Welcome to the IPM podcast. APM is the childhood body for the project profession. My name is Emma divita and I'm the editor of project apm's quarterly journal and your host. I've invited three project professionals who are here to talk about what it's like to be an introvert in a profession that on the surface, at least appears to favor the extrovert, this situation, leaves many Introverts having to fake it and
to suffer the consequences. So isn't it time things change here to share their experiences and offer their advice. Our Alex Constantine consultant at P cubed, Claire, Hornsby a project manager in strategic partnering programs at BAE Systems and Natalie Tolbert. Our manager for Alchemy where she consults and digital transformation projects for public sector clients. Welcome everyone. First by way of introduction, I think.
Would each of you mind saying a little bit about your role and the kinds of projects you work on. So Alex, do you want to go first? So, I am a senior principal consultant for Mig sop cubed, we are Specialists project management consultancy. So we work with clients on, portofolio programs, and changed and pmo gigs. My background is, I'm not
industry-specific. So, I've worked across most Industries. So, for example, I'm currently working with a client, client in the real estate area previously, I was working with a telecommunications client so very varied client based Thank you, Claire. Would you like to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your role? Yeah, so I'm clear Hornsby, I am a project manager within the head office within BAE Systems of which for Bae for 26 years and have been in project
management. Probably about sort of 23 24 of those. The the role that I mean currently is looking at improving project. The processes and how we deliver I guess better outcomes specifically to our mod customer. But the intention is that the benefits are then felt across all projects to all customers. Thank you. Natalie welcome. Do you want to tell us a bit about your role and projects you're working on? Yeah, no problem. I'm see how I'm Natalie.
I work with an SME. Consultancy firm called Alchemy at the moment. I am in manager, I've got a split roll so I work deployed on client contracts, doing project management and controls in digital transformation projects mostly across the public sector at the moment and I also work in our bid Factory. So I also manage and write proposals to windy work for the business. So I've been in project management sort of officially
for three and a half years. Now prior to that I was accidentally project managing when I was so used to be a research scientist before, switching things up and entering the P3 I'm space. So, it turns out, I was accidentally project managing my research, throughout those four years. So, unofficially, seven years in project management, officially three-and-a-half. We're all gathered here today to talk.
About being an introvert in the project profession, you all think of yourselves as introverts. But what does that actually mean in everyday working life and and what's it feel like to be an introvert in the project profession? So Alex I'll ask you to be brave and go first. It's interesting because you come across people quite frequently with who perceive project managers to be the people that lead from the front go out, you know, tell everyone what to do, and get things going
and get things moving. And, and I'm glad to say that there are not as many people like that around that anymore. Because if that's the expectation, then that can be quite intimidating because it doesn't come natural. So do you mean that you're expected to be this kind of gung-ho extroverted leader? That's what it means. That's what people think it means. It does to. Yeah, because you are effect a project manager is effectively a project leader there.
The person who are expected to take something and create an outcome and it comes Responsibility, you know, and accountability very often to to deliver whatever the project is set out to deliver. And I think if you have people who are naturally extroverts than they kind of often expect that that leadership Position will be done by an extrovert person or in an extrovert way, which doesn't come naturally. It doesn't mean that it does that I think.
Yeah, I think every extrovert every introvert. Can be extrovert or have an extrovert features, right? It doesn't mean that we are always quiet or always in the background or whatever it may mean to people. You know, it's not a fixed State. It's just the preffer natural preference. We are what's your natural preference in the way you work? Well, my natural preference is I like working As much as possible, you know, in smaller groups are one to one.
So, take an individual approach with people build consensus, in that way, and work with stakeholders in that way, and then bring larger groups together. After that, in order to you know align people into a specific Direction. Let's put it that way. Whereas others may feel more comfortable just, you know, get everyone in the room and you know, let's hash it out and find a way, right? That, you know, I find more difficult and personally, I would probably, you know, making
decisions off the cuff. It's not something that I naturally like doing, I prefer to step back have a think about it. Probably informed myself and then and then do it that way. Okay, that's an interesting Insight. Well, how about you, Claire? What's it? What's it mean? To be an introvert in your sort of everyday, working life and how do you prefer to work? I guess, my initial thoughts are
that. I'm not sure that it feels any different to anybody else in that, you know, an extrovert can sometimes feel anxious or unsure. And I guess as well because I'm an introvert, I don't know how an extrovert necessarily feels, and I guess personally, I like to plan my weeks, but I like to mix a mix up those engagements
days with the thinking days. So I make sure that I've got that balance through the week because effectively, you know, it's how I get my energy so I don't get my energy through presenting to a load of people. I get my energy through sitting reflecting and then sort of coming up with a considered thought. And you know I guess that's similar to what what Alex was saying if I've got a particularly We busy week with lots of truffle, lots of
engagements. I need to make sure that I've then got the downtime to, to be able to recharge. I can't do, you know, sort of weeks and weeks away, and then, you know, sort of getting home and then having to do stuff at home as well, it doesn't stop me. You know, being able to present or have big meetings or get a
load of people in a room. It just means means that I need to prepare for it and I need to make sure that I've got enough in reserve to be able to do it and then enough dying down time afterwards. How do you prefer to interact with a team? Then it depends on on the team. So if it's I mean, I'm fortunate, the team are working at the moment, we're all introverts.
So we all know to be able to give each other space, but equally when we get together, it's a really safe environment and, you know, we can, we can have those discussions, we can bounce off each other and it's You know, it's really good being sort of face-to-face, sending a team together and if it's, it's then sort of wider wider team and, you know, sort of other stakeholders, I do prefer the sort of 121, you know, similar to what Alex was saying that individual engagement and then
getting everybody together. But as I said earlier, I mean, I'm sort of all so happy. If we just, if the only opportunity only option is to get everybody in a room, then let's get everybody in a room. Because it's the outcome. That's not it's the outcome. That is important. Not necessarily the way it's done and unless they have about you has it? Well, was it mean for you to be in interpreting them in your everyday? Working life? Yes. I'm just thinking about this question before.
It's sort of encouraged me to reflect a lot. And actually, I'm at a point now, where I feel I feel in control and I feel comfortable with the fact that I'm an introvert, but I had this realization actually Early stages of my career. Particularly when I was starting out as a grad, actually I really I didn't like that.
I was introverted. So especially when you can see that those around you are energized by doing a presentation or they're looking forward to hosting this Beast of a workshop that they're doing in that afternoon. And actually, I'm sat there thinking, oh my god, what have I done? And I can't think of anything worse. How am I gonna am? I going to survive this P3 and world? If our if You know, I can't do a workshop and every five seconds, I'm finding myself in a workshop at the moment.
I think, as Times Gone on, I've got more comfortable with the fact that she had. Don't enjoy that so much and that's fine. We'll different and I leaned into what while it was two things, really it's understanding. What can I do to make that easier on myself? And what B? Do I enjoy the again? I can lean into and as I've progressed I can sort of steer things more towards what I prefer. So forcing those sort of more one-to-one relationships and being Being a bit more proactive
and going and engaging. Somebody want to 1 instead of waiting until you're in a room full of people being deliberate and how I use my energy and how I plan my time and how I maintain my social battery sometimes. How does it, what does this look like in everyday life, for me? It's drawing down on that reflective nature of being an introvert, but being a bit selfish with it and reflecting
on how I'm doing. And how my social battery is how my energy has and Trying to understand what's in my control to tweak called a new throughout the week, to get me through it and to get all the important stuff done for my clients because ultimately client comes first. I can't just been off of Workshop because my client needs that I'm there to provide, you know, Top Class service and that's what I always Endeavor to do. So what are the things that I can control and can tweak to
enable me to perform at my best? You start to talk a little bit about the problems that being an introvert could raise in work. Alex, if I could go back to you what problems has been an introvert raised for you, kind of personally and perhaps with with other members of your team or other stakeholders. The biggest issue I had which is act which, which annoys me, and I always feel really guilty about it is.
If my workday depleted me to the amount where I don't kind of, don't really want to spend time with family, and I just want to like have a bit of time to myself and that makes me feel really guilty. So the moment, you know, I come to a point where you know, I come home and I kind of go I can't face This, that that's a real big problem for me because, you know, the hours that I have with my kids and with my wife
are absolutely precious. So, one of the big things that I try to do is I try to not let it get to that point. For me, it's, you know, simple things like taking 5 to 10 minutes during the day a few times, just to go out, get a bit of fresh air, have a bit of A walk. If it's particular stressful, breathing exercises, or a bit of mindfulness, something like that, so it doesn't need to be major things. So it's really about creating that space to be on your own and to reflect and just relax.
Yeah. Reflect and recharge, I think it's the right word because I think, you know, we used the word depleted a few times, you know, already in in this session and I think that that really kind of really resonates with me as well. Is that becomes The point during the day where you are just depleted and you need to recharge, do you mean depleted by social interaction?
Yes. If I'm in meetings all day and you know, having to, you know talk and engage with groups of people and probably fight my corner on more than one occasion facilitate. And and and there comes a point where, you know, the battery is just You know, depleted and the worst thing that can happen for me is leaving it to the very end of the day, so that there's no opportunity to recharge until I get home. And have you found working with
other project? Managers of the team members who are not introverted, or expect you to behave in an extroverted way, what's your experience of that? So, I'm lucky in the fact that within, you know, The company now work this. They are extremely inclusive so I have never had a problem in that respect here being a consultant or project management.
Consultants you know, I do Faceoff to clients quite frequently and some of them and some people do come with that preconception of a project manager needs to be a certain way and that does pose a challenge, I am happy to report the that most people are mostly interested in. Outcomes and it just takes a little while to get them focused on yes with achieving the outcome.
We are progressing. We are getting two to deliver 40. We're delivering what you expect and they stop thinking about how they wanted to livered one of the things that another part of our business introduced is, I started creating a slide, which is kind of The Alexander nutshell slide which is effectively, you know, it effectively, just has kind of three columns about, you know, this is how I'm at my best. This is how I like to communicate and engage engage with people.
And, you know, these are a few important things about that. You should know about me. Well, because the things have you got on there. It's effectively, kind of a summary. Like, for example, you know, I let people know that, you know, if I had a difficult meeting, you might find that. I'm just going to step out for 10 minutes and then come back and check to you after. So, for example, and just just just to set that expectation
off. This is how I this is how I am at my best and that then opens the conversation about with with, with clients and other people about, okay? This is how I held out their best, and then we can find and work together on on, you know, helping each other to be at our best. Pretty good idea. Really good tip. Thank you. Claire. What challenges are issues has been an introvert raised for you in your work.
The key one that that came to mind is, is around meetings and, and, and particularly, if you're in a forum where you've got particularly dominant people and, and, and it goes back to the earlier point, that people automatically assume that project managers are these. These dominant leading from the front kind of people that the people who sit back Wait and consider and are sometimes not heard or, you know, the, the
sort of wallflower in the room. And, and I've very much been that person who's been sat in the room with something. Well, something I've considered really important or you know, really value add to say but I've been too scared to say it and, you know, it sort of probably goes back to a Classroom environment, you know where, right? Who knows the answer to this question and you scared to put your hands up in case you're wrong.
And so, you know, I was very much sit in the back of a meeting and not say anything, just in case I was wrong. And, and, and the other bit is again in a meeting.
When you've got those dominant voice is being able to get a word in edgeways because I'm not a natural shouty person, so I'm not Not you know a table Banger. I'm not going to stand up and make my point heard you know get my point across but equally I'm not going to sit in a meeting and put my hand up and say oh excuse me do you mind if I talk now? And so it's it's sort of getting that balance and and also getting that trust of the people in the room.
That now, I'm here for a reason you've invited me to this meeting for a reason. Because I've got something to contribute and it's having that self-confidence too. Well, they wouldn't have invited me if they didn't think. I had something to contribute. Have you found a way to make yourself heard in meetings? I have two ways of dealing with it. One is its of waiting for the Gap in conversation and sometimes that Gap just doesn't appear in which case you, you know, it's a case of Physically
leaning forward in the meeting. So, you know, if you sit, sit back in your chair and you've got your sort of arms folded in front of you, then you're automatically not as present and at the table as you could be. So it's very much a right leaning forward. I'm going to get the attention of the person, in fact, I'm doing it now. You know, I'm going to get the attention of the the person who I want to interrupt or who's speaking.
And the other the other approach I've taken is finding a friendly person, within the meeting, or, you know, knowing who's coming along to the meeting and who's a sort of a collaborator. So, and having that conversation with them. So, right. Okay. You know, what's, what's the structure of the meeting? What's the topic or? Well, I think I can contribute here here and here. So if I haven't said anything, Then, you know, can you sort of try and get me a sort of
opening? Do you prefer to kind of have virtual meetings or to do work on know what's your preferred way of communicating? Yes, I'm at my ideal is is probably sort of 80% virtual 20% face-to-face. I always surprised myself when I have the face to face meetings, how much I enjoy them and how much I get out of them, you know, the virtual environment. It's really good for, you know, that sort of get your head down and start getting things done.
But the face-to-face I always find is quicker to get a consensus and to get an outcome, then in a virtual world just because people feel more accountable when they're in the room, You know, it's easier, it's easier in a virtual environments, they are yet. It's all right, I'll do that after the call and then accidentally on purpose, forget about it. Defined it easier to contribute to virtual meeting and to think about Zoom calls.
Yes, it is. I guess I use a couple of techniques and depending on what platform you use in, there's obviously you know, the chat function, but that relies on somebody actually reading it. You can put virtual hands up. I use that quite a lot, but again, it relies on somebody going. Okay, class got her hand up otherwise, As rude as it sounds, I do find it easier to
interrupt. And in, you know, in a virtual environment and I'm not really sure why, probably, because there's nobody physically turning in the meeting room to stare at you. You know, you can sort of chip in, you know, over a microphone or even if it's on video and it's not quite as daunting. That's really what what kind of issues has it has been an intra race for you and have you tried
to overcome them. So I think the biggest one for me is sort of that social battery life that Alex spoke about, and it's actually it's been weirdly nice and reassuring to hear somebody else speak about the exact same issue that I have quite regularly. And sometimes I think you can feel a bit, the almost mugged off in the sense that you use all your social battery at work. And then the day finishes and your mates textures are, should we go to the pub to do this
that? And you're like actually no. I can't think of anything worse right now. I just need to sit and recharge and get myself sort of back to back to absorb good state of energy right now because I'm exhausted and it's a really strange flavor of exhaustion and tiredness that comes when your social battery runs out of juice. It's This mental sort of frazzled nurse in your brain and a bit physical to. So that one's huge for me. Have you ever faked?
Look being more? Extrovert, have you ever tried to tried to hide your kind of natural preference? Not to be the kind of center of attention, or not to be the loud one in the room. I think I saw my knee-jerk response to that is basically yeah, every day. And I don't, I don't view it as sort of hiding it necessarily, but sometimes you have to put a mask on to get the job done. Alec thing and Claire. Have you ever tried to fake being an extrovert? Is that something you feel that
you've needed to do? I would kind of, you know, maybe step away from the word faked, right? Because the reason why I say, I say that is being extrovert, is not a fixed state, right? So extroverts, like or introvert is not being is not a fixed date. Introverts And be assertive, instrument, introverts can be the life of a party or whatever other, you know, label, you would like, to put, we can do it, it just maybe requires fast to, you know, get there in a different way than extroverts
word. So for me, it's not for me, it's not about faking it for me, it's just mindfully putting myself into position of amplifying. Those skills that are more natural to extroverts at times when it's required to do so. Thank you, Claire. How about you did you push yourself to kind of copy? How others are in a meeting or to try and live up to the expectations, that others might have of how you need to be in. A project team.
I guess the short answer is is yes because some sometimes you just you know, you have to and I think you know, sort of very much echoing Alex is point. I can be extroverted if I want to be And, but it takes an awful lot of energy. So, you know, my natural state is to, you know, it's a party to
sort of find somebody. I know when just stand and chat to them quietly in the corner, and that doesn't mean that I can't get up and stage and present to, you know, 300 people, because I can, but I just, I need to Steel myself to to get there almost. You know, sort of power poses in the bathroom beforehand. And then I just need to go and sit in a dark and dream for a little bit afterwards, just to, to do that recharged. Yeah, it's just, it's not my
natural state. What needs to change about the project profession? And the way project teams worked in order to allow introverts to thrive because Our preference is to engage people in smaller groups or 121. That creates a really strong foundations for building. Trust with stakeholders. Because trust is built between
individuals. I think we are very good at that naturally of kind of creating that that relationship, that more intimate relationship with stakeholders with clients customers and so on. But I also think that if you're always that person who leads from the front, you might not always be aware of what happens behind you.
And you know, if you're the kind of the person that you know, doesn't need to leave from the foot and you, you maybe have to be kind of observation skills to pick up certain things. That others may not. So, you know, I think, you know, we observe and see things understand and kind of digest Dynamics, understand the Dynamics, and then can kind of adapt ourselves teams and others too. You know, to take advantage of those Dynamics. What needs to change to allow you to capitalize on your
strengths at work? What advice or thoughts, would you give to other project? Leaders of project managers about having introverts on their teams and giving them what they need to do? The best job they can.
Two things may be number one, you know, even though you know, extrovert versus introvert is not part necessarily of the being inclusive organizations in discussion, right, being inclusive organization, you know, doesn't does not necessarily limit you to being inclusive, two different genders or neurodiverse people, or whatever else it is. Simply means that you're creating environments where no matter What kind of person you are?
You can be at your best. So, you know, continuing to invest into that and I'm defying that, you know, will definitely help everyone including and introverts. The other thing, I'll probably say is that for me, you know, courage, which I think, you know, has been a theme, a few people, you know, all of us brought that out that it requires courage to do certain things. And I think courage often is mistaken as something that comes
from within someone. For me personally, there are very few people, many many less than we actually think they're that are naturally courageous and can just bring the whole, their whole selves, you know, into the workplace, no matter what the environment. I think, for the majority of us, me included, actually. Courage comes from having a community and a safe space. And the support of others.
So others give us permission to be our whole selves and therefore, we are able to be ourselves and I think that's that's true for the majority of people whether that's that support comes from. We don't see it because it comes from family, or from friends, or whether we see it because it comes from the work place. Either set. Either way, we create this safe spaces for people to, you know,
make mistakes, learn experiment. So they learn about have the opportunity to learn about how they can be at their best and that's incredibly important I think Claire. What, what, what strengths do you feel introvert spring to team and how can there be better supported? I guess it's that that that diversity. So in in terms of, you know, if you've got extroverts on the team or you've got no male females, it it's having that, that balance, and that diversity of thought, diversity of view.
I guess the problem is sometimes get is that the introverts don't manage to get their points across and therefore, you don't end up with that diversity of thought because the, the introvert isn't isn't putting that point across. Should it be that the person who's running that meeting be, you know, knowing of that and should therefore invite people, they know, to be kind of quieter than others to contribute? Would that help? I think, I think it's
everybody's responsibility. Leti, actually, I think I think you know, we should all be I guess be able to read the room and to understand what other people are doing, what their preferences are. You know what? They've got to contribute and and, you know, if you've got people in a meeting or in a workshop, they're there for a
reason. And if they're not there for a reason, then they shouldn't They're at all because we've all got better things to be doing and but it's I think it's a pain everybody to make sure that everybody else is contributing. And you know, it's it's upon me as an introvert to know when I'm being introverted and But equally, I don't necessarily want somebody to go. So Claire, what do you have to
say on the matter? Because then it's you know, it's everybody had turning to stare at me which I will just go home. Nothing thanks. So it's allowing allowing the introvert that the time to think any advice you would give to sort of project managers of project leaders about how to make introverts feel, I guess we'll comfortable. I like preparing, I like to know in advance, you know what's going to happen, what the topics are. And, you know, the sort of structure of the day of the
meeting, I love an agenda. So, if I have an agenda and I love to know, you know, for for this podcast, you sent out the questions in advance, that was great, because it meant that I had the time to prepare doesn't necessarily mean that I'm getting my point across but it made me feel better coming into this and having that thinking time and I think it's in that sort of meeting public open environment its It's not so it's for other people to consider the introverts and and consider.
Well, I'm not necessarily going to get a response straight away so I'll let them mull it over and then when they're ready, you know, even somebody saying oh you know, Claire can you have a think about this? I'll come back to you later. That gives me that thinking time, but it also allows everybody else to know that I am thinking about it. And I'm not just sitting here quietly. Natalie, what how can project teams better? Capitalize on the strengths of introverts?
Bring one of the biggest things that leaders and project managers can do to help. Introverts is it's going to involve a little bit more time and that that's what makes us really difficult because we're all strapped for time. But what I mean by that it's taking the time to really get to know how your team works. And initially that might be having to have a few 12 ones with So I'll start with that. Default of well, let's get to know new members of my team.
Let's do a one-to-one instead of in a group setting because let's let us assume that they're most comfortable, the one to one and then if when you talk to them you understand the ways of working actually. They're happy and a bigger group setting etcetera than great. You can work a bit more efficiently in that way. And also to so particularly when. So again, in preparation for this is really reflecting on to how I was when I first started
my career. And actually, if somebody asked me to start what's your preferred ways of working that or how would you describe the ways of working? I don't know that I really understood that but the start of my career didn't really know how I like working what my preference was. I knew how I liked working in a lab setting but that's very different to Salting and project
management. So I think some of it as well as leaders and PM's just really taking the time to be intuitive and help someone on that journey and sort of observe what they think somebody's preferences and sort of strengths are and then having that conversation, especially if the individuals really early in their career, I think that could be really
helpful. I'm being open to the idea that actually that you need to muddle through that together in terms of establishing somebody's preferred ways of working and how they Thrive. And then what comes hand in hand with that is thinking about sort of constantly of considering the format of how you're running your project. So particularly and Consulting your project team can change and grow quite a lot as you have members come and go more Consultants drawing. Be that from your own company.
P'nay other companies Etc. And that means you're always getting a different balance of you know how people best work, what they prefer etcetera. So even just being open and checking in with. People wrecking saying is this working for us now? Do we think that this format of meeting is getting the best out of everyone? Is this what everybody prefers or actually shall should we change this? What suggestions do people have?
And being open to refreshing and updating so that ultimately, you're getting the best out of each and every person who's part of the team. I hopelessness of world will gather kind of Confidence from what you've all contributed and the advice that you've given it spin up. See pleasure to have bring you all together and to to learn what works and what and what doesn't. So it just leaves me to say. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you.
Thanks again to Alex constant. I'm Claire Hornsby and Lassie Tolbert for joining us and to you for listening to this episode of the APM podcast you'll find out more about being an introvert in the project profession. In apm's Project, journals spring 2023 issue. Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. We welcome you to get in touch with your comments feedback and suggestions by e-mailing us at a p.m. podcast at think.
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