Welcome to the APM podcast, brought to you by the childhood body for the project profession. My name is Emma Devita, editor of Project Journal and your host. Today's episode was recorded live at APM's Women in Project Management conference held in London in September, which brought together over 700 project professionals of all
career levels. Equality, diversity and inclusion were high on the agenda and for this episode we chose to focus on a session entitled Inclusive Leaders Empower Inclusive Workplaces. This discussion brought together 4 project professionals to discuss what inclusivity means to them. Being an inclusive leader, they said, can strengthen relationships with colleagues by creating a more supportive and collaborative workplace culture.
But is it easier said than done? And how do you bring people with you? The panel chair was Elizabeth Nolan, head of legal project management at SACAS, and she was joined by three guests. Roslyn Unegu is delivery director of non infrastructure at Thames Water. She has LED transformational service improvement and delivery programmes in construction for over 23 years within the public,
private and voluntary sectors. Sarah Utterson is a project manager in the defence and engineering industry. She began as a graduate Project manager in 2020 and has recently transitioned into a Deputy Programme Manager role at Babcock International Group. Ali Parrish is a childhood project professional who is currently Deputy Director of the Central Delivery Unit at the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, where she leads the project delivery
function and profession. We pick up the session with the panel discussing their top three things that make an inclusive workplace before moving on to an audience Q&A. Inclusive Employers, which is auk organisation offering membership, training and consultancy for employers, defines an inclusive workplace as the culture in which the mix of people can come to work, feel comfortable and confident to be themselves, and work in a way that suits them and delivers
your business or service needs. Inclusion will ensure that everyone feels valued and importantly, adds value. So we asked our panel to share the top three things that make an inclusive workplace. And I'm going to ask everyone interns to explain a little bit more about them. So Sarah, I'm going to start with you. These are your top three inclusive language, psychological safety and getting to know your team and inclusive team and building social activities.
So talk us through those what inclusive language? What? What do you mean by that? So when talk about inclusive language, I want to think about what words they use firmly at work or infirmly with their colleagues while having lunch breaks, tea breaks, whatever it might be. And think about some of the power that some of the words you might use are. And if you're not sure, educate yourselves.
One thing I'm really passionate about is that I think, especially in my generation when I grew up, words were thrown around that are like insulting and can offend people quite significantly depending on what words you're using.
So drawing attention to words that can affect people with disabilities, such as using the words spastic moron, saying things like always crippled by that joke are actually really exclusionary because you're, you're not understanding the full intent and exclusionary effect that has on people Also using words that are misused. So things like crazy OCD, being mental, those are harmful to those who suffer from mental health issues and I want people to think about that.
Whilst you may see it as informal or you are using a more formal setting, be aware of those people around you and the fact that those words are really exclusionary. And if you're not aware of maybe some of the language you are using, think about educating yourself. There are so many articles out there on Forbes, Harvard Business Review around exclusionary terminology and even things. But things like sex is where is
bossy, sassy, feisty. Think about the effect that might have on somebody if you are using, even if it's not intended or not directly in in someone, think about the sort of unintended constant that might have and I want to just put in there. Use of pronouns is also really important. Lots of companies that will allow you to add your pronouns to the end of your e-mail signature use it help destigmatize these of correct pronouns. And if you're not sure what
someone's pronouns are, ask. Educate yourself. Make sure you are being inclusive in the language you're using. OK, thank you. And that probably then leads us quite nicely into the second key key thing for you. So psychological safety and getting to know your team, how can how does that sure isn't it
for you? I think there's a really simple way to get to know your team and understand what people do out, sort of work, their hobbies, you know what their favourite food is, do they like start work early in the morning, finish
work late at night. But I think with that, there is a much deeper level which we all need to be aware of is people need to be able to come to you as colleagues, leaders, managers, mentors, whatever you might be to people in your team or your project to ask for inclusive adjustments to their
working environment. And if you're not creating that psychologically safe environment where people do not feel safe to come and tell you maybe that they don't feel included or they've seen or experienced exclusive behaviour, you need to be able to address as well. So I think I would just say 2
levels or get to know your team. We get some who you're working with, but also make sure the environment you're working within a psychological safe to open up conversations around exclusion and what people may need. OK. And so leading on then from from that into into team, what does inclusive team building look like? So this is something that I think the more recent thing for me that I've actually really guilt you off. I will suggest to my team, let's
go to the pub after work. And it only hit me recently that not everyone drinks, not everyone wants to go to the pub after work. I will suggest going to a brew dog pub quiz and people might hate brew dog pub quiz. And that even though may seem really silly, it's actually really exclusionary behaviour because you're going to a very specific place and very specific night of the week to do a very
specific activity. And people may not feel comfortable saying, well, I don't drink or I don't like pub quizzies or Tuesday doesn't work for me. So all people think about is when you are suggesting social activities, team building or even just suggesting something after work or for your project team to get to know them better, make sure that what you're suggesting is inclusive of
everybody. Like Irene mentioned in her speech this morning, you know, golf away days, my company has a golf away day, most people don't play golf. So I think thinking about those kind of things and whilst maybe they don't seem exclusive, they can be and they are excluding groups of people to taking part. OK, wonderful. Thank you, Joslyn. Here's your three. Let's let's go through them. So an environmental trust, What does that look like? Well, I first of all, it's
around the word inclusivity. It's an environment where everyone feels comfortable about being able to speak. And it's an environment where people feel that their thoughts and the diversity of it is encouraged and it is appreciated and valued. And that's really what it means to to thrive in an inclusive workplace. What we don't want to have is groupthink. And when leaders, leaders should strive really to avoid having their thoughts, their views permeate through the, the, the
teams that they lead. And so having team members be comfortable enough to share their views, even if they're dissenting in an environment where people think, you know, my thoughts are valued, appreciated and understood. And more than anything seen for me, that creates and fosters an environment of trust. OK. And how does that also then interplay with an accountability? It's to do with being able to receive and accept feedback. The wonderful thing about trust
is comfort. You are comfortable in an environment where you feel and you know that your thoughts, ideas are both diverse and welcomed. And that means as leaders and as team members, you take accountability for the things that you say. And so the accountability element is fundamental in trying and fostering that environment where inclusivity is welcome.
So the terminal accountability in this context means as an individual you are responsible for the things and the words that you use and your actions, and it is about being able to do that without feeling a threat or feeling discomfort in being able to do so. OK. And it's part of that consideration of privilege. It is, it is the, the, the whole idea of privilege is about understanding that in a group environment, some people have
more. And as leaders, is it really important for you to understand that the diversity of the teams that you lead means that some people will have more in terms of power and influence, and some people feel that they have less. And understanding that means that as a leader, you are very, very acutely aware that you need to ensure that those who have more do not abuse those who have less, and those who have less do not feel abused. And that for me, what's the that
inclusivity? OK, Ali, let's move on to yours then. So how do you know what makes you resilient and, well, how, how do you figure that out? I think I've been on a really long journey with this and I think it matters in every profession actually that we understand what our triggers are for things that make us feel stressed for make us feel unwell and and learn over time, which I have. We honest.
I have been on a very long journey to know what, you know, daily habits I need to have in place when I can feel myself getting into a difficult position and also the support networks that I need to have in place as well. But it really matters in delivery because it's hard. Delivery is hard and it doesn't matter. There will never, a lot of people in my team will say, actually there must be a place when you know, I'll be totally
on top of my work life balance. You'll never be on top of your work life balance. Actually, the important thing is to really know how you want you as an individual want to make that work for you. And when you know that it's not operating. Because if we're not in a great place, it means that actually we don't feel, we don't respond to the pressures of the delivery environment effectively. I mean, it's the right thing to do anyway, but we don't respond
to the environment effectively. But also we're not in a place to bring ideas, to make great decisions, to move at pace. So being healthy and well is really critical to just, you know, the basic functioning of a team and caring for people around us, but also actually what makes our work successful. OK, so it's important to to look after ourselves and then obviously your your second point then to be kind and considerate
to others as well. Yeah, I think this is, this is 1 when it boils down to it in, you know, over the years we've worked with a huge number of different people with different needs and different experiences and different backgrounds. And in the end, actually, I, I've kind of come to the conclusion, whilst the words sound very floated, being kind in particular in a corporate and demanding environment is really
challenging. And actually taking time to get to know all your colleagues, not just the ones that you most closely relate to, and understanding their individual needs, supporting and that understanding what's going on in their lives as far as they want to share that is, is really important in helping everyone be able to feel included.
And picking up Sarah's point about how do you find the way to ensure you have, you know, team things that work for everybody rather than just kind of a certain set of preferences. But the reverse side of that is that sometimes we all come across it. There are a whole host of moments where we think other people's behaviours are not kind and considerate and disrespectful or not the behaviours that we expect in work. And it's very easy for that to then kind of boil a system of
like of antagonism. And actually what I found again over time is to think, hold on, what is going on? You have to believe in the decency of most human beings. What is going on to them that is making them behave that way. And although you never really know what's happening unless you really know someone very well, there's generally a sense of fear or frustration or kind of angst happening or something going on in someone's personal life that is enabling them to
behave. And your response is different if you try and put put yourself in their position even when you think they're being unreasonable. And is that part of being a really good manager do you think then? I think, well, I think it relates particularly outside it. You know, it's much harder outside of your team environment to have that conversation. You just have to put yourself in other shoes. But I do think the inclusion comes down it's it's really
important to know the team. It's really important that everybody feels like you've got each other's backs, whether as a line manager or as a as a kind of just a team member, and that everyone feels safe and empowered to come to work and to be able to bring their best selves. But, but again, the flip side of that is it also means sometimes having difficult conversations and that, you know, we're not
always always at our best. Sometimes our behaviours, sometimes the quality of our work isn't as great. And actually you have to say it because otherwise and you have to have a conversation about it because otherwise those things fester and other people realise and recognise that we're not necessarily treating everybody fairly as well. So these conversations are hard, but you kind of have to strap your shoes on and kind of get get on with it.
And just the last thing I would say in the reverse of that is that as a leader, you know, quite often you don't get it right. And actually fessing up to that or taking the feedback, create an environment where people go,
do you know what? I just didn't like the way that you did that and saying, you know, apologising, being open about that I think is not, again, not just the right thing to do, but buys a huge amount of credibility and and trust from colleagues and from team members as well. Absolutely no, I completely agree with that. I think you, you, you've got to own it and let people know that. So I'm, I'm conscious of time and I really want to get to the
question. So I'll I'll, I'll, I'll go fairly quickly through, through mine. So for me, people feeling seen and heard. So this is just, this is about everyone. This is not just about the people at the top feeling like they're the ones who can set the tone. You know, if you were at the the session, the keynote first thing this morning from Natalie, you will have heard this as well.
You know, everyone needs to be considered when decisions are made and feel like they have been considered, you know, what's the impact going to be on them. And this applies to to positive and negative things. So you know, when the business does well, everyone benefits, but make sure everyone benefits, not just the people at the top. You know, when the business does badly, though, everyone bears
the bears the burden of that. Obviously those with the broadest shoulders are going to are going to bear more of it, but everyone needs to feel it because if it's really inclusive, it cuts it comes to everyone. Everyone should have a voice. Everyone should have a way of sharing their views. You know, whether, and that will look different in every single company depending on the size, the, the, the sort of the workplace.
So whether that's a manager, whether that's, you know, some, some anonymous feedback things that you can put in. But everyone should feel that they have a route by which they can provide some feedback, they can provide some input into, into the workplace that they're in. The second one for me is really, really important. So communication, everything's, yeah, we must communicate. We must communicate. That shouldn't just be broadcasting. Comprehension is the goal of
communication. So it's not about you just giving out a message. It's about how people receive that message. So it's, it should communication should be open, it should be regular, but you also need to know that it's being heard and it's being understood. And that's where you come back to the feedback loop and you need to understand what's going on. You know, so it's not just a news post on an intranet. It's not just a firm wide e-mail.
It's managers checking in with their teams, it's colleagues checking in with each other. You know, did you see this? How do you feel about it? What do we, what do we think is this, is this working for us? What do we think the impacts are going to be? Because the people sending out those communications may just simply may not have thought of it. And it's not because they don't care, they just don't know. It's not on their radar. So it that that's really important.
And finally then differences being recognised and celebrated. So, you know, having a one team ethos, it might sound like a really inclusive idea, but actually it completely fails to recognise that people are fundamentally different. You know, everyone has got different wants and needs and true inclusivity should, should recognise that and it should embrace it to try and get the best out of everyone rather than trying to make everyone fit into one thing.
So there you go. That's that's what that those are our kind of high level views about what we think in terms of what inclusive workplaces look like and how we can make them. We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the project profession. When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support
your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed, society benefits. So we're going to start with a really key topic. We're going to start with Women's Health. So we had a couple of questions that that have that have come through on that. These these questions have been seen in advance. So we've had a a bit of an opportunity to think about these.
The the ones where the panellists are really going to be on their toes are the ones that are coming through in the room. But OK, so we're going to start with a question in relation to, to, to, to menstruation. OK. So 50% of the population, women, 50% of the of the population are likely to unless they're likely to because I appreciate it's not everyone experience physical and and emotional impacts of menstruation whilst they're in their working lives. You can't get away from it.
It's becoming more talked about more these days. It's wonderful that people are prepared to, to, to talk about it. We had a question that said the fact that it is becoming more open to discussion, does that is that going to put on virus? If I go into into a situation and I talk about the fact that I suffer from from a condition or I really suffer when I get my period, is that going to put someone off? Do I need to just keep that quiet? Ali, I'm looking at you.
So I'm going to start with you. What what do you think? Share your wisdom. Well, I have I I was really grateful to the people who asked ask these questions because it made me think that it's still not a topic that we talk about enough in the workplace, even though it happens to an awful lot of us. I think the first thing I would say is that going back to my earlier point, I think it's really important to know your own body and your own own cycle and your own health. It's not just about
menstruation. It's not just about how we bleed. Women's Health is a factor throughout the entirety of our careers and it affects us all at different, different times. So you can kind of progress on to whether you have having a period, whether you want to be having a period, have you not having one because you're trying to have a baby, whereas your period stopped. Are you on the process of them stopping?
You know, it goes on for a really long time before you get into all the other kind of health challenges that that women face. So actually really understanding your body and knowing how to manage it yourself and what that means in terms of your workplace I think is important. And then being able to have just really sensible, honest conversations about it. Those can be private, but they
can also be public as well. And I think the thing that I have observed as I have become more ancient in times, I never thought it mattered to talk about it and I certainly didn't want to. But when I've been in positions where not so much to do with periods but to do with breastfeeding and trying to express in a highly male dominated workplace and having miscarriages, I had no choice apart from to talk about it. And what I found that was
amazing about it, two things. First of all, it gave everyone else permission to talk about it, which was brilliant. And secondly, the other 50% of the population also all know women who were all going through the same thing too. So they completely understand as well and actually were unbelievably supportive and helpful. And I think it gave me for the first time the conversation actually, this is just something that we should just keep an open
dialogue about. Not everybody feels brave, but if you do feel brave enough to do it, it creates a better space for others and actually changes come off the back of it. And some amazing people in my. Apartment through their lived experience, both men and women through their own lived experiences have changed policies about menstruation, about menopause and about baby loss in the last kind of 18
months. But they kind of had to put themselves out there, but then we all followed and backed them up as well. And and I think that was really positive. So it's a bit of a tangent from your question, but it's because it. It. Kind of just. Appreciate that. Absolutely no. And I think that and that, and that helps because it, it covers off a, a couple of other things, I think. Ross, I wonder if I can ask you then in relation to one of the other questions that we received.
So for those people who, who, who do want to be a bit more private about it, but still need to talk to their, their, their, their managers, you know, what, as a, as a manager, what should the manager be doing in those circumstances? Because they don't necessarily want to then, you know, change a policy because it's of of one that. But how, how can you as a manager support someone? You know, what sort of thing should you be doing if someone comes to you and says, I'm having these issues?
A lot of us work in environments where you find that your managers are men. So when you when you're when you're going through something particularly sensitive, whether it is to do with baby loss or it is something to do with periods or you're having, for those of you who are either perimenopausal or menopausal, you have brain fog and something happens and you're and you're in a very difficult situation.
What you would like to happen is for your manager to have empathy, doesn't have to be going through the same thing, but you would expect an understanding and good leaders, and I emphasise good leadership, good leaders care and they pay attention. And the question should really be how can I help? That should be the fundamental question that you asked. It's how can I help? I don't understand what you're going through for obvious reasons, but how can I help not? Well, that's unfortunate.
When you're going back to work, you know, that's not really the answer you want to want to get. And, and so you would expect that there is a, a significant level of sensitivity to wanting privacy because look, if I were a bloke and I had a prostate exam happening next day, I don't want everyone to know about it. So I wouldn't expect you to advertise that either.
So just being able to have empathy, putting yourself in the other's shoes and knowing this is a particularly delicate situation and the best way to handle it is with empathy and sympathy. Thank you. I think that's, that's, that's a really example of your answer. So I'm OK. Well, look, I'm going to move on now to we've, we've had a series of, of questions and we've had some come through on the app on this as well. So an, a topic I'm going to call female stereotyping.
You know, you walk into a room and someone asks you to, to get them a coffee, you sit down and, and the expectation is if you're the only woman in the room that you're going to be taking the notes, that sort of thing. So we've had a few questions around it and I think so constantly. Someone said they're they're in a meeting and the the meeting is opened with morning gents. You know, what should you make it an issue? What you know, how do you feel
about that? If you do want to raise it, how do you do it? What do you think, Sarah? So I think this has been nicely what I told about language in the in the first bit. If it something that bothers you and you, it makes you feel uncomfortable, I never think raise it. I have beyond receiving end of lots of high dense emails, lots of high dense meetings. And I think the way to tackle it is to is to raise it. And I think there's two ways to do that.
There's the address it there and then you dress it in the room just in the e-mail. You see it when it happens or if it's I see a repeat of defence. If you've not raised it the first time, it keeps happening and you become more uncomfortable because you've not raised it the first time and it's happened again. Think about it. Think about what you want to do. Think about maybe a plan. Speak to people. I think we've spoken already a lot this morning around allyship.
Speak someone you trust and say, oh, I'm thinking about uncomfortable about this. Keep in these emails and say hi gents, It's all men on the e-mail and then me makes you feel uncomfortable and and speak to people because I guarantee that someone else will have either been in the receiving end of something similar or a similar e-mail chain from somebody else, if not a meeting. So you're comfortable raise it yourself, but if not, use allies, these people you trust.
And I would obviously don't be afraid to raise it, escalate it because these things are important. And I think we're part of an inclusive workplace is if things are important to you and you feel uncomfortable with things that are being said or done, you should feel psychologically safe enough to raise it. And if you don't, that's where you need to go and talk to people like HR or escalate it to your managers. Excellent.
Thank you. Well, this and we've had A and the top voted question that we've had coming on the app, I think really fits well within within this sort of thing as well. So have you ever called anyone out for exclusionary behaviours? And if so, how did it go and what did you learn? Annie, I'll start with you. Yeah, I. Felt like that was going to be the answer. Again, I didn't used to because I didn't either I didn't notice or I didn't know that it was
required. And I think picking U on Sarah's point, I will quite often if I think something is is not really right, I will. I would generally do it, have a quiet word with the relationships that I have, but I also try and make sure that across A-Team, people always think that they can come and say when there is a problem, which relates to all of our management, doesn't it?
And, and you know, across everything that, that you should always be, always feel like there is someone you can go to who will be your ally and a sounding board, regardless of whether they're in your management chain. And quite often I do find people going, I'm just struggling with
this. And, and sometimes it is about having a safe place to be able to have a conversation about why certain behaviours and certain activities are making people feel uncomfortable, that gives them more confidence in the environment. But also sometimes it's also saying, do you want me to have a word? And being the one to do that with a different set of relationships than as well said earlier, a different set of power as well. And, and generally that goes
quite well. I mean, every so often I get told I'm a bit countercultural or a bit chippy, but I kind of would rather be countercultural and chippy and, and like back people to feel safe and comfortable at work. And, and, and, and I think as I get more wrinkly and older, which I've now mentioned twice to you all. So clearly I've got an issue with this.
I kind of I'm realising how much responsibility we have to to back everybody in to make sure that they feel safe and to give a voice when they don't necessarily feel that they've got one themselves. Absolutely no. I, I, I, I, I'd certainly echo that. First of all, I see no wrinkles, but let me just be clear about that. But yeah, I, I, I work in law.
We have a lot of junior associates, you know, and there will be some people who, who, who will they, they won't want to put their hand up. I know I didn't when I was a junior lawyer. I never wanted to put my hand up. But I was very fortunate that I had people around me that would speak up on my behalf and would usually come and ask me first and say, I thought, I've spotted this. Do you want me to do something about it? But that was amazing for me because it, it meant for me that I have.
Then as I've gone through my career, I've started doing that for other people. I've started spotting things and going, he looked a little bit uncomfortable in that situation. Do you want to tell me about why that was? And is there something I can do about it? Because they won't always want you to. But if they do want you to, as you say you can, you've like more likely to have those relationships.
You can do something about it. And, but even even in a senior position, you know, there's always someone else up there, you know, what do you do about that? Because have you got an example for? Us. Oh gosh, I've got many. Pick one. I'll, I'll, I'll pick one. It's, it's an interesting one because I have found this example is about introversion actually. And it's a, it's a, it's a pet pet peeve of mine.
There was a perception that people are introverted, are either quite quiet because they're incompetent, or they're quiet because they are, they lack skill. And so I have found listening to people over the years that people tend to use this, this language or be dismissive of them in meetings. And I, I make a special point because I know that that a lot of introverts are quiet because they're busy analysing and playing back what they've, what
they've heard. And so knowing that I always say hi, Do you have, I know you've probably been thinking about this. Any thoughts and about but put it in a way that gives them the comfort to be able to speak up and air their views. And, and usually, and I'm no,
no, no wallflower. I will go back and say to someone who's actually been on feasibly crass about the comments and say you may want to think about these types of courses because I think being able to understand the environment you're working and being able to pay attention is really important. And if you want to be a leader, I'll leave it hanging. I. Like that silence, silence is a very, very powerful tool. Not just the no comment answers the the actual silence as well.
OK, I think so looking then at yeah, again, being a lot of us work and particularly in in project management because it tends to to a lot of the the roles are in in still very male dominated environment. So how there's a question we've got. How do you navigate different team cultures as part of different projects that are still very male culture dominated to ensure your projects are inclusive? So what are your thoughts on, on
that? How do you, how do you where you're where there's still, as you were saying, you know, you've got examples where you're the only female in, in the role. You know, how do you navigate that to make sure that you're not just becoming one of the boys? Yeah, that's super difficult because I think that is something I'm guilty of. So where I work we have 17 delivery teams, 400 engineers, majority which are men, our whole X Co, our men, all the group managers are men.
So these day I'm in meetings with just men and I, I am very guilty of going on lines of Chatmouth sport time of golf, rugby, anything I can think of going to what I did at the pub at the weekend to try and relate to them. And I think when you're going to these different teams and you're trying to build relationships is, is don't force it.
I think we spoke about imposter syndrome this morning and I think don't force it. If that is not a genuine hobby for you and that's when you genuinely do at the weekend, don't try to fill the gap. I think one thing we if we were really guilty of is filling the silence. And I think the ones with that you can then sort of mould into that more masculine, I guess themes, but don't fill the gap.
You don't feel like you have to go and talk about your weekend if you don't want to. Don't think you have to go in and you know, know the latest football knowledge or whatever it might be just because they're all men. Go in and feel comfortable that you can just be there. Don't think you have to keep speaking. Don't think you have to ask everyone a question. Just own your space. You're in the room for a reason. Whatever you may be there for, you may be a different project,
different teams. Own it. You should be there. Don't try and train yourself just because of the audience you're speaking to. Their stakeholder management obviously, which is a massive thing and obviously that's when you struggle with. That can be explored through obviously qualifications and experience and training, but that doesn't have to be changing yourself absolutely for the project team or environment that you're. Working in I think own your
place is is is is is fantastic. Now that's that's that's definitely something and I think you bring a different skill set as well. You you know, if you if you are, you know, in the the the sole female in a in a room. But I think whatever, whatever you're, you're, you're bringing, as you say, you just, you just need to, to be confident in
that. Ali, in terms of then within the, the teams, how if you're, if you're seeing some, you know, a, a, a bit of a disconnect there or, or, or something, how, how do you manage it? How do you try and make sure that those teams that there is a bit more balance across the team? How can you make that work? That's a really interesting question. I think it, I mean, it charms with both Sarah and and Ross's
points. I think there's quite as a team leader, I think there's something really important about helping people identify what their kind of core purpose and mission is within each team and to feel comfortable with that and to particularly notice when people are stepping outside, what is a natural comfort zone for who they are.
Because as you were saying, Sarah, actually acting, owning, owning you and acting with integrity is really critical for building credibility as well as just being the right thing for yourself. So I think support identifying when people are sort of stepping outline because they think they might need to fit in more and and enabling them to feel supporting them to feel more confident in their own space, I
think is important. But I also think there are, as Roz was saying, there are also, there is also a responsibility, say if you aren't chairing a meeting or you are leading a team to shake it up so that the common and established behaviours are not the ones that necessarily dominate a conversation. So putting people into different ways of operating and changing the dynamic of how you do a workshop or how you do a meeting structure.
So that what is, you know, tends to be the case of, you know, this is how we get things done to put my alpha, you know, behaviours on. We'll do it in a different way and we'll spend 5 minutes thinking and writing stuff down so that you just change the dynamic of what the expected
norm is as well. And again, that's the right thing to do for inclusivity, but it's also makes you think differently in terms of projects, gets away from that massive risk of groupthink and kind of, you know, collective sense of we're all doing the right thing. You have to break the cycle. And that's another way that, you know, I, I was trying to really think hard about my old colleagues in the university and how they would respond to some
of these conversations. They all would say they're super supportive inclusion. But if you said we're going to change the way we do things because it's more inclusive, they would roll their eyes a little bit behind the scenes. But if you do it because it's a way of making sure that we are managing our stakeholders and delivering our work better, absolutely they'll be behind it and really engaged in the process. So there's ways of playing it
too. Can I just just just just just just one, one thing, one of the challenges that that we find as you go through and just just looking at the audience here, that some of you are slight slightly younger and us. And, and so as you climb in your career, perhaps you're just starting and, and, and you're, you're finding it challenging to be able to raise your voice when you are perhaps the only female
in the room. And then someone says a quest, something, something obviously different, like, you know, making an assumption that you're the one who's actually going to either going to do the admin, make the tea. My, my, my advice to, to in that situation is, is really to own your voice. And even if you are the youngest person in the room, you do have the strength of will to own your voice. It's 2024, though.
I am hoping that people, either from what you've heard today or as you progress in your careers, that you actually have the the strength to say, this is not my job. Actually, if you'd like some tea, that's the kitchen over there. You can help yourself in a very polite way, but make the point. Thank you. We're in the fortunate position where we're, we're, we're on
board with this, right? This is what we're, we're trying to do. We're, we work hopefully within, within companies that are, are encouraging us and empowering us to do this. One of the questions that we've had come in, which I think is a really interesting 1 is how do you deal with a company that promotes inclusivity and diversity doesn't necessarily demonstrate. It. So yeah, what do we do in those circumstances? You're laughing.
So I'm going to start with, I feel that you might have some some gems for us here. What do you do? Well what you don't do first of all is, is be antagonistic and militant about it because that is going to change anyones views. I think you start by by
educating people. If if someone says something to you that is very clearly unsuitable, or if people do a lot of group think and you find that in teams that the leaders views is the dominating 1, then what I would suggest you do in that instance is gradually begin the unfortunately difficult task of having to breakdown those those barriers. And you start that by being an educator in the in the most collaborative way possible. You provide your case.
This is why what you have said is unsuitable in this context. And here's the implication of your actions. And sometimes the reality is businesses never learn anything unless it's hitting the bottom line. So when you find that, you know, for, for in some companies, and it happened in one of mine, my previous ones that is women were leaving and they were leaving in droves. And so the question was, oh, they look, they're all leaving, cry some more. And I'm thinking, well, that is
not a fixed problem. You have to think about why are they leaving? Think about root causes. And that is what good leadership is understanding root causes, because that is how you change things. And that is really what transformation means. Absolutely, Ali, do you want to add anything? Yeah, well, I completely agree with that as well. But what it was also making me think is that going back to the only points, that inclusion is all of our responsibilities as
well. And actually there is something about taking on our own. If you can have a beautiful DNI strategy, but it doesn't feel like it feels like words, well, let's make it a reality. So on a really humble and day-to-day basis, let's ask people about their Eid experiences about Purim, as well as what their plans are for Christmas. You know, that makes a
difference. If there's been big things in the news that affect, you know, particular sections of our communities, well, let's ask how they're actually feeling. What happens when you've got family in Gaza? What happens when when riots about Black Lives matters really effects really kind of triggers kind of long, long standing
challenges in people's life? What happens when your communities are the ones being vilified in local you can ask to that regardless of what leaders are talking about in in society. You can also join a staff network. If there isn't one set one up. And I think there there is quite a lot of response. There is quite a lot you can do that also creates a movement within an organisation.
And often things do happen from top down and you, we all have stories you can see of like the most fantastic visionary leaders, but there aren't that many extraordinary fantastic visionary inclusive leaders. Actually what makes an inclusive organisation is also the daily actions that we take as well. And so I think that there is, I completely agree. I don't want anyone to take away that. I don't think this is a leadership responsibility.
I absolutely do. But an environment where it's just words, I think we can all take take actions as well that that change, the change that environment, change that kind of sense of psychological safety that people feel just on our own shoulders. Absolutely, Yeah, I, I, I
completely agree with that. And I think that was, it was, it was a point I was going to make is that it's, yeah, if, if we don't like something, we, I think it's incumbent on us to say, OK, well, what, what, what am I going to do about it? You know, I, I can sit there and I can complain about the, the, the culture of the organisation and how, how terrible it is, but am I trying to take any steps myself to, to influence change in that or to do something about it?
And I can do that regardless of, of, of, of my stature within the organisation, of my experience of, of, of my role. I need to get allies. I need to get influences. I need to, but I can do something about it.
If I get to the point where do you know what, despite all of my best efforts and those of, of, of, of the people around me, I simply can't, Well, then maybe this isn't the organisation for me. But I think it's incumbent on all of us to, to, as we've said, own our place, own our voice, see what we can do about it. You know, be the change you want to see. It's we, we can do something. And that's, again, it's showing, it's developing those leadership
qualities. It's showing that we shouldn't just rely on our dark overlords to make sure that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. OK, I think again, there's just, there's a, there's another question. It's had an awful lot of, of votes. So I'm going to ask this one as well. And I think it's, it's, it's in a similar sort of vein for, for this. So it's, you know, as, as a parent, so you're offered a lot more flexibility. That's brilliant.
But it only seems to go so far. You know, there's what happens if you know, you can, you can get flexibility as a, as a parent. But if in your circumstances, you don't have childcare, you can give me all the flexibility you want, but I can't necessarily use it. How do, how do we address something like that? That's again, Ali, I'm, I'm just, you're in my line of sight. I'm going to come to you first. Jump in. And then I'll follow up.
Well, you're. Going to stop positions, but this is particularly important for me because I have a four year old so it's it's a difficult one and that and that is the reality. What do we do or what, what, how do we do it? The, the, it's a tricky 1 because there is no clear answer. I think what, what, what I would suggest is again, raising it as a conversation, what can you as an individual do in return? And I think that's, that's what drives the extent of
flexibility. It isn't, yes, we would like more, but I think it's more if I can work from home because I don't have childcare and deliver what I need to, then are you happy with that? But it's it's to think about out-of-the-box solutions to a very thorny problem. And that really is the best way to do it because there is no clear answer. You're going to have to be
innovative in this context. Sarah, I'm going to, I'm going to ask you because I want to know as a, as, as a colleague, if you, you know, how do you feel? Because you were, you were talking earlier on about, you know, psychological safety, understanding your, your, your
team and things. If you know that a colleague is, is struggling with those sort of issues, What, what can, what do you think you can do to, to support, you know, do you feel it's incumbent on you to, to try and support around that or do you do you, is it more of a that feels like a you problem? Yeah, I think it depends on what you're relating to it with is with the person who is struggling, how well you know them well, how much you know about the situation and whether
or not you want to be an ally. I think I guess is one of the things to ask. I mean, it can be things that are really simple is when they are working from home, if that's, you know, when the rest of you are in the office sending them a team's message, giving them a call and seeing
everything that are getting. I think with sort of hybrid working, we can also create exclusionary behaviours whereby you're all in the office, you all don't go and go to a meeting in a room and you don't dial them in or vice versa. You all been dialling on teams and somebody sat in the office on their own because of childcare or caring responsibilities in general. And that makes every people depending on locations and where they are.
I think we all managers first of all, have a responsibility to check up on that person's welfare, well-being, mental health and making sure they're getting support from our employee management perspective. I think his colleagues who've got responsibility as well to check in on the person. Just say there's anything we can do. You know, how are you getting on how you feeling? You know, if you're going to come into this day or Thursday, I'll come in and see you in the office on Thursday.
And you know, being flexible around your own, if you can be flexible around your, you know, I've not got kind of responsibility and I've not got children being flexible. So you can see that person and so that they're not the only person that comes into office on Thursday. You can go in and be with them just to make them feel like they are being seen and hired, even though really need a bit more flexibility. So I think this is a really interesting one. I was really inspired.
Now I was just trying to wrap my brains for the name of the author. There was a woman who used to work for Hillary Clinton when she was Secretary of State, so before she ran for president, and I think she was called Anne Marie Slaughter. And she wrote an article that was really controversial when Sheryl Sandberg was writing all stuff about women need to lean in. And she wrote an article that said why women can't have it
all. And it was really controversial because but she was like flipping head of policy, but for Hillary Clinton. So she was not in AI think, but she was like, my kids are teenagers. And actually I've decided I no longer to stay commuting to Washington. I'm going to go back to be a very high profile Dean in in in at Harvard. I think you'll have to check the details. I'm sorry I didn't practise that bit of the conversation.
But I found that really interesting actually because as I have both come back to work myself as a mum, as I've been a step mum as well and supported lots of other people in their return. So well by going off to work, going off from Matt leave and then coming back from Matt leave. What you realise is that no family is the same. So everybody's needs a different every like, well, these people are doing it like this, so I should be able to do it like this.
It's like no no no, because that's their family and also their individual choices about how they want to live their life and I will. Whilst not accepting. I completely agree with this morning about imposter syndrome. I moved to the civil service because I decided in the end that I still had ambitions to be in senior roles but could not physically myself, both in my health and also the fact that I have an itinerant musician as a husband who's never around.
I could not manage a really demanding job and a little one and be nice and, and like happy with the people that I love. But the civil service offers, really, really promotes job shares, flexible, working right up to the very top levels of government. And I thought, do you know what? I think that's what I need during this time when Ives is at home and she's growing up because the needs of your
children change all the time. But now I'm there, I look at like really senior women in the civil service, which is amazing, who have three children and work, you know, like in these top jobs, I'm like, Oh, I'm so inferior.
But they are making individual choices about how they want to structure their family lives and what their husbands do or what their, you know, as single mums, what like their caring arrangements are and how their family backup is and how many times they, you know, how much of their salary they're prepared to put into childcare or can put into, you know, everyone makes their own choices and you just can't compare and contrast.
You can only do what works for you and your your things and you know, your career ambitions, you know what stimulates you, what makes you happy. You know, how you want to look after and bring up your family. And I think again, you kind of have to dig deep, but just don't try and model anybody else because find your own path. No, I think that's absolutely right. And I think you have to, yeah, look around, see see how others are doing it.
But then exactly that find your own way for, you know, work out what works for you. And seeing I had literally a conversation last week with an associate who's just come back to work for maternity leave, who's who's, as she's transitioning back, she's in the office two days a week and she's sitting at her desk watching people leave at sort of four, half, four to go and pick up their kids and go, Oh God, should I be doing that? Should I be doing that so that I
can go? But then I haven't finished what I'm doing, but then what happens? Oh, and I just had to be say to her, just just breathe. And what one day a week, then you work later and yes, you miss bedtime, but you know what? You get back and you're there for your husband and you spend the time with him and you're not getting back 10 minutes before with your hair on fire, disrupting everything he's put in place, feeling guilty for this, guilty for that. Like you, she's like, I can do
that yes, we can do that. They discuss it, agree it, but absolutely you figure out what works for you and and I think that's that's absolutely right There's. Just one thing I was going to add as well, which I think is also, it's very easy when you when when children are little to think that it lasts forever. It really doesn't. The phases move really quickly, but also the needs change too. So you get a different intensity. And actually teenagers and students almost need more
support. It's more emotional support, more brain power than the physical demanding things of little kids. And that's really important to think through in the arc of of how you work as well. Absolutely right. I am conscious. We've only, we've not got too long left. So we are going to push through the the final kind of topic area that I wanted to to, to cover was inclusion of difference and anxiety because we've had a few questions coming up about
anxiety. So if you've experienced social anxiety at work now, how do you know how to combat it so that it doesn't work, it doesn't impact on your or your work and your and your progression. And I know that you were you were keen to address this one. Yeah, so I think first of all, what I want to say is anxiety is completely normal. Social anxiety is completely normal. And I think if it's something you said from at work, you're
definitely not alone. For those who don't know, know particularly well, I really hate networking. I find the anxiety going to networking events absolutely horrendous. I hate most people I don't know, speaking to them about things that my work, my life, what I do, I find it really uncomfortable. So I don't just think that people don't suffer for a minute, it's just you because that's not the case.
And I think the more you speak to people, you realise that everyone's also from some form of anxiety in work or outside of work. I think the way to combat it is being open about it because I think one thing anxiety is really, really good at, and I serve from anxiety quite bad the outside of work as well is if you don't talk about it, people don't know for that as we all can't help you.
And also anxiety is self deprecating because you keep telling yourself and it keeps going down during a circle. And the minute you put that out there into the ether or the matrix and you say I hate networking and I really don't like it because of the anxiety I get from it. Everyone goes on me too or you're like, oh that's really mad. I was at a networking event last night and it actually went OK. And you start to normalise what
that thought is in your head. And I think combating it at work is speaking to mentors, coaches, managers, colleagues around situations you find that it makes you anxious or triggers you. That could be public speaking. It could be talking to a really particular group of people, or it could be things like networking or or more general anxiety. If you don't feel comfortable speaking to your manager, be a colleague, trusted ally, or alternatively, find a coach, find a mentor.
I mean, you can talk to to work overcome and work through that as an issue. The one thing I found it really has a really practical type is writing it down. And anxiety again is really good at like taking over your negative thoughts, Writing down why you feel anxious about talking at work, getting on the tube, whatever it might be, writing it down and trying to think, why do I feel anxious around it? Why am I anxious?
Why am I not anxious? The fours and against and help rationalise it and be open people at work. Because the chances are you'll say to me on your team and be anxious about this and they'll go, well, God, me too. And then you can go to networking events together. So if you don't tell people, they can't help you and they can't help you make inclusive adjustments at work.
So be open if you can find people you trust, and if there's people at work you don't trust and you suffer from anxiety, there's some people in this room who I'm sure will have suffered from something similar. Reach out to your wider network. Don't interrupt people you work with to help you through any issues you've got. Absolutely, absolutely.
But I think you're understanding what your triggers are, working that out and then being able to yeah, to, to sort of identify them and, and work out ways to, to deal with them. I'm going to finish with just with one final question because I want to finish on, on a, on a positive note. But there's been so much good stuff here. So we talked earlier on about sort of sort of social activities and team building and things. And again, we've heard all about the golf course and what have
you. What's give us, give a, give me one example of a team activity that is not drinking golf or what have you. What's an inclusive team activity will will go down the line. So for, for, for, for us recently at my firm, we had a we had a firm summer party. We did a treasure hunt through London to get to, to the venue. Everyone got split into teams.
Literally just by you walk into the room, you're given a number, you get a team, you've got the instructions, you go on the treasure hunt, you get to the venue. It was, it was very good fun. So that was that was our one Sarah an an inclusive activity that isn't drink or golf. So I think there's no lots of fun workplace activities that are now like out on the High Street.
I want to say that makes sound really old and but things like things called like flight club, there's lots of like games, There's lots of places like Lane seven, I think it's called. It has a range of things like bowling, shuffleboard, all those sort of things. And you can go and pick whatever works for you. Of course, games, some people, especially those who are very uncomfortable with small talk, just put everyone in the in the game room. Those who like loud, vicious games have at it.
Those who like quieter games have at it. Everyone was in just bliss all around it. And that's completely, no completely out-of-the-box and people, everyone enjoyed it. Brilliant. OK, Harry, finish this off. I hate games and quizzes and I'm obviously really bad at the fun super work. I always have to nominate other people because my fun thing is going to work. However, what I think actually is really good is, is picking different things all the time.
So like, we've definitely done treasure hunts, we've definitely done games, we've been to art galleries and forced people to walk around and look at the art whilst having a conversation. We've also done things like sporting activities as well, making sure that those who physically are not able are still able to do it. So if all the time you're thinking of different ways that different people will feel comfortable and different people will stretch themselves, that's
the good thing. But don't ask me to plan anything fun. Fair enough, fair enough. Thanks for listening to this episode of the APM Podcast. To register your interest for next year's Women in Project Management conference, which will return to London on the 2nd of October 2025, please follow the link in the episode description. APM runs more than 200 events every year, ranging from webinars and award ceremonies to day long conferences. To find out Morehead to
apm.org.uk/events. If you want to get in touch with your feedback, suggestions or ideas for topics we should cover, e-mail us at APM Podcast at thinkpublishing.co.uk. Spotify users can also leave us a comment directly within the Spotify app. That's it for this episode. See you next time.