Welcome to the APM Podcast, brought to you by The Chartered Body for the Project profession. This episode is part of our series of Senior Leader interviews hosted by APM Chief Executive Professor Adam Bodison. This time Adam is speaking to Chris Baldy, Army Portfolio Director at the UK Ministry of Defence. Chris shares his journey through the ranks of the civil service, including his rise from admin assistant to portfolio director and how he, in his own words, stumbled into project
management. Projects and programmes, Chris says, are central to tackling the main challenges facing the army, including the modernisation of vital equipment. None of that is possible without a pipeline of talented project professionals entering the Ministry of Defence. And Chris tells Adam about the department's approach to growing and developing its project talent base, while reminding us that you don't have to be in uniform to deliver projects in the Army.
Good afternoon, Chris, and welcome to the APM Podcast. It's a real pleasure to have you here today, hot off the heels of my recent visit to Army HQ. So welcome. Thank you, Adam. To start with, I wondered if you might tell us a little bit about your career journey, Chris, and how you came to be Head of Portfolio Management for the Army within the Ministry of Defence. Yeah, of course. So portfolio management is a is a function is is part of my role.
I've got a part of my role that's also in the head of professional space for the wider P3M. So it's a it's a dual role that tracks along P3M. So I'm a career civil servant. I joined the civil service as a as an admin assistant and I guess as you hear quite a lot of people talk around kind of stumbled into project management
and and never looked back. So took the opportunity that was handed to me, probably more than more years than I'd like to admit, a go to do some of the kind of entry level training courses into into the function and then using that training. Into a bit more specialist roles within project delivery.
So I've been a risk manager and I've been a a scheduler working across a whole load of different diverse projects which which we often see in in Defence. And then when portfolio management became a bit more into focus in the last kind of 5-6 years, I took the opportunity to set up the infrastructure organisations portfolio, which then took me into having done that into the army space.
So just to be clear, sometimes on these podcasts I've heard about people who are accidental project professionals. You know, they just woke up one day and realised the jobs they were doing was a project role. It was that the case with you then or or was it quite a deliberate move from that kind of admin starting point through into projects? I'm not sure. I quite woke up realised I was a
project professional. I think as I kind of went through my my first role that was aligned to kind of the infrastructure world, I then quite quickly got into a role that was more associated to projects and programmes and was lucky enough to be working for someone. That then introduced it as you realise what this is, this is about. Project management. Why don't you go and do some of this training? Yeah, no, it's it's on. Sounds brilliant.
And of course we hear a lot about projects and programmes, but I I suppose there's, there's probably a lot of misconceptions out there about what kinds of projects and programmes are taking place in the army and within your portfolio. I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about that. In terms of what the Army are doing in the portfolio I cover, hopefully it won't be a surprise to hear that we cover a whole load of things from those heavy vehicles.
So in layman's terms, tanks, some of the lighter, more mobile vehicles, some are Range Rover or a quad bike all the way up to helicopters, which again is something that some people kind of find odd. Why the Army buying helicopters? There's certain variants that are that are bought through the Army system, which is the Chinooks and you're Apaches. There's also firing systems, so things like ground to air defence, as well as all of the communication bits that link all
those things together. And then also there's the the true integrators. So if a Army unit were to deploy, they need to make sure they've got power and water. All of those sorts of things. So effectively if if you can think of anything that the army might need to deploy to afford forward based operation, it's bought by the portfolio, is bought in the portfolio. And what would you say the main challenges are then facing the army?
And what's the role, I suppose, of projects and programmes in solving some of those issues? The short answer to to that is that projects and programmes sit at the centre of solving problems at the army currently face and that kind of challenge sits around the army's equipment which I described previously has been under invested in in in for many years with a lot of it going out of service either in the next kind of 2-3 years or
slightly longer term. So project and programmes at the centre of the army's modernisation agenda and this is around replacement of of some of that equipment in terms of modernising, so buying a lot of the same stuff but just newer, but also buying new vehicles so. The recognised infantry programme which is buying the box of vehicle which is one of the large vehicles, which is which is wheeled rather than tracks, so kind of at the very centre.
Of of solving that problem. And another problem we have, which isn't unusual across a lot of industries, is around finding project delivery professionals and recruiting them. I've been in the project profession 2 years now. Myself and everywhere I go, everybody's talking about we've got to learn lessons from previous projects and then apply
them to projects going forward. What I'm things I've been trying to do is to drill down into that a bit more, in a bit more detail and get a sense of, well, what are those key lessons. So I suppose what I'm interested to ask you about is what are the key lessons in relation to project leadership that you've learned through your role leading a portfolio at the MOD? So learning of lessons and cycling those back through is is
a is a problem. We often have a mentality if you finish something you move on to the next thing without learning and feeding that back in. I think one of the things that I've learned through doing that project leadership and then going into portfolio management is around making sure we take time at the start of a project to really get the foundation
set. Because not only does that improve your chances of delivering the the project or the programme successfully, you've got a much better dock into the portfolio. Could I just ask just in practical terms, how, how, how you do it? Because I guess I'm thinking you've got lessons learned, uh, kind of leadership level. You've got lessons learned on individual projects and programmes that are going on right across the army and and probably more broadly across the
defence. That's a lot of lessons. I mean, how do you, just, in practical terms, gather all of that intelligence together and make sure the right things are pulled out for the right kind of future projects? Use of technology is is really important and whether that be on a kind of really simple repository type system where you kind of record what's the lesson and what type of of programme because what we have through our.
Assurance processes is when we get a new programme dropped in from the strategic centre, there's a a really quick kind of Chequers, you know what we're doing here. Is this one of the? Helicopters. Is it? Is it a heavy, Is it a light vehicle? And being able to then get after those lessons that have been learned through previous projects of the same and putting that through a gated review to make sure there's a check. Have you learned the lessons
from XY&Z? And just while talking about kind of great project leaders, obviously I've I've met you a few times, I've met some of your team, obviously some really talented project leaders there. So you you must know, therefore, what the characteristics and traits are of a great project leader. What what? What? What would you say those are? So if I kind of stick to the rule of three, I think the
incredible. So I think there's definitely something around there's a leader being credible to be able to talk around your experiences and then also being able to lean in and support when when needed. Transparency is super important. Have been really open and honest around successes, but also the challenges and not being afraid to kind of flag when there's a problem. And I think there's also third one being around being adaptable. So being able to get the best out of people when there's
pressure or things go wrong. So I think the other thing that I find certainly in the defence context and even more so in a in a context which is split between military and civilian, there needs to be an adaptable approach to how you lead people, because there's lots of different people, lots of different kind of drivers, certainly in the defence
context. And you've raised a really important point there, Chris, which I wonder whether some of our listeners might not be aware of around the military and civilian mix, if you like, within the project profession, within the Army, because it's people might think, well it's only military project professionals, but you've got both. Haven't you did want to say a bit more about that and how that works?
So we've got a a split of military and civilian in a workforce of around 650 and there's about 60% civilian, 40% military. And when I say military is Army Navy and the Royal Air Force, although predominantly in the Army space. We do have some Royal Navy and Royal Air Force colleagues in some of our aviation programmes that I described earlier. So that comes with a really interesting challenge around, as you described earlier, the accidental project delivery professional.
And we find that our military colleagues often get posted into project delivery roles and they don't realise that they're in a project delivery professional. Context or environment until they turn up on day one. What what's your assessment of the maturity and professionalisation of the project delivery community across the Army, and and how would you say that's aligned to the MOD more broadly?
It's one of those things that it's good, it's getting better, it's in progress but there's still plenty to do. We often hear the kind of the bad news stories and defence procurement but I think our our maturity in in the army and and in fact through defence is is pretty good through our kind of central work, the project delivery functions got a pretty
strong strategy. It's currently being refreshed just because they do it in four yearly chunks rather than every year and that links quite strongly into the the central government's vision for accreditation. So it's a really exciting time to be in the in the profession, in in defence and and broader government. We talked earlier on about recruitment is a real challenge.
We know that. I can't remember the exact statistic now, but it's it's something like we're gonna need 88,000,000 project professionals globally by 20-30. I mean, I mean, we're clearly nowhere near that. So it's a challenge for everybody.
But I'm interested to know what the MOD, and maybe more specifically the Army, are doing to make sure there's that real healthy pipeline of talented project professionals coming into the Army. So from a defence perspective, we've got the project delivery fast stream, we've got apprenticeship groups in terms of how you come into the department and also options for when you're in the department and you can kind of join it. So defences, I'm doing a lot of
work in terms of what we're doing in in the army space, we're trying to up our brand. So one of the things that I've pushed really, really hard since being imposed is how do we get out and you know publicise the the army of delivering some really purposeful programmes that can make a real impact. And some of that is around engagement with the APM, go into the conference in in Birmingham planning to go to to future
conferences. Outreach to universities, but also getting the fundamentals right around how do we advertise our roles, How do we make sure that it's understandable. So a point you made earlier around and there'll be a lot of people out there that think that people in uniform deliver our programmes, it's absolutely not the case.
So how do we make sure that we advertise in a way that kind of draws people in and they understand kind of what the offer is and being really clear around what that training offer is? Because I think one of the things that defence do, and this isn't just about the army, is we invest in people and so we'll invest in people's training. So being really clear around what that. That routine is and then linking it to the the IPA's functional
strategy around accreditation. So it's it's really about making sure that we've got the professional identity within the project delivery profession and there's a really clear offer. And I think the other thing that's really important is, as you say, there's a big demand for project delivery professionals and there will be people out there that have got some training, got some experience in project delivery.
And there'll also be some people out there that don't have that project, every training or experience, but we'll have an awful lot of transferable skills and have an aptitude for learning. I think it's really important that we're tapping into those people. To bring them into the profession and help them understand how they can develop and kind of move forward into the profession into more senior roles. Yeah. So I think this is a really clear message from you there, isn't it?
So it's almost like actually at any career stage, whether you are starting out and you need that investor someone to invest in you in the training side or whether you are more advanced in your career, maybe you're looking to switch sectors or switch professions. There's multiple entry points here, isn't it? So this is going to be a kind of a pretty broad spectrum of people that can enter the profession here. Absolutely.
Yeah absolutely we've we've got again I I can probably talk around kind of wider defence but certainly in the army roles that are kind of entry come and learn from the kind of day one week 1 all the way up to come and be a senior responsible owner. At Association for Project Management, we know your most important project is your career. But as a project manager, it's not always easy to make Project Me happen. That's where our membership can
help. We offer exclusive training, qualifications and learning resources to keep your development on track. Join our 35,000 members and become part of the only chartered membership body for the project profession. Open up yourfuture@apm.org.uk.
So Chris, I know that you've recently been going through the process to achieve Chartered Project professional status your yourself and I I think the results are have have come out very recently and and I understand you were successful and you've joined our Stella list of Chartered Project Professional. So many many congratulations.
Thank you. One of the things I wanted to ask because you there will be other people in your organisation who are either going through that process to become chartered already or thinking about, you know, is this something that they should do? Have you got any advice or somebody who's fresh out of that process about any learnings that you've got from going through that or things that you wish you'd done differently maybe as you were preparing for that process?
Yeah, so I followed route one, which I think is probably the middle of the road in terms of going through the process. So I had to do a professional practise interview and I didn't have to do the technical stuff because I had a pre-existing qualification. But I think it stands in terms of the preparation for that. There's a network of people that are going through at defence level.
So using those people has been really important and having gone through it slightly ahead of others, I think my advice has been don't over prepare for the interview part of of the process. It's one of those things that the knowledge is in there you've just got to get it out and coherent way and to over preparing is is is not. A good way of going because it's it's just questions around the experience that you've you've got already.
So it's a challenging process, should be challenging, but also, you know, I think as I can say now, really rewarding when you get through the other side. I wonder if you might just talk a little bit about the overall approach to training and development for project professionals and and how that links in with with APMS Chartered Project Professional
status. Yeah. So I think this is an area where defence are really strong and I think in terms of how we link into the IPA's accreditation system, which the higher level of credit accreditation needs the chartership standard to be to be part of that. So we are certainly starting to push from a defence perspective. There's been two cohorts of of about 30 senior leaders just gone through a pilot process across the fence that were supported through the charter journey.
I'm now starting to think about how we do that for the Army again a senior cohort within the Army to push through that the the Chartered standard. Because as it links to the defence and then onward into wider government process and thinking we're starting to push more people through the chartered route. And I think in terms of kind of wider training, I think it's not just about going on training
courses. There's also the the Seventy 2010. So experience mentoring and kind of formal training and making sure that breakdown is really clear. Because we find a lot of people that kind of go on a course and come back and say I'm now an expert in risk management because I've done the risk management course. What they mean is they've done the risk management course. They need to learn and and get the experience of being a risk manager.
So in terms of chartership then that's all to do with how it links him with the IPA, the infrastructure and project authorities expectations and and actually that's something that's happening cross government. So. So getting that chartership is is also a passport to other public sector roles and private sector roles of course, and vice versa those who've already got chartership elsewhere.
That could be really attractive in terms of helping somebody to come and join your team and add value at at the right level. Absolutely. So I think I think it's the first time that we've now got a really clear understanding of how we can read across as you say not just other government departments but also into kind of the wider sectors that support us and people coming in. So.
So I think the the chartered standard is the thing that we're going to start to ask people to kind of demonstrate or be willing to work towards because that's the that's the common thread through all of the things that would be as part of a job. So if you're outside of of government and someone said be accredited to level acts, they won't understand that if we ask someone to be at the chartered standard level and we're willing
to work towards. That's really understandable, understandable across the across the profession. One of my own insights into into the kind of maturity of the project profession more broadly, I suppose, is how people identify with the professional, with the role they do. So if I talk to people in very well established professions, I I don't know. Um. A chartered engineer, for example. And I. And I say to them, you know what? What do you know? What do you do? What's your role?
They will say I'm an engineer and I work for the British Army, for example. But sometimes when they're project professionals, they identify more with the organisation before they do with their profession. So you know, they'll say I'm a project manager and I work for, you know, the National Health Service or you see what I mean?
I think it's quite interesting. It's it's an interesting indicator I suppose, of the maturity of the sector and for me I'll be really excited the day when you ask somebody what they do and they say I'm a chartered project professional and I work for the British Army, for example, that would be really exciting. Yeah. No, it's interesting. It's one of the conversations that we've had in the head of profession space around, you know, similar to what you just said, how do you introduce
yourself at a cocktail party? So someone says, he said what do you do? We're trying to push to say we're project delivery professionals. It just it happens we work in the Army Navy, so it's trying to push that kind of identity and that's part of our functional strategy. So part of that is how do we make sure that people kind of understand us against as you said? Some other the other professions
within defence. If people were to be asked, it would be around the finance profession, the commercial profession really established long term professions, projects, really professional, still in its infancy.
Sometimes I I I think of think of that as a real challenge for us. But I think as with all of these challenges there are also opportunities because because we don't have a very well worn path it means we can take the path where it where it needs to go where it's actually trying to change some of these other professions who are very well established. That's like trying to say and a super tanker you know it'll take a long long time.
So I'm I'm always interested to watch you know over the next 10 or 20 years um how the different professions will have matured and evolved over over that time. What about your role and and portfolio management within the MO D more broadly, Do you think that's going to go through a a big evolution over the next 10 years? Is there going to be a lot of change? What do you think? So I think there will be, I think portfolio management being defence has been through a journey already.
I see portfolio management continue to be an integral part of the kind of defence procurement because it provides that kind of P3M conscience to senior leaders. So if you make one decision, how does that impact another? So I think that's the really kind of important thing that portfolio manager management does, especially in a in an environment where the army will be making some decisions as will the Navy, the RAF and all the others.
So they're all interlinked. So portfolio management becomes a really key role in that kind of bringing it to a defence level and being consistent And I think you know really driving decisions but also efficiencies in terms of how do we use some of the things that kind of sit at that portfolio level, say category management is one of the things. So how do we make sure that we're doing the right things properly, which I guess is a bit of a strap line from the kind of
portfolio management doctrine? We've managed to get through a whole conversation, Chris, and we haven't talked at all about artificial intelligence and digitalization and you know the the conversations that are happening in every organisation all around the country right now. What what's your take on on on on all things digital and AI opportunity or threat? What's your assessment? So I think as with any any of these sorts of things there's a
huge opportunity. But what comes with that is a a a threat as we always kind of see. I think you you kind of you see and and hear and you know pick up on conversations where you know people see a I as as a threat. And I think I've I've read lots of things recently where it talks about AI won't replace people. People use an AI will be the ones that replace the people that that don't.
So I think there's a huge opportunity especially in an organisation that has a huge amount of data as defence do and that's that's varied in its quality and I think that's another threat in terms of you know how good is the quality of the data that we're using. But overall I think it's a it's
a huge opportunity. I've seen some of the work that's been going on in in the central centre of of the defence department and it's it's huge it, it will allow us to again make those decisions at a portfolio level with a lot more confidence I think. On balance, I think you signed in quite optimistic about AI about the opportunities. Obviously you've identified some of the threats there as well. Do you think we should all be opportunistic as well and and
positive? I think it was anything as big as this I think you need, you definitely need those kind of people that are more cautious I guess in in any kind of change perhaps my brains going back to some of the things that I've learned through my career, you need those people that say Are you sure, will it work, are we going down the right path.
But I think it's also one of those things with the way that the world is going in terms of technology, it feels like something that's going to happen. And I guess my outlook on things are embrace it because I think it's inevitable, but make sure that whilst kind of embracing it that I can continue to kind of challenge to make sure that it is, is the right way to go. We've got people who've been listening to this who are right at the beginning of their
career. Maybe they're already in the project profession and they're just they they don't know what things they should be doing to get on and really get on in their career. Maybe they're thinking about entering the project management profession and aren't quite sure where's a good place to start. What what advice would you give to them based on your obviously excellent career journey that's got you into this brilliant role. So again I think kind of rule of three.
I think the first one would be be curious and challenge. So that's about challenging the people around you and yourself and kind of ask those questions that you perhaps think other people aren't or or are not The right questions I think are really really important. One is don't be afraid of failure. I think a lot of people see failure as a a negative and this might be an odd thing to to say
out loud. But I think in my experience I think the things that I've learnt and the best lessons that I've learned have been through things haven't gone well. And I think the third thing which I see a lot through, I guess my my day job, but also the head of professional or is make sure you get the right level of balance between going on training courses and getting experience.
And I think that's a really important thing to to kind of take away is linking back to the second point experiences, the thing that tends to teach you the most. Chris, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for your time. I hope people have got a lot from listening to that.
And I hope those people who have thought about but maybe not acted on, but potential project career within the Army or indeed the mod more broadly will pick up the mantle now and and and start looking at the the job sites and thinking about coming to join what what's on like some really exciting projects that are going on that. So, Chris, thank you very much. Thank you, Adam. Brilliant conversation. Thank you for joining us for this episode of the APM Podcast.
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