Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for the project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm the editor of Project at OPM's Quarterly Journal. And your Host and this podcast. I'm speaking to three project professionals with a deep interest in artificial intelligence to consider what impact this technology is having right now on projects, what it might hold for the future, and what project managers should be doing to adapt to this brave new
world. I'm delighted to have with me today Professor Antonio Nieto Rodriguez, Founder of the Strategy Implementation Institute and author of the Harvard Business Review Project Management Handbook, James Garner, Global Head of Data and Intelligence at Gleed and Chair of the Project Data Analytics Task Force and Martin Paver, CEO of Consultancy Projecting Success. The Autumn 2023 issue of APM's Project Journal also covers this topic, so please do make sure you grab a copy.
Welcome everyone. I just wanted to thank you for joining me today. I'm really looking forward to our discussion on AI and its impacts on the world of projects. I think a good place to start would be for each of you to just tell us a little bit about yourself and what fuels your interest in AI, or even better, what gets you excited about it. So, Sherrie, begin with you, Antonio. Well, myself, I'm, I'm, I'm
coming more from the PMI world. I was the chairman of PMI a few years ago I launched the Brightline initiative. My my goal is always to close the gap between the senior leaders, the business, the strategies and projects and project management. So I'm a practitioner as well. I'm I'm part of a big sustainability transformation in a corporate in the pharma sector, but also an academic. I like to research. I publish.
I published several books, one of them with Harvard Business Review, which has been my my goal because that's the way to switch the people mindset around projects and project management to appreciate it. And what drives me on a I what makes me excited is something that is in my mind, it's around delivering more value. I think there's very few professions that are challenged about their success rates.
If you look any research around project management, 60 to 70% of the project fails and and you can challenge that but that's not acceptable. So we're we're wasting value money impact and I think AI is a unique opportunity to close that gap to say OK, out of 10 projects we deliver 8 successfully and we are here like a. Some some that we we can bring value fast for, for organisation. So that's for me the biggest, biggest driver on ICE, increased success rate of this profession
that we love so much. OK. Thank you and Martin. So in terms of me personally, I've been a project professional for about 30 years, so I'm a fellow of the APM and back in about 2014, fifteen I started to look into things like lessons learned. I pulled together about 20,000 lessons learned and from that I realised that we're not learning from those lessons, we're just repeating the same things time and time again.
So what I try to do is to apply advanced data analytics to that and I realised that it's the wrong journey. So we're not collecting the right evidence at the moment. So we can start to use those techniques and really start to drive it. So back in 2017 and then set up the project data analytics community that's grown to over 10,000 people and I start to run hackathons, et cetera.
So for me personally, I see this is the way of leveraging that vast experience that we've got as professionals that it's all codified in data. So back to Antonio's part about, you know, we're not doing good enough at the moment as a profession. We could do a lot better. It's for me, data is right at the heart of that. So I don't see this as a tweak. I see it as a transformation. It's a completely different way of thinking. How about you, James? Where does your interest in AI
stem from? Eastern I've been interested in from the very beginning of my my journey Even back at university I was looking at sort of digitization in the construction industry back in sort of 2000 or even before then with this overwhelming kind of needs to to understand that there must be a better way of doing things. That's really where it comes
from. Comparing ourselves to other industries and thinking, you know, the way we do these things just inherently seems so inefficient and a lot of that was because of the very nature of the industry. But the as Antonio races, we have this unique opportunity right now in that the the technology has kind of finally caught up with our aspirations in terms of what we can do.
And we we need to grasp it So we'll talk about it I'm sure later in the podcast this kind of balance between the opportunities and the risks and and we've got this very very small window of opportunity to make this a I work for the profession rather than for for other interested parties. I guess my other kind of inspiration is other people have inspired me and you know Martin was one of the people who really put me on this journey and really inspired me to to follow
this follow my passion. I I I come from a QS background. You know, there's so many people in this field who are really passionate about this that there's there's great hope for the future. We can all sort of come. Given to to make it work for the better of the profession, there's been a lot of hype around AI should really be listening to the people are saying this is the end of humanity and no one's gonna have a job or should we be feeling excited about it. Probably like to put that to you
too, Antonio first. The question of whether it's a hype or not, I don't think so. It's a reality and people like Martin has been working on this space way before many people started to even think about it. So I think it's not a hype, it's a reality. It's happening. And I think in the profession we have not embraced very quickly new disruptions. We kind of always very cautious. We we talk about change, but we're not quick at adapting to
change. And this is an opportunity where we can drive, we can embrace these changes. The fact that there will be parts of our work that are automated, it's a blessing for I think for anyone that wants to develop. More executive kind of career. If you want to stick to your spreadsheets and your dashboards and and just chasing people. Yeah, your job is at stake for sure because you are not adding very much value. I don't know. I've been working in PMO's
project management for 25 years. I can't wait to automate all the the the 50% of our work that we do and PMO it's 80%. So bring it tomorrow and and let's embrace it, right and and let's start focusing on on where we can bring more value, which is that alignment, stakeholder engagement, team kind of engagement and commitment where I think that's what in the end what Martin? Was saying we know why projects fail. I hate when people ask me what you need to do for a project to be successful.
We know that it's everybody knows that people even that don't know projects know why projects fail. So we have an opportunity to use technology and AI to get those things out of the way and focus on those important matters which I cannot solve, which is the cultural aspect, the organisational aspects, the leadership aspects. So there will be change definitely in the skills that we need to build up, but I see it as a huge opportunity, exciting
time for for our profession. Is there anything that concerns you that needs to be thought about and dealt with and planned for right now? I think there's concerns of course, but they're really far off. I think the project management profession, these are there's something bad around, yeah, we cannot influence this. I think what concerns me is that we don't take action. And when I see chaps, GDP and some other of these AI early developments, I questioned the role of the project manager.
I could see self-driving projects if we don't step up. So I think it's more the concerns is more that the profession and the can be extremely disrupted that somebody else can start doing our job because they've embraced AI. So that is the immediate. Is that how can we move fast so that we take that spot, which is the integration of product managers, agile project management, change management, which if we don't step up, somebody else will do very quickly.
And that's what worries me. The bigger picture of course, but I just don't know these fears. I'm very far off. Entirely agree. I mean, and the question about hype, I mean the Garden, the height cycle refers to where we are, this peak of inflated expectations right now, thinking it's going to, you know, change
everything. And then you go through what's called the through of disillusionment and that there will be this kind of period coming up where ohh OK, it didn't totally change the world, but that doesn't mean the hype is not there. And actually we will go on this journey towards what's called a jive. It's artificial general intelligence and some people think it's 30 years away, some people think it's 100 years away, but we will get there eventually.
So we're on the journey. Towards that reality. So it's not hyper in that sense, but sometimes I think maybe people think where the technology is right now and they get disappointed when it can't do these incredible things at this moment in time that some people predicting that there shouldn't lose faith. You know that it's only a matter of time it keeps improving the the improvement is huge.
But I agree with what Antonio says in terms of and this goes back to what we said at the introduction, You know, we have this opportunity and if we don't carve this technology for ourselves and make it work. Of ourselves and control the data, then we risk giving it away or given away control of our industry to other people and other third parties who may not have the best interests of the industry at heart.
And that's why we're, I think three of us are pushing so hard to say, look, this isn't something to be afraid of. Yes, the hype is something that is going to change your workflows. It's going to change the way you do think. But embrace it, because the other option is we start giving away control slowly but surely to third parties. Which third parties are you talking about? It effectively third party
vendors or software companies. So it it it could be small startups, it could be the big giants, you know the Googles, the Amazons, the Autodesk. In this world, you know you can see a future very clearly if we don't intervene and and protect our industry where we we slowly but surely have that kind of Netflix moment. I suppose is the best way of describing it where, you know before we know it clients are paying subscription something and not using project
professionals. OK, Thanks Martin. What are your thoughts? Love to hear what you think about all of this. So it's back to that point really about, you know, is this an an apocalypse, You know is it going to be the end of the world? And I think we've got separate out, you know, what's the impact of this on future wars and all that sort of stuff. Like that's an issue for the state. It's not something I can control as a project professional. So I bring it back to project delivery.
Is this an existential threat to our profession? And personally I think it is. If we don't respond to this, others will. And these data people start to come into our jobs and start to automate a lot of it. So it's a case of moving ourselves up the value chain, and it's not just. Artificial intelligence.
So something I like to say is if you can describe something in logic, you can probably code it. So if you can code it using Python And various other tools, then you can do that fairly simplistically and fairly cheaply. A lot of that is available today that just put it into Microsoft XLS well. So you can now code in Python as part of Excel. If it's more intuition based than what you need to do is to grow the data set so you can look at the patterns in the data so you can extract some of that
intuition. And that's when it starts to get a bit magical, right? And that's when we start to get some really cool insights coming out of it. If we layer on top of that, things like the large language models, so it's not just ChatGPT, there's larger and various other ones out there. So what we can do now we can take a model that's being, say, trained on English and then teach it to speak with a Yorkshire accent. But it's that sort of approach. So what we're doing at the
moment. So I've got a call tomorrow with Adrian Dooley who created the practise framework. So instead of having a body of knowledge or a book, it's now online. So Adrian's taking it all online, There's templates and there's various collateral on there if we can now train a model on all of that. And then train it on all of the National Audit Office reports, the GAO reports in the US etcetera, We start to get a large language model that is trained on project delivery.
So it becomes very project delivery. Nuance, we're going to have that in about two or three weeks time. So that's going to be available and it's all going to be open source. We can open source it for people. So just imagine if we push that further and further and further, if you can now start to train it on data, on schedules of risks, on compensation events, on technical queries. That's when it becomes even better. It's starting to predict where we're going to end up, right?
So it's not just about forecasting envelopes. It's now starting to say to me, what is my call to action? And people who don't understand this stuff will get replaced by the people who do understand this stuff. So if you've got a choice of two project professionals, one person who really understands this and can leverage it and can make the most out of it and get better at making decisions and somebody who doesn't, which person would you choose? Which? Which person's going to get
promoted? I think that's the issue for the profession. How do we share knowledge? How do we share this experience? How do how do we learn from the first movers if we're not one ourselves? And also, I'll be really pleased if any of you want to just talk about a couple of practical examples of how AI is being used in the world of projects today so that we can move away from the kind of theory and the hype. So, Antonio.
Yeah, I think the sharing is great, but somehow we say I to me it feels that there's a bit more strategic advantage. So why should I share something where I'm using an AI tool with my competitions, they can adapt it and do better. So yeah, I was talking earlier with the podcast in Australia and we were talking about the PPM market as well. We which we know and we collaborate with some of these
big players that have been there for. 20 years, But discussing that, you can see that they're they're struggling to adopt AI and there's one big big player which is Microsoft whose open AI and has charged BT who might just take everything away in some niche players around. But for me the the sharing of AI, there's still the issue of IP and whether they can use all the information for free or not, but that's a bigger kind of
discussion. We don't know where it's going, but for me using AI. Can be a strategic tool. It's not like we're using Excel or we're using Microsoft Project. No, no, there's much more intelligence that you can use it to to do your projects better, faster more successfully. So I don't have an answer it's just thinking in my head of can you share or should keep it bit more confidential to make it a competitive edge right. So that is in the the point I wanted to to share in terms of.
Some parts, I think in my article with Ricardo Vargas, we talk about Walmart using AI for managing their supply chains and data analytics to manage the demand and the streamlining. Another example, I think we talk about Siemens that they've implemented system to streamline manufacturing process. This is already well known general electrics applications on AI and project management in the energy sector. So there are already. Companies that are using pieces
of Asia to some extent. So I I would not replicate what is in the in the article which you published in the APM magazine. So, but yeah, I think there is more and more and I recommend people to just follow some of these newsletters around and I because it's just amazing how quickly it changes. Martin, any practical examples you want to talk about or how we can learn from each other? I personally see we've got choices to make here.
So we can either compete around this artificial intelligence or can work together and to accelerate. If we work together, we started to pool our data. We start to sort of open source some of these solutions. Now in terms of the solutions, a lot of them aren't actually intellectual property. It's more about configuration of Python libraries or it's a configuration of Microsoft tool or a low code app or something like that.
So what we've been doing, so this is for the past five years or so. So we've been running these hackathons, so the last one in Manchester City Football Stadium and we had about 230 people come along to it. So we Co create solutions to shared problems. So we're then open source and James can tell you about some of the solutions because he's been pulling them through into gleeds as well. It's now part of his product
portfolio. So those are all the scenes of ideas that people can now fork and take in a different direction. So if we do that, we're learning on the fly, we're learning from each other. We're starting to accelerate. So I'll give you an example. Instead of 100 people all working on a health and safety app, because every company wants a health and safety app, if we just develop one or two of these health and safety apps and then share them, it means we can do the other 98 things individually
as well. So we go 100 times quicker. And I think that's the difference is that we shouldn't be competing. On some of these low value sort of aspects of data-driven project delivery, which should be worth together, get us to the data volumes, get us the data quality as well. And that's one of the biggest issues at the moment. So artificial intelligence needs lots of data, needs good quality data.
We'll never get to that point unless we work together on things like the data model, the ontology about how this data all fits together and it's not flat data. You can't just look at things like cost data by itself, the cost data and the work package and the. Now is it a Greenfield or brownfield site?
All these other things, they become the features in this artificial intelligence model and then we can look at the correlation between those features and that drives the artificial intelligence engine basically. We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the project profession. When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes.
Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk, because when projects succeed, society benefits James. Any practical examples of AI that you've that have inspired you or you would like to share with listeners? Before I talk about some examples, I think Antonio picked a really important point around this. Some people think that AI or data more generally some kind of
competitive advantage. And I think what I'm trying to do is challenge that to say that actually we're not in competition with each other as consultants or or contractors or whatever we are. We're actually in competition, like I said with the big tech company. So we we got to change our thinking and innovate ourselves above that. There's enough to go around, there's enough projects to go around and if we can use AI.
As a way of improving project delivery, it will clients effectively less reason to start looking for moving, moving to vendors. The other bit before I go into some practical examples is is around the messaging and how we
get this out there. Now I think all three of us probably say that's probably the hardest bit, because you can, you could, you could have every single project professional in a room and you could tell them about this, but it would still sometimes not necessarily go over people's heads because
people are people intelligent. To understand it, I think there's a there's a fear people have different motivations for not wanting to pick up AI. Some of it is fear, some of it is ohh, it's, you know, it's not gonna affect my profession, it's not gonna affect what I'm doing. My bit is somehow unique from everything else, so it's not going to affect that. That's where I think the skills need to come in and sort of upskilling people. And Martin does a lot of that
with his various data academies. We also do training to upskill people and we've been working with the APM on the positive dramatics deals guide document. So you know some of the examples of things we've done is like training our own large language models. So for years, one of the things that we do in Leeds is published market reports about what's happening in the project world and those have been issued as
traditional reports. We've actually trained a large language model, ChatGPT basically of our market report so that clients don't have to interact and read reports, they can literally just talk to these reports.
That's a very simple example. We've been also using it to sort of track material prices and what's happening in the market, how kind of micro level almost in a daily so we can see what trends are happening, you know even within a week or so prices, steel or prices of labour in a certain region. And that all of that is just giving people the tools so they
can become more efficient. Antonio, in the article you wrote for us you you covered off some of the challenges and how to overcome them when it comes to AI and and projects. One might want to pick up on is the lack of skilled personnel. So if you're speaking to individuals right now, what advice would you give to them about adapting themselves to this new reality? Yeah, that's something.
Again, one of these topics where there's no black or white answer, I say things are moving really fast. It's more like a mindset of continuous learning and trying. I think you learn technology by trying, not by just listening. And I think this is something that maybe we don't dedicate enough time. But for me, it's about getting involved in some of the work that both James and Martin are doing, and and others and and and get connected with the
people who are in that. Breach of of this AI and and and project management but also trying. I think first of all everybody should have used already ChatGPT or or bar to see what we have. What are the risks in in projects like mine any like knowledge management you go to chat and you can ask what kind of projects that in this sector we've seen in the past and what are the key learnings you get that immediately So that curiosity to experiment with the
tools I think it's. Is more important than saying you need to develop the kind of design thinking or critical thinking which is a bit more abstract. We are not going to be developers for sure, but I think that kind of constant checking and trying and new tools and see how can make me better. How can I see that this technology will help me to get to deliver value better. I think that's where I I would put my focus. That's what I'm doing. Of course, going through AI
courses. And and learning. And I think one point. I did a survey with Ricardo about this. Area is great, but don't forget that AI is an enabler. So don't forget about if you're working on sustainability, diversity, growth that should be connected to. So don't just one thing, but see how this connects to other bigger topics that are priority in organisations that will make you even more special and
unique. So connecting AI with all these other topics, I think something that I would recommend to do as well, but the most important is try. Don't be afraid just you said turn you'll get mistakes, you'd struggle. But this is the best way to embrace new technologies and and most of the softwares you have the most uh that you can just watch and think about how do they could benefit your your projects. But I cannot give you one specific skill.
I think there's so many skills that we need to develop. Thinking more strategically about one's career, should you be thinking about the very human side of work? So when it comes to decision making, So if all the AI eventually is going to give you all the information you need and flag up the risk areas of a project or suggest ways that seems to be become better, what does that leave the project
manager needing to do? So if you're thinking five years ahead of or 10 years ahead, what is it about the project manager's role that will change from now until? Kind of short term future, what should you be cultivating or developing in within yourself to ensure that you? Still going to be necessary and needed in a five years time.
In the skills, for me it's it's what we talk about is soft skills, but in on a higher level is that alignment between different groups of priorities and projects and critical thinking of strategic thinking. These are things that a I will for sure not do very soon. So engaging on stakeholders, talking about the value of your projects, learning to speak the language of the organisation, connecting with the right
people. I think this is where we should have done that before anyway, because these are essential skills. But now AI is going to make that more obvious that if you want to have a job in this space in five years, you need to develop that really acceleration there. Because it's about also following empower, feeling the confident, feeling confident to talk to our CEO of your company. This kind of mindset we've never heard and it's the moment to step up. And I always say it's more of a
mindset. Issue then the skills and the mindset says you're in power to do these things to deliver your project benefits and this is something that is built based on confidence on on looking another examples and and trying this kind of new new approaches to to delivering projects. I think if there's something I would recommend it's the mindset. Feel empowered to drive your project. You're the owner. You should be able to say let's stop it. You should be able to go to the CEO, say I need.
Resources or this is not going to happen unless that in that. So that's something that I always push in in conferences and workshops. Martin, what are your thoughts around this? So how project professionals should be thinking about upskilling themselves or any advice you'd pass on? So basically we saw this back in 2017 and the first point was about just awareness. So that's why we set up the project data into its community and that's why we start the meet ups.
We ran monthly meet ups and then pre COVID we were going to Birmingham and we're going to Bristol and Manchester up to Aberdeen as well and start to spread the word and share these experiences as well. So we get guest speakers in. So a chat came and talked about the Tour de France and he played it back through a lens, which was brilliant, right, Really, really brilliant. So what we then start to do is
to run these hackathons. Because it gave people some practical experience and it took away some of the barriers. It's not as scary if someone sat next to you and showing you what to do and showing in two days what can be done. So we run that and then people said to us that's not enough. We need some practical experience. You know, we need to be shown how to do it. So we then started training, so we run the Project Data Analytics Academy, So that's funded through the government's
Apprenticeship training levy. So it's basically free for most organisations and that enables people to get up skills in data. Even project delivery for nothing and a byproduct of that process is each person has to do three or four projects as part of the course. So there's no exams anymore. It's all about your portfolio that that you develop. If we do that, we start to develop this collateral then.
So we start to develop these little modules of capability, these Lego bricks that we can all start to piece together. And just imagine if you had 1000 people with three or four projects seats, that's 4000 Lego pieces of capability. If we start to pull along that like won't put it on cause some of it will be commercially sensitive and et cetera. But if we could pull half of it, we will transform the industry.
So that training is available now, so finders on projectingsuccess.co.uk and look at the training page as well. So it's all in there and it's funded by government. So government is trying to help you to get these skills so you can remain. At competitive and we start to drive up UK PLC productivity. So back to one children's point, you know what will project managers do in the future.
And for me there is a phase shift that's coming, a massive phase shift as in spite of as spending loads of time, you know looking backwards through reporting, doing assurance etcetera, a load of that it's just going to be automated. That doesn't need artificial intelligence, it just need needs code and some of these sort of modules of capability that we can develop through things like Power Automate and and Power BI and that sort of stuff, right. So that's fairly easy to do, and
it's all accessible today. Well, this is 10 years away. It's all available today. So what we then start to do as project managers or project professionals, we start to say where do I need to focus my laser beam so I can deliver these projects more cost effectively and with greater delivery confidence. So if you look at HS2 at the moment, is it the politicians fault that it may get turned off from Birmingham up to Manchester?
So is that a political decision or is it a case that IT cost growth is so extreme is it's no longer investable? So is that a project delivery issue? Right. I think the jury is out on that argument. But if projects are becoming an investable once they get to a certain size, then that's a massive issue for society and we can help to solve that through
advanced data analytics. So we start to understand which parts of a project are predictable and which ones aren't and why and what we need to do to sense that and and to understand it. So the role of a project delivery professional is going to evolve at pace. So it's all about the superpowers. Of individuals. So if you can see what's in the future, you can predict where something's going to go wrong,
you will outperform your peers. And if you really, really good at it and you're going to get paid a lot of money because you can save the country and absolute fortune, you can save your employees of fortune. The problem with this is, so I've been posting a lot of things on LinkedIn at the moment and people have said we need to take everybody on this journey with us. So let's not scare the horses.
And let's not put out there that you know there's going to be various people losing their jobs and plugged into this as I see a lot of the time about all of this sort of efficiency improvement and productivity improvement through project delivery and some organisations will just cash that productivity improvement in. So it will be heads, it'll be headcount loss. It's the more visionary organisations will transfer those people and start to move
them up the value chain. So they've got these superpowers and they can deliver projects a lot more cost effectively. So for me it's not necessarily about taking everyone with us because they'll always be sceptics, It's about taking the five or 10% who's really going to start to accelerate this, this journey. We're going to pull a load of other people along with them in their wake because we'll start to develop the evidence and we'll start to demonstrate this.
That pace. Any last thoughts before we finish? We run out of time already and I could talk to you for another two hours. Yeah, I think we cover a great questions and I think nothing to what I think it's a great opportunity for the profession. Let's step up, let's take this opportunity, follow Martin James all the work that you are doing in PMG to focus on on a I and and I think the future it's very right for for us in this
profession finally. So now I'm very excited and looking forward to connecting with with everyone who's listening. I think the big point for me, it's about vision and leadership. So with project professionals, we're all busy people. We're stuck in the knife fight over the here and now we're trying to deliver a project. It's probably going pear shaped,
you know, in most cases. Ohh, that's what the start filling us. So we don't have the headspace for this, we just don't have the head space. And that's what I'm finding from speaking to organisations is this is a job for tomorrow, it's not for a job for today and I've been facing that for the past six years, so it's always a job for tomorrow. So it needs client leadership, it needs professional leadership, it needs all of us to pull together to start to drive that.
I don't think that's where we need to be. We need to be showing people the path. And showing them the way to take this forward. So some of the work we've done work with James as well and and the project data on it, it's task force. So James is the chair of the project date on it. It's task force. So it's worth reaching out to James if you're interested in some of this is the visions for 2025. So we said let's start to reimagine things like risk management, let's start to
reimagine benefits management. Could that look like in about 18 months from now? All right. If we can start to imagine it and break it down into some sort of modules of capability to get us there, it becomes deliverable and we can all do that if we unite around it. And and James will probably share with you some of the pain to try and motivate the community to line up around
those visions. And it's normally because it's getting access to those thought leaders and those visionaries and the people who's got the ambition to make this happen. And I think that is changing in places now. I think we are starting to see it in ChatGPT has brought this into the imagination, right? It's made it a lot more accessible for people. So I do sense that changing. And I think people like Adam Bonnesen and we've got Andy Murray as well from the major projects association.
Then I really started to understand this and get all over it and start as well. So I do think we'll see a major change probably this year. And James, any any last thoughts from you? Yeah, so Martin mentioned the Project Data Analytics Task Force. So Martin set that up how to how many years ago probably four or five years ago and he's passed the championship on to me. We've got our first meeting this week actually.
And you know, I I think what out of the objectives, if I could think of 1 objective that would move the goalpost most rapidly is all the institutions started to work together. And if I see that as my role as helping create this kind of overlay. So you've got you know what you guys do which is brilliant. You know these podcasts and stuff and in in the journals is brilliant. PMI is doing some of the things. Ohh ICS are doing things.
But you know if we rather than all we're doing little bits ourselves if we can bring it under one umbrella. And that's what I hope the project they genetics task force can become a kind of a way of putting all of this information like an overlay on top of it all so that people can see there's a very clear direction that the profession is, is moving in and then all the institutions and government these are doing their bit to drive towards that vision.
So I am optimistic there is that there is with all these kind of things, there's dangers and there's, there's risks and we have to control that and who's better than to do that, than project professionals, you know that's part of our part of our role. All right. Just leaves me to say thank you to everyone. Thank you for your time and your thoughts. Could talk another two hours about this, but we just can't do that, I'm afraid. But thank you so much.
It's brilliant. Thanks again to Antonio, Martin and James for joining us, and to you for listening to the APM podcast. Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. This podcast has been brought to you by APM, The Chartered Body for the project profession. For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.