Welcome to the IPM podcast. APM is the childhood body for the project profession. Hi, I'm Emma divita. The editor of project apm's quarterly journal and this our crisis talk season of podcasts. I'll be asking project professionals to share their stories of managing and pivoting their projects as the world has turned upside down around them. So thanks for joining me in this episode. We'll be meeting Sonia Sharma, head of planning and corporate.
Direct management office at British broadcaster channel for which has become for many of us. One of the most important ways to entertain ourselves at home in lockdown. Its programming has had to radically alter from covering planned sporting events. Like the now Persephone Tokyo Paralympics to DIY programs made by celebrities in their own homes like Grace and Perry's Art Club behind the scenes at the
broadcaster forced change. Has gone much deeper than just altering program schedules as Sonia. Explain to me. She describes her job as doing more with less using budget resources and time in the most effective way for the business Channel. 4 is an organization of low project management maturity. And her main responsibilities are to develop an embed an enterprise-wide project management office. The tricky part.
She says is working in a culture where people don't want to be constrained by process and bureaucracy. They need to be allowed to have freedom to be creative. Find imbalances, the art, and how to introduce new project management. Sepsis key. I spoke to Sonia from her home in the middle of May and we pick up the conversation with her. She explains. What's her role at Channel 4 covers. Hi Sonia. Thanks for joining us.
First he could you give us an outline of your role and the pmo's work at Channel 4. Yeah, sure. Great to be here. Some, my role at Channel 4 is, I run the Enterprise p.m. I started the role beginning of last year prior to that. I was sort of spending two years or so setting up the technology. Pmo.
So that kind of led into the role that I'm doing now, which pretty much Is what I was doing at technology putting in place processes and procedures and governance and rather than just the technology department looking at this across the whole organization. So I mean Channel 4 is a very low maturity organization from a sort of project point of view.
So I guess the interesting part of the role is about how I actually put those Features and processes in and just to give a bit of background Channel 4 has what 800 800 employees. Yes. We have around 800 employees. How many project managers or how big is the pmo? Because I know you said it's low maturity. But could you give us a bit background? Yeah. So the pmo the Enterprise p.m. I was just myself. So it's I guess what you call. I think I've heard the phrase poo a pmo of one and the
technology pmo. Slightly bigger. It's actually a pot a pmo of to. So there's very few of us to pmo's and I think a lot of that is just to do with the fact that it is a very New Concept for Channel 4. And even project management is a very New Concept. So in terms of number of project managers, we've only really got within technology about 20 or so, and then across the business, a lot less, say a probably about a hand.
You'll probably five or six and most of them are bought in as and when we do big project, so we don't have a pool, a such of project managers, when I came to interview you last year for the cover story for project. In Autumn, 2019. You'd ready-made, massive amount of progress in terms of introducing project management to a broadcaster like Channel 4. So I'm sure you were very pleased with the progress. You are making. And then obviously, in March
comes the coronavirus crisis. I was wondering if you could cast your mind back to the end of March and the beginning of lockdown. Could you talk us through what those early weeks were like for you and how that lockdown affected your work? And the pmo's work as she feels for quite long time ago. It's only really nine. Exon and mean prior to that, I guess just to put into context.
So I've been doing, as you say some work building up the Enterprise, pmo building up the portfolio for less than a year or so, and then we actually appointed a transformation director to help us with the big transformation program across the organization. So, we just started that the beginning of February and then as you say, The covid hit we left Channel 4. Think a week before the actual official look down. And I think the first couple of
weeks we really quite chaotic. So people weren't really sure what to do. So there was a sort of period of do. We keep doing what we were doing before or you know, how do we adjust? So, I think it took about a week or so to get into some sorts of some form of order. And actually, what we did is use the Confirmation director and her experience of working with crisis situations and very, very quickly within a week. Actually. We set up some covid-19
governance. So we got even running now for work streams, people Finance procurement and Tekken projects, and we kick them off within a week twice a week. So eight calls in a week for an hour with a, quite a clear agenda in terms of, what we Were trying to achieve within each one and who was going to be involved in that and then that governance started running and then alongside that there was some reporting to the exec that went up to help and enable them
with their decision-making. So I think that was really key at that time of Crisis. So there was a lot of work that was being done. Then I think the other thing we had to do was really look at. Then our priorities and our portfolio and and start to think about how do we actually Out to manage that, can you tell me what projects you are working at
the time. So that's interesting to find out about the transformation program that you are embarking on. But perhaps for those who don't know much about it. When I spoke to you, you had Super X projects. I remember. But could you tell it give us a bit of background about the transformation that channel for was undertaking before this started and what's happened to those projects if you're able to tell us. So the Super X Project was still sore. Of living and breathing.
If you like they were all big projects from a strategic point of view, from a financial point of view and were being followed through what I was then doing sort of moving to the next phase of things. As part of the transformation is
then looking at everything else. So we'd started then categorizing all of the portfolio as that's correct, but then we have platinum, gold, bronze, silver, and also looking at What we called an execution Engine with with okay, if we're putting these all these projects into a hopper.
How do we manage that? What stage gate process is do we put in place Waters of the business cases that we need to look at and and put a lot more sort of controls and processes in place to make that happen and the other parts of the transformation were around strategy. So that's been quite a big missing part for us at Channel 4 and am quite What fundamental for the work that we do in the pmo? So there was a big bit of work as part of the transformation to start to build that and connect
that with the execution engine. So it was that was the strategy, the Nations and regions strategy, that involve channel for relocating, some of its HQ to lead and the creative hubs in Glasgow and Bristol, that was part of it. So, I think we're really looking at longer term as well. We're looking at where do we actually see ourselves in kind of ten years time? So as a business, we already sort of knew be pre covid. The we had to make some fundamental changes in how we are operating.
People were not watching Leah TV, you know, the viewing Figures were not as good as what we usually had and, you know, from a sort of competition point of view for the next exam has and we weren't getting the young views that we needed. So, they needed to be sort of a shift in that way. So a lot of that work was about, what directions do we go in and starting to think about what are the actual options and what are the actual possibilities? So that's kind of what that was.
I think Nations and regions was pretty much, I guess I guess closed off in a way. We had our leads building sort of in the middle of being opened. It actually was one of the projects that got stopped. What's happening to that. The moment I guess all work has just been paused on it. Yeah, so as I was part of the sort of the prioritization exercise, what we had to do is really look at everything that was on the table.
So as I mentioned although C / X projects and one of them was the The Majestic one of them, you know, such as was a number of other things as well. And then we just had to make a really clear call based on business continuity and everything else. So What are the key things that need to keep on going to keep our business running and what
are the other thing? So we actually built, what we call the prioritization ladder, to do that, to provide some sort of logic, and, and justification for that. So, that sort of started with number one being no cash savings meant that, we've already made commitments, number two, being mandatory stuff. So there might be that actually because a legal reason for carrying on with this project.
And then we look at sort of strong business cases and anything that, you know, would give a good return on investment and then for was strategic capability. So we're we're looking to the Future focused and putting projects in to be ready to manage those priorities. And then discretionary was the last one. So actually what we did is said anything that's mandatory or no cash. Saving so bucket, sort of one and two we keep doing and anything else stops.
And sort of the Majestic project was was not in the one or two. It was more of a strong business case. So it made sense to kind of do that. And then, then we have to look at sort of the, the rest of the stuff and, and kind of understand how we're going to manage all of that ongoing. This will happen quite fast. I imagine those Kind of early weeks of the crisis. Was it a lot about making decisions quickly. What was the team working like together?
Because this is an unusual time. And I've been very impressed by the amount of collaboration Focus kind of determination that organizations have shown. Did it. Did you find that that everyone understood quickly? What needed to be done? Because certainly it sounds as though, there were lots of extra processes and Systems and governance that hadn't existed. Before that you had to put in place quickly. How easy was it to pull that off. It was actually quite amazing.
How quickly we did that. I think the governance really helped, because that got people into the right frame of mind that actually, we've got to take quick action. We've got to do what's necessary and the Cadence of having it sort of twice a week, meant that we were really looking. Being for results quite quickly. And I think everyone was sort of, in a bit of a mindset to do what's necessary.
So, in my role, sort of changed a lot at that point to help coordinate, all of this and understand all the other acts, but expert, that, you know, usually wouldn't be really getting involved in. So we think it was quite interesting. How quickly did that?
But as you say, the pace of work was very, very different to what people were normally sort of working out what they were used to. And then, On top of that, you've got all the challenges about doing it virtually, and all the challenges that people have at home with children, schooling dependence or whatever else. It might be. So it was actually quite amazing with all of that going on. How quickly we sort of managed to get into action mode.
What would you say? Has been the biggest effects of the crisis for Channel 4. I know Channel 4 has had to deal with the cancellation of sporting events, not least the Tokyo Paralympics, which have been passed. Into next year, so I imagine that's had a big effect on Advertising revenues and the financial side of things as a business where publicly owned and privately funded through ad revenues. So as you say our most fundamental effect is on our is financially.
So we really trying to do whatever's necessary to maintain our financial position. So I think that's really been. Number one, Focus. As for everyone.
But then on the content side as you say, we've had quite a number of the big events the paralympic, some of the sporting events that Formula 1 cancelled, which has then meant that we've lost a lot of Revenue. But also we've had to then change the schedule and I think the it's quite interesting because there's a lot of doing more with less that's has had to happen and in terms of production as well cut to be
more creative. Then they were even before so the creatives have got even more creative. So things like the step show we had to actually launch it in a very different way or decided to launch in a very different way to what we were originally anticipating to do.
So, we had Steph in her house filming from her home and and then yeah, I think a lot of the shows now, you probably say that they're quite low budget, but really quite interesting in terms of the concept and what we're trying to do and a lot The factual stuff has gone gone down really well, actually, which kind of things because I was about to say, I'm a massive fan of the Grayson Perry Art Club as a public sector broadcasting. We sort of got part of our remit to make sure people are kept
really well informed. And I think a lot of the the covid sort of information around what's going on and even our news broadcasts have really grown in popularity as well. So people look to us to find out what's really happening. So I think that's been really positive. So actually from a viewing figures point of view. We've been doing really really well, but unfortunately, it doesn't always translate into revenue for us.
Yeah. So hence your focus as an organization and cost savings absolutely. Now that kind of early crisis management phase is over. I get the impression that everyone now, within businesses needing to move towards a steady estate as we begin to unlock. Can you tell me how things are now at Channel 4 for you, what your priorities are and what's top of your agenda? Now? We had what we called our crisis management phase. Where did you say?
We looked at sort of opportunities and savings and we stopped what was necessary. It's about how do we bring all that back? And obviously it's not starting to come back yet, but there will be a point when it does. And it's I guess the first thing is really about, what are the indicators. How do we know when we start bringing these things back? What are the things that we need to look out for my boss? Always jokes.
It's like when McDonald's is open then, you know, it's a sign but it is things like that, you know, that we need to look for. So and then when we do that it My role is really about, okay, when that starts to happen. How do we make sure that we've got the controls in place to maintain what we've already done. So I sort of feel like, we've a bit like what everyone's doing at home, you know, we've got a
lot of fat. So we've been a bit of a machine kind of doing lots of workouts and we've got to a place where we doubt very very lean and now it's about maintaining it. So, how do we do that? And make sure we've got sort of all the controls in place, but we don't want to be too heavy about it. So it needs to still be simple
and getting that balance, right? I think is probably the most difficult thing but because we've actually I think it has been a really good opportunity for the me and for the pmo because we've had to use a lot of the information that we had. And we've actually got to a point where we've got a lot more information than we had before, but it's He's now about managing that and making sure that we don't lose sight of what we have already done. What information information
about where projects are right. Now, that kind of thing. Yeah, exactly exactly that. So, so through the exercise of stopping starting prioritizing, we've actually gathered a lot more information about what's going on. Who owns them where they are in the cycle and a and for a few of them that wanted to continue. Business cases as well. So this is quite revolutionary for us to start to get people to
think in that way. So I think that's been really good, but it's about that sort of slow, bring back and and really sort of knowing and managing that those next steps. I think the other bit that is really important. I think is probably the biggest priorities, the communication piece. Everyone's obviously, working from home at the moment and keeping everyone. An informed about what's going on, unless you're involved in it. You probably don't know.
So, there's a lot of people that still kind of feel like it's still business as usual some that are totally unaware. That we've actually got a situation on. I guess it's a bit like, old the tele Zone and we're showing programs must be. All right. I think there's a bit of sort of making sure that, you know, so that communication is constant. And, you know, there are sort of no surprises if you like in terms of where we are.
And what's going to Next and then also, in terms of the the work that we're doing on controls, making sure that people know what to expect when perhaps they want to bring back their project. Perhaps it want to start something new that. Actually we're in a different world now and to do that, you are going to have to do things differently. Do you feel as though they've been some positives for the pmo that have come through? This crisis? Not least, I guess getting
people to Formalize stuff more. So, there's better process that you talked about people needing to create business cases for projects, which previously Channel 4 wasn't really doing. And if so, is there a need for you to get people to understand that? It isn't just a temporary thing that it's just not just for covid-19, but that it's going to be a permanent state of being after this. Yeah, absolutely. And it's one of my sort of biggest fears. I think the In terms of
positives, yet. The pmos definitely recognized as a valuable resource, which wasn't the case before. There was a lot of what do you do? And I think now that having been through the situation where we've had a lot of the information that we needed to and being able to act on it quite quickly because the pmo was in place that's been recognized. So I think that's been a real big positive for us.
And then, because now, I guess, as I mentioned before, we've cut a lot of the fat out and we're in this, Place where we're very lean and we want to maintain that. Again, the leadership, and the exact understand the need for control, and the fact that, you know, the pmo will be the team that sort of needs to put in place those controls and, and, and help to make sure that there are dear to. So, I think from that point of view, the pmo is definitely more
recognized and valued. And as I mentioned before, I think another positive is that the information that's now available, which wasn't People before I think the other sort of positive is really around remote working previously that was not accepted by all departments and some people would be like a working working from home. You definitely not working.
Where's now I think when we do eventually go back there is going to be a lot more flexible working on offer and I think, you know, having had to move so quickly into the suit new world. It is going to be more accepted by those people that Previously didn't understand how that could work. But I guess going back to your point in terms of that sort of fear of moving into that next phase.
I think it's really interesting because I always think about with moved so fast and people have just done it because they have had to really, but I always worry about. Well, do they really know why we need to continue doing these things? And when we then back into steady state then will they continue to do them? Because if they don't understand that big picture, Then they haven't really got that understanding of why they're
doing what they're doing. So, I think that's a really important message and I think that that sort of something we have to manage as the pmo in terms of people not going or being able to go back to their old ways. And that's a lot of communications support. And I think also how we balance the the process is to keep them really simple and effective. I wanted to pick up on communication because I know certainly that at Channel 4,
you're dealing with people. For the large part who kind of creative they don't necessarily like being rule-bound and they're probably unfamiliar with project management terms. And I know you've been successful in speaking to people in a way they understand, and how are you communicating the pmos aims and needs to the rest of the organization in a way that people get, I don't think they really need to know that
it's the pmo. It's more about the business and and what we're doing is based on strategy of the business. So what we need to do as a pmo is translate that strategy into what they're doing on a day-to-day basis. And I think that's where we come in as those connectors and I think that's where people then start to see why what they're doing is important and we don't have that connection yet, unfortunately, because we didn't manage to start doing that
strategy work. Mentioned at the beginning, but I think that is really the key of, you know, making sure that people that don't really get the pmo still do what we need them to do. And that's mainly based on the fact that they understand why, then why they're doing what they're doing. How are you communicating in this virtual world? Is it mostly Zoom calls? How's it working? What's working? Well for you and your colleagues at the moment.
So we use Skype and we have a lot of I sort of called. So as mentioned with the governance, we've got those on a substandard bi-weekly Cadence and I think that works because that makes sure that we're talking about the same things. Then we have Team calls that been Puttin on a regular basis and I have a daily catch up with that with the team as of 9:00 every day, and I think it's really useful having those in because that just means that you've got a little bit of
informal catch-up time. But also then you've got the formal sort of okay. Is where we need to get stuff done time as well. But I do really miss the, the coffee chat really do miss, you know, being around people with it is really hard. I think that the hardest thing is, I guess we're now in the transition phase starting to build some of those processes or rebuild, some of those
processes. And I feel like I'm sort of locked up in a little room, trying to do that on my own, whereas it would have been, you know, a lot of other people in the room with, you know, flip charts and pens and lots of Of conversation and really sort of seeing the whites people's eyes. When you say something that they really don't get, and I think it's, you know, you can try and do some of that virtually, but
it's really hard. I think that's that's probably one of the hardest things is, when you're sort of really designing and looking at ideas and trying to bring people into that. What have been the biggest challenges for you personally? Trying to do your work in lockdown. I think it's probably people again, I guess I From a corporate environment. So I'm quite used to quite a fast pace of working where is channel for the majority of people that benefit quite a long
time and not. And as we've moved into covid, we've had to get people that are not used to working at that pace. Working at that place very, very quickly. And that's put a lot of pressure on them because then as I mentioned earlier, they've got obviously the their own issues or challenges at home or whatever is going on and it's just really, really, really Hard. So I've had, then I've sort of become a bit of an Agony On, in a way where people have been
going. Oh, I really can't release this. And I'm just because, I guess you're sort of that Center Point in terms of trying to get people to do what they need to do, and, you know, to another place. You're also that person they talk to when they're really feeling really stressed and they can't, they really can't keep up. So there's a, there's a bit of that which is a bit of challenge, which I don't mind doing at all. I love doing that talking to people.
But it's then, having that time, then to do the work because you're spending a lot of time on calls like that. So, I think that's been quite tough. Have you been working very long hours? Yes, I have. I have. So, I think the first couple of weeks were long, long, long days and weekends just to get things set up and running pretty much chain to my little room and my little desk most of the day. So I'm really, it's really bad. I do have to, you know, make a
conscious. This effort of getting up and going for a walk and doing that. But but yeah, it is really easy to do that, though, isn't it? I think, and I think it's quite nice to actually do this this podcast because it's got me to sort of sit back a little bit and reflect because you're such a day in day out, fire fighting and just trying to get stuff done, but you're never really sitting down and going. Okay. What did I actually get from this? What did I learn from this?
So, this is quite a nice exercise to talk to you about it and it and it takes me away from that day. Help. Well, that's that's something to here. I was going to ask you what you think the most important important lessons have been for you so far for me. I think responding fast when you're in a crisis is something that you really do have to do, we think and we managed to do that.
I think that was really good and actually adding order or some logic into the chaos that you're in is really, really helpful. So I was having our prioritization ladder. The and and helping people to sort of go. Okay, I can see why that you know that needs to happen or can
see why that doesn't happen. So I think the logic side of things is important to, I think something that I was thinking about is that actually people were there people change resistant but considered think they are anymore because this think I think people do what they need to do.
If they know why and they don't really have any other options are just going to do it. So I think that's a really good lesson as a pmo because When you're actually designing processes and trying to sort of move people into a direction, it goes back to that why? And be really clear about that. Why to them? And also I guess with the process side of things, not being, not given them too many options. So there is really only one rule. I think that's a good lesson
that I've learned through this. I think the other one is really just to be ready. There's something I've some hurts. Somebody say some time ago is that yes, you should run project. Act in a way that no one's going to be coming in tomorrow.
I mean, currently we run them in a way that everyone's going to be coming in. But if you run it on a way that no one's coming in tomorrow, then you sort of able to be at a point in time where you can stop something and it's all packaged up and ready to be picked up when you're ready to pick it up. And I think that's a really great lessons for pmo's and project managers to try as much as possible to keep things in a state where they can, Left and picked up in a month or
whatever. However, my, whatever the Cadence is, whatever time scales are, that sounds like a nice place to be a, you in that place. No, definitely not. Yeah, I think a lot of our projects are not in that place. I think some of the work that we need to do now is about where we're picking up those projects, which I think we literally just cut them off. So, In Italy, we weren't working in that way.
So what we need to do is last sort of start sort of packaging, the backup and tying that bow on where we need to or lifting them back up, dusting them off and seeing where we what we need to do with them. So some of them might be okay actually with furloughed the resource or it was a contract resource working on them. So now we need to find out what's the best way of doing it. Do we need to bring that resource back on or is there someone within our sort of
permanent resource? That can take something on to help us and I think is about will so challenging what we left on the Shelf as well. So sometimes it might be well actually we can do that project but we might need to do it slightly differently. To what we've said we were going to do and it might be the I don't know, you change the scope, you actually change how you're going to do things. So a good example that we've got is the mentoring.
So we were going to do some stuff around mentoring prior to covid but that was all sort of centered around at all. So we sort of picked it up and is it off and said actually it's a good time to do something now because people do need some help and guidance, but we're not going to do with the tool. We're going to do it sort of in a more manual way. So I think thinking differently about some of those projects is
really really important. My final question is about the rest of the year and trying to plan for the next 6 months, which is just I guess various scenarios of uncertainty. But how are you trying to kind of Them or what work might look like for the next six months. Is it a case of simultaneously planning for different scenarios? Or do you feel as though this is going to be the new normal for
the rest of 2020? This year is definitely very different what we expected and who knows what the rest of the year is going to hold. There's just going to be and I think is going to remain the same for the rest of the year. So many unanswered questions. So it's really difficult to say, I think the only only thing we can do is sort of be ready for the what ifs and the eventualities. So as much as possible, you know, get our project sort of
ready for that. Look at our portfolio and start to think about the K. If we were to bring things back in, how would we do that? What are the sort of priorities that we need to bring back in? And and and what's the sort of order perhaps that we need to do that in? What logic do we use for that? And I think there's something about this sort of strategy. If you as well, so, going back to our overall strategy and going. Okay, based on where we are. Now, where could we be heading
and and then based on that? What should we be doing to support that? So I think a lot of it that's go back to the business priorities, and being really business focused. So that whatever the business decides to do. We can be prepared to support that either by providing the information to help with. Decisions to support that, or by sort of moving in that direction with them. Well, that just leaves the most important question. I wanted to ask you, which is,
do you get any time to watch TV? And would you would you recommend any channel for programs to project managers out there? I spent a lot of time watching the channel 4 news at which I think is great. My kids love the friday-night dinners and in between as I think that that Sort of stuff is great. I think at this time you need to laugh. You need something that's going to sort of, really get you through this. And I think some of those the comedies that we've got up up there, a great.
So, yeah, I think keep watching channel. 4. Listen. Thank you so much for taking time to speak to us. I know you're very busy and I think project management Community out. There will be so interested in hearing what you what your experience has been and what lessons you right pass on to others. So thank you again, for your time. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you really glad to do this been good for me. As I said great to be able to
have the time to think. Thanks again to Sonia for joining us, and to you for listening to this episode of apm's Crisis, talk to podcast. Watch out for our next Crisis. Talks episode, where we meet Hannah Gledhill, senior project manager at luxury chocolate maker Hotel. Shockula. This podcast has been brought to you by APM the chartered bodies. The project profession for more information on they p.m. Visit a p.m. Books all W UK.