Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host in this podcast. I'm very pleased to welcome Amy
Morley, AP M's new chair. Amy is the childhood project professional and is currently a Programme Management Senior Director at Acom, an industry leader in programme management services for large complex infrastructure programmes, where she's part of the programme management global business line. I'm talking to Amy about everything from what the future might hold for APM and the project profession to any career lessons she might like to share. Hi Amy.
Welcome. Hi, Emma, great to talk to you. First up, congratulations on becoming chair, but you've been in posts a little while now, haven't you? Towards the beginning of the year, yeah. What do you want to achieve during your time in post as chair and perhaps what are your priorities and plans for APM going forward? My priority ultimately is to, you know, support the APM and achieving its goals and supporting the board and the APM as a whole in order to go to do
that. But I also think that project management itself is continuing to evolve into more of a strategic enabler across industries and across projects. And I really want to continue to support that and to continue to support project management in that evolution. I also want to support the APM in strengthening our voice in policy, expanding our reach globally.
So we've talked before around the AP Ms priority to move more internationally and globally and to share a lot of our experiences and lessons in that way. And of course, most importantly, ensuring that we're equipping people and professionals with the skills that they need for the project management challenges that are coming ahead. So be digital transformation, complex stakeholders, sustainability, etcetera.
I think, you know, the APM, you know, continues to review those things and and continues to make sure that we're providing what it is that project professionals need right now. Like I'm just listening to you. There's, there's kind of stuff at every level from I guess dealing with the skills gap. So you know, there's a really strong demand for project professionals. There aren't enough and demand is only going to get stronger. So that's one surround.
Another strand is what you're talking about re skilling people or making sure they have the right mindset, I guess towards all the kind of transformation AI that we're being. Then at the very top level, it's about making the C-Suite more appreciative, I guess of project, project management function and making that more professionalised, which I guess ties in with organisations themselves becoming more project
focused. I mean, my next question really is around the future of project management. So separate SOAP, there are these much bigger trends what what you see in your. Work that has made. You flex on these issues. Yes. And I think it is exactly what you said there. So you know, I think project management you is evolving and is continuing to evolve and actually quite rapidly driven by a requirement of how projects and how organisations are
operating. And I think, you know, project management is is still shifting away from, you know, perhaps task focused or delivery focused discipline to being a much more strategic enabler of outcomes or strategic enablers of transformation. And I think there are, you know, a number of things that that the future of project management
kind of holds. So I think that, you know, individuals who are now moving into the project management space need to, you know, navigate a level of complexity perhaps that hasn't existed in the past. I think there are additional elements that need to be considered when we're undertaking project management of large projects, including, you know, innovations, sustainability, significant kind of stakeholder engagement. And I think all of those things require a different type of
skill set. So I think maybe, you know, at one point we might have talked about certainly in the project management leadership space, you know, people perhaps focus very
much on technical skills. And I think now that we're seeing quite a big shift into more of an emphasis perhaps on those leadership skills or the, or the, I hate to use the phrase, but you know, those softer skills around, you know, influencing around listening around collaboration and kind of shifting more into a trusted advisor type space rather than perhaps being completely task driven and focused on kind of
output. So, you know, I think there's a, there's an element there of needing to think about both. What does the landscape for project management look like? But what are the skill sets that we now need as a project management profession to be able to fulfil landscape? That's quite a big shift, isn't it?
Because if you started out in your career and you need to know the technical stuff you're doing with the nitty gritty of a project, perhaps you're not managing others, but you certainly need to learn how to be a good collaborator. Because the people I interview who've have been on successful projects on the perhaps ones that have failed, but not through for whatever other reasons.
But the thing that comes across as this great need for clear communication, honesty, transparency, These are quite big things to get your head around if you're just sort of early professions. So it's really good from you to but that's the sort of thing you can think about right from the
start of your career, isn't it? I think so and and that's actually one of the things for me this clarity is really important in project management around communicating the deliverable, the that you're kind of engagement. I think doing so with clarity goes a huge, you know, huge distance in terms of being able to both deliver. But then, you know, in my mind and in my world, kind of building relationships with them clients or building relationships in terms of those wider projects.
But I think that point is that you say around the early careers is really important. Because I think for me, I think project managers hold a huge kind of weight of responsibility in terms of being able to be transparent and building that trust and being honest about what we're seeing in a project environment, how things are going, how things are
progressing. And I think, you know, there are projects that are perhaps not going as well as they might have intended at the beginning for variety of reasons. And I think kind of learning really early on around that integrity and transparency and honesty around being able to understand that, understand the drivers for it and be communicating those with clarity, you know, is a big is a big factor of being successful in the project management space.
But it's easier said than done. Have you? Have you got any tips that you would pass on that actually works in real life when it comes to communication? Or have you been lucky enough to have a leader or project manager that you've admired and copied what they've done any any kind of tips like that you could? Pass on.
I've been, I've been extraordinarily fortunate in my career and working with some fantastic leaders and some fantastic people who absolutely have both demonstrated that ability to be able to communicate transparently. But then I've also offered that support when, you know, perhaps I've needed to have a difficult conversation or if I've escalated something or raised the query or needed to kind of
communicate in that way. And so yes, it's of course not just completely down to the individual. It needs to be down to everybody on the project team to set that standard and to support one another to be able to act in that way. And I think, you know, lots of the research that we're seeing now is demonstrating that collaborative leadership isn't just about being a style.
It is a genuine advantage and a, and a genuine factor in accelerating problem solving and building the kind of culture that means that where you're facing complexity or you're facing challenges, then you're more likely to be able to get over those and more likely to be able to succeed if you're working in a way that you know, the environment is
collaborative. So. I guess you obviously feel very optimistic about the future of project management, but I haven't asked you specifically what the opportunities are for the profession. I mean, that demand is there's not really more and more people in the profession, but what do you think are the opportunities? I think there are a lot of opportunities. So, you know, I think we haven't perhaps talked that much here around the digital transformation.
And it's interesting because I think a lot of the conversation that's happening, you know, certainly in project management and even more so maybe in project controls is almost thinking about digital transformation as a, as a threat. But I think it's a real opportunity. And I think that the digital transformation is going to really continue to shape how we plan, how we execute, how we can use data and analytics to monitor projects, how we can build greater efficiency and
automation into projects. And ultimately, for me, I think that's going to enhance decision making and reduce risk on projects. And if we as management professionals are focused on the outcomes of projects, then we need to leverage and get ahead of the curve in, in the AI and digital transformation space and start integrating and thinking about how we can maximise that on projects.
Rather than thinking, which I heard even in the last couple of days that, you know, AI will take over the profession. We won't have project controls professionals. I, I personally don't see it that way. You know, for me, I think that utilising those tools will enable the human element and some of the things we've talked about already around that strategic enablement of projects to perhaps have more time to do those things. To start thinking about what is the analytics and the data
telling us? What are all the decisions that we can make to act on those datas and start to drive, you know, projects or improve the outcomes of projects overall. So see that as a real opportunity and something that, you know, I'd like to see more of coming through and and kind of seeing more projects adopt some of that. It's a little bit slow right now because we're trying to figure
out exactly how to do that. Yeah, we've talked a little bit around the opportunity of, you know, shifting, you know, the leadership style and thinking about how project management, you know, the space that project management fills in a project and moving more from, you know, task oriented or back office type functions. And I think we're seeing much more, you know, C-Suite positions. I think the APM talks about having these chief project officers, but, you know, at AC suite level.
But certainly we're seeing more project controls, you know, directors and others sitting at that C-Suite. And I think, you know, there's a real opportunity there for continuing to position and show value and show how projects can continue succeed with that in and that that kind of information. You're kind of answering my next question because I was going to ask you what, what needs to change for the profession to thrive. But already it's about using AI and data in a smart way to
increase project success. And rather than seeing it as a threat, viewing it very much as a very useful, valuable tool towards efficiency and delivering projects better. Also around leadership, you were saying, but is there anything else that needs to change around the profession or maybe around governance or assurance or anything that you've that's kind
of close to your heart? I think one thing we've not touched on is around, you know, promoting and building diverse career pathways, recognising the skills shortage that there is in the project management space. I think we need to be creating and promoting different career pathways and enabling people to think about the skills that they've built in a particular area and how that they could be transferable or moved into the
project management space. And I think many, many roles and many, many skills could be transferable into the project management space if we were open in creating and promoting kind of different career pathways I'm. Always impressed by the project management profession because you can come in as an apprentice, you can come in mid career having done something completely different. You don't have to have gone to university, you can.
It's just still one of the few professions that are completely open in that way, which I find really heartening actually. And also I guess I think to promote is that people can move between sectors as well. Would you agree with that? Do you think people can transfer between different sectors as a project professional? I do, I really do. And and it's interesting. So, you know, one of the projects that I worked on, one of the great things that I saw was their apprenticeship programme.
And we had people that would have been, you know, maybe mid career that were in their mid 20s or even early 30s or older joining the apprenticeship programme and kind of relearning and re skilling to become a project manager. And that was incredible to see and a real opportunity is some of these mega projects, I guess, to be able to do that and build a career, you know, in a longer term project. So definitely that and definitely I think there's an
opportunity to move sectors. I think inevitably it depends on the role that you're going to do, because clearly different sectors require different kind of technical ability. But I think that if you are a very strong, you know, generic, all good project manager, you can apply those same skills and that same expertise in any of the sectors that that operate.
And I think as much as anything, what I would say is I think it requires leaders in those sectors to sometimes maybe step outside of their comfort zone and take a bit of a risk on hiring something that doesn't necessarily fit the must have 10 years of ex experience. Because I think you you gain a different way of thinking, you'll gain a different kind of perspective potentially and build some diversity in the team. So. Tell me a bit about your current role and the projects you're
you're. Working on. SO I, in addition to being the Chair of the APMI work for ACOM and I'm a part of their programme management global business line, which effectively provides programme management services for large complex infrastructure programmes around the world. One of the things that's been a big focus for acom is building that programme management business line and delivering, we call them delivery partner kind
of roles. So we often have clients who are setting up big infrastructure projects and they identify that they perhaps need support with specific expertise or skills or experience that they themselves in a project environment, perhaps don't want to hire full time because the project has got a particular lifespan or has particular skills that are only needed for a particular point in time.
And so Acom effectively offers a service as a delivery partner where we will work alongside a client team to bring that experience and expertise to support, you know, ultimate the delivery of the project. So yeah, you mentioned I, I worked for HS2 for around 10 years and I joined ACOM just
over a year ago. I'm currently based in Toronto in Canada. So my family and I moved here at the beginning of July and I came across as part of the programme management team to support a transport project here in the city which are developing and building a metro extension.
So I lead our deliberate partner team and we work very closely with our client here and a number of different things on the project, but ultimately to help them achieve a successful delivery of that of that metro extension. How did you end up in project management and could you give me a brief overview of your career today? Because like you say, well, the thing, the term is like a zigzag career, but. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I think that's right. And then, yeah.
And as you say, like lots of people, I didn't really necessarily start out in project management, but I was, you know, I was drawn to it probably through roles that required coordination, problem solving, stakeholder management, and probably built some foundational skills that then, as I talked about, were quite transferable into where's my career going? What is it that I wanted to kind of pursue?
And project management was a great fit for lots of the things that I've kind of done in my early career. And I think one of the things that I realised I really loved and continue to really love is bringing structure to complexity and kind of driving outcomes and those deliverables. How did you come across it? Was it someone that did you know about project management? So I started my career in largely administrative roles. I didn't go to university At
classic time. When you go to university, I did do a degree later, but I didn't go to university. I started working in administrative roles and I lived in Dorset, which not to take away from Dorset, which is a wonderful place when you're an adult and have children, but didn't necessarily offer the career aspirations that I had in mind. And so I decided to go travelling. So instead of going to university when I was 19, I packed up my bags.
I went to New Zealand for a year and when I came back I got a job up working in agricultural college, which again was wonderful, really fantastic. But I wanted to do something else. So I I moved to London and took a role at the BBC as a personal assistant effectively. And I worked in a number of different roles at the BBC, including as PA to what was then the head of BBC News, which was a really cool job, but absolutely loved it.
But I was, I was always thinking I wanted to do something more than that, those kind of administrative roles, and was thinking where could I kind of gain those skills or kind of
branch out? And I took a job, applied for and was successful in getting a job working for the Cabinet Office, which was a really interesting time in politics because we were in the coalition government between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. And they were championing a policy at that time around devolving powers from central
government to local authorities. And I joined the team initially in an administrative role and they had just come out of an audit that told the team that they needed to do project management. And the really fantastic, inspirational woman that ran the team was like, right, Amy, you're the project manager go. And I was like, oh, OK. And I, I spent a huge amount of my personal time doing APM courses and reading a lot about project management in, in the
evenings. And I spoke to lots of friends and colleagues who worked at various consultancies and read about techs and project plans and all the things that you need to do. And, and effectively schooled myself through support of the team and through training to do this project management role. And was effectively a team of one that put in place a number of different project management kind of products and materials and ran this project for a number of years in the Cabinet Office.
And for me, you know, there's been a number of different formative times in my career, but that was a huge. Kind of pivot moment, I guess for making that transition into into project management and really kind of pushing myself to learn and and kind of build the skills I guess. And very much enabled by a fantastic and supportive leader of that team who who gave me a lot of the support and guidance that I needed to be able to do that I wanted.
To ask you about how professions changed over time since you've worked in IT, but specifically it just was, I was just thinking then as you were talking about, you know, HS2 and I think of transport. And. Construction as being very male dominated sectors and I wonder if it's made any difference to you that you've that you're a woman. Is that something that you've been kind of conscious of in terms of career at work?
Is it been a negative? A positive hasn't made a blind bit of difference and just wondered what your thoughts are, if you're happy to share. You know about your experience but also as a woman in a senior role, you can see what still needs to change. But how do we make that change happen? You absolutely not just in transport. I think in big infrastructure projects in all sectors, it still continues to be, you know,
predominantly male dominated. I think it is changing and I think it is changing for the better. But for sure I think that there are still kind of fewer women in leadership positions. And although it's changing on projects that I've worked at, even if the percentages were quite high, by the time you reached kind of SLT exec and certainly board level, those percentages had dwindled
somewhat. So, yeah, there is undoubtedly more to do. I think, you know, for me personally, I'm not sure that it's held me back. I think I have always perhaps approached, you know, working life as as an equal. I don't think I should be treated any differently as a woman. I don't think I should be treated worse or better and just contribute. And as long as I'm being judged on my output and the value that I'm bringing and the things that I'm doing, then, you know, we carry on.
I think that said, I'm sure there's an element and I'm sure there's an element, you know, probably I've needed to work in some respects harder or I feel like I've needed to maybe work harder, but that might be a personal thing to maybe achieve the same things. But it is a real juggle with family and a big job. I have a 2 year old and a four year old. Our family, perhaps we have slightly reverse roles. So my husband stopped working
when we had our now 4 year old. And he does a wonderful job in juggling all the things that need to be juggled with, with the kids, which means that I can, you know, continue to meet all the commitments that I need to meet from a kind of work perspective. But the juggle is still nevertheless there. And I'm reminded, oh gosh, the woman's name escapes me, but she's the, she's a very famous producer of Bridgeton and Grey's Anatomy and doing a big speech,
you know, how do you do it all? And, and she kind of said, well, you don't, you don't do it all. And if you're, if you're succeeding at work, then you're probably not fulfilling all the things that you need to do at home. And if you're succeeding at home and you're probably not doing all the things that you need to do at work. And life's a kind of constant juggle of needing to kind of fit what needs to be done on any which day or week or month.
And, you know, reality of that. I think in in existing, interestingly, I talk about this sometimes in that, you know, it's still quite unusual that my husband is a, you know, stay at home dad or whatever the right terminology is. And I think it's been very, very interesting watching and seeing his experience of being a stay at home dad and that society is not that set up for stay at home's dad.
So, you know, going to swimming lessons and they're not being male changing rooms because both of them are being used by mums because it's predominantly women that go or, you know, to different groups and nobody's speaking or engaging. Like there's lots of elements to it. And I think women as well as women absolutely genuinely looking for equality in the workplace, I think there is a lot that we also can do as women to enable some of those things to change, which help us in doing that too.
You know, and thinking more openly around how we're sharing those responsibilities, how we're continuing to kind of normalise those things in the way in which we're doing them. Because I think without that it's going to be very hard to try and meet meet those equalities. OK, thank you. What career lessons have you learnt so far and what advice would you pass on to project professionals? I think.
One big lesson that you again, a fantastic leader that I worked with shared with me early on and it still stays with me now. And I tell lots of people the same thing, which is that you have time. And I think that often early careers people and even mid career people perhaps are kind of rushing to the I need to do my two years and then rush to the next thing. And I need to do my two years and then rush to the next thing. And I need to do my two years
and then rush to the next thing. And I, and I think you, one of the big things for me was just the, you have time to experience and maybe do that zigzag that we talked about and perhaps has been a little bit of a feature of my career, which is that it
doesn't need to be linear. You've got time to maybe do a slightly different role in a zigzag, experience what that has to offer and then zigzag back and continue on that trajectory because what you'll learn from doing that will be, you know, fundamental or or kind of significant to the way that you move forward. So I definitely think that's factor. The other thing I'll say is that
build strong relationships. Everything in the way in which I try and do things in the way in which I think projects, you know, operate successfully is on the basis of strong relationships and building that, you know, trust, building a network frankly as well. It's a really small world, so you have everything is based on building good relationships, maintaining good relationships, and you move around different projects and you come across a lot of the same people.
And I think there's been a big factor for me I think is really investing in people and really investing in those relationships in terms of advice. So apart from the things that I've said, I think I guess a big part is then focusing on outcomes, not just outputs. So yeah, you can do a great task, but what is it ultimately contributing to? What are you trying to drive for in delivering that particular task? And I guess the the last thing will be, you know, embrace change.
Change is the only thing that remains constant in a project management profession. And I think if it's it's, it's difficult for people to continually manage change. We hear that a lot. But actually in projects, the people who are the most successful of those who can bend and adapt and shift and move with the change, accepting that change is not something to be frightened of in a project. It is just what happens in projects.
You get something coming in field, it changes the requirements, the stakeholder engagement changes the, you know, the goal posters change, the dates move, whatever it might be. The only thing that is constant is change and, and kind of getting more comfortable with that and building the skills to adapt to that. I think is a, is a is a key thing. Is that something that comes naturally to you? Have you always sight change or or has it been hard to?
I guess it's like accepting that you don't have control over everything, which can be hard if you love organisation and putting structure and processes in place. I can see that, but I think the trick is pivoting quickly enough to build the structure around the organisation, around the new world. I think recognising that at the beginning it won't ever be the same as you go through, but it doesn't for me anyway, I don't think it means that you've you
lose some of that structure. I think it's more about how quickly you can pivot, read the situation, understand what the kind of changing brief is and then rebuild that kind of structure and process and logical way through to then get to the new outcome or the new goal or the new kind of targets ahead of you. So for me I think I can do both but. Yeah, and it's part of being a leader like that and being able to pivot and change mean that you have to be a strong decision maker.
So I've interviewed people in the past about how they make decisions and somebody who impressed me, nice was like, you just got to make a decision. And if you recognise quickly it's a wrong decision, you can then move. It's OK. Like you can't do that too many times. You've still got to seem competent and authoritative, but it's better. What's yours take on decision making? I, I absolutely would agree with the person you're talking to. I sort of use this phrase sort of fail fast.
So, you know, make the decision, fail fast, learn from it, and then kind of move forward. I definitely think there's an element of that. Interestingly, yes, make the decisions quickly, but I also think that, you know, the the hardest thing about working in a changing environment is bringing everybody with you as a leader on that change.
And so then perhaps not just about the decision making, but that clarity point we talked around earlier, which is around, you know, clarity and communication, clarity and kind of or continuously communicating with the team and helping them understand the change, helping them understand the new direction and the way that, you know, we can move forward. I think that probably for me, from a leadership perspective,
is one of the hardest things. I'm conscious of time, so just to finish up, I just wanted to ask you whether there were any leadership lessons that you'd want to pass on to listeners that they could put into practise? Probably perhaps people who are early on in their career or mid career who think they're aspiring to get to sort of, you know, higher up the project management tree. Is there anything you'd like to pass on that's worked well for
you or you've admired in others? You particularly for those people who are perhaps early careers, you know, surround yourself with people that you can learn from. And I think, you know, you don't have to copy everything that you see in other people, but being able to think about how you're picking out things that people are doing really well or even maybe not so well that you want to avoid. I think it's for me, I think it was a was a big thing.
I think we touched on, you know, building strong relationships. I think that's everything. And I think building your ability to build strong relationships is, is a kind of key skill and a key ability in project management. And I guess then the last thing would be, you know, never underestimate the power of clarity, whether it's in communication, whether it's in your planning, whether it's in
your decision making. I think always trying to come back to being really clear and transparent, I think is a is a key, yeah, key factor for me. How do you learn to become clearer? Do you do you get, is that the sort of thing where you ask your colleagues who really brave and so like, do you have a 360 appraisal and how, how can I be more clear in communicating? Because that's quite tough, isn't it? I think it is tough, but I think that I think it is a skill that can be learned.
And I think it's just, it's both in the way in which you communicate, but the way in which you write. I always remember somebody saying to me, tell me what I need to know, not what you know. And I guess there's something in my mind where I'm thinking, OK, well how do I break down into like 3 bullet points, the message that I need to get across or the decision that I'm looking for from somebody else? That means that we can get to that decision most effectively.
And I think that's taken practise and experience and crafting to learn how to write in a particular way or how to present something in a particular way. I don't think it's something that you can just do. I think it's, you know, repeatedly presenting to different audiences or repeatedly kind of writing papers and then working out. Well, that didn't quite go as I intended. And, you know, or I've presented something that I thought was really clear.
And then you get 50 questions about it and you think, well, that wasn't clear, was it? Because I've had to now explain the slide for the last 15 minutes. And so then when you go around doing it next time, think, OK, well, what would be a better way of laying that out? And definitely asking colleagues. I don't think it's something you can do on your own.
I, I definitely ask other people and say I'm trying to do X or Y, you know, have you got some great examples of where you might have done that in a different project? So within our network, we can do that a lot or so. Yeah. On on within your own team, then ask people for feedback. But equally, you know, if if you read the room and you go and do something back to that fail fast. OK, well that didn't work. Let's go back and think about how we could could do that
better for next time. OK, brilliant. That's bringing away to under our podcast. It just leaves me to say thank you so much for your time. It's been brilliant speaking to you learned a lot. I really. Appreciate it's been a real privilege to be part of it. Thank you so much for inviting me. Thanks again, Tammy, for joining us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.
We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. Spotify users can also send us feedback directly within the Spotify app. This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession. For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.