Welcome to the IPM podcast. IPM is the childhood body for the project profession. My name is Emma De Vita and I'm the editor of Project APMS Quarterly Journal and your host in this podcast. I'm speaking with Doctor Joe Jolly, Deputy Director and Head of Project Futures at the Infrastructure and Projects Authority. He recently spoke at APM's Change Changes conference. Everything is touched by projects, Joe told the audience. The UN Sustainable Development Goals should be actions for all
our projects. We can do these things if we want to. It's something I wanted to blow up with her in this podcast. So listen on as she shares how project delivery can be transformed for the better by embracing data and human collaboration and so improves society and all our lives. OK, Well, I mean, I'll. I'll just begin by welcoming you. Thank you for your time and for joining us. Thanks, Emma. So I recently saw you speak and contribute at the APM Change Changes conference earlier in
the year. And you talked about the need to transform project delivery so that it would become powered by data and would value humans. So what did you mean by that? So probably the best place to point people towards is the transforming infrastructure performance road map to 2030.
You can just it's on gov.uk and then whilst it's infrastructure, you know don't don't hang your hat on that bit too much because when you look at what tip transforming infrastructure performance talks about, there's five themes. So it's digital data, sustainability, capability and leadership market capacity and basically commercial models,
delivery models. And when you look at the diagram in the tip road map to 2030, what it talks about is the system of systems, so the natural environment and the built environment and how they're both. Innately connected and how projects basically somehow intervene in those systems to deliver services. So in the case of infrastructure, we build hospitals to provide healthcare, we build schools to provide
education. But at the top of the the tip diagram are the UN suspect, the 17 UN Sustainable Development Goals, and that's what's described as the outcomes of the projects. So that's saying that through the work we do through the projects we deliver the the outcomes are ultimately the UN SDG's that's what we contribute to. So I think that's.
You know that is huge. At the top of that diagram isn't GDP or benefit cost it's the UN SDG's and and that document has been approved by Treasury and Cabinet Office. You know this is, this is a really significant and I think incredibly insightful and thoughtful and meaningful piece of work and it's that that my team are basically going all out to work with the community. We're a team of nine the project
features team. We can't deliver it on our own, but to get the these core principles of tip into business as usual by 2025 and that's really what we're driving hard at over the next two years through a series of. Three month sprints. So how do you go about making this vision of of TIP actually reality and and how can project professionals listening to this actually find out more about how
to do that? It's an excellent question and and that's why again as a project team we've we've tried to or we have come up with a mission statement you know what is this all about and This is why we're saying tip businesses usual 2025 value LED data-driven project delivery and and the value LED bit of course is, is the UN SDG's we're being led by that that value purpose and unless we are absolutely maximising the power of data and data analytics in project
delivery we will simply not deliver what we need to in the timescales we need to we're sort of artificially cutting ourselves off to a whole. Capability that we're just not capitalising on and yet we use it in our everyday lives for everything else. Why is that? There's a lot of so much interest in this whole area and a lot of talk about generally about the benefits. But is it because we're struggling to find the case studies or discussion around how people actually using analytics
and AI? Is it a lack of collaboration between programmes or across sectors, across organisations in the real world? How do you see that tech like this is helping project delivery? I think we're a long way off at the moment. I think what's great about things like chat TPT is it's it has got people engaged, doesn't it? It has got people genuinely interested and fearful. And you know, humans, we don't change.
Either there's got to be a huge goal to go towards or there's got to be a threat that makes us change and I think we're feeling a bit of that now. So that's good and I think we've got to capitalise on it. But but in terms of project delivery, no, we just not doing it. So. And what I find baffling, and I don't know the answer is, is how is it that in our lives outside of project delivery, you know, the world has just sort of.
Moved along, hasn't it. So we've we've got apps, we've got smartphones, we've got sat NAV, I've got my banking, you know do online banking. I can access my banking data whenever I want to. But why is it then that I can't access the carbon data on my project whenever I want to Or you know why is it I'm looking at spreadsheet with some most likely average quality data in it.
And why then as project delivery professionals do we not say whoa, this is so weird, I can Google anything and yet if I want to find out something about project delivery or what's happening in the community, there's no there's no search engine for that. Yeah, all the tech exists. We can easily do that and it's something we started doing at
the Environment Agency was. Using graph databases you can start to set up, you know, a database of things that are happening, people that are working on things, projects that are happening, organisations working on things. And then you can interrogate it. And it's a piece of work that I really want us to continue now at the IPA. So they're effectively we have a community tool that connects people in a way that we only do it through conversations or
through. I just happen to know someone who's working on something, whereas instead I could just say who's working on improving benefits realisation right now. Ohh great. Someone at HS2, someone in the NHS? Great. Went up to them. What? Why aren't we doing that? Two years is a short time to to get tip principles into business as usual by 2025. But I don't think as humans we change. If we say right, we'll do it from now to 2030, we'll do it in
increments of seven years. We don't change doing things like that. You have to go hard at something for a short time, especially a system like project delivery that has been, that's so entrenched and you know, so set really for so many decades to try to change that system, I think you've got to go hard at it for a relatively short two
years period of time. In order to get things into the system so that the project delivery system changes and then from then on yes you've you've got ongoing improvements and and the community self sustains. So the graph database is a great example of how you get something into the system so that the community self sustains so that it continues to learn and
improve. And if we can get those things into the system, those kind of things into the system over the next two years, then the rest will simply be a follow on How do you change the system and the process so that projects can be done in a way that's more successful, takes advantage of all the data analytics out there and any future tech that comes on and perhaps there's more collaborative. Knowledge and awareness has gotta be Awareness, awareness,
awareness. You've you, you know, astonishingly we've we've somehow just ended up in this place of learnt helplessness. What do you mean by that? Well, people, they heard me say before, but a couple of years ago the Institute of Civil Engineers ran a survey about what makes good design and one of the questions was what are the major blockers to including greenhouse gas emission reduction and climate adaptation into into designs.
And one of the one of the main reasons was it's not part of the project brief and I remember when I read it, I just thought, you know, when did we have to? Be told to do the right thing and the the the sort of converse example of that is the Boston barrier projects and again you can get this paper on the Institute of Civil Engineers library. They retrospectively mapped the benefits of the project against the UN sustainable development goals at the end of the project.
And what they saw was so beyond simply, you know, being a a fantastic flood defence project, they'd also contributed to gender equality because half the design team was female and the contributed to better education because they sent spent time in schools and other things. Now that was kind of happenstance. If you like, because good people did good things. And I'm really not talking about
greenwashing here. What I'm talking about is how we do additional benefit or additional minimisation of harm towards the SDG's and if I can give you a brief example of how we can so easily bring this to life. I was very generously invited to present at the first cohort of a recent MPL a major Project Leadership Academy cohort that was just starting. And the first session was led by a brilliant guy called John Cowell who's a psychologist and he talks about purpose and leadership.
He talks about understanding ourselves and understanding each other and our values. And I talked about, you know, the need to transform project delivery so that we can make the best difference we can for the planet. You know, for people, for the economy, for society and ultimately for the planet. Because if we don't have a healthy planet, we don't have any of those other things. And I talked about the Boston Barrier Project and and how we
can make a difference. Like I say, not not even just the direct outputs of the project, but the decisions we make every single day. And each of the tables are like 7 tables and they they just have the picture of you and SDG's and they talked about one of their projects to say how can we contribute. And then I've got a prize which was I deducted a an orangutan from the WWF.
So that was the prize and and the person who won was a guy called Peter Hoadley from the MOD and the reason he one was the story he took. They were all amazing. I couldn't choose between them. But the reason he won was because of the story he told, the candour. He told it with the vulnerability and the sort of humility that he told it with because that's what we need. And also the creativity in how he saw his project.
Because what he said was my project is body armour for the army and currently it pretty much fits about one size of man. It doesn't fit women. It doesn't fit. Because it doesn't fit, you know, big difference, big ranges of men. So yeah, on the face of it, I'm contributing to gender equality on the USGS.
And he said, and I don't think there's really much else my project can contribute to. But then he started thinking about it and talking about it and he was open minded, you know, he was open minded, wasn't he? And he said, actually, I then thought, where are we manufacturing these, this, this body, aren't there? You know, could we choose where we manufacture it so that actually it it invests it in a really a poorer part of the
world? Can we think about the working conditions of the people there, maybe the education of their children? What? What's the effort? What are the emissions? The air from this production of material what's the emissions, what's the affluence of water? And before he and he said before I thought about it, but you know before I thought about it for long I was contributing to all seventeen goals. And he said in my mind's eye it was like a dart board.
The ones in the middle were the ones I was contributing most to and that's we went out. It was contributing to less but I could still contribute. I could still make a positive additional difference to what I was originally going to do through the choices I make. And I said, Peter, I take my hat off to you. This is it. Now I often get the old, but it's more expensive or low carbon concrete. It's more expensive and.
OK, I get that maybe we can't do everything we want to, but don't tell me on a daily basis we are doing the very best we can through the choices we make, through the billions of pounds we are trusted to invest. That we are doing our best. I I I genuinely don't believe that and and this is about awareness and choices and that's really what I'm advocating.
Emma and I think that puts the project professional as the individual in the kind of driving seat, because not only then can you make your connection with the ultimate purpose of the project and you can link it to those UN SDG's. So I think yes, realising our, our agency as we often call it, isn't it you know that actually the impact I can have, you know the UN SDG's is I think is such a a beautiful framework to aim at because we really start thinking about the system then
how do we make the system? Better so that good things happen and I'm not I'm not gonna angst that I can't quantify all of that. All I know is if we keep working towards them in a positive way and minimising the harm, we will make things better. But very often it's hard to know where to start. I'm hopeless with a blank sheet of paper and that's where I think and the things like data and data analytics are fantastic because again it connects
communities. So one thing that we did develop just a hack the wonderful hackathons that the project data on this it's community runs. Yes, I was going to ask you about that. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Because I read that you you developed an app and that you might be open sourcing as a tool for others to use. So yes, tell us a bit about
these hackathons. So people turn up from all walks of life, really all walks of life, and they come together for two days to solve thorny problems in project delivery just because they want to. Just because they can. Just because they feel good doing it and these people from the project management community then. Essentially, yes, but but you know, it could, they could become from the banking sector or media or you know there's
there's all sorts. And of course, you know that this is a huge shout out to Martin Paver, whose vision really has been, and his values. All about the community achieving the very most it can for itself. So that you know that the brilliant consultancies and the brilliant minds out there actually work on the higher
level stuff. So let's let's equip ourselves with the with the knowledge and that's why advocating things like project data, analytics, apprenticeships is absolutely key And as actually we are just about to launch across government cohort going on the project data analytics apprenticeship. So that's two or three people from every major. Delivery department and I'm
doing it myself. I cannot wait that we're going to go through as a as a cohort to learn about project data analytics to really learn because if we say the IPA, we say be an intelligent client, how can we be an intelligent client if we don't understand data and data analytics. So we're going through as a cohort, we're going to learn together, but we're also going to understand the pain points.
We're going to understand what the challenges are in getting projects in in in leveraging the power of data analytics, in project delivery. And then we can be the change agents, We can be the people who will drive the changes through the system. To enable data and data analytics to be used as it's absolute maximum.
But in the meantime, there's incredibly simple things we can do. So the app that I mentioned again, it, it started out as a spreadsheet at the Environment Agency because the Environment Agency built on the great work of the Boston Barrier Project and then developed an approach where we could really hone in on the UN SDG's that the Environment Agencies programme contributes the most to typically. But it was all in the spreadsheet and of course spreadsheets are a nightmare to
deal with. You know, errors all riddled through it and it's not easy to cut the data and things. So it's crying out to be an app, isn't it? So we took it to a hackathon. Spun it up into an app in two days, spent a little bit more time polishing up afterwards and now it's ready to be used. So again, this becomes a tool that the community can use and imagine if all project delivery
professionals. It's a very simple tool, there's nothing fancy about it. But if you're struggling for ideas, you could think, gosh, I want to contribute for you in stages of my project, but I don't know where to start. I know I'll have a look at this app and see what people have been doing in the way of contributing to gender equality. And then the way my mind works, I'd go, I can do that. Well actually I've got this other idea now. So again, data analytics. It's not all about dashboards
and and. BIM or something? This is about connecting communities. It's about enabling collaboration. It's about sharing knowledge in a way, in a speed that we've never that we don't do now. I mean, I've got to ask you, where do you find this? Happening. Well, well, well, well. Again, all credit to Martin Paver and the work that he and his team do just this week, what he's done and I couldn't. Again, I can send you a link after he's actually launched a solution centre.
So all of the apps and the products that are coming out of the hacks are going to be hosted in this solution centre for people to access. OK, we'll put a link to that into the description for this podcast. Yeah, what you talk about and all the work that you've done so far bringing these good things about. Can these things be taken from organisations beyond government
and civil service? Can there be lessons learned from that so that if you're in an organisation that that that a commercial organisation, can you, can you learn from the kind of lessons you you're, you're putting out there, all the apps and everything? From my perspective as project futures at the IPA, what what, what we've moved beyond, if you like, is we we did have these so-called Tip Pathfinder projects. Which were government major
projects and that's that's good. So you can have you know some major projects that are trying to pioneer, you know some of the principles and move things forward. But if you think about it, we've sort of limited ourselves there to 11 projects or however many you choose. And So what we're doing beyond that then is, is case studies.
So that means anybody, anywhere, whether it's private sector, public sector, academia, UK, global, anybody who is leading the field against these principles, which we shine a light on it, we learn from it, we champion it and how do we embed it? App scale, because let's not reinvent the wheel again. We haven't got time and why would we so let let's learn so much better and faster from others and break down those silos across public and private sector academia. We're nowhere near connected
enough. But again, that's how data and data analytics can connect us more and and that's definitely a you know something we're really advocating at the IPA. So come forward with your brilliant ideas. Well, how? How did people get in touch with you? Because someone might be listening to thinking, hang on, we've tried something that could be replicated across other projects and programmes. How should they get in touch? My e-mail address is Joe. Dot jolly so J o.j.odoublely@ipa.gov.uk.
How optimistic are you that project performance would improve over the rest of this decade? So I'm just thinking about the 2030 kind of road map there and what does it success rest on. I am ruthlessly optimistic.
So I didn't leave the Environment Agency because I wanted to leave it. It had become clear to me over the years you know what what my values were what my purpose is and and for me a life well lived will be that I can say to myself I've done the best I can through the work I do for the planet. And and remember best isn't I've just tried a bit harder.
But my my target of best is the fact that Sir David King is trying to refreeze the Arctic. That to me is what it looks like when you he's just choosing to do that. Nobody's making him do that. He's doing it. He knows it's the right thing to do. So that's what doing your best looks like.
So I I want to know I've done my best for the planet through the work I do. And the reason I'm so motivated about it is that I can see that the phenomenal potential the project delivery profession has to make a difference, the climate emergency is systemic problem. It needs a systemic solution. Nothing is more systemic than project delivery. So the the prize is you know beyond our imagination but obviously we have all this evidence that we're not performing as we need to the the
community as a whole. Project delivery is not globally. We know it's not. So that that's why I was you know this job came up head of project Futures in the IPA and it was advertised on sustainability, digital and data and thought leadership and that is it in a nutshell that is it. And so I am phenomenally optimistic we can do it. It will come down to how prepared we are as human beings to overcome our innate responses. So we don't respond well to risks that are a little bit away.
But obviously, you know, when we were going to walk out the front door and die of a disease, we didn't know COVID. We changed overnight. We developed a vaccine in six months. So don't tell me we can't do it. It's it's that our innate responses to risks and threats don't serve us well in a climate emergency. But The thing is, we know that, so we can choose to overcome
those innate human failings. Whether we do or not is up to us. I am going to ask you one further question that I've thought about since you've been talking It's this conflict between long term. Good and short term finance or economics. So in a commercial environment where you have a project and it's dictated by the money, how do you get these environmental and social necessary goals into the business case? It's an interesting one, Emma, because actually when you look
there's an awful lot out there. So there's the Social Value Act in procurement that was says law that's been around for 10 years. When you look at Treasury Green Book, there's an awful lot about, you know, social value and and other things. So in many ways I, you know my view, I I think we're a mile off maximising what's what's there already. Yes, I think there's a lot more we can and are doing. So yes, you know that that's another part of the system, isn't it? What we invest in, what we
value, how we quantify GDP. Yeah, they're all parts of the system. And yes, let's work at those two. I couldn't agree more, but do not let that. Do not let anybody then fall into the trap of Ohh. But then until that's done, it's not that much I can do really, you know. Of course there is the we are, I I believe we are, you know, 100 miles off, off, reaching the limit of of what that restricts us in doing. If you like, if it costs more, then maybe you can't afford to do it.
But find all the things you can do and actually some things might even cost less. But yes, of course of course you know and again that's that's a role that that we are going our you know as harder as we possibly can around around how do we you know that that system of investment and decision making and what we value. Yes let's change that as much as we possibly can but don't wait for that you know get drives the maximum positive value through everything you do right now.
And also the smart companies are clocking what value will look like in the future. Things are changing and again you know another thing I I really want to to drive at is you know how do we champion those companies who are being brave and and maybe you know pooling their data that are giving away things for the community are making things better beyond their own immediate bottom line because they're seeing the greater value in the longer term.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for companies making a healthy profit. I'm, you know, we need to procure better. We need to have healthier commercial models. We need to be driving, incentivizing and improving industry A, a collaborative industry, one that does collaborate and share and innovate and improve more, not incentivizing a race to the
bottom. So you know the leavers are everywhere, the leavers are everywhere and we have to go at all of them and that is exactly what we're doing through TIP. Again just going back to you know the five themes, remember did some data leadership and capability environment sustainability effectively you know delivery models that's where a lot of the commercial stuff comes in and and sort of
pipelines and productivity. So that's about how you create that market capacity to to incentivise great things because you've got great examples of of national highways committing to low temperature tarmac and then the whole industry scales up around it. You've also got examples of Pilkington glass building making a load of, you know, better energy efficient glass which is slightly more expensive but
better whole life cost. But then it all being they can't sell it, they've got a shed full of it somewhere because then it get, it gets whittled away in terms of the upfront cost. So you know, it's all of those levers and we've got to get them all working, but don't wait for one to do the best with the other, if that makes sense. So really it's about maximising what we've got already and what you can do already and and then that will nudge and push for bigger change exactly.
And don't underestimate the impact of those sort of small signals in a way because that can then nudge a bigger one and a bigger one and so it snowballs. And that's that's again why we're going at these three month
sprints. It's not that we haven't got some longer term things to do. So that might be in, you know the end of the third Sprint because it's going to take nine months, not three months, but every three months we're demonstrating the progress, the traction, the real change on the ground that is happening and we're championing that cause it's it's so easy to talk about things. There's a lot of talking shops. It's so easy to define the
problem just a bit better. It's very hard to get some stuff done and importantly, to get it done at scale. And that's really what we're focusing on. And again, that sense of momentum, it feeds itself, Emma, doesn't it? Yeah. And if any if anyone's going to get stuff done, it's going to be a project manager, isn't it? So that's the best people for
the job. I mean I thank you, we've, you know, brilliant insight and real things that people can think about and get hold of. And thank you so much. Was were there any kind of lost thoughts you wanted to to pass on? I mean, I feel like we've covered everything. I think it just comes back to that, you know, just get started. Just get started. If you don't know what to do, do something and keep talking. Stay connected, Ask for help.
There's a whole community here willing to willing to reach out and help. Thank you. Thanks again to Joe for joining us and thank you for listening to the APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at a PM podcast at Think publishing.co.uk. This podcast has been brought to you by APM, The Chartered Body
for the project profession. For more information on APM, visit apm.org.uk.