Hello and welcome to the APM podcast brought to you by the childhood body for the project profession. The focus of today's episode is the people side of change including the challenges associated with the neighboring teams to thrive and bring about meaningful change through projects to understand more about change management. A p.m. senior business development manager, Gavin Spencer sat down with two Project professionals from the
life sciences sector side. Hoskinson is a senior it program manager at Thermo. Fisher Scientific, and Joe Stanford is head of corporate portfolio office at health education, England, listen on to hear them chat with Gavin, about bringing people on a change Journey. The importance of starting with y and the role of Neuroscience and project success Thanks for taking the time out today to speak with us today. Joe and Sal.
Thank you. So we're talking change management today and project management and the both areas that I know are very close to your heart. So before we get into the main part of the session, how about we take just about 2 minutes, each just to introduce yourselves, if that's okay and SOB. Can we can we jump over to first? Thank you, Gavin. So my name is our past concern and currently work at Thermo Scientific within the corporate division, leading the it corporate illegal, and real
estate portfolio. Crave started 17 years ago within testing, as part of a sandwich year, whilst I was studying at Microsoft and it sort of took off from there, really realizing that I was kind of eventually in the wrong kind of profession. As I was more, kind of strategic than detailed and moved into project management 15 years ago.
Go, I am qualified in prints to add car and actually there was a little story around why I went into the following qualifications and that's organizational, ta for which I studied part-time for four years and given that I am in project management and have been I think change has been an integral part and underlying Foundation to any of the projects that have been delivered which will move onto shortly. Fantastic. You and Joe if we can go as you please, hello? I'm Joe Stanford.
And I am head of the corporate portfolio office at health education England, which is the education commissioning arm of the NHS. I also have been leading a program to develop the project and change profession in healthcare. And my background, I started off actually in the arcs. My first career was as a lighting designer of the theater.
I only realize now quite how much that influence the way in which I work with my team and how much of a collaborative production team kind of dynamic, I've created and sort of encouraged others to create because it is a very collaborative and future Focus way of working, but I've worked in the private sector. I've worked in central government and the last nine years, I've been working in the NHS and I'm a chartered project, professional.
With the IPM. And something I think is really great for people to be able to work towards. But I'm also a fellow of the APM and development of the profession is a real driving passion for me and in terms of change management. I think this is a whole area that needs a lot more attention. It's really about how do we take people on the Journey of change and how do we engage people? What are the ways we go about it? And this is an area that I think could do with a huge amount of
investment in thinking. Development and collaboration. Fantastic. Thank you both and just to add a bit of a side note. So this podcast is a part of a series of activity, that APM is running really to raise the awareness of project management within the life science, pharmaceutical and Healthcare sectors. So we're really excited about the campaign and our Direction. It's going to traction. It's starting to gain. So really excited about this, this session.
And let's, let's really start off. Jump in with what your definition is when we talk about change management. So Joe should we should we go to first and then stop? Yeah, that's great. So so for me I mean there are definitions around change management and I think it's about what we do about it. Not what we necessarily agree that it is. It's how do we make a difference with it for change management is really the the people side of change.
So it's not the technical product development, it's about the people. All the processes, the ways of working. It's the end-users how you get people to deliver the, the new thing that you're creating and how do you make it become sustainable? And it's, it's the process for taking people on that Journey from my perspective. Fantastic. And so what's your take on that? So I think change management for
me is right on point. What Joe's saying they're right, it's such an exciting topic and I think it's such an integral part. Of personal lives as well as our organizational drive towards, you know, our vision Etc. So I think that for me, you know, change is about identifying and addressing, you know what, it's not working or what is starting to strain at the seems a little bit because
one day it did work. And now, you know, as we sort of progress through years and years of economical growth, you know what, starting to strain. In a little bit.
And and and really looking at, you know, are focusing on those kind of areas and looking at what we need to improve going forwards and to Joe's point, you know, it's it's it's people that deliver change and its people that deliver projects and you know, a lot of the time people come to a solution that needs to be in place and when we talk about solution, people talk Technologies and it's just so much more than Technologies. It's about the people, the processes.
The industry and the market changed that we having to deliver to and making the world a better place to live in. And also the cultural changes that there need to go alongside the change within our organizations because we don't just put a change in place and hope for the best and hope it sort of scales to our future growth and supporting that, you
know, change. We need a fantastic leadership behind us which is I'm sure is a different topic and a different just for you having but you know, making sure that it encompasses all those areas. And that's just a few right? That we've mentioned here. There's loads of tools and techniques out there. But really is about the people and have we got the right skill sets in place. Understand you know, what we're looking to change?
Why is it a problem? And really kind of breathe that in and and really look to move forwards with a Good team in place coming forward. So that's for me in my context. Fantastic, that's a brilliant summary. I remember reading a quote, once I think it was from Charles Darwin, that red, it's not the strongest or the most intelligent, who will survive? But those who can best manage
change. I thought that really encapsulate the points that you were, you both made their so every project for my perspective delivers in one way or another but that's maybe talk briefly about why projects fail to deliver the the intended. Value. So it's you think there's too much, greater focus on the process and technique and maybe not enough to understand the
people side of change. I think this is a really critical point and I concerns meant that we focus on the day that the binary split between success and failure, because I think very few projects fail to deliver anything, in that case, they've successfully delivered something, but that, the real critical point is, what is it? Why are you doing it? What is it? You're intending to achieve, and are you actually achieving the value that actually required at
ultimately? To make a difference to your environment to your customers, your service users or and the problem for me with focusing on product product development in terms of project delivery, is that doesn't mean that you're actually achieving your outcomes you've created something, but if nobody's using it, you haven't created the value. And if people aren't engage with it, you haven't actually made a difference. And I think we need to shift the focus. Itís much more to measuring the
intended value. So what value which were we trying to create what and how do we measure that? And a lot of that is down to the amount of use that the people using your product for. So if you develop an app and only 10 people use it, but you wanted a million people to use it, you not created the value that was intended and I think so. Tim Creasy from Pro sigh, he coins this. Really.
Well, if you think about the the number of users that you want to engage and that you want to have using your new way of working or change their behaviors or processes, the measure of the value is measuring the number and the the extent to which they are actually engaging. And you can do that by looking at the data in terms of the end users, not the product output. And in order to do that, we need to really understand be able to measure what that intended outcome should be.
What's the value we're trying to create? How do we measure that? How do we know that the people are using it engage with it? And this really isn't a project function because the projects often finished by the time, a lot of the embedding of the product takes place and in my world in in the public sector in healthcare, we tend to separate out project management and change management on sort of fairly big project complex projects.
Because the products and the the processes have been delivered, but the change manager is there to ensure that the value is created by embedding and implementing them across the environment that which to you wish to influence.
And so, where I think we aren't achieving sufficient value is because we're not putting enough focus and emphasis on all of the effort and and activity that needs to take place on the change management side, which is around engaging influencing collaborating and embedding the products that are being developed so that the value can be generated and measured and then the success ultimately defined Right? Okay. That's, that's really interesting. What, what are your thoughts on
what Joe just said to sob? I think it's absolutely spot-on and I'm glad you mentioned the pose. Prosy, I'd car piece of it because I think that for those that haven't been on that it is about creating that kind of awareness desire knowledge ability and reinforcement, right? So behind any project a project will only ever start off because there is a need for that change because a company. Is invested in that change. They need that to be implemented.
Now, when we look at change, you know, and we look at exactly what Joe is said. We shouldn't bucket these into failure or success, right? It's about kind of every project will deliver to a certain degree. The question is, is it a six-week project or is it a five-year project if you are delivering to the original scope and the original brief to what we said? On a five-year project. Then something's not, right? Yeah. We live in a market trending
changing environment. So for me when we look at projects failures in one way or another the biggest the fact that we go back to the business case and we revisit it is absolutely fundamental to why we have steering committees and we have teams and we build that culture within our team to actually speak up about when things are not working. The original brief when we look at the success of any project.
Absolutely spot-on, in terms of, what was the level of adoption of, that system of that process of that change and listening to our end users as early as possible. Right? At the start, when we're building, the business case is absolutely fundamental and building those relationships with them. If I was to take the knowledge that I am ADD car trained, I'm organizational ta trained, you know, I know, Oh, Joe's trained
in your, are science as well. And Prince to Trent, you can take all those qualifications and they will give you a level of training and tools and techniques and chartered a p.m. as well. You know, I think it's really nice within those charted. A p.m. elements that we are starting to build the people element piece to it. And start providing fundamental training to our individuals around, what are the wider pictures that we need to wider
wider skills? Sorry that we need to be looking And I think it's this softer pieces that are absolutely fundamental to anything being delivered. Now, you can have a team that delivers 100 miles an hour and are absolutely exhausted because they are so focused on the delivery, which is more transactional, or we can have built teams that deliver projects that are successful that have got rewards in place that have kind of, you know, allows that kind of open and safe space.
To change and adapt and that's what I'd call really looks. At is, look, you looking at that those stakeholder mixes, have we got the right people, people pieces involved, you know, have we spoken to them Health, we got stakeholders, you know, engaged early on, you know, buying into the change. So that we, you know, we can all talk about what our and feed into that change and build that change. So I think, you know, ultimately people deliver the change and
you know what? That future state looks like is really important to be able to visualize as a group and as a lead and and start setting that in stone quite early on and as a point of contact kind of go back to it. So when we do kind of get a bit more involved, I think when this question, you know initially you are scaring, you know. I thought about me and Joe and I thought well Joe's primarily from the public sector. I'm from the private sector.
If we were both given the same I'm briefed the same set of were both trained to the same level, you know, it would be interesting to know how differently outcomes would be. Because the way that Joe would build her team might be very different to some of the skills that I'm looking for, in my team, the environment that we set both of our teams up against, you know, are we going 100 miles an hour or we're going
to break this up? So the word agile comes in a fair bit these days in organizations but that's just an approach of delivery, right? The product, you know, Mentioned, you know, when we then look at the product development, well, yes, there is a level of product. But really, we're looking at that business case and the original problem and the area that we're looking at and saying, how is that area going to develop in the next five
years? And how sustainable do we want to make this solution as in people processes and Technology as part of the brief that we are working on? So it's a lot more rounded in that sense and I think that there is no such thing as a failure in any project if we are addressing the organization and the market need now and we have the right people and we're training people to skill set to deliver fantastic. Yeah, that's really interesting.
So really what we're talking about here is kind of team's people process markets, obviously individuals, having the right skills and communication is absolutely Paramount here. So I mean, how do you really bring people on Let me rephrase it. How do you bring people on you with a change Journey? If you're going down that route there, any techniques or tips that you can, you can share Yeah, so and it builds on some
of the things. The salt was just talking about and I'm sure she will talk a little bit more about this in terms of some of the methods and processes out there. She's mentioned sort of pro PSI and they had car model and she talked about how agile and and again, we're working in a very complex ever-changing and very difficult environment.
Now, it's very uncertain, you know, We all know the kind of view and vuca definition, and we know that actually looking at how we work with, in this volatile, uncertain complex and ambiguous. Environment means that we need to adapt the way in which we work to fit. Both the sector the the kind of change that we're trying to do but also the changing environment around us and there are great tools and techniques out there. So Melanie Franklin, she's developed an agile.
Change management method. So that instead of looking at agile product development, it's about agile collaboration and agile, change outcomes. So it's measuring the outcomes rather than the product development.
So so there are really great tools out there to support people going on that Journey. But for me, that there was still something underneath that that was really preventing us from Understanding why and understanding how people engage with change and so you can follow the process and yet still fail to achieve your outcomes and that, that took me down the route of looking at understanding Neuroscience.
So, so Neuroscience being the, there's the science that looks at how the brain works and how it works both from a chemical and a physiological. And a biological way, that sort of says, actually if we are Suddenly afraid because we think that A change is going to happen. That's going to have a negative impact on us. It might put our jobs at risk. It might change how we work, it
might make us vulnerable. Then there's a chemical and a psychological impact that then prevents you from thinking logically the fight or flight instincts. The the chemistry that makes you feel anxious that gets your heart, pounding that sense of the adrenaline that's rushing through you and all of that kind of stuff. Is the stuff that stops free people from being open, and confident, and comfortable, and creative.
And yet we if we want people to go on a change Journey, we need them to be in a positive mindset. So, understanding neuroscience and understanding how to engage with people, and the different ways in, which people will respond, and how you can adapt how how you engage with them, that gives people an insight into Being able to support people to get into a positive mindset and a positive way of thinking that creates positive chemistry and a positive
mindset. So there's a lot of work that's been going on around neuroscience and and the impact that that has on project management, Carol hasta wall, she's just having a book published right now around neuroscience and project management and the this Really useful insights into understanding for project managers and change managers. And those that are leading it, how we can adapt the way in which we approach change, and how we can work with people to get them to go on a positive
journey. I think everybody's familiar with the Kubler-Ross change. Curve, you know, the one that sort of takes you down into the fear and denial and then so anger before coming out the other side into sort of a positive acceptance and add, Lactation and part of our role is to be able to understand where individuals are on that Journey because you can't treat them as a group.
Everybody is an individual and have their own set of life experiences that create their response that is unique to them.
So, so for me, the thing about the change journey is understanding how people are potentially going to respond working to create an environment or A way that is supportive that gets them into a positive mindset, that allows them to go on that journey in a positive engaged, creative and comfortable way because everybody's journey is individual and everybody has to engage and choose to go on that Journey. You can't make people go on it.
So so for me understanding the neuro science that underpins the how people work and how people think and respond is really. Cool to then be able to understand our people coming with you. And what else you need to do, to support them to to engage positively in the change, and to help them to get in a place to go to take that Journey. That's fantastic. That's really interesting.
I've never, really considered the Neuroscience side of things and bombings in the when we upload the podcast, will put details of Carroll's book in the in the link section there. So, but it's our posture already.
Take on on how you bring people on the change Journey, you're not going to believe this but I think I'm very similar to jar that will a long-lost sisters for so I think absolutely spot on Joe. In terms of when you look at Coopers change curve, that's more about the individual and the feelings that they go through, you know, you look a tad car and that's all about the information enablement of, you
know, all of our stakeholders. And I think that I was on a similar journey to Joe which is you know, you kind of Implement and use all the tools and techniques. But there's always something fun, something really sort of fundamental bubbling underneath and you can use all the processes and techniques out there. But I think that the actual psyche of the individual is
absolutely key. And, you know, it's funny because you know, I struggled a couple of years with a particular mind, frame of a business analyst, you know, I'd build a brilliant plan with really understand the kickoff and With come out of it and I do my 12 ones and you know I'd go to business analysts every now and then, you know, passing on a watercolor how's it going? And you know they just they just didn't understand the question, you know, on the plant.
Like what part do you mean? Because naturally their brain type in their psyche, you so far in the detail that they've got this Beast of a question? Now, when and you're kind of asking a high level and what does this mean? And I remember at the time going to my manager going, not touch us touch. I'm really struggling. With this group and a friend of mine, actually, you know, advised on going on a psychic Orson.
And I did, I started my journey on transactional analysis, which is about, you know, the theory of the personality and the systematic psyctherapy of not just personal growth, but personal change as well. And it was I was I was going through that Journey, did I realize?
You know, you've got theories there about the personalities, the communication, you know, between you and the person that you're working with You know, you can deliver the same message but in a different way, will they understand it? The relationships that you have with the individuals and how much have you as a person? You know, growing up from child to adult are bringing yourself into that organization. You know what, feelings are you bringing in?
If you've had an experience in childhood, you know that has been more kind of parents that this and you've gone off and done it, you're more likely to probably bring that. Into the organization. So I think it's kind of understanding the individual. That's on your team. So I'm very sort of, you know, when I build my sort of, when I come back to the question that you asked Calvin, you know, how do you bring people with you along the journey?
It's understanding the team that you want to bring the person along the journey and really building that kind of relationship with them and understanding. What does safe space mean for them? You know, is it psychological? Is it physical? You know, and I think the other element to this is building that trust and honesty where, you know, people feel comfortable enough to say, hey, I've made a mistake on this right, but it's not up to just that person to resolve that mistake as a team.
You build that environment where you all step outside your roles and you, you helped resolve a problem. And I've had many, a programs at the moment that, you know, we seem to be cookie cutting this some respects in our organization where we are starting Starting to do that, you know, we're building teams where we are going to make mistakes, you know, setting up a program and think this is going to be perfect. We going to follow the plan. It's never, it's never a good way to set up.
A team is with there are going to be changes. We are going to realize that you know, when we get to design we you know we may have missed it. That's fine. Let's let's figure it out. And let's come back today too. So I always bring people along the journey from a data perspective. Understanding you know there are some XY. There might be stretch goals for
them. So I always speak to my individual team members and try and understand what their development plans are with their manager each year. So that if I can give them the opportunities within my programs or projects that will allow them to, you know, go, hey, I've kicked that off or I now want to, you know, progress why not giving them the opportunities to grow as individuals within your projects and programs giving them the visibility is Leaky and
supporting them. Right? So I think the biggest factor in all of this and Joe touched on it is being there as a leader. To kind of, you know, support your teams, and when your teams are, you know, really thrashing it and really going through this year, you create an environment that you just go right down to. Let's, let's take some time out. Let's enjoy our winds too far, and giving them some of that breathing space is absolutely key.
So when you take what we've just said, and you take it within an organizational context, it's very different to. If you are delivering a project to somebody, that's a shot down, the road versus an NHS organization or a global organization. Because now when you're working in a global organization, you have another level of complexity as well. You're working with cultural changes time zones, you know, you're working with different
attitudes and different. No, you know takes on you know how I may have run a project versus another person. May have run a project. You now need to build another level of relationship. With that person to understand what some of their history and experiences are and come to a
like-minded way of working. So in a lot of global organizations are you will have the roles of relationship managers and I find that there are apps that Yuki and fundamental to kind of helping us understand some of the cultural gaps as well. And and I think it's absolutely
Absolutely fascinating. When you play in that field because bringing people along the change, whether it's, you know, UK or Global or, you know, the finance department in a, in a start-up, you're still working with people and so understanding people and what they may need to do or what made, they may need to change. They need to be changing in a psychological safe space and working with them to understand.
Their fears and hopes around, you know, how do they want, how do they see this project or program changing lives or changing the playing field that they're working in? And I think the other element is is as a leader you you know working to deliver this change but it's not just a framework that we're now following. Yeah it is about the change all the way through from the minute that anybody initiates a project all the way through to China and then also, So, they're after.
Yeah, we don't just deliver a project and go. There you go. See you later. You know, we have to manage our end users expectations. Because now they're looking A Whole New World of. You've just switched us on to this whole world. We don't want an element of surprise. So as much information, you can provide early on. So there are very little surprises throughout that journey and that's absolutely fundamental working with the leadership to, you know, Cascade and move those messages around.
And having a supportive leadership is absolutely fundamental to a lot of the programs that I work with. And I'm lucky to have that, you know, to be able to have that relationship with them to, you know, raise any issues and know and have the confidence that they are going to be resolved, or I'm going to resolve the issues for my team's. So having that trust that Honesty, you know, those individuals are able to come up to you and and provide them with
that growth mindset. And playing field more than anything. I try and make my projects as fun as possible making term at the same time. You know. We do have so many challenges around that. Yes, absolutely. And I mean even when you mention working on a global scale with the different communication Styles and individuals that's
just a challenge on itself. But yeah, really interesting when you talk about creating that comfortable environment and obviously identifying the drivers Joe I'm going to come back. My next question is going to tap into The, you said a moment ago, which is you mentioned the why? And what's the wind up? I always like to kind of focus on not. So, I think the next question
really would be to both of you. How I mean, how can you imagine the impact that you're having on people on the outcome and that really links into to that? What's the Y? So who would like to pick that one up first? Yeah I will if that's okay. And sometimes mentions two really critical things in her lasts. Of comments about this and it all sort of it really all needs to be underpinned with, why are we doing it?
And people will buy into a process, they won't buy into a, you know, a financial element or a particular, you know, way of doing something, you know, you say, oh well, we need to do this differently. What they buy into is a sense of purpose, they buy into a Cause Or a belief or a sense of belonging. And so, the starting point with yourself and with your team is, why why are you doing this? What's what's the purpose of it? What's the aim of it? What is it that you are going to achieve?
Because people people will rally to a cause and I'll say, yes, that's something I believe in that something, and it's an emotional response. It's something a personal. And, and when you're starting out with this, You've got to have a really clear sense of why. Why is it important? Why is it going to make a difference? What's the the impact? It's going to have both on the world on your customer base or what's the value to them? And to you and doing it by
setting the wire. You can bring people together to help to shape the how. And the what, and if you've got that ultimately that keeps you connected that, you have that Cool. Was that? We're going to work on this. This is a really important
thing. This is why it helps you get past the individual conflicts that you might have where people are, wedded, pursue particular ways of working or particular, you know, what they want to do or particular ideas, because if you can bring people back to the thing that join them together in the first place, which is the, why are we doing this? It helps to get beyond the individual and keep people. People focused. And therefore, it becomes not a
personal thing. If your particular idea isn't followed or that particular way of working isn't going to be the one that we take. If you keep people focused on the Y and then you set your measures and outcomes linked to that why? And how do we know which Eve that that's the thing for me that is really critical in terms of setting the team up to start with the Team Dynamics.
But also they're going to go out with Conviction and with passion and with purpose, when they talk to stakeholders and customers and the ends of users and they're going to take that passion and and commitments and in going to infect others with it, they're going to infuse that and that's what gets people to join in. That's what gets people to go on. The journey is that sense of of belief and belonging and wanting to be a part of something.
And for me, there's some techniques you can use to help help to get people shaping that in a practical way. We've done some work with dr. Tammy watch horn, who facilitates training around Lego, serious play. And what we've done as a group and around the project profession program, we did this a couple of years ago to start
with. We brought volunteers from across the NHS who never met before they just said, yeah, this is something I'd like to be involved in Brought them together for a two-day workshop and collectively over that two days. We built the project profession out of Lego, we built the component parts, we built the connections, we built the challenges and the issues, and everybody played a part in contributed and helped to shape that. And what that meant was that the
end of those two days. We had built respect, we built understanding. We built a in different perspective. Has and it meant that we had a both a very holistic and well structured model for what we wanted to achieve. But everybody in that room, had collectively contributed to it and therefore ultimately bought into it and it's like yes this is what we collectively are going to do and that set the tone for us, then going on that journey to collectively deliver on that.
And that was a really effective way of getting people. Pulled to, to build to buy into the why to help to then build the what and the how you're going to go and go forward and deliver on it. So Simonson ex works, start with why is really important place to start. Don't start with the how other what start with the why get people together helped to shape it and then you can work out how you're going to take that forward. Fantastic excellent. And so have you got a view where
on the y-yes? Absolutely, I think I think there's just it's such a large topic gabbing. I don't think we've got enough time, but I think to Joe's point, right? She mentions the five we often on our programs. You know, we have an initiative called the five why's. Yeah, you know, in a process Improvement programs, any programs that we start, we will start off with the why white? Then we'll move on to Let's map
out how we work today. Let's really understand and quite often, that's a revelation. Shouldn't in its own, right? Because your they're doing one piece of your job. You're not always fully aware of the end-to-end process that you are working to and what is achievement that alone will bring people together in a workshop. So I always use my business on this to work on these kind of sessions and really spend the time and understand. Why are we doing this?
You know, and make sure we've got the four problem statement their map out the as is. Now let's look at at the to be World. We've got some high level requirements. Let's understand our tube you world and I think to Joe's point you can do that in isolation in
certain groups. But the more people that can feed into that process in its own right will help by start to buy in and also unravel any think that we you know may not have initially captured where human at the end of the day, we're not going to know or everybody's pieces so the more we can Encompass those folks into those sessions. The better and they will feel part of making and creating that
to be world. So, when we talk about, how can you measure that, giving them the platform and the open opportunities to be involved and how we shape that to be world is absolutely critical because everybody will bring in different experiences. We've got people at our organization that I've been here, 45 years, you know, they will bring experiences that we have got no idea about your
problems. Statements. And I think that when we look at these pieces and when we do these activities really focused on who needs to be there and what do they bring to the table? And ultimately, you know, Joe touched on this bring in a team Dynamic, that means that they're adding value, you know, they're moving the needle, they're helping us improve the way that we're moving forward, and they've had a part to play in that because their experiences of added value is absolutely key.
And as a group, you know, having that energy Raymond having that belief and and knowing that I have got the best team here to give give us what we know today and will also help me drive any changes going forward. Is actually a proud moment for any of the change managers or any of the the project managers because actually, you're all working collectively.
Now, one of the things that, you know, we try and do to measure the outcome of, you know, what we're trying to do on our people, as well as how well the systems have been Adopted is we have a certain rollers you know, change calms and training. We have a whole department for that. I don't any of our programs. We do tend to involve them early on and we've had like a fantastic, you know, sort of carpool, kind of, you know, promotion of a product.
And it gets a little bit competitive between some of the leaders sometimes and we are, we are in is quite nice to show you that right in a playful manner and we have an interview, you know, promoting the program from day one. Now, in a lot of our Coughs. We tend to have them up front so they can answer any immediate questions.
And I think when we revert back to the kind of side key of, you know how individuals work, you know, I'm sure Joe's in this place in this place as well into say, well, what are we actually delivering to, you know, how do I actually feel about this, you know, and an opening up that platforming giving them a voice of how they feel and what they're willing to do when you know actually You know, voicing how this could possibly go wrong, you know, is good information is all really good
information to kind of build in, from, from the start. So, when we look at those pieces, we really do need to focus on, you know, strong leadership. Are people involved in the process of making that new kind of system and that new way of working? Do we have the right new roles and responsibilities, you know, going forward? If we opened up even more opportunities for our teams and I think kind of the growth mindset is the way forward. So I think all of the
methodologies play a part. But again, under Underneath It, All it is about the people and how we work with them and how we deliver that message and how we set up our workshops. That's absolutely key. Fantastic. That's, that's really interesting. And and, and obviously, just with your point there about people, there's talk briefly about the role of mentoring and all of this mean, we've spoke earlier. Joe, you're from the public sector and stab your friend.
The private sector both with years and years of experience in and around changing project management. So how do we individuals process and problem solve with in their roles? And if you've got any thoughts on role models, Joe do we can we uh pick that up, please?
So so for me all of this really starts with the self because ultimately you can't really influence other people unless you can influence yourself first and and I think for me that leadership role is absolutely critical because that sets the tone for everything else as Leaders. We have a responsibility to Assad said to set the culture set, the behaviors that we approach. Create the psychological safety. And if that's not something that you're very familiar with, then Amy Edmondson book.
The Fearless organization is a really great starting point. How do you create an open supportive engaging environment that allows people to flourish and if you can do that you can then enable them to become really successful and deliver in their own specialist way as well. So the thing about starting with yourself With is ensuring that you feel not only safe to be able to talk, but also part of it's about being allowed to be vulnerable. And that's saying we don't know, all the answers.
We sometimes struggle with the pressures. We are doubt ourselves in terms of the direction of travel sometimes, and some of that authenticity and their openness is really important because if you create that as an environment, then others Will it be able to to express that themselves and then you can deal with those fears and those
emotions and those needs. So Brent a Brown's book daring greatly I think is really important one for as an individual to think about yourself and how vulnerable you feel sometimes and how you can be open about that to create an environment that then is open to others. Amy M is also has some really great resources around team.
X and team creation. So, having created that psychological safety, she is got a book on teaming, teaming for Innovation, extreme teaming and you know, difficult and changing circumstances and whether, you know, you're in the public sector where you might have perhaps longer and more established teams to work on things or whether you've got a lot of short-term changes where you're bringing people together to work collaboratively in a short impactful way, you need to
know the tools. Techniques to be able to do that in order to support that team to be set up and to run really quickly and effectively and then that's about supporting the individuals within that team and understanding who they are, what's important to them what is their their particular Dynamics. So that you can build trust and respect and openness within the team where everybody is valued. I think for me those are critical starting points. That's really interesting.
And I think there's always times when we all doubt ourselves. I mean, I know there's a lot of people who made start new jobs and there's that impostor syndrome which which Creeps in, and by all means, I'm sure that could be another podcast or webinar that we could do a whole session on. But so I'll have you got a view one on on this aspect of things. Absolutely. And I think again, I think Joe's touched on ta a fair bit there, you know, it's about the self
and others. How do you work with others and being a K within yourself. When we look at role modeling and mentoring, you know, it does start within yourself identifying, you know kind of what what qualities you want to improve. What values do you have versus, you know, what values you want to kind of develop over the years is key and I think that continual learning and that wanted that hunger right to continually learn is key.
I think again, you know, Joe's mentioned some brilliant authors there and I've read a few of those you know, for me.
Me I think really the fundamental idea of a role model is somebody that you look to and really kind of not necessarily look as a hero but like look at their qualities and values and actually, you know what, I know I have confidence in that person that if I go to them and they're, you know, I raised an issue, we're going to resolve this not to, you know, in a bullish way or anything like that.
But actually collectively, we will be able to work through this and I have confidence that no problem is, you know, too big or too small and we get through this. And I think, I think, you know, from a self perspective, there are some really good learnings out there and I think, you know, the initial kind of mindset that comes to his Armstrong's organization in the mind. You know, it's really how you are network within your organization.
How well do you actually know your organization and and really looking within and going? I guess, where do I fit in this? We talk about the person within the role and and then with the organization, you know, in ta and and it's like actually needs to be the perfect triangle, you know, everything.
Are all lines equal well, you're not always going to be in the right role or you may not have the right opportunities and actually having the open discussion with your managers and generally kind of mentors around your organization. And then also looking for mentors, outside your organization. It's absolutely key. The other piece is around, you know, improving the way that how do I work? Well, with, you know, all these
members? Well, there's a book called by Anita mountain and Chris Davidson which is about working. Together and that really hones in on, you know, are the different kind of cultures and the way that you work and techniques and and tropes. So there are some techniques to soft techniques that are mentioned in that book around
pieces of that. And then when you're facilitating workshops and you know kind of pulling together, some key areas, like I've just said, you know, the as is mapping the as has world, there's a book by gray brown Which is about gamestorming. So there are, this is just a book full of techniques that you can possibly use within any of your projects. And it's it's a great go-to guide with in tact actually have a look at those pieces. Now, if you're working in an organization that is more
reactive. There's a book called The anxious organization by Jeffrey Miller. And I love that book because I think it brings a talks about the hot potato and the six-second vacations that You know, you can have that there are times when you do need to go into some difficult discussions and team discussions and you need to just take a step back and bring back. What Joe was saying that positive positive kind of Next Step. How do we work through this?
Because no problems, you know, anything that we can't resolve. So I think that there are a number of areas and organizations do promote having mentors and having a look at your next step. And I think it's really important that as an individual. You know what it is that you are looking for within yourself to improve and be able to articulate that because people want to help and people want to drive change, not just within the organization.
But as an individual and grow people and no organization will ever, you know, look at somebody that's great and, and actually just stopped their development. You know, we'll keep developing them as an individual. And it's Putting that you look towards that Progressive kind of person ago, who will help me grow as an individual and take me to the next level and help me get better at what I do. And it's not always about
climbing the ladder either. It's sometimes looking sideways and looking at those skill sets that, you know, we're not all perfect at, but we can tweak Fantastic. Thank you. So up and you ride with regards to mentoring, we've certainly into research, a p.m. conducted recently. Had a lot of calls and feedback from our members to ask for more support around mentoring. So at the beginning of the year, we set up a mentoring platform and we've seen a huge growth with both mentors and mentees.
And I'm pretty sure that my understanding is that when someone is at a chartered status, it is very much about giving back to the, to the community and I think that's a fantastic way to to move forward. So if anyone's interested in that too, to check out the the
website I'm conscious of time. So I've only got, I think one question left and then I just want to get your guys take with regards to some recommendations but there's a lot of resources and books that you've already kind of tapped into and we'll get on to that in a moment. But probably my final question really is just to find out your views really on some of the young unsaid aspects that the mythology Don't actually teach
you. Should we go to sob and then Joe if that's okay, So so I think for me creating that autonomy, yeah, within your teams and actually setting out your sort of how you expect, you know, what your contract is with your team. So, you know, I often say, you know, I'm not going to clock watch. I'm not going to, you know, do this. I just want you to be open honest and raise issues, you
have the autonomy to play for. If we work with a process that does not work in this context, speak to me will absolutely work. To try a new way. And I will support them through that. So creating that environment to give him the autonomy, and the authority, and the permissions to have a play and work freely within an environment, to make it to do a deliverable is absolutely key, you know, it's that trusted place. It's creating the one team mentality.
It's creating that kind of space to embrace change, right? Every day. You know, you can Embrace change and there's no black and white. White. There is this gray space that we are playing in and giving them the space with without too much restrictions on time. And and I know time is wise a difficult one, right?
Because you are working towards a goal but giving them that space to think play and build relationships but then also you know bringing that a fun element of you know, making sure that they don't have any outside noise and that they are absolutely focused. Is that I think for A the unsaid, but the list is endless. I'm sure Jo Jo will touch on loads more to that. And I think two people will never deliver the same. I think that that's that I'd love to test this Theory out at some point.
Thanks help. I think I think Sam's really cuts the heart of it there, which is that the methodology is. And the approaches to say, setting up the teams or to running programs or projects tend to be very formulaic. But actually ultimately, we deliver we're working with individuals with individual people, with individual sets of talents and interests, and passions and capabilities. And that thing about creating sort of autonomy is about understanding each What is it?
They're passionate about. What do they care about? Will they naturally good at and shape the roll around the individual? Not the other way around, because if you, if you shape the rolled around the person and you play to their strengths and you support their development and you give them the autonomy and you give them a clear purpose, that they've sort of signed up to and bought him.
And they will do amazing things and you don't need to then sort of do all of the sort of like the oversight and management. And stuff because they will they will just go off and and and deliver because they believe in it, they're able to do it. You given them the tools and the skills to be able to do it. And that's how change will really happen. And the flow of success will really come from that.
And for me the starting point with that is leading by example and and that's about knowing yourself. Are you in the right place? Doing the right thing. Are you do you have the autonomy? You have that Keen. Sense of purpose. Are you doing something? You're really passionate about because you can't instill it in others, if you don't have it yourself. So, so for me, the thing about all of this, and all of the change, kind of elements is
start with yourself. Look, inside, are you happy with where you are and what you're doing? And are you passionate and you have autonomy and do you have the skills needed to do it? Do you love what you do? Can you infuse that love into others? Because if not, then that's the place to start, and that's the place to start for yourself, and then to support others with, and that's not in the methodologies. Brilliant.
Okay, so in wrapping up, if for people who are listening to, this is there, what, what do you want people to take away from this into session? Is there any, any kind of real key takeaways, any any resources books articles websites, that you would recommend? And by all means we can get those uploaded into the into the the podcast itself. SOB over to you. I think, for me, it's let's think outside the box, think of what change, you are bringing
every single day. And look at the why you're doing it, you know, is it bringing passion to Joe's point? Do you enjoy what you're doing? And if not, then let's really. Look at that. Brilliant. Okay. What about some books? I think you've mentioned a couple. There were. I think gamestorming was one. Was that grey-brown? Yes, yes, that's correct.
Working together by Anita mountain and who was the what was it the anxious organization if I'm right there was that one the anxious organization is a great read, Jeffrey Miller wonderful. Thank you and Jo if we could go over to please. Yeah. So so for me the starting point with your own journey is perhaps looking at brain a Browns work around daring greatly because that's about understanding yourself and your motivations
and feeling. Getting into a place where you're comfortable being vulnerable and, and being authentic with others and taking that risk, and I think that's really critical thing. And then talking about the team and how you support the team to enable them. So Dan Pink's book drive is all about team motivation and how you shape the roll around the individual. And then there's Amy Edmondson is work around the Fearless.
Creating psychological safety, her books around, teaming, teaming for Innovation, and extreme teaming, that's all really great stuff. And then in terms of understanding your, The Wider organization and the customers and the end users, there's some really great stuff from dr. Tammy watch horns written a book called The change ninja and that's about and it's quite a fun interactive book that helps
sometimes. Yeah, helps you understand different choices and the impact of different choices and and therefore gets you to think about how you might approach this ahead of time. So to achieve some really great outcomes and get some great engagement Melanie, Franklin's work around, agile, change agent, and agile, change coach and thinking about the the change manager as the coach rather than as somebody who is pushing or delivering. It's about how you engage with others around that.
And And as that SOB has mentioned. So Tim Kris, he's written some books for pro side but also we there's some great models and methods to support that change process. But ultimately Simonson ex works start with why, why, why are you doing this? What are you passionate about? How can you articulate that for
yourself, for others? So that when you start this journey, you've got a really important and passionate way of Being able to convey it. And that's the thing that's going to get people to come along with you. Yeah. If I may just add another couple of books on that one, you know, as Jose speaking, I remember reading Stephen covey's, the 7 Habits of Highly Effective. Oh yeah, but that was like fantastic, classic fundamentals are the Armstrong organization in mind.
That that's a fantastic background read if you get time to very small book but again it goes into you know how You can still the psyche into really understanding the organization. You're in, you know, leadership teams coaching by Peter Hawkins and then the one then actually didn't crop up. Until Joe mentioned about Dynamic teams was the group dynamics for high-risk teams by Amy Farrah, that is a fantastic.
Small little book and probably is really good to read over a weekend that goes into, you know, how do you create this high-risk teams? But again, you know, the topic of this Whole conversation is that, you know, it's all about people and how you create those teams really does depend on the environments that you work with in. And I think there was one, Joe you mentioned it earlier on our dear friend Carol lost a while. Yes.
Yes. And that's really all around Neuroscience for projects and change management and that's just coming out. So that's definitely one to look into to understand how how people work so that you can work better with people. Fantastic, excellent. Well, thank you very much, Joe Sal but I think we could have chatted for another hour, but that was really, really interesting. I thought I've certainly learnt a lot and take a lot away from this.
I'm sure our listeners have and I look forward to working with you again in the near future. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks to Joan solved for taking time, out to join, Gavin and conversation and to you for
listening. If this episode has inspired you to find out more about leading change, all the science behind teams behavior of full reading list is available in the episode description where you'll find links to the books, recommended by Jones Saab. If you have any comments or feedback or suggestions, please contact us at a p.m. podcast at think publishing .co.uk This podcast has been brought to you by APM the chartered body for the project profession. For more information visit to a p.m.
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