Managing stress and avoiding burnout

Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host. In this podcast, we're taking on the subject of stress, how to enjoy it, how to manage it, and how to deal with too much of it in the right way. We'll also be giving advice to the project leaders among you about how to manage stress

levels within your teams. I'm very pleased to welcome my guests today Clara Chung, lead author on the APM Report The Well-being of Project Professionals and Reader in Engineering Management at the University of Manchester, Veronica Sicombe, a project manager at Mott McDonald who's currently based in Saudi Arabia, and Rochelle Sampson Clark, a business intelligence project manager for NHS South Central and West Commissioning Support Unit.

Veronica and Rochelle are the members of APM's Women in Project Management Interest Network and are active in its well-being subgroups. So welcome everyone. Managing stress, maintaining work life balance, and at the more extreme end, avoiding burnout is a modern preoccupation. The 2025 APM Salary and Market Trend Survey showed, for example, just how important flexible working is to project professionals in their desire to maintain some kind of work life balance.

Yet let's not forget that the right level of stress can be enjoyable and motivating for many of you working in project management. So I would like to invite you car as leadles from the report on well-being for APM. I'd like to invite you to tell us what the most important things you discovered during research and what has changed, do you think, in within work since that was published?

Yeah. Thanks, Emma. Actually, when we carry out the APM study a few years ago, one of the biggest discoveries was just how much project professionals were struggling compared to the general workforce. They're less resilient, more at risk at the psychological strain and under string very great pressure on unrealistic workload, poor communication and very difficult work condition as well.

This was like important evidence based because at the time, well-being in project management was still, I would say, an emerging topic. Many people thought it's just a nice to have rather than something fundamental to project delivery. But since then, I think awareness grow, particularly the pandemic, the shift of the hybrid work, flexible working and more recently digitalization using more AI have been made well-being impossible to be

ignored. But new risks have also been emerged because like very blurred boundary of digital overloading. And then also new opportunity come such as as I said, flexible work patterns. But what hasn't been changed enough, I would say, is well-being is still too often treated as an individual responsibility rather than a systematic 1.

So my argument is that it needs to be reframed as a strategic enabler of project success, every bit as important as time, cost and quality, but not just like nice to have to be. It's really important points there and something you talked about, the systemic level of stress. I think all too often individuals feel as though if they're struggling with their workload or the stress, they feel it's because they're failing somehow that they're not

approaching it well. When actually I think this is most of the responsibility should be on the organisation or the OR the individual manager or leader to make sure that they are giving a sensible workload or to give support to people in in in managing them. Is that something that really came out from the report? Yes, that's the strongest message actually from from the the report because the data actually show the main sources of stress were systematic.

So things like unrealistic deadline that you already talked about briefly, lack of resources, inadequate training or poor communication, these sites think it's not issue for individual that could simply solve by being resilience or work harder. They are symptoms of how projects are designed and deliver. So that's why we argue actually in the report for the intervention to improve the well-being level that should be

at 2 levels. So at the organisational level the responsibility is to decide healthier system. So for example, I plan realistically, allocate resources properly, create supportive leadership, make well-being as the part of management and culture. And at the individual level, of course, coping strategies like time and energy and management are valuable, but they should be the last line of defence I would say, not just not the first one.

So we found the structural change at organisational level, organisations basically risking placing the entire burden on the individual. It's both unfair, I think it's also unsustainable. Is there a certain type of person who's drawn to project management, someone who actually enjoys the adrenaline of a deadline, like a certain amount of stress, the challenge of it, it can you.

Was there anything you noticed in your research that that you could characterise this kind of broad community of people by? Do they love a bit of stress? I will say on this report, but just based on my personal experience, OK, because I also work in industry for 10 years before I become an academic, even I become an academics, I'm still teaching project management. I think yes, there's typical, there's certain types of people really enjoys being a project

professional. First of all, people who like change, people who think of challenges, yes, we have that. I think that kind of people tend to get into this career path easier. But still we need to carefully manage this. Although we enjoy being challenged but doesn't mean we can chronically being challenged and without boundaries. Veronica, could you tell us a bit about your role and the kinds of stress you're under and how much do you enjoy being a little bit stressed or?

Right. So Emma, I'm a multidisciplinary project manager and I'm currently based in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. So my role is a blend of planning, coordination of multidisciplinary design teams, managing schedules, budgets and managing stakeholders who generally don't want to be managed. So you can imagine there's a lot of stress that's associated with working with humans and the deadlines that are associated

with project management. So that obviously requires flexibility and structure at the same time, which can be quite challenging most times, but you enjoy it. So in terms of stresses that I face, I'd say trying to get up to speed with project requirements as the project is progressing. As you know, construction is a very fast-paced industry. No project is pausing for you to get up to feed with everything. So you have to do that consistently as the project develops.

And then there's also the stresses that's associated with the stakeholder management. Stakeholders generally don't want to be managed. They've got their own requirements, they've got their own deadlines and they have their own expectations. So that that can cause a lot of

stress on my side. But having said that, I do enjoy the stress that comes with it. It is counterbalanced by the by achieving these deliverables, for example, and deadlines and you know, getting those wins, small wins do do make me happy. How? How long have you been working with him? Project management. So I started off as an architectural design technologist. I've been in the eight years now in construction, but I've been doing outright project

management for four years. What have you learned about how to manage stress for you as you become more confident in your ability to work, which you kind of is, I guess as natural as you climb a career lad and you gain more experience. But is there any kind of one thing that stands out in terms of how you think about stress and and your workload that you perhaps wish you told a younger version of yourself or people who are kind of early on in their career?

It's knowing that stress is inevitable. Whatever you do, you know, that's one thing that keeps me going. It's inevitable. The the key is managing that stress.

So I've come to have some sort of boundaries to to know when to say actually I need support from my team to deliver the whatever the project, whether it's the fee earning project or a big project, whatever it will be. So it's knowing my boundaries and knowing when, when to shout out for help, for example, and not just keeping internally and trying to to thrive without the support because that can be detrimental.

Absolutely. I'm Keir Saski, is now your working not in the UK, you're in Saudi Arabia. So I guess throughout your career you've faced new stresses, so there's a new stress of working within a new culture. And how has that been for you? Has that presented a whole new level of challenge that you

haven't had previously? Absolutely so so I was with Matt McDonald and in in the UK decided to relocate to to Saudi Arabia when I first joined the company in Saudi Arabia, everything, even the smallest of task would be quite stressful. This is this was all dependent on what was going on outside of my actual work. So it's the the, the stresses

associated with relocating. So trying to settle in, trying to find a home, you know, just trying to navigate the, the culture, the working culture and just the general culture here in Saudi Arabia. So, but year on, I'm more settled now, even if the project is challenging, it's not as stressful because I, I'm now settled in. So the point I'm trying to make is external factors do play a big role in, in the stress or you know, the, the project

stress that you face. Michelle, tell us a bit about your role and the kinds of thing complexities that you have to manage and and the workload you have, the various stresses you face in your role every day. Yeah. So I manage digital and data analytics projects within the NHS. So I think everyone is aware of the challenges within the NHS, the usual, the tight budgets, the tight deadlines, those kind of things.

And I think in most projects, as been mentioned before, the the stakeholder management elements, those varying requirements, the push and the pull of stakeholders in different directions and things, which is something as project professionals is really important to try and master, not just for our for our projects, but also for our lives personally, how we manage the conflicts in those different

situations at work and at home. So yeah, I think those are probably the primary and also things like uncertainty change. So you did mention that we love change as project managers. I think to a certain degree that things like uncertainty, organisational change, changes in leadership structure, those kind of things are challenging. And at the moment we're kind of facing that in the NHS and other organisations are probably

facing the same thing. So those are sort of the main stresses that I'm facing at the moment. But I think that I was drawn to project management because I've always really enjoyed being in control and the stress, well, a healthy level of stress of managing multiple projects, managing things in my life, and just being in control of that. And I think quite a lot of project managers are drawn to it because of that type of lifestyle that they live.

Because I'm, I moved into project management later on because I realise it's something that's quite suited to my personality. So yeah, I think that I enjoy stress, but I've had a lot of learning and I've adapted from where I was when I first started out and, and, and the challenges that I've had in managing stress. I've definitely adapted my style, but it has been difficult to sort of let go of that. I need to be in control and I

can manage all this myself. I'd like to invite all of you to ask how generally how stressful you think project management is to working as a profession and how that does depend on where you are in your career. So Veronica, you've ready talks a little bit about like when you're starting out in your career. But would you all agree that that that perhaps when you're early on in your career that

that's the key? That's when you're first exposed to a lot of stress, I imagine, and you're maybe foundering around as to what the expectations are that you can't say no to your boss. But then equally at mid management and senior levels, there might be different types of stresses you face. So I don't know who wants to who'd, who'd like to tell a bit of, you know, well, I think that. I think that stress, it really varies. So you will have stress in all

any way you work. I don't particularly think that project management is more stressful because for example, you could have great budgets, you could have realistic time scales, a great team of people that you work with, your stakeholders and your project team. But what we have is we have those identified risks that could come into fruition throughout our projects.

And it's those and the new issues that arise, which can then cause a project that was going really, really well and low stress, everything flowing nicely to then become quite stressful. So it it's that uncertainty, the risks and then the issues in our projects that probably might throw us over the edge. But I would definitely say that, you know, all industries are going to have different levels

of stress. But I think because we do work in such a multidisciplinary way with different teams and, and large groups and, and these restraints that it can be quite stressful. But also what your point about depending on, on where you are at in your career? I definitely remember when I started, I wanted to prove myself and I wasn't, and I wasn't a young, I didn't start young in the profession. So I was actually quite

headstrong. And you know, I had a lot of life experience, a lot of job work experience and stuff like that. So and a family and a child. So I was a mother at that time, which is the the difference. I think if you're starting early career and you want to really make your mark, you're a yes person. You don't want to be seen as oh, I'm not able to do this. I can't show any weakness by saying no to a task. I don't have any authority at that stage in my career.

And if I say no, then people think I'm possibly incompetent. So I think there is that challenge in early careers, but it does depend on when you start your career, when you say early careers in project management. Absolutely, but that obviously just picking up on what you said, Rochelle, that can be very detrimental being a yes person. It's now you do have to prove yourself. Absolutely.

You have to show people your capabilities, but you have to take a step back and reflect and and and take note that, you know, stress can lead to burnout. So just picking up on on the fact that yes, it does stress does differ depending on where you are in your career, but it also depends on the individual's character. So what might be stressful to me might be energising to you for you, Rochelle. And I think that's where we need to make sure we're not having a unified measure of stress for

all project professionals. You know, we need to be to be taken into consideration the human aspect of project delivery in in making sure that we are recognising that as leaders or as organisation on an organisational level. It's learning about yourself and how you how you deal with stress, what kinds of stress you like. And so becoming more self aware, I guess it's key to communicate that to whoever's managing you or who whoever you answer to.

And it might be more than one person, but that can you have to be pretty brave to be able to do that, unless you work in an organisation where it's set up, but that support is set up and, and, and they're, they're ready to help you. Clara, what did you have any thoughts around this? Yeah, Actually we're just going back to your original question around the stage of career, because when we do our last report, the APM study around well-being, we define early

career. Early career, the definition for us is just getting to this profession, three to five years of experience and then afterwards you progress to middle level, you start to have the measurement responsibility a little bit more and then you go to the senior. So we found actually the most stressful group is the early

career profession. And then some of the possible reason behind that, I think Veronica and and Michelle already talk about is the lack of control that they feel because they always need to say yes, OK, and then unclear expectation. They don't know how to ask question to clear, OK, what is the expectation on them and the

pressure to prove themselves. I think they both also talk about it while they progress to the mid career profession, they tend to feel also very squeezed by multiple projects, people management, delivery deadlines and then they are all multiples because usually you just handle multiple projects, right?

When they progress to senior, it's not saying that they have nothing to do, OK. They still need to balance the weight of strategic accountability, overall portfolio performance, but still what they feel is they feel more control over what they can achieve so that possibly alleviate the stress level that they experience. When it comes to different stresses you face in your work, perhaps sometimes it's not just about how to having too much work to do. Can it be a lack of work as

well? Yeah, definitely. I think that it's not just about managing multiple projects at a time that sometimes there, there is a lack of opportunity or a lack of understanding of where you're going or, or seeing what you're, where what you're actually doing is going to take you. And a lot of organisations there isn't, there aren't those opportunities, there aren't training opportunities or opportunities to progress.

And I think that can be just as stressful as having to having work overload or also not having enough work as well. So having those periods of no growth when you're kind of left to your own devices when projects projects are quiet, that can be equally stressful because a lot of people need need things to do and to keep their mind going and also to to just know that their careers are going to be moving in in a

forward trajectory. So yeah, I think that can also cause stress in a lot of project professionals lives too. Yeah, it's horrible feeling stuck when you feel stuck in a place where you like, you say you're not being stretched enough or you're just treading water and. You're right. That's a, that's a kind of different kind of stress, isn't it? But then if but either if the other two if you like to comment on that. Stress is not necessarily a bad

thing. OK, we need certain level of stress in order to perform well, but we're just talking about excessive level of stress that leads you to burn our situation, which is not good. So like what Richelle was talking about, I think is falling into the group that people not getting enough stress to perform well. They don't get enough training, they don't get enough opportunities to grow themselves.

I think that falls into that before getting too stressful at the other end of the graph, because the graph should be in AU shape. OK, you need certain level of stress in order to make your performance at the top. I think everyone needs the level of stress to, to, to, to get better and better each time to flex the, the muscle, the brain muscle, you need some level of stress, but not a prolonged

period of stress. It helps if you can see, say for example, you've got deliverable, you've got deadlines. Once you hit the deadlines, you're seeing, you know, light at the end of the tunnel and that can be manageable. So, you know, you've got, you've got to go through some level of stress for a certain amount of time. And after that you come out, you're winning, you're celebrating your wins, you're celebrating the fact that you've hit the deadline and your client is happy.

And you know, there's, yeah, stuff like that. Just going back to Rochelle's point on not having anything to do that can be very detrimental to people because then you, you, you sit down and you're looking at your peers, for example, their their stress, they're being stretched constantly. And you start comparing yourself, what am I doing? You start questioning your, your, your, your existence really within your career. Did I make the right choice?

Especially if you've come from a different career path, you've joined, say, project management from say, whether it be architectural technology like I did. I come in and I've got nothing to do. I will definitely start comparing myself to my peers, you know, maybe, yeah, you know, doubting myself and doubting my decision. So it's definitely important to have some some level of stress. What should the best organisations be doing in terms of watching out the stress?

And too much stress will burnout within their team. So is there any advice you would give to project managers or project leaders about how to be the kind of boss that a person would like to have when it comes to thinking about stress and overload? Is there any advice you'd pass on to people like that? Either you've picked up or you've experienced yourself as someone who's had who's who's

got the right support. Yeah, I think, I think a people centric approach is important when we're talking about stress and delivering projects. You know, understanding people's different strengths definitely take, you know, as a leader for managing a project. If I know what my team's capabilities are, I'm less likely to stress them out and burn them out because I'm not asking for too much from them.

So it's definitely understanding that having these team meetings catch up to, to make sure everyone is understands what their requirement, what they're having, clear roles and responsibilities, making sure those are communicated to the wider team is for me, I think important.

Just speaking from experience. I always feel unsettled when I'm not sure what's required of me. Therefore, clear rules and responsibilities is absolutely fundamental for for to to be able to deliver as you require them to. And I guess it's having everyone else understand what you're, what you've got on your desk. So I've had jobs before.

I had two bosses and one boss didn't know what the other one was giving me. And it was really confusing and really stressful because I, I was right in the middle and neither knew how much my work code was. So I guess the best project teams, everyone knows what everyone's up against and is supportive. Tell me a bit about the Boost meetings you have. Yes, we have the booth. Meetings to set up, to set the

scene for the week. It's really a strategy, a positive intervention strategy where people can feel heard, you celebrate wins, you talk about what's happening in the week. And just to give that, to give people that psychological safety, you know, to be able to, to speak without judgement and, and develop and that way, it's absolutely brilliant. And I think I'd take it everywhere I go. How long is it? Do you have it at the beginning of the week so you have it on a Monday morning?

Yeah, Sunday morning with it being in Saudi Arabia, but yes, half an hour and then if we've got more, more to do, would probably take 45 minutes to talk about prospective projects and stuff like that. Yeah, it's a, it's a brilliant initiative. But as well as that, we also do have champions, well-being champions within the office and staff council leads to to just to make people aware that they are people available when you are going through things.

And you need to have that discussion about surrounding stress, whether it's resourcing, whether you're too, too stretched. So yeah. Do you feel confident now? How long do you think it takes before you're able to say, look, I need some help because that can be a really daunting thing to say and realise that it's not your fault. It's not that you're failing,

it's that it's under resourced. Do you feel that in a position where you can say that and that it gets listened to, there's one thing saying it and some of your boss saying, well, just go on with it tough. There's no more money or there's no more resource to actually people listening and being able to help or explain at least why that help isn't available.

Yeah, it does take a while. And again, just touching up on my previous point, it does depend on the person's character because you you can find an ECP who's very able to, to to say, look, this is too much for me. I need support for ABC. And then you can, you can find someone intermediate level project manager not able to actually say what they require. So it does character does play into it as well. You know, having that just to say, actually, I need the support. This is the situation.

And then wait, when you get to a situation where you have voiced your concerns and nothing is being done, it then gets to a point where you need to reflect. Is this what I want to be part of? Because no mental health is where you know, no, no job is working mental health. You do have to take a step back and reflect to see what you know, what's the best way forward because it can be quite

detrimental. I think Rochelle, you mentioned that you have been through a burnout and it's recognising not you don't want to get to that level. What do you do? You have to reflect on you know where you are, what you need to do moving forward. On that point. As. Project professionals, we are always taught the importance of communication and I know that Clara mentioned that there is an organisational responsibility to ensure that our well-being is being managed and I I fully support that.

But I also see the flip side of the fact that as individuals we need to be better at self advocating for ourselves. We need to actually know our boundaries and also our level of tolerance. So for example, yeah, IA number of years ago, actually slightly before I started as a project professional, I was managing projects in that role, but I actually went through a period of burnout and stress and low mood. So it was a part where I was

able to manage loads of work. And you can manage multiple projects and do it really successfully and thrive on the stress. But the minute something external happens in your personal life, something unexpected happens, that's sort of what might tick you over the edge. And that's what happened to me. So these things were going on in the background at home and at home, at work, I'm still trying to manage and I still have this responsibility because all this time I've been so successful at

managing these projects. It's absolutely still required of me. And at that point, I wasn't particularly good at communicating. I thought, you know, well, I've been good at managing these projects for so long, I need to maintain this. But also, I had no room to breathe with everything that else that was going on at home. So, and I think that that happens in a lot of circumstances, but we need to be better at communicating. It's a key project skill to have. But if we don't, if we don't

know our own boundaries. So that kind of taught me my level of tolerance and I kind of needed to be to get to that point and to get to burn out and, and that level of poor well-being to know that this I'm not, I can't get back to this level once it starts to get to this point, it's time to put some things into place to sort of manage that. And that included, you know, communicating, letting people around me know what was going on.

Was that quite hard to do? Is there any advice about how to do that well that you've learned? Do do people tend to really fear it? But when they sit down with someone often find that people can be very supportive? I've been really lucky with who then the where I've worked. So I worked in mental health. So there was that general understanding before I moved into project management of the need to support people and people's differences and, and that kind of thing.

And that kind of gave me the foundation, but it didn't stop me from, from being burnt out and, and reaching that level. But what it did help was the fact that I could always communicate and I there was, there were people around me that would support me. So for example, I used the workplace employee assistance programmes. So that included cognitive behavioural therapy and counselling, which was part of the, the things I did to help to

manage my well-being. But it is, I find that finding allies, I would, I'll use the term allies, but finding people within your organisation or building good relationships is really key. So a lot of us, we do say, oh, keep your work and your home life separate.

But actually, if people don't know anything about you, they don't know you know your lifestyle, they don't even know you have children, they don't know you're anything about you, they're not going to be able to support you in in a reasonable way. So I think teams leaders need to learn about their people and vice versa. So that you know, as as a group of as your project team or as, as the, the people that you're leading.

You all know your triggers. You all know when you're, you know, you're getting to that point of sort of no return so that everyone can kind of support you rather than just being in your individual silo. You're I'm going to manage this on my own. I don't want anybody to know about my personal circumstances because it's not a negative. It's not a bad thing to to share these challenges.

I suppose Rochelle just picking up on that and working individually in a silo, no one knowing anything about you. When you work that way, it's really difficult to, to build trust. And when you've got trust, it's easy to work and work to a common goal. That is one of one of the criteria to, to, to building an effective team. It's that trust knowing each

other outside of work. You don't have to to tell them everything about you, but you, you should be, there should be some level of trust for, for people, for teams to be effective and efficient. Otherwise it's just it becomes impossible, doesn't it, to to work to a common goal without the trust? Well, Rochelle, I wanted to thank you for sharing that with us. And also we're touching on some really big things now.

Cara, is this we? What should an individual do in order to prevent getting to where Rochelle was, which is being burned out because prevention is better than cure. This is much easier said than done. So how can you as an individual know what's right for you and protect it? So protect your mental health. I think. You. Detect the sign where you leave the edge of burnout. OK, just like what Rochelle was talking about. You know yourself OK whether you have no mood consistently.

You. You feel you lose interest on the stuff that you're usually you're interested in. So you need to detect this on the sign just like myself, OK, I on top of my research, I carry several senior leadership role and I also have a lot of international collaboration projects required me to travel constantly, OK, around the world. And I also need to manage three young kids at home. So you can imagine this is like

a jungle. And then you will have problems from your family which will affect your work. OK, For example, my boy is sick. I cannot deliver the class eventually I cannot go in. Then get that gets back to Rochelle's earliest point. Do you have do you do your group members understand your situation? Do you have alliance which could help you step up to help your work? OK, at least to temporarily help

you to teach for a while. OK, so all this will help you to prevent, to get into the point of burnout, OK? So first of all, understand yourself, set the boundary before you step in, before you enter into that point, ask for help. I think that is very important. And then don't believe because you ask for help, you are a weak person. I think this kind of mindset we need to change, OK? Because that not just affect yourself, if you don't ask for help, you eventually affect the

entirety. Because if you burn out, that means you're not coming back for a long period of time or you get sick, OK, That is really not, not good. OK. So I think that kind of mindset we we really need to advocate and change so that people are more open to share their challenges and ask for help. I think it's clear that we're everyone is under different

types of stress. So you have the stress of your getting your job done, you have outside of work stresses, but also something we shall said about you have the stress of the project you're working on, but there might be organisational stresses in the background. For example, within it NHS, we know there's big shifts happening and that's something

you that's beyond your control. So how do you cultivate what a type of mindset or an attitude towards work way you can almost deal with that in a sensible way? Is there anything the three of you have learnt through working about the type of attitude that can be effective that can help you successfully deal with stress?

In the midst of all the changes, organisational changes, but you've got no, no control over, I think the best thing for you is just stay open to learning through the chaos. Stay open to learning and see this sometimes not too much stress, the level of stress. See that as an opportunity to grow, grow from from one level to another, for example, and just making yourself adaptable because change is constant. Like you say, a lot of decisions are being made at an

organisational level. There's nothing you can do about it. But what you can do is something you you've got control over is how well you deliver and how, how a thing open to change, making sure you're learning and adapting and growing so so that when you, when things are settled down, you feel you know you're not you're not left behind as to say you're you're still developing through the chaos. That sounds brilliant. How can I pin you down? Because what does that actually

mean in in reality? Like learning or growing from something that could seem quite daunting? How do you actually put that into practise as an individual? I feel everything as an opportunity, no matter how difficult it is. I may be asked to do a task that I've never done before, but I know I will definitely gain something out of it. I might not enjoy it, for example, but I do it and I'll that's the skill that I've got now to use in in my next chapter in life, for example.

It's like how you frame it, framing something that could seem really daunting or difficult, so you don't want to do something. I will go away with having learned something, either a technical skill or a personal skill or something. There's something useful I'll take away that's really great. I'm I'm going to try and take that mindset on. I think we call the growth mindset and I always frame it. I also make it as OK, you have a challenge, then that means you have opportunity.

But I always tell myself it's just a matter of time. I will master OK. Keep. Coming back to myself, it's difficult, but it's just a matter of time. Give myself a little bit time to grow into that space. So keep telling yourself like this will push you regulatively hard or more positive.

Stay positive around that and on top of all this, I how I manage it. I think I always try to tie up, although that situation is stressful, but whether that could bring a deeper sense of purpose that align with what I try to do, what I try to achieve for my life, for my work. So, for example, like I, I, I my vision is to help workplace to become safer, healthier and more inclusive. This is my vision for my work. I try to align that with what I

need to cope with. OK are the challenges whatever that come through. I think that is quite work quite well for myself because you know, you're working for something bigger than just the task in front of you now.

And the other tips I think is quite useful is really try to tie up with your personal strengths when you tackle with the challenge, whether you can bring out the best of yourself, no matter you're good at dealing with people, you're you're you like to learn, OK, Whether you can tie all this up with what you need to tackle. I think that also helps me along the journey because that will fuel the energy, not just drain you down. OK.

So those are the stuff that I think is quite, quite useful. It's really useful, Rochelle. Was anything you wanted to add? Yeah. I was just going to say for me, the lack of control, you know, the uncertainty, so I can deal with uncertainty in my projects because it's not directly happening to me. But things like organisational change, those kind of leadership changes and that kind of future

unknowingness. I would usually, you know, there's no time scales often or you know, you just have to wait, you have to sit back. So as a project manager who likes to be in control, I've kind of really had to learn the skill of relax, what will be will be and we just need to roll with it, which is totally alien to everything in my body. So I need to know what's happening. I need to be in control and I need to have the end goal, you know, the end date and be working towards it.

So. Yeah, I've had to really change. And I think as I've, as I've gotten older and more used to, there are lots of changes that have happened. You kind of learn to kind of roll with it and, and just go through it rather than stressing about each day. So and, and what, where, where we're going to be in, in six months or a year or whatever. So yeah, it's quite a skill to just relax. So some really brilliant advice here. Can I ask you, has anyone learned anything about how to say no?

So a first of all, feeling that you should push back. And then how do you say no to something in the right way? Because I imagine you need to say it in the right way because you don't want to go away fearful that you've upset your boss or you said I'm not capable or I'm failing. So but yeah, it's you recognise that you have boundaries that you need to protect and it's just too much.

So if any of you picked up anything about how to say no in the right way or just being able to push back to people. To me counter off the choice for that. Counter off of the choice. What do you mean by that? Say let's begin negotiations, you're saying. Yes, because just give you an example. I handle a lot of projects, I mean research projects, and then I need to handle a lot of stakeholders for each of the projects. They would try their best to

change the scope of the project. And then I would just tell them, OK, if you want to change A, you want to additionally you want to add A into the scope, then you need to trade off B originally on the scope. What do you think about that? Then it is, oh, actually you're right, that is more important. So that's why I say it's giving them it sounds like a choice. OK, Yeah. Well, actually, yes, you're right, it's negotiation. OK, Veronica picked up.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when it comes to resourcing, I think that's the biggest challenge where you're being asked to do more, get involved in more than two, three projects. It's, it sounds easier saying it, but actually have the facts, the, you know, the factual information. I've got this project to deliver. It requires so much time for me to do it. Break it down and communicate it to them.

Actually put it on paper, Communicate it to whether it be your resource manager or your line manager and see how they respond to it. If if you've got it written down and it makes sense, it's highly unlikely someone's going to say, actually, you still need to do five extra projects or five extra tasks. I feel like having that in writing definitely does help in, in, in winning the battle to say actually, I, I absolutely can't, can't pick this up for this

reason. It's visible when you so show someone something visually. It's really difficult to say actually, no, you know it. We still need you to do it. Well, it's, it becomes a, a wee problem, not just my problem. So what do we, what can we do, what extra resources can we get to, you know, to, to deliver this? And this is where the organisations then come in. It depends on what type of organisation you're working for.

Some, some might just say, look, this is it, you have to do it, we've got nobody else to do it. But then you then have to start reflecting again. Is this where I want to be? But we are problem solvers too. So as project professionals, we are problem solvers. So I'm always of the mindset that saying no is not a weakness. But if I'm going to say no, I can come up with some some strategies or some plan for what the alternatives can be.

So for example, I would go to colleagues who I know may have more capacity or may be able to support me. And I'm not just going to go with the problem. I'm going to try and come and go with the solution because I think that that always is, is favourable rather than pushing the problem back to your line manager or your leader to say, look, I just can't do this. If you are able to have a plan for the alternatives, I think that often helps as well.

Because it, you're right, it isn't a me isn't isn't just a me problem, it's a we problem. But I can also facilitate in that because they my my manager is a programme manager. So he has a programme of projects that he has to manage. So by just having the things that are causing me stress and trying to offload them on someone else, it can be detrimental to the rest of the team or other people. So try to strategize how to solve some of these problems

too. Just wrapping up now, if there's one thing that you'd like listeners like us all to take away from, from your whole experience of managing stress and avoiding burnout, what would that one thing be? Clara, I'd like to ask you that. I would say dialogue. I mean, keep open communication and as a leader, as a project manager, create a psychological safety space so that people are willing to talk to you. I think that is very important. How do you do that? Everyone talks about creating a

psychological safe site. Is it partly role modelling yourself what that means? Yes, I think role modelling is very important. I mean, no matter. You. Really doing more mentoring, OK, for people in your group and as well as if you are going back to the stress management, you are the symbol of taking off, OK. You are the person who really take off in a visible way so that people will know, OK, she's serious about that. He is. She is serious about work life

balance. I think that those are the symbolic meaning as a leader we should be aware of. Thank you, Michelle. What would what would be your one thing that you'd like us to go? Home with. I'm definitely of the opinion that a problem shared is a problem halved. That old saying there you don't struggle alone. And also by identifying your own triggers, it's one of the most important things that you can do because you will be able to know yourself better than than anyone else.

And also what is about to tip you over the edge so you can put in place measures that can help to prevent you getting, you know, pushed over the edge so you can ask for support and communicate. So sharing your problems isn't a weakness. You know you people. We need support in every aspect of our lives, so it's important. Can I ask how you protect yourself now? So are you very religious about logging off or having certain

work hours? Or do you make sure you make time to do other things outside of work that you know relieves stress? Yeah. So for me, I, I and like I said, I need to know what's going on and things like that. So I actually do the opposite. And I'm sure that you ladies were probably going to say this is not good for me. Things like on a Sunday night, I may check my emails and I know advocate for that, but but this is what helps me to plan my week.

So there's no unexpected. Well, there will be unexpected things happening, but I'm I'm aware of what's going on. So it's really individual. So things like for me after I will change, change outlook. If I'm in the office, I change out of my work clothes and try to disassociate my home life

from my work life. But I do check my emails, you know, but I'm not as I was before where I'd go on holiday and be thinking of work and and working and to the point where I was dreaming about my projects, which is not everybody. So. Yeah, I've definitely learned to balance that because I know my, I know my triggers, I know what will happen and you know, I don't want to get back into that

place or burnout. So yeah, it's very individual as to what even as to what we can do to prevent stress. But yeah, definitely logging off if if you you know, logging off and disassociating your private, your personal life from your work life is important. I think that's a great point because we're bombarded with so much information about what you should hate, what you should be doing, you should be doing this and that, but actually you should be doing what's right for

you. And if that means going against the advice that's given, it doesn't matter because it's what works for you. It's what works for you. Yeah. OK, Veronica, what? What? What would be your takeaway? Everything in life hinges on a good plan. So whether you plan on going on holiday and checking your emails, that's fine as long as you do plan to say, look, I will check my emails at this time and then take time off actually to

switch off. That's why I laughed when Rochelle was saying I'm on holiday. I do check my emails on a Sunday. As long as that's what works for you, I think that's that's brilliant, but it's planning. Planning is critical. You say, I'll plan to take some time out to do whatever it is that helps you recharge, whether it's going to the gym, whether it's spending time with your son or whatever you do to, to recharge and, you know, re energise ready to get back to work. Plan to do that.

And also plan for a resource to take over the work that you're doing when you're on holiday, for example, they help you sleep easy because I'm, I'm sure everyone goes through this situation where you're on holiday and you think, you know, I didn't do that or something needs to be done. You know, it's planning. Plan for a resource to pick that up while you're away. It gives you that Peace of Mind. Thank you so much. We've had we've covered so much

ground. There's been so many brilliant tips that you've passed on. And I've never done a podcast with so many fantastic sound bites. It just leads me to to say thank you. Thanks everyone for joining us today. And I wanted to thank listeners for for listening to us today to the APM podcast. I'd also like to mention the Workplace Well-being profile on the APM website, whichisapm.org.uk. And and don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your

podcasts. And we'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. And Spotify users can also send us feedback directly within the Spotify app. This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body for the project profession. For more information on APM, visit to apm.org.uk.