Welcome to the APM. Podcast APM is the childhood body for the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host in this. Podcast I'm speaking to. Suzanne Morland, Vice President of the Global Programme Management Practise at ACOM about how to step up from being a project manager to a programme manager.
Suzanne draws on her vast experience of leading mega projects and shares her behind the scenes lessons from working on some truly mind blowing programmes. If you're thinking of entering the world of programme management or want to hone your skills and learn from the best, then listen on. Hi, Suzanne. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me.
I think a good place to start would be to ask you to tell us a little bit about your career and your experience, specifically going from being a project manager to becoming a programme manager. Sure. Back in too long ago to remember to mention, I was the director of project delivery for a company called Chapter 2 M Hill and I had several project teams who were delivering infrastructure in water, environmental cleanup,
transportation. And I had an opportunity, I was invited to go to the country of Panama to help them figure out how they were going to expand the Panama Canal. And that it's really during that experience that I got the bug. I, I was bitten by what a programme can be, what it offers, what it means to a community, what it means to a country and, and delivering things differently from an
individual project. It's, it really is a, it's such a different opportunity to bring benefits and to, to make something more than just the asset that's being built to provide those opportunities to the community, to the country, to, to the people involved in delivering it. So it's really the kind of big picture that you liked, bringing benefits to society more broadly.
Yes, yes. And, and the challenge that, you know, there's a, a different challenge in, in putting that bigger puzzle together and making sure that you're on a project. And we'll probably talk about this more, but on a project you're really driving cost, scope and schedule and delivering that safely.
And on a programme you are figuring out how to deliver all of those individual scopes within a budget, on time, safely and delivering those with the benefits, with the additional benefits that come from how you put that together. So that obviously that's what you enjoy. It's the complexity and fitting the bits of the puzzle together. Is that what, what aspects of the job do you enjoy the most? Is it figuring out that side of things or is it seeing the
benefits? For me, really it's about figuring out how that's going to happen and then building in the the benefits delivery in a way that makes it integral. So when when the leaders are looking at how things change, how is this going to affect cost and how is this going to affect the schedule? They also asked the question, how is this going to affect our delivery of benefits or our ability to deliver benefits and take that into consideration.
So it's it's built into the whole framework of how you're delivering a programme. Can you tell us a bit more about the Panama expansion programme? When was this? How long ago did you work on this? I went to Panama the first time in 2007 for a year, 18 months it. That was early in the industry of infrastructure programme management, what's also referred to as mega projects. It was when that really became a recognised delivery mechanism. London 2012 was one of the first
programme delivery structures. Panama Canal followed very closely or actually was kind of in parallel at the same time as that can. You give an idea a bit about the programme and how much, what was the scope, what was it worth? And if this is an early mega project, did you follow a framework? Did you create your own framework as you went along or did you borrow from other large projects? Or? I'd be curious because it must have felt like uncharted water. Sorry for the analogy. It's OK.
It's OK. It really did it. It really did feel and actually was unchartered at the time. It was in 2007. And so if you think about 2007 and where we were with technology, it's very different than where we are with technology today. So we went to Panama and it hadn't been, there hadn't been much time between the US Army Corps of Engineers turning the Panama Canal back over to the Panamanians.
The US Army Corps of Engineers have been running the Panama Canal since it had been built and they were, they were turning it over to the Panamanians and the Panamanians wanted to put in a new lock that was large enough. If you think about the the ships, the container ships, up until then, ships had been built to fit the Panama Canal because it was a main shipping channel. They needed to be larger and so
they needed a larger channel. The Panama Canal expansion was the largest earth moving earthworks project of its kind in the history of the world. I'm not sure there's been a larger one. There might have been in Dubai when they were building the islands, but but they moved, they created a lake, created a mountain, they moved that much
earth to build this canal. And it's, it spans from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean parallel to the other canals, but it's larger than the other canals to fit these what are called post Panamax ships. So the other ones were Panamax maximum size to fit through the Panama Canal. And then they have now the larger ships which are called post Panamax that fit the new canal.
So it's a huge programme, you know, even even for a developed and mature programme, if we'd, you know, the UK has by far the most mature programme management structure in the world. But even if we were going into the UK to build this kind of a canal, it would have been a huge undertaking.
But for Panama, they had been working of course on the running the canal, but they hadn't been leading it, they hadn't been owning it, they hadn't been managing it and they wanted to be able to manage their own programmes in the future. So we had as one of the main benefits going in that we would teach the Panamanians how to manage their their own programmes and their own infrastructure in the future. We didn't know. So we were learning and teaching
all at the same time. How successful was the programme? It, it was extremely successful. It was the lowest claims of any major construction project. It was set up and the contracts were, were written, they were
complete and concise. And then everything that was said, you know, it was detailed out in those contracts was followed by the Panamanians. So we put the structures in place for them to make sure that they understood every single day at every single construction site what was going on and they documented it. And think about it was before there was anything like Bluetooth, there was anything like connectivity. You couldn't get documents electronically from the canal up to the office.
We had to have runners out picking up the the daily logs out from each other construction sites, yes. Did it come in on budget? On time. Well, that's kind of an interesting topic because for a programme of this size, it's impossible to know when you're starting what it's going to cost. And so there's this whole theory that says over time, over
budget, over and over again. But if you measure against the first estimate, you will be over cost and over time because you just don't know enough at that at that point to have that as your as your goal post. So it came in within the budget that was forecast when the contract went out to the EPC contractor with the the additional contingency that was added once we knew all of the factors.
So probably midway into construction, the budget was recast and because we knew enough then, right to say this is what it's actually going to cost. And it's also why claims were so low was because we understood we didn't know enough at the beginning and we put in the structures to to adapt as we went along. What an interesting programme to work on. So that was your first kind of proper programme management experience. How long did you spend on that,
working on that? I was there the first, the first phase that I was there was about 18 months. I left for four or five months, went back and helped set up the controls, the computer construction control system, which I just talked about a minute ago. And I was there, I don't know, eight months a year for that. And I left and I went back again in 2015 for another six months, I think. So you got hooked into programme management then what? What, what did you take away?
If there was one lesson to take away from working on that mega project, what, what would it be? I'm kind of digressing a bit, but this is such an interesting programme to talk to you about. It's if you, if you, if you could give one kind of piece of advice or one lesson that you took away from that personally, what what would that be? Well, I guess it's two things.
One that one is it was my first experience really outside of my home culture and it really was eye opening learning that people are people wherever, wherever you meet them, they're just people. They have the same hopes and dreams and you know, they're concerned about their families and and getting through the day and coming to work and doing a good job. So that was, you know, that was very interesting and and personally insightful for me.
The other thing is kind of related is that programmes are about people. And really the difference between a programme and a project is a project is focused on driving schedule and budget to, you know, safely deliver a scope within budget and and to the schedule.
And a programme is really about how you organise people, the people who work on it, the stakeholders, the funders, the sponsors, how you get all of those people to work together, to share a common vision and to to understand and feel like and to know that they are part of something bigger and, and to really engage with people in that way. What have you learned about achieving that? The people side of things to get everyone to work together to a
common vision and goal. That it starts with leaders and I think that's that's a very common well known management tenant is or leadership tenant, organisational tenant is that you have to have leaders aligned and engaged and and championing the kind of culture that that you want and that you need. How do you make that happen in practise? That's that's easy. Easier said than done, I imagine. It is the, the, the way we do it and the way that I've done it on programmes and you know, it's
trial and error. You, you work, work one way and then something works if something works better than something else. But it really is about, about transparency. It's about being confident and humble. It's about, you know, starting out with the, the client organisations leader, programme leader and their leadership organisation and making sure that they are aligned and with that, that we are aligned with
what they are hoping to achieve. So we come in as the client organisation, as a, as supporting the client organisation. We're the, the consultant and we need to understand what, what their vision is, what it is they're trying to achieve. And then we need to help them get there. So it's it's really how we start that relationship, build that relationship and nurture that relationship over time that makes all the difference. How do you set off on the right foot?
How do you start a programme as a programme manager? The best it can be. Well, I think there are three things that need to happen. First, the first week that we show up, we have a meeting with the client where we talk about this is what was what we wrote in the proposal and hear the client tell us what that meant to them.
So that we make sure that we have a common understanding of what we said we were going to do, what they think we said we were going to do. And then we talked about what needs to happen in the next 6090 days to make sure that we hold these two organisations or three organisations together so that we now have one programme organisation. And what what is that going to take? What does that look like? Who are we going to work with on
the clients organisation? Who are the key stakeholders we need to bring into these conversations? And then we talked about these are the kinds of tools that we need. We need to know who's making decisions, who has authority to make decisions, what kind of regulations, boundary, what we can do. Like what are the laws, what are the rules, where are the funds coming from and what can we spend that money on so that as leaders we are all very clear about how this organisation will
run. And then we start working with the different parts of the clients organisation, like their finance group will work with our controls group to talk about how what needs to be done, who's doing what, what are the handoffs, what does that work look like? And, and it's really a methodical step through of putting up, putting those two organisations, we call it zippering those organisations together. And it really is a structured approach that if you miss those
steps, you will do that. At some point, those relationships have to exist, those people have to work together. So it'll either be done in this, you know, in this upfront and and structured manner, or it'll be done trying to clear up chaos later on. OK, that's such a good point. The words that are coming through to me is you talk about communication, relationships,
talking. So my, my next question was, how does your role change when you leap from being a project manager to becoming a programme manager? And it seems evident to me that it's about, it's about the people, like you said, it's about. Is that the biggest difference really? The biggest difference is about the relationships with people and about your focus. So again, as a project manager you are really focused on delivering a scope of work.
You need to have good people skills as a project manager because you've got all of those people who are delivering for you or with you as a programme manager. It's a whole different field of play. You've got stakeholders at every level, the people who are funding the programme, the people who have authorised the programme, the people who own the assets, the the the supply chain, the people working on the programme.
You've got all of those people that you need to engage with and bring them into a common understanding of the vision and what needs to be achieved. And as a project manager, very often you are focused on what is, what is the, what's happening the next day, the next week on that schedule. As a programme manager, you are focused on how are we progressing for that ultimate outcome.
And of course, you look at the schedule, you look at the cost, you pay attention to those things, but it's with an eye to are they taking us to that vision? We're APM, the only charter membership organisation for the project profession. When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support
your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed, society benefits. As a programme leader, what kind of skills do you need to cultivate? I, I think the biggest one is strategic thinking. You need to be able to see that broader field of play and you need to be able to challenge, you know, things that are coming in and understand where pieces
fit into the larger puzzle. Or if they don't fit, understand how to move them off and out, you know, so they're not distracting the, the work that needs to happen as a, as a project manager, there's a lot more doing a lot more, you know, roll up your sleeves and get in there and make sure that, that things have been ordered and that, you know, you've got the right people showing up on the job site.
And, and, and you know, the, the safety tailgate have, has, has been conducted and, and that you've, you know, gotten the permits. As a programme manager, you need to be an extremely effective delegator. You need to make sure that your team knows what needs to be done, the outcomes that you're trying to achieve. And then you need to get out of the way.
You need to coach, cheerlead, you know, motivate, but really you're, you're responsible for building and, and facilitating and fostering the culture that keeps that work moving forward, keeps people engaged and keeps you all focused on that ultimate outcome and the benefits that come with it. Is that quite hard to do? If you've come from that very detailed kind of project manager role, then being able to delegate often perhaps with people you've never worked with
before? Have you got any advice around that? Did you find that hard, or was that something that came to you naturally? I don't think I ever really thought about it. I just, I was so moved by the potential that that programmes bring that I, you know, it, for me, it felt like coming home. I see some people really struggle with, with giving up control. I see some people not comfortable counselling clients, You know, the, the, the difference, you know. Project manager is given a scope
of work. A programme manager helps figure out what that what the scopes of work need to be and how those different projects can best be put together and defined and what those scopes of work are going to be. And then how to bring people in, you know, who are the right people to do that work? Is it local contractors?
Is it a big EPC firm? How is this, you know, something in between those two and that so that the difference between the certainty of being given a scope and the ambiguity of I know we need to do this, how do we get it done? People do struggle with that. Is that something you can pick up, I guess as your confidence improves or is that just the way you are as an individual? You either like it or you don't relish it. Well, I, I think there's some of
both. You can pick it up and you will get more confident as you begin making decisions and understanding that, you know, I, I often say to people, the sun is still going to rise in the East. It's just, you know, it's not going to change the outcome of your life. It's, you know, it's make a decision. If you need to change the
decision, you can, right. So there, there are very few decisions that, that you, you can't come back from, but the ability to make a decision, the ability and the humility to say, looks like we need to re, you know, reassess that decision are, are two big pieces. And some people just are not confident enough to make those decisions and and then be able to say I think we need to change course. What advice would you give around decision making?
Would you consult lots of people, go I think about it, come back or how do you approach it? I think it depends on the decision. You know, there are some decisions that you need to make now that you know, if you've got some supplies coming in and the port has gone on strike, what do you do? You need to make that decision right now. You've got longer lead decisions where you can take in more information and you can assess situations and look at your options, consult a lot of people.
The thing is you set those structures up ahead of time so you're not trying to figure out how to make decisions. You've got the frameworks, you know who you're consulting on which just different decisions. We call that a racy, right? Who's responsible, who's accountable, who gets consulted and who just gets told. So you're not going around getting everyone's opinion. There are people who are who, you know, you need to consult on particular decisions.
And then there are people you just let them know this is the decision and things need to get implemented. But I think those are the things that that's, you know, setting up those structures, especially for somebody who's new into being a programme manager, it's critical so that you have a structure and a framework and support for what you need to do. You don't need to figure it out for every different decision.
What are the most common mistakes do you think new programme managers make and how do you go about avoiding them in my? Experience The first biggest mistake new programme managers make is they get right into delivery, they get a programme assignment and they start doing what they know. Let's get those projects, let's get, you know, let's get those projects moving and well, the programme is clearly a bunch of projects. A programme is an organisation to deliver those projects.
So you've got to build that organisation and you have to take the time to build those relationships with the client, with the client's organisation. Set the framework in place. You can't pull a a plan to manage a programme from something you've done before and say it's going to work here because they're all different. You can take the framework and say this is how we structure it, but you can't pull the plan
forward. I wondered if you are preparing to become a programme manager or you're early on in your career as a programme manager. How much thought should you give to leadership about your style, your approach? Is it worthwhile thinking about what kind of leader you want to be before you embark on a role like this?
And what kind of leader are you? I think that emotional maturity is a critical factor and you can only be emotionally mature if you understand yourself and you can only understand yourself if you do that that work. You read about leadership, make decisions, conscious decisions about how you want to lead and then practise those. You are not born a leader. Leadership is learned. You know, you're, you're, you're born with whatever you know, human firing you've got.
But leadership is a, is a learned skill and how you lead people is something that you learn. And the ability to, to get people to follow you is probably the most critical skill of a programme manager. And so to answer your question, yes, I think somebody who's new in their career or anybody deciding they want to be a programme manager needs to examine what kind of programme manager do I want to be? What kind of programmes do I want to lead? Do I want to enjoy this or do I
want to strong arm people? And I can tell you that in today's world, strong arm doesn't work in a programme. What does work? What makes for the best
programme managers? The, the secret to success really is being able to get people to follow you, being able to articulate a vision in a way that people see themselves in it, in a way that draws people into that, that bigger thing that the bigger reason we're doing whatever you're doing in as a programme rather than as individual projects, because it is bigger than any of the individual projects or
individual people. You know, we, we talk about leaving a legacy, but it's the, the legacy for each of the individual people, what they're going to tell their friends, their family, their, their grandchildren about what they did in their lives. This is going to be one of those stories. Well, that's pretty powerful really, to think about it in that way. Is that how you think about the work that you do? Absolutely. Which programmes have stuck with
you personally the most? The Panama Canal, what it did for the Panamanians and, and for programme management for the people of Spain and Italy, because they were the, that's where the contractors came from and where a lot of the major equipment was designed and built. So it's, you know, it's a story of a world really growing up and doing great things that changed the world, right?
I mean, if you look at the nature of shipping and the movement of commodities, I mean, just so many aspects of that. One programme touched so many lives and changed, changed so many things. Another programme that I talked about quite a bit is the FIFA World Cup in Qatar. And when we got there, Qatar was a Doha in Qatar was a small city and now it's a metropolis and it's beautiful. And a lot of that was the master plan for FIFA World Cup.
And how all of the different engineering companies, construction companies, designers from around the world came together to talk to figure out how they were going to put together all of the infrastructure, bridges, roads, the airport, you know, the the buildings, the facilities, How all of that came together and changed the country of Qatar.
And how we see the people who had lived in a way that that none of us, a lot of us had not experienced because Qatar had been really a country on its own prior to all of that involvement. In fact, on some huge programmes, what are the pieces of advice that you wish someone had given you when you were starting out? Well, I, I wish I'd had more to read.
I recommend that people read case studies, read London 2012 as a phenomenal library of, of learning about how they put things together and and the thought process. I would, I would read a lot about major programmes. I would network with, learn from experienced programme managers.
You're going to need those relationships when things get tough and you don't have, you know, if, if you're out there and you don't have somebody to talk to about, you know, this thing looks like it's about to fall apart, you know, what is it I'm missing? What am I not seeing? Having other experienced programme managers kind of in your in your bullpen really really makes a difference. And is can that can that be informal as much as formal?
Yes, I, I think, I, I think, you know, we, we build these formal structures to support informal relationships. I think, you know, relationships between people are pretty much how you, how you have that relationship. So you're going to find people that you trust who you can talk to. I think if you're having problem on a programme, you're not going to put it on a on a chat board, you're going to, you're going to contact a an individual or a few individuals and say what have you seen?
What am I missing and help me think through this? Are people willing to help in general? Always this is something that I've learned and it's I, I think it's, I think it's a truism for people in general, but for programme directors especially, people love to tell their story. And programme directors have a, they have, they have solved some of the world's greatest challenges or been on the forefront as these challenges are being solved and being mad
and, and overcome. And and they are to a person always interested in providing an opinion and helping think through things and very generous as a community. What's the hardest bit about being a programme manager? The people. And then I'll ask you, what's the best fit? What's the best fit? Are you going to say the people is the people? Yeah, you know, the the technical aspects of a programme
are often fascinating. Like how are you going to build the stadiums quickly enough and, and in the right places that you can get people around to see as many games as you know, all of that I think is fascinating, but is solvable given the technology and and the the state of human development.
Now the really fascinating part is how do you bring people together to work together, to be a part of something bigger, to really want to achieve that vision and and deliver those outcomes to have an effect and an impact on the world and the way programmes are are meant to. Since you first became a programme manager, So what 20 years ago? How has programme management changed over that those two decades, roughly? The way it's changed is clients
have matured. Clients understand a lot more what they're looking for and what they need. I think another way that it's changed, you know, 2025 years ago programme management was new and it didn't have the overtime over budget over and over again shadow hanging over it, which is, you know, I already said I, I believe is, is unfair and, and unrealistic way to look at programmes.
But as a, as we move forward with programme management, there are things that we understand now we didn't know then, like the importance of taking the time to set up the organisation that will deliver the programme. You know, it's a, it's a separate being a separate entity and it needs to be put together
correctly. The opportunity to bring the ALT, the entire supply chain and all of the stakeholders into the programme so that they are helping deliver and also receiving benefit from the programme so that it's not a projects are often tension between the project and the contractor. You know, it's all change orders and you know, daily drive to scope and schedule and and really it's about managing change on programmes. It's a whole different idea about managing change.
It's not about, you know, I'm going to get as much for me as I can. I'm going to hold back from you as much as I can. It's really a more win win. Integrating all of those parties into that vision to be part of what's being delivered. I think that's how it's changed. Suzanne, it's been absolutely so interesting speaking to you and getting behind the scenes of Panama programme and also FIFA and Qatar. So that's been brilliant speaking to you this. Has been fun, Thank you.
Thanks again to Suzanne for joining us and to you for listening to the APM. Podcast, I hope you'll. Agree that Suzanne has given a riveting insight into what it means to be a great programme manager, and I certainly found it hugely inspiring to hear from someone who clearly loves their job. Anyway, don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and review us wherever.
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