know what they

know? Because and that can be a problem for younger women who enter a project in who work at leading projects in male dominated environments like construction, the built environment, infrastructure projects where they're perceived as a young woman. And sometimes that's taken as you, they're not given the level of respect, but you would normally give a leader because they're perceived as being although too young or they don't

know what they're talking about. And it comes down to self-confidence as well, which is still remains an issue. It was something that came up at the APM Women in Project Management conference that I attended recently. And this is a little bit like what prompts the idea that, you know, of holding people to account and stuff very often and that that need to become suddenly very assertive. 1 can

be decisive. But the assertiveness and that command and control thing, I think we're misled very often. Let me let me try and make this a bit clearer. So in the scenario you just proffered, you've got into the room and you've effectively said I'm the leader. Trust me, this is what you need to do. And depending on what you look like, your sex, your race, any number of things, your mode of communicating, people will judge

and make a decision. The reality is in project delivery, if we're doing this well, by the time you get to that point where you're making that decision, because sometimes we do have to be decisive as the project leader. Yeah, we do have to make a decision even though we're surrounded by subject matter experts who are in their own field more highly qualified than they do. But it shouldn't be based really in in a well planned environment such that that's the first time they've seen me.

And that's, you know, I'm making this decision and they don't know anything about me. In other words, what I'm fostering here is building up relationships with people so that when you get into that scenario where you've got the room full of people or not the room full of people, but you get the idea. I'm working with the team, they know me. I'm building up trust and confidence in me over time. So when it comes to that situation in the meeting where we've had all the information on

the table and I need. To make a decision, they know that it's an informed decision because they know that I'm going around and pulling this information from multiple sources and coming to an informed view and building that respect such that they would trust me. Trust is at the heart of this, isn't it?

It's building that relationship of trust and mutual respect, and I should be working on that so that by the time we get to that point they shouldn't be the same level of potential conflict and contention. So that's partly about building a trusted reputation because you might be dealing with people you haven't worked with. You might be constantly on new

teams. And so it's being conscious that you need or being aware that you need to build a reputation where you are trusted for, for, for, you know, doing a great job. Paul, is there anything you wanted to add? I think I think what what we might be kind of really pushing into and I think great, great point, Emma. It's it's the enabling people to succeed aspect of leadership. And sometimes that is the thing that senior leaders do.

You know, what are people doing at the senior team in the board is, and it might be always the hygiene factors of we've got policies about stuff like this and we will monitor them and make sure they happen happening. For example, we yeah, we have a policy on gender equality and parity across the organisation. So, you know, not just yet 50% men, 50% women, but that's reflected in all of the layers of management because sometimes we see the numbers and then we look at the senior leadership

team and it's all blokes. It's like, hang on, what's what's going on here? Something's not working. So, so it needs a policy, it needs to have measurement and performance against it. And then I think there is that it requires just that understanding and listening. And some some of this is the empathetic engagement of going what what's required to create that environment where people can succeed on their ability. And the only judgement is on your character, not no other characteristic.

And it's like, OK, and maybe this is where, again, back to psychological purposefulness. Are you are you messaging in a way that appeals to people? Yeah, I really want to come and work there. Bright young, bright young thing with options wants to come and work there. A bright young thing with options can see that that's a place to invest their career because people like them get on

in a place like this. And some of that is just, you know, I've read the words, but I look at your org chart and if it's got pictures, can I see people like me getting on? I'll go and try somewhere else. And then I think the psychological safety is also creating environments where people can call out that stuff is not working for me because, you know, listening, acting upon. And. And some of that seems like it should have been high hygiene factors.

Yeah. There should have been stuff that was resolved in the age of my grandma, who was born at a time before women had votes, you know, all the time. My mum that went into the career just after equal pay was enacted in law, you know, However, you know, as many people will know and experience, the reality of that dream hasn't quite landed. And there are some parts of the project profession where it

hasn't yet. Don't worry folks, because there are other parts where it has and at that point, talent goes to where it will flourish. Maybe, maybe there's a market solution there. One thing that's intriguing me is the age-old question A a leaders born or made because right early on in our conversation you said you're just, you're both kind of leading to the fact that you just know someone's got that leadership thing.

So there was a big phase in leadership writing that it it wasn't, you know, anyone can become a great leader if you work hard enough. But I'm wondering if is that true? Like, do you think that's there is this kind of magic thing about a person that makes a great leader or is it something that can be learnt? I think emotional intelligence is at the core of affected

project leadership. And obviously a key necessity for that is not being too egotistical and having empathy and being able to progress along that journey and as you do and develop the emotional intelligence. So that the answer I'm putting is yes, for the majority of people, it is possible to become good and effective leaders as we develop our abilities in terms of building relationships,

building trust. I think there's three or four steps in there, which is securing much mutual respect, establishing rapport on the basis of rapport comes collaboration. And if you happen to be in that position, you know, then people you're building trust as well and people will bestow and recognise you as a coached mentor equals kind of the equals kind of leader.

You're the go to person and they defer and recognise that you trust and respect them and building those relationships over time and your communications. When I'm with the team, I've got my idea about things. But hey Emma, what do you think Paul, what do you think? And being open about inviting people to contribute and not knocking people down, but encouraging people to express their views, that kind of thing. Thanks, Gordon. Oh, what do you think? I'm.

I'm 97% on maid not born. 3% is just wondering about the role of sociopaths. I know, I know. Oh yes, there's been stuff written about this, hasn't there? Yeah, they they do seem to succeed in in many organisations, but I'm not convinced they make great leaders. But I'm even happy to debate that because sociopaths are entirely self centred. And it may be that a bit like the profit motive actually. If people pursue profit, social

good can often follow. And maybe if sociopaths pursue their self-interest, maybe there's sort of, but but that's the 3%. Hang on back to the 97%. And I think some of that comes from just a clearer view on what what is leadership? What do leaders do? And then helping people find their way. And This is why I think the incomplete leader idea was so powerful, because you find a version of you work with your strengths, work on your areas of development, work around your

resistant limitations. Be careful of the shadow you cast. Dial down your overplayed strengths. And in, in a good team setting, they'll just constantly get some of that feedback, you know, or if there's less of that. And over time, you know, we've got better thinking and understanding of resilience, physical, emotional, spiritual. And, you know, it turns out that's OK to talk about in the workplace because it's, you know, it's about helping people. And then there's also skill

sets. So a bit of my works on what the sponsors do. So we've had the, we had the manager leader debate. There's the the kind of leader sponsor and a thing to also go into and it's like as we understand that role, there's technical skill sets. This is what you need to do. Here's how you can do it well. Practise with feedback often delivers results. And then I think you can also chop up leadership in so many

different ways. There's up and out bid ship, there's down and in the systems leadership, there's team leadership. If if there was 1 and maybe you didn't quite mean it this way, Gordon, but if there's one just slight kind of maybe little push back. And this comes from the experience of just standing on a touchline watching grassroots football for my for my little lad from the age of four through to now, a kind of lanky 12.

In that team of kids. You can see people who are really good at football and just, you know, they wake up, they kick balls around when they get told to stop kicking balls around. They read football magazines and watch football on telly. It's like, oh, for goodness sake, really good footballers. And also on the pitch, there are people who are showing leadership skills, not necessarily the best football players.

And it's like, you can see that at primary school and maybe we see that in other parts of the playground. And there's again, there's now some of that is that inherent empathetic EQ. And at some point it's like, but the way Brownies and Guides works, the way that other clubs and groups work is about supporting flourishing. And there's something. There you go. Do you know we can do this? I think there's a whole other subject area here that we could encroach into and

distinguishing. And it is a it's a the Pandora's box is the distinct distinguishing between charisma and leadership and charisma is that room that you walk into. And this is the story I heard. You know, somebody walked in and there are that's really and enraptured by and mesmerised by it. And then suddenly looking around and realising everybody had a look on their faces as if they were mesmerised, literally mesmerised. You know, they've been hypnotised and people have the

ability to do this. It doesn't necessarily make them good leaders. In fact, when you go into that mode of being subjected to somebody that's it's charismatic, we tend to lose a lot of our cerebral function. So can that be? Actually. If there was one piece of advice that you'd want to pass on to listeners around leadership? Bit of impossible question, I know, but what? What might that one thing be?

I did a course. With John Hopkins University on psychological emergency, psychological aid, that kind of thing, psychological first aid. And one of the things they found that the help with people after awful situations was being able to tap into a memory of somebody in your own experience. That like that example I gave at the beginning of Doctor Cecil Todd, had inspired me from the inside out and to understand

leadership. Ask yourself which of my models that I've got in my head of what good leadership look like reflects that personal experience of somebody that touched me on the inside, brought out the best in me, helped me get out the box, got me out of a dark space. Even in the darkest of days when I remember them, I have a smile.

And that on a personal level is very powerful both to inform your road to to what good looks like, as well as questioning some of those stereotypes that we get fed through the movies and stories and all the rest of it. Just challenge that a little bit and ask if that person was in the room with you and they they were acting in that kind of leadership, would you feel comfortable or uncomfortable?

So there's that thing. And then in a personal level, who in your life, as from the stories we're told today, does what does good look like? What does good leadership look like in your experience? And learn from that. Paul, what what would your piece of advice or source of wisdom be? I'll, I'll offer the, the, the, the leader is you and sort of go and, and sometimes there's a what little, little old me like. Yeah. And you know, there's there's no opportunity.

Just just start with yourself. I think we're often compelled for reasons we cannot explain, to do things that we know are not necessarily the best thing. It's kind of the it's the basis of addictive behaviour. I know this isn't good for me. I can't stop myself. For me, it's crisps, you know, it's kind of like, and I use that as a small, a small light

hearted example. For other people, it's more substantial things to the point where to use the crisps analogy, I cannot buy crisps and I won't have them in the house because I'll eat them. No, no bag has proved too big. You know, it's like, wow. And so start with leadership of self and then the really powerful idea of the incomplete leader, because sometimes we, we get to leadership of, you know, kind of some level of perfection, some level of perfection at all times and all things.

And no leaders ever were they were all incomplete. Occasionally if you were flawed, let's not go there. They weren't great at everything. And that's part it's going. So, So what am I good at? You know, I'm actually quite good at these things. Great. Are there things you can work on? You know, my, my natural kind of personality comes in useful for these things and I can work on that. And the incomplete nurse is and what is it I need to work around often with the help of others.

So start with yourself and then that's, that's really contagious. You you can then bring that into domestic family settings into work into voluntary settings, into social settings and just go. Do you know I'm not too Shelby at this. And and by doing that, they start to then become role modest for others and then it really cascades. I loved your point, Gordon, because, you know, the

expectation could be super high. So maybe have a few people in mind again, people that you've known, people that you've experienced. For me, my grandma's somebody that just think, wow, you know, she she was from really modest backgrounds and with just for grandma. But sometimes, you know, I wonder what she would have done usually helps guide us in the right direction. And one of her great kind of contributions to to me in life is just being kind. Start, OK, start with yourself.

Thank you. It just leaves me to thank both of you for joining us. Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. Spotify and YouTube users, please do also leave us your comments. This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the childhood body

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