When Anxiety Comes Back

into it. My guest today is Drew lyns Alatta. And how I found out about Drew is you know, before I started this podcast, I was researching other anxiety podcasts out there, and you know, putting a curse on everyone who had an anxiety podcast so that mine could be the only one out there that didn't work. However, um, just kidding, But Drew's is great, and he does a solo podcast most lee. He will have a guest occasionally. I should know because I'm going to be a guest

on his in the upcoming weeks. But his solo podcast is great. It's informative, it's concise, there are different themes every week, and I thought, oh god, I'm so glad that my podcast is not a solo podcast because his just kicks ass, I can't even compete, so but I

didn't know him or anything about him. And then when I interviewed um Joshua Fletcher, the therapist from the UK, he mentioned off air that he knew Drew, and so that was enough of a validation for me, and so I probably went about getting Drew on the podcast, which is great because we both live in the same city, we both kind of have the same time available, so I worked out great. But what I wanted to talk to Drew specifically about and what I think the overarching

theme of this episode is when anxiety comes back. Right. I always liken the notion of anxiety quote coming back as the scary thing in a horror movie. Right, everybody has killed the shark, exercise, the ghosts, shot the zombies, whatever, and there's that sense of peace, but that foreboding peace at the end of a horror movie if you know enough to know, well, there's obviously going to be a sequel, and of course the thing is going to come back.

Now if we can only look at our anxiety that way, sort of, my analogies are terrible, but I'm going to embrace that. I think a lot of people we'll have about of anxiety or panic, and it goes away either on its own, or they do some things, or the circumstance changes, and then it quote comes back because maybe the circumstances changed again and there's something else going on.

I don't know, a worldwide pandemic, being on the verge of World War, you know those kind of things, or maybe a job situation changed, maybe there's stress, or maybe there's no reason. I think that's what throws people the most, is the no reason come back. And so my biggest message to people is again, I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a professor.

I'm not a researcher. But just the way that it helps me as someone who has experienced anxiety for decades is that we don't need to think of it as oh my god, if this chronic thing is never going away, you in worder to go into a negative hit about it. But if there's a realistic thing of yo, yeah it could come back, and you know if it does, I have the tools to handle it. I didn't do anything wrong. It just came back. I don't know why. I don't

even need to know why. I mean, it could be circumstantial, it could be just I don't know, just kind of holding it like that. But mostly when I hear from people, even before I started this podcast, but when I would talk about anxiety and social media or in my comedy act, people would always say to me I had anxiety. I did some things. It went away, and then it came back. And because it came back, it's almost like they don't do anything about it because they think we'll forget it.

This is this isn't fixable, this is terminal, to put it in a weird way, and they see it almost as a failing on their part or an unluckiness or oh my god, I must have it so bad. But there's no point in getting rid of it. It's gonna keep coming back. Maybe there's a little disappointment that seeps in where you think, well, why would I try to get rid of it again? It's just going to come back. And I think everybody's looking at it incorrectly. The way I look at it is sometimes I think of you know,

anxieties as there. It's sort of like it's kind of just in your system, if that makes sense. And sometimes it's dormant and sometimes it's back, sometimes it's quiet, sometimes it's allowed, or it's not necessarily that anxiety came back. But the notion that you it's weird because anxiety is something we've control over UM once it hits us, but

we don't always have control over it happening. So it's it's hard to put it this way, but we see anxiety is something we have control over in the sense of if we get rid of it, we have now mastered it never coming back. And that's not quite how it works. We can control it in the moment through breathing and various cognitive behavior therapies that we do with our thoughts UM, and we can control it to a

certain degree. Rights everyone is on a different spectrum of anxiety or anxiety disorder, but in general there are things we can do where we can at least feel a sense of control. We can help to calm it back down UM or even help alleviate it, or work through situations that used to scare us driving on the highway, getting on an aeroplane, you know, being in a crowded elevator.

Whatever it is for you, But I think for me, the biggest through line to everything is always the signs of almost this lack of self esteem or beating ourselves up. You know, I feel like people almost embrace when anxiety comes back. Great, you know, here's another opportunity to beat myself up, another thing I failed up. You know, we

fall into that. So what I love about Drew's story is that his anxiety came back and and he'll he'll tell this in his own words, but just to give you the headlines, Drew had his first panic attack right when he was out of college. He had never had any kind of anxiety or panic. It really through him. He thought he was dying. You know the story. It's probably happened to you. He found a book that really

helped him. It was a book by the Australian author Clear Weeks, and the book was called Passed Through Panic Um. The book has different names depending on what country it's published in. But it really helped him and he learned some tools and then his panic attacks and his anxiety dissipated and was gone for about ten years, and then it came back. And what he realized was, as he says, he didn't work hard enough to get rid of it the first time. And you'll hear us talk about it

in the interview. He doesn't mean to put himself down or disugst that you guys aren't working hard enough. He just means he didn't need it enough. He didn't need the recovery enough two do enough of it that it would make more of a long lasting impact to where he would be okay, if you know, anxiety randomly came back here and there. He really thought it was one and done and over with, and when it came back, something happened to him where he completely forgot and he

can't explain it to this day. He completely forgot about the book, he ad, the tools he used, and just didn't do the work again. So that's sort of the overarching theme of this conversation is the notion of what to do an anxiety comes back, what it means, what it doesn't mean, and just how there is so much hope. And then I'm really inspired by the way Drew really

just doesn't really have anxiety or panic anymore. And and he used to be, you know, completely agoraphobic, not even able to leave his home because it got so bad. So I will stop talking and I will let you listen to this episode. But just a few words about Drew. He's the creator and host of The Anxious Truth, a slightly unorthodox anxiety podcast. It's been going on since. There's

over a million downloads and growing. He also sends out a daily daily This man has really put in the work a daily free newsletter every morning called The Anxious Morning, and you can read a little something about the topic of the day. And it's also of lable of something you can listen to. Having suffered with anxiety, panic disorder, a gore phobia, and depression several times over a twenty year period, Drew got it together once and for all

in two thousand eight. Since then, life has been happy, productive, and quote normal. For the last fifteen years, Drew has been active in the online anxiety community, working to use his experience and understanding to help those that are following down the path he has traveled. His no nonsense approach to these problems, and his willingness to provide direct, actionable advice even when it might not be easy to hear, has established him as a unique voice in the anxiety

recovery community. Drew published two books on anxiety and anxiety recovery. One is called an Anxiety Story and another one called The Anxious Truth. Um, he is an Amazon bestselling author. So let's jump in to my conversation Withdrew when anxiety comes back In that book, you all the journey of Oh my god, I just said journey kill me. Hey when I say that word, I have literally said that myself. Oh my god, I just said vision board kill me. I've had these conversations with people, so I hear you.

I'm gonna have to go. You know what I'm gonna have to do because I keep saying this word. I'm gonna need to pull up the sores dot com someday and write down alternate words. But anyway, for now, your journey of panic attacks and your first panic attack was right after college. And what I love about your description of it is a lot of people will go to the hospital with what they think is a heart attack

and it turns out to be a panic attack. You had a very similar experience to me, and so I'm sure a million other people and I hope a million people are listening, Which is it's not that you thought

you were having a heart attack. You thought it was, as you called it, the precursor to death, right, So you had your d as Asian deep personalization feelings, which listeners I talked about on a previous episode with Josh Fletcher, and those feelings I imagine I haven't died yet, um or maybe what it feels like to go through the tunnel and you feel like any minute you're gonna see the light and you're gonna be on the other side or whatever there is, or you're gonna be dead, and

you just kind of sat there having the panic attack which you didn't know, which you thought was the precursor to death, going I'm dying. I'm not even gonna wake up. My mom goes, why should she watch it? Can you? Can you describe it in your own words? I can tot you do that, and I'm sure most people could could understand this. And it's funny because in that book, that's the part that gets most feedback, like, oh my god, you describe my experience perfectly. But we all share such

a common experience. I was I was actually still in school, is my sophomore year at you b I was home at spring break and like in the house I grew up in, and everything was going great. I got like a four point out great point average, Like who slides into padick disorder and has a four point out like this guy. Right, it was stupid sense, But everything was going really well, and I remember I was just hanging out and I was reading a book. I was in bed and listen to music, and uh, all of a sudden,

I was like that weird. I never you know, it's funny in retrospect. We can talk about this if you want. I did experience the realization and deep personalization when I was little. I just didn't know what it was, and that only hit me a couple of years ago that I realized, Oh, when everybody felt like there was so far away, that's what that was. But anyway, so I was hit with de realization and everything felt weird. But

deep personalization. I felt like it was outside myself. And I mean, you guys can understand if you're listening, you know what that feels like. It was terrifying. I had never experienced that before. And then I immediately became deathly afraid of the sensations I was having, and my heart was pounding and I started sweating and I felt I couldn't breathe, and you you all know what a panic attack feels like, but I didn't know it was a panic attack, and I thought that de realization and that

deep personalization feeling. I truly interpreted it as it's been a good run nineteen years. I did, Okay, I guess I'm out, Like I mean, I'm being I'm joking about it, but I truly, in that moment, that's how I interpreted it. This is what it feels like when you don't oh, I I totally related. I was in high school having that feeling in my French class, and I thought, wow, this is I was kind of death obsessed, you know, um,

kind of an anxious neurotic person. And you know, the music I was listening to certainly didn't help me not think about death all the time. I listened to the Smiths a lot. You're young, and I'm like, you know, I was very dramatic and like writing in my diary all the time about you know, I'd love to sit in a seminary and think these people had lives and

everyone just drives by it. And uh so when I was having my little panic attack, well it wasn't little in my French class, I remember thinking, oh, this is why I'm so obsessed with death. I knew somewhere that I was going to die young and it's happening right now. And it's interesting though that you didn't go wake up your mom. You just thought you might just lay there. And I don't know, well, if I think about that, Like the thought process was so strange, like in each moment,

I'm like, well, this is it. There's no point because this is it, this is where you go, I'm going right now. And then it was well, I didn't, but this is the moment now, and then this is the moment now. And clearly that moment never came because that was many years ago. But that was my interpretation. It wasn't oh my god, I'm having a heart attack or oh my god, I'm having a stroke, or oh my god,

I'm having some sort of embolism. It was literally just I guess this is what it feels like when you die. But it was terrifying. I'm you know, in retrospect, I could talk about it and joke and make make it turn a little bit humorous. It's humorous because of the absurdity of it in the end, which is the nature of panic as it is. But I was this is it, and I remember in the book, I even write the story. So I know you went through it, but like I got myself. I went and splashed water in my face.

I did all the typical, the usual panic attack things that everybody tries to do. I didn't know why I was doing that, but I did them. Um, laid against the cold tile in my bathroom to feel the cold tile, you know, tried bad. And then I kind of limped into the living room and said on the the shitty powder blue bark a lounger, and like then my mom did come out. She heard me up. She's like, how you do? Are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, what the two creative? I made some really crazy decisions in

my life. That was one of the top three. Why would I say, Yo, sure you I'm good. Do you think that there's something deep down that you did know you were okay? I do? I do? There's something about that that I mean, I won't. I don't know. We're never going to truly know that answer. I'm sure, but I had to know because at each moment that passes that you don't die. Look, this is the crux of the lesson of recovery. Anyway, that takes a long time

to learn. But in each moment that like, well I still didn't die, and it still didn't die, and it still didn't die. And I did reach a point maybe an hour or so into that, as it's rising and falling and rising and falling because you know, John Aine will do that, that I realized like, well, maybe I'm not dying. Maybe I don't know what this is and this is terrifying still, but maybe I'm actually not dying

right now. I remember having that realization and it wasn't you long after she came out and asked, you know, you okay, and then she went back to bed, like the worst line of my life, and you just went back to bed, thanks, Mom, like you know it was she didn't know. I didn't say anything. Shay didn't know, but that's I don't know. Maybe some part of me did understand. But I was coming to the realization, well, I'm still not dead. I'm still not dead. I'm still

not dead. So I knew I was wrong. I could tell that I was I was wrong. I still didn't know what it was, though, And so I want to drill down into this just because I've gotten emails from people that are like, you know, you always say on your show, and these experts say panic attacks last time minutes, but mine last an hour. And I know what they're saying, because I've certainly had all day panic attacks. It wasn't just anxiety, um, but literally like you cannot from start

to finish panic for one hour straight. Like like you said, it's it's up and down, it comes and goes right. So for anyone listening that you know wants to say I have them for an hour though, so mine are bad, it's like, well, just you know, look at that, because it's not It's probably not literally no relief for an hour, because that that's just not positively physiologically possible. It doesn't

work that way. And one of the insidious things about panic and anxiety in the irrational fear that comes with it. And by the way, the fear is always real. That's not not fake fear. Don't anybody tell you that it's in your head. The fear is a real there's no doubt about that. But it's irrational because there's no underlying danger beneath it. We just think there is. The one of the insidious things about that situation is it will insist that this is the worst panic attack I've ever had.

How many people have you talked to? Many? And you may have been one of them, And for a while I was one of them. Every panic attack was the worst one ever. This was the worst one. This is the worst one. But in reality, if you get hooked, if you had a bunch of doctors around you and they hooked you up to all kinds of monitoring devices, the physiology but look the same in every single one. The interpretation changes. But yes, it's an undulating wave. There's

that spike and it comes down. It's like you just never come down to zero. So therefore you will say my panic lasts for three days straight because you think it ends when you have zero anxiety. That's not that's not I work. We'll be right back. So when you're sitting there going, well, I'm dying in the most fucked up way, that is a form of acceptance, but it's not real acceptance. Right, So you talked later about you read this book by Claire Weeks. Is it called Passed

Through Panic? That's one version of it. It actually has multiple titles depending on where in the world you live. I had I had it as hope and help for your nerves. Okay, it shows So she's an Australian author. Yeah, she was a physician that works in the nineteen fifties and she b was a kind of a pioneer in describing these problems too late people. So you go through her books and you you learn some some techniques and one of them is acceptance. And so take us through

what true acceptance looks like. Because when I've used this word with people before, you know, it seems like you're saying, well, accept it. You know it's never going to change, And uh, I don't want to accept it, right, I mean, I do use the word acceptance. And she also wrote a lot about floating. You have to float through panic and float and accept and float and accept, and I don't

I don't like those words. I think of Dr Weeks had the benefit of the Internet in her day, she would stop using those words because they create tremendous amounts of confusion. Acceptance does not mean liking it, nor does it mean wanting it. I use the word surrender, and what I actually learned to do after reading Dctor Weeks is and technically I surrendered that surrender. That's surrender. Then that's the word that I like to use. But in the end the it's a practice of literally giving up

the fight, not giving up your quest to recover. It doesn't mean giving up, but in the moment, it means I'm not I'm clearly not successful in fighting this thing when it happens, trying to stop it, manage it, knock it down, manage the symptoms. So I'm just gonna let it come and get me, because it keeps failing to take me down. As much as it threatens to, it never does. So I'm just gonna let it, let it happen.

And the first time I ever did that, and that was after reading Hope and Help for Your Nerves, was sitting the driveway and in the passenger see the car I wrote that wrote out in the book, and I felt it coming. You know what it feels like when that panic is rising and you know what's gonna happen, Like, okay, this is happening now. And I remember thinking, I asked my mother was in the car with me, and ask you, Yeah, of the car, I'm like, go in the house. I

just got to sit here. She was like really, and I'm like yep, And I was like here we go, And I literally just slunk back into the chair and I and I had to make a moment and there was a lot of bravery in that moment. I don't take it that that's important, that's part of it. That said, Okay, you have to come and get me. Now, you have to come and kill me now. And I I just, yeah, that's a hard statement to make. But in the end,

it never does. It never does. It never kills you, it never makes you crazy, It doesn't make you pass out. It unless you have exaggerated vesa of vegal response, which we can talk about that, but most people don't have that. You'd know if you do. But it doesn't do all this horrible things. So I just I just let my body slump back into the seat of this escort. It was a real sweet wide and I let it come

and get me. And I was astounded. It was terrifying, terrifying because that is not what we are designed to do. We are designed to hang on like hot death, to not let bad things happen to us. And I had to do exactly the opposite because Dr Weeks said so in the book. And when I felt it peaque, you know that moment when you start to feel better and you're a superhero, like you know what's going away. The adrenaline kicks in and you're like I can do anything.

You're like the god of thunder at that moment. That came so fast. And when I say so fast, I would say ten minutes, eight to ten minutes maybe maybe, And I remember because I remember looking at the clock on the dashboard and like that ten minutes. A panic is as a lot, but you know how it is. You would go through hours of it, up and down and up and down and up and down. And this was like, holy sh it, like it worked. I got out of a car and I was like moon walking

down the driveway. I was so I was shaking, I was sweating. I was still not good, but I was so freaking happy. That was amazing experience. And never forget it. And I think, yeah, I think it's just dawning on me that that ten minutes of panic that you let completely take you over, then that makes it completely go away.

So you have that adrenaline superhero feeling and then it's really over, like the end of a horror movie when everything is just quiet, you know, and I don't mean one with a sequel where the monster comes back, but the real end. And but if you try to stop it, sometimes you'll get down to an okay enough level so that it's the end of a horror movie. But there's

gonna be a sequel. The monster comes back. And so that is really important that not only does sitting there bravely just letting it take over you, surrendering to it, not only will that help for future panic attacks, but in that moment, it's really going to pretty much kill that one. So you're not having this two hour up and down thing. Except I always say it's to me, the intent is the magic in the recovery process, because if you look at this as this is the way

you stop a panic attack, you're kind of fucked. And I think it's safe to say that because I we don't do not appear to be a friendly, friendly podcast. We do not okay cool um. And I think, honestly, I believe that in my heart, because there will be times when you're not so good at that. So as much as I practiced it over many many years, there were times in the process when I when I failed at that I and I got carried away and I started fighting it again, and then it wouldn't go away.

So The intent that matters so much is I must surrender to this to learn a lesson that will serve me the next time. It is super critical, and so many people do not want to hear that. They just want to know what do I do? What part of my body do I tap? What do I sniff? What do I rub on my wrists? I'm not that guy. No, you know, Drew does not have any essential oils to sell us um. But I do think I love the way you're framing it, which is it's a lesson, it's

you know. I think these can be really motivating things for certain types who want to look at it that way. You know, this is your I don't know this is your I'm trying to say the word journey, but this is what you have to go through to come out the other side. And if you want to look at

it as I'm going through my vision quest here. But I think the thing is, you know, once so if the panic ever comes back in your life, you know, if you slay it for a while and it comes back, I do think the natural response is to go back to fighting it because it just is, uh, you know, it's our normal instinct and it's very hard to learn. I know it sounds crazy, but in this moment you gotta go against your normal instinct to stay alive. But it will it will help you feel like you're going

to stay alive. Your panic is no different than anyone else. No one's ever done of a panic attack. And you know, my thing used to be, well, I'll be the first to one. So I wanted to be the first one to die of anything, right, why not me? I get that,

I understand that. Yeah, and so okay, so now you're you're in your book and just like ten years goes by and you're fine, you know, you're like, I did it, and then it comes back again and you and you forget that you even had this clear week's book, You forget all the stuff you did, and now it comes back and it gets worse. Now you're at the point where you're hitting, uh, monophobia and agoraphobia. Can you tell

us what those things are? I actually had not even been that familiar with monophobia and then realized, oh, well, I've actually experienced it a lot. Yeah, so you write ten years later, now I had that episode, and yeah, I mean it was in a few months. I had pretty much what I felt was like, I'm good, I'm good to go, and I went along with my life and didn't think about it much anymore. And then it came back and m I still owned the book. I still had the book. I cannot explain why I did

not return to that thing. I know why in retrospect, I know why because I didn't have to work hard enough. I didn't learn anything. I just did stuff and it went away. And Okay, that was great for ten years, but it didn't actually learn So when it came back, I didn't have a skill set. I didn't have enough knowledge. I wasn't I didn't really understand what I did. I just did stuff. So anyway, I failed to do it. And yes, it did progress because I would fight it

and I would avoid. So when I would panick on the highway, WOULD stopped writing and stopped driving on the highway. And when I would panic in the supermarket, I stopped going to the supermarket. And when I panicked in my office, I didn't want to go to my I own a company and I couldn't go to the office. That's pretty embarrassing. That sucks. Yeah, it's better though than having to explain it to the boss. In a weird way, as crazy

as it sounds. Look, I mean, if you're gonna wind up agophobic, be the boss, because yes we can joke about that, but that's true. Um. But yeah, I disappeared from my own business. Um, and I was stuck in my house and I was terrified to be alone. Uh. And that's monophobia. Now, monophobia is a word that a lot of us throw around. I have to be honest with you. I do not know if you would find monophobia in the DSM. And maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. I don't know. But it's a it's a very very

common part of the anxiety and agoraphobia complex. Monophobia is where you are terrified to be alone. And this has nothing to do with having anxious attachment or anything like that. Yeah, this isn't like a, uh, your mother abandoned you. This is literally just like you might not even want to hang out with people emotionally. You're just so afraid that if if someone's not there monitoring you, you will die.

This is I am still deathly afraid of my own body and my mother's sensations, and I'm afraid of my thoughts, and somebody must be here to save me, and save me might be literally get me to a hospital, or perform cprmy or might be well, they have to calm me down. And if there's nobody around to save you, then you'll just left with you and the monster air quotes, and that's how monophobia develops. I will I posted not

too long on social media. Is a true story. And it's funny now, but at the time it wasn't funny. I had a Rhodesian ridgeback dog at the time. She was great lex He was an awesome dog, and I remember literally spending a tremendous amount of mental energy trying to convince myself that if need big, the dog could somehow dial the phone. That is a true story. Listen,

I've seen YouTube videos where they do that. Yeah, and and all honestly like that, irrational fear becomes so self serving and so all consuming and so powerful in the way twist things in your head that I would put the cordless was a big, old cordless phone in the late nineties. It wasn't it wasn't pretty, And I would put it on the floor next to the dog, and like you would lay next to me all the time because she would stick with me when I was feeling

it wasn't feeling good. She was great, and somehow I in my mind, why I found some solace in the idea that maybe she could actually like hit a button if I if I'm able to at least hit the button. And you know, I literally went through that. I was terrified to be alone that, But I mean it's in a in a weird way, you were soothing yourself, right, it gave you some comfort even though it was made up. I was trying because I knew that there's no chance. He was an awesome dog, but she doesn't know how

to dial phone. Dude, Like, like, I knew this in my heart, but yet somehows I was grasping at anything that might make me feel better. But I did. I became a garphobic and that happened to me kind of twice in my life after that, and uh, agoraphobia. I did a podcast episode on a garaphobia. This is pretty simple.

And the million dollar question is why does somebody have a panic attack or multiple panic attacks in the life and never developed panic disorder or garaphobia Because the progression to a gooraphobia, which is not by the way, a fear of leaving your house. It's a fear of how you will feel in certain context and situations that fear fear, fear of attack, fear of your panic symptoms in the

thoughts and wherever they happen. Then I can't go there. Okay, So panic attack leads to panic attacks, which leads a panic disorder, which leads to avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, got avoid my triggers. Got to know my triggers and avoid them. We hear all the time bad advice. Avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid means you run out of places to be air quote safe, and most of the time you wind up that your home. For some people, one piece of furniture in their home is the only safe place. That's terrible

and heartbreaking. But I work with people all the time then are literally stuck on their sofa, yeah, or in the bed. That's a go phobia because what happens when you if you're a gorphobic, Um, is there something in your brain that I don't know, like somehow prevents you from panicking at home? Like is there a built in protection or can people start to develop Oh my god, now I'm it's coming from inside the house. Now I'm

panicking in my safe place. That's always terrible, terrible because most of the time the common thing is somebody who's I'm safe at home, I'm modified to gorphobia. Is I'm okay as long as I can leave the house, as long as I have my partner with me, or my mom or my sister or my best friend, those my safe people, Okay, I can go out with them, and it's okay. But it just it's really just the ultimate expression of avoidance as an anxiety strategy, run a muck.

It's avoidance left unchecked. So every place that you experience panic, you leave that place, the panic goes away, which was gonna anyway, no matter what happens, it was always going to go away. And then you associate, well, I have I can't go there because it will trigger that if I go again, And for some people that even becomes I can't go to the kitchen, I can't go into the bathroom, I can't go into the living room, I

can't stand by the form on tour. It's terrible. It's literally like this learning mechanism run a muck gone off the rails. And do most people come out of this? I mean, is it? Yeah? I did a lot of people do. Yeah, it's not a hopeless situation that. The thing that sucks about that is how did I get out of it? Well? I started doing the things that that you know, we don't. I mean, let you lead the way here, but we're talked about talking. But in

a way, that was it. I had to understand that, Like, well clearly intellectually, when you ask, does my brain somehow think that I'm safer in my house? You know that logically, like I'm the same person in my living room that I am in in Midtown, or I am in North Jersey, or I am in California or in China. You know this already. But yet that that fear center in your brain, you're made the lid has decided no, no, no, no, None of those places is safe. Only this is safe.

So the only way to go through it is to say, well, I'm intentionally going to go and start doing those things that I think will make me panic. And if I do panic, I'm going to have to use that surrender method and keep learning again and again and end that it keeps failing to live up to its threat, It keeps failing to take me down, It keeps failing to kill me. It keeps failing to make me crazy, and and so yeah, it's that it's those learning those lessons.

So you take the same exact mechanism that teaches you to be afraid of your own body, and you throw in reverse and use it to learn not to be afraid of your body anymore. Not to stop the anxiety, not be afraid of it. That's the first goal. Here's

another one of my metaphors. It reminds me of an internatural I don't know if you've seen circumstances where somebody is being bullied by an internet tural, some anonymous something, and they're going back and forth and everyone's anxiety is out of control, and it's until someone says, you know what, I'm gonna call you. Let me call you, um, let's talk about this. I've seen a few things on the Internet where people have done this and the person once

you call them is like completely backing down. They're like, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know what I was doing, you know, And uh, It's it's sort of like panic. It's like if I fight my panic, I'm fighting with internet roles. Everyone's getting more anxious and if I just say you know what, what's your number? I'm going to call you and and say it to my face, you know, like what is your deal? And the band is like, you're fighting the troll on their terms. So when you keep

trying to find strategies, I need to find strategies. I need to find my triggers to avoid them and what short circuits it. And again I'm not picking on things. It's just I'm gonna tell you my my perspective. And you know, I'm not for everybody. But when you try to fight it that way or manage it or stop it or halt it, you're fighting it on its terms,

and it wins every time. If you're if you're listening to Jen right now and you've been trying to manage anxiety and panic attacks for years and kind of failing, well, you have to sometimes consider them maybe I should stop fighting it. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true. Yeah, And I love how you say on there, it's on its terms and you'll lose that every time that you just we just don't have the ability to fight that war. I have experienced that and just funny ten second story

on Instagram. You know, I do a lot of work with with Josh and those folks on Instagram, And we do have a troll that the entiring iety community has one person that's angry at us, and I have in the middle of an Instagram live said Hey, come on, come on camera, come on with me, come on, and then they're then they're gone, Yeah, they're they're probably angry with you, guys because you're shining light on stuff they

need to do. Who knows why, but yes, you do have to say, like, all right, come on, let's talk about this. Come on in and show me what you got. And since it turns out it's got a lot. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it isn't. Anxiety is a powerful thing, and that physiologic response is a powerful thing, and it is very scary. But in the end, the threat that you have perceived it as is not real.

It's not going to take you down. We'll continue the interview on the flip side of a quick message from our sponsors. So let's go back to the what happens in those ten years that you weren't panicking anymore. So I have a lot of people say to me, Oh, I think I'm gonna check out your podcast, because you know, I had anxiety and then I got rid of it, and then it came back and and I just don't know what to do anymore. So so the story they're

telling is they had anxiety. They did every single thing you could do, they did it perfectly, and they are so you know, they are so bad at this and they're so unlucky and they're so unwell that it came back and oh my god. And I always know, um, not in a blaming them way, but you know, you probably didn't try everything, and you probably didn't try enough things that work for you, and you probably it probably just kind of went away on its own, and you thought you were safe, and you see it as a

personal failure that it came back. I don't really know how to look at it in those terms of where it goes when we don't have it for ten years. But you say, looking back on it, um, the reason that when your panic and anxiety came back and you didn't think to use your old techniques, that was because the old techniques, when you were using them the first time that you got rid of everything that you hadn't

worked hard enough. It was only a few months, and so in other words, are you saying like almost if if we're talking about an alcoholic, like you hadn't hit a bottom yet in a way you hadn't. You hadn't really had to work so so hard at it that became habit. What did you mean by didn't work hard enough? Yes,

I think that's probably it, you know. And then and thank you for pointing that because it didn't work hard enough is probably a very wrong I should not have made that statement because that hints it like you got a grind man, and this is about you know, this is not a hardcore character thing at all. Yeah, it didn't work. You didn't go through it enough. Right, It did not force my hand for whatever reason. At that point I read the book. I learned she was speaking

right to me. Dr Weets was speaking right to me when I read the book, like I have that, I have that, I have that like I She was describing everything I was feeling, and so just knowing what it was was enough at that point, Oh, I have to do this, Okay, I can do this really scary thing. I did that scary thing, and and then I stopped being afraid and it sort of went away. But I didn't it didn't sink again enough, Like, I don't know.

I wish I could find words for this. You find a book you really love, you read it, and then you go back ten years later and you read it again. It's like, wow, there's a lot of stuff in this book that I missed the first time. Or a movie that you love so much that, like, I don't know, every time I watched The Big Lebowski, there's something funny you're in it, Like, you don't you have to keep going back to it, and I didn't have to for whatever reason, and that that turned out to be a

bit problematic in a way. And I can't explain all of it j And I wish I could. I wish I could explain my decision to not pick up that book again and not work that process. I don't know why. Well, the fact that you can't explain it is I think the most interesting part and the most relatable part, which is, I don't know. Sometimes we just don't know. We don't know why we're doing things. Don't know. But I made it,

and I don't know why I made it. All right, whatever that turned out this way, But it's a good insight for anyone who's saying, oh, my anxiety came back and I don't know why. It's like, is there something you're forgetting to do? Is there something that helped last time? Is you know, just take a look at that. Don't assume that because you did it already that it works for life. It's not like putting a protective stain resistant

thing on your couch. You know. Um, even sunscreen you have to reapply hour, you know, you have to keep doing it. I like the sunscreen now just really good. I'm gonna steal that. Totally steal that. Please steal it to you for sure. Jen Kirkman has put on sunscreen. Um, so it's really good. But that's correct. People also assume that, like, well, people ask me all the time, well, well can you do you still have panic attacks? I'm like, I don't know,

I might have one or two a year maybe. I'm like, oh, well, then what's the point. Then you're not really recovered, then are you? Like they think they're catching me or they're calling me out fraud. So you had a panic attack, Like, but nobody ever said that you are guaranteed to never panic or never be anxious ever. Again, that would not be realistic human beings experienced anxiety, and many, many, many human beings they don't develop disordered anxiety, experienced panic attacks

now and then their life. Many they just that just that they don't become controlling their lives, but they experienced at least is a part of life. So well. Also, I mean, to me, as a fellow and former daily ten times a day panic disorder stuffer for years. I'm talking undiagnosed for ten years at first and then very slowly recovered over fifteen more years. One or two a year to me is like saying zero. I think that's exactly right. I always I use a silly analogy. I'm

the king of stupid analogies. So I use the analogy of chicken salad, and I tell people like, imagine, like, are you worried that a chicken salad sandwich might appear on your kitchen counter? And then the answer is like no, of course, I'm not worried about that, And then they'd laugh and we laugh, and I try and get a joke out of it, and like, well, you're not worried that a chicken salad sandwich will appear because you're not afraid of chicken salad. So I never worry I might

have a panic attack today or I might not. But truly recovery is that it starts, it goes, it ends. I documented one on Instagram about six months ago, like the aftermath of it, and then it's over. And after you get done with the shakiness that lasts another half hour because that's just physiology. Then the event is over. You know what's interesting, I just realized, I love that that you're saying. The recovery is not fearing that one's going to show up out of the blue, um, not

caring if one shows up better, and not caring. And you know, I, as long as I've been doing my recovery work, and it's literally been over thirty years, I am still not actively afraid of sitting here, you know, biting my nails. But if someone said to me, how would you feel, um if you had a couple of panic attacks this year, I'd go I would say, I'm I'm not only do I just not want to have them, but I think I do sometimes live in fear I'm

going to have one. The thoughts passed through my head of things that are upcoming this year or something, Oh I hope I don't have a panic attack during that Now it comes, it goes. I don't think about it, but I do think I need to when I think those thoughts like really work on my um just being like I don't care, you know, I'm not quite they're all the time. So it's just cool to hear that. Yeah, I think we can't just decide not to care. People hear me say that, they're like, how could you not

care about something so terrible? Like, well, okay, I can acknowledge that it's terrible. I don't want to have a panic attack now at all. I don't like it. I don't welcome it. But the differences. You don't just decide to not care. You learn how to not care. I learned how to not anticipate it is probably more likely a better description. I don't anticipate it or worry about it.

But there are times like I do let the thoughts stay around, and I will start anticipating something like I've gone through recently with you know, driving alone on the freeway and all that, and and I did banic, but it was because I absolutely let that anticipatory thought stay around, and I actually engaged it in conversation like an idiot. Yeah, never, And I tell people all the time. One of the things I teach a lot is like, no, in a dialogue,

do not get in that conversation. Listen, we've all been in that and that you've been in that situation where a drunk dude is trying to get your number. You could turn your back. You can turn your back on them. You know you can. Um you can turn your back on that person. You'll still hear them jawing at you and being obnoxiously drunk, but you don't have to respond,

and that that's key. And when you learn to do that, the what if I panic again turns into well, even if I panic again, okay, even if what if becomes even if oh I love that, Well, even if I panic, I'm okay, because the lesson of recovery over time is

I'm okay across all context. Whether I panick it, that's a well, I don't get too technical, but in the end, what we really want to learn is not how to stop a panic attack, but to understand that when you're anxious or sad or happy or upset or panicky or whatever, you're always okay. We're designed to feel all of those things. It's Okay, you're okay in all the contexts. I love what if to even if genia is so simple, I didn't invent that. Somebody smarter than me, did I don't

know who it just passed along to me. I don't, can't. I never take credit for sink. Oh well, I love it. Thank you for hearing whoever said it. So lastly, the notion you you just kind of mentioned the word, you know, spirituality in your book, and I'd love to talk about it, because you know, you're not a guru sitting on a mountain in a robe, and you're just a guy like

I'm just some chicken. We're sitting here on the East coast talking And did you mean by that like there's a spirituality that that's kind of helped you with this too, or maybe you didn't say it like that and I'm projecting. Okay, Well I think all right, maybe you might be projecting. You saw the word spirituality. Okay, So here's the deal, Like, um I see, and again I understand that my message is not for everybody. I'm okay with that. Um I

see no spiritual basis in this. So one of the things that I find fascinating and maybe I'd like to have you on my podcast one day too. I'd love to you. Come on. We'll talk about this how we could have come from two completely different I mean we could not have been any different. You're literally driving past the cemetery, lamenting the loss of this stories and people just driving past these lives, and and you were thinking about deaths, and God forbid, you're listening to the Smiths.

Come on, get a hold of yourself. Woman. But I was I was completely the opposite in high school. I was a bulletproof titanium, like nothing, never nervous about anything. And we both mind up in the same place. So that idea that there's a spiritual or healing aspect to panic, to disordered anxiety, I'm not talking about regular everybody gets anxious. I've talked about panic attacks to orphobia, o c D, those life controlling disorders. I do not see a spiritual

component to those. This isn't about finding something spiritual to heal at all. It's not telling me anything. It's it's telling me bullshit and I have to call it out, is what it's telling me. But that being said, this what I have found is a level of I am a attracted to the studies of Buddhism and Taoism and Stoicism. I would not tell you I'm a terribly religious person. Um, I do think there's something else. I don't know what,

but so maybe I'm agnostic. But the practice of recovery and learning recovery has brought me to a little bit more of a I don't want to call it a spiritual place. I found no spirituality in the process of recovery because I didn't feel that I healed, I learned. Yeah, but yet I feel like I've come to a place where I just handle life so much better and there is a certain spirituality with that when I understand like, well,

everything is supposed to happen, and that's true. I believe that in my soul, like everything that's supposed to happen will happen, including an occasional panic attack or pangs of anxiety or or irrational crazy thoughts about like what if I just decided to drive off this bridge. All of that is supposed to happen, and I'm okay with all of that because none of it is, none of it

is consequential or dangerous. Well, okay, then yeah, then then that that's where I think the word surrender is kind of a has a nice mystical mysterious quality, right, it all does. We can't get away from that anxiety bites will be right back after a quick little message from one of our sponsors. Now this is the stuff that used to make me panic? Oh my, like, like to take it further than I'm sitting and listening to the myths in high school, You're this like bulletproof guy. We

ended up in the same place. What what is so mystical about that? Is like? And then going further, who even knows how the world began? Where all these humans on this like spinning globe. Now that oh that thought? You want me to have a panic attack? And what do you You also mentioned the word existential in your book that like someone had said to you, of course

you're having a panic attack. You just graduated college. You know, people your age tend to have an existential crisis, and especially since you felt a little pre panic de realization feelings as a kid, like, I'm not going to buy into that it was an existential crisis. I think it was just you know, random, But I do think I was always very like I'm the type of person who actually did want to fly on an airplane. I begged

my parents, Um, can we fly on airplanes? Because back then it used to be glamorous in the early eighties, you know, and uh, can we go on a trip on an airplane? And then I developed this panic disorder and airplanes, you know. And then I always loved um space, and you know, I grew up in the eighties with the space shuttles, and I loved space, and I loved stars and looking in the sky. And then I developed

a fear of looking up. I couldn't look at the sky because I was so afraid of the the expanse of universe I didn't want to hear about, even though I really did. And so since I've recovered from that kind of stuff, my little existential self that used to sit in the cemetery is now with the less drama, is so interested in space and science and stars and and even the mystical stuff that isn't science, but you know, the more spiritual stuff of like why are we here?

I just find that fun to play with and think about. And now it's something that gives me great comfort to feel that I'm part of this big, unexplainable thing. Whereas before being part of a big, unexplainable thing was like don't I would have if if I was old me, I would have had to turn this podcast off right now and I'd be under the table panicking. Completely get you, Jen, I totally understand that, because why I didn't come from where you came from. With that, I developed that in

the height of the disorder. My kids were young at the time. I would not let them use the word dead or death. I couldn't hear it. I could not hear it. I had a crippling fear of death and existence and annihilation and why are we here? And my God,

how is there even anything like? I understand all of that, And as crazy as it sounds, I even wrote that in my The Anxious Truth, the book the other book that I wrote, I wrote that when you get past then that rational fear doesn't have a grip on you anymore. Those thoughts stuff become torture devices, They stop being then they become toys. So now I love conversations about existence and spirituality and the nature of everything, and it's fun.

It was torturous, So I completely understand you. I think that's what I meant when I was like stumbling through like there's something spiritual happening. Is like you get to um enjoy all the fruits of being human, which is going, what the hell even is this? You know? Um? And and I think avoiding thinking about that can even cause some anxiety. I know it did for me. But lastly, I said that twice but truly, lastly, annihilation that was something.

And this is like a crazy cliffhanger to end on such a big topic, but I do remember at one point in my recovery journey, is a therapist to me, you ultimately like this panicking and that like the feeling that you're gonna I had this very specific fear that I was going to lou gravity would stop working on me and I would fly away. Oh my god, you're the second person You're coming to my parts. You are now my second person I've ever found to say that. Did you do you have that? Or is that someone

else you know? No, I know one other person that was afraid that gravity would stop working. Jen, You made my day. Yeah, but not. But the narcissism of it was only on me, not every if everyone else was flying around great, you know. And my therapist said, well that's just a fear of annihilation, and I was like what, And it's like so much bigger than a fear of death.

That's a whole other thing. But so I do think there is this like very fun, philosophical, existential fear that um that we have when we're panicking and having anxiety, which is so much like like death as a as a as a wall, and if you knock that wall down, what's behind it is a fear of annihilation and it just keeps going and going. It's like, wow, this stuff

is trippy. I can tell you how you have made my day with the gravity story, Jen Well, I am so glad that this irrational fear that I've had since I was a child, that I could not articulate for fear that someone would lock me up and throwing the key, that now I am just comfortably sitting in my apartment in Brooklyn telling you and it's made your day, Like, what what a journey, Drew. I should probably modify that.

I'm not happy that you had that fear, but I've told that story to people and They're like, you're just making that up to make me feel better, and I'm like, oh no, guess what. Now we have a living, breathing person with a name that people know that was afraid of gravity. Yep, I corroborate, and that my friends who

was my chat with Drew lins alatta. And as always, you can go to Jen Kirkman dot com and click on Anxiety Bites and you can read all of these takeaways that I'm about to say and uh have them for yourselves. I don't know, copy and paste, put it somewhere. And if you want to send an email to this show, if you have any tips and tricks that you want to share with the other listeners, or you want to ask my advice on anything, Anxiety Bites weekly at gmail dot com, please do send it in. I will be

doing listener email episodes about once every four episodes. Okay, so here are some takeaways things that we've learned from this episode. Sometimes a panic attack doesn't just literally feel like a heart attack, but the sensations can be so odd that some people think it's just their last moments alive. What they're feeling is almost like what you think being moments away from death feels like. With panic and anxiety, there is always in irrational fear that comes with it,

but the fear that you feel is always real. It's not in your head. The only thing that's irrational about the fear that you are feeling during panic and anxiety is that even though the fear is real, you are feeling it, you are experiencing it. There's no underlying danger beneath it. We just believe that there is. One of the insidious things about a panic attack is we will always insist this is the worst panic attack I've ever had, as though they are somehow getting worse. It only feels

that way. During a panic attack. There is an undulating wave, there's a spike, and then the panic comes down, and then maybe another spike, but you never totally come down to zero. So that's why a lot of people will say my panic attack lasted for hours or three days straight, because a lot of times we think a panic attack ends when we are feeling zero anxiety. That's really not how it works. When we talk about acceptance with having a panic attack, it does not mean that we like

this panic attack or that we want it. Another way to look at it is the use of the word surrender. You surrender to the panic attack happening to you, which is actually a coping mechanism that is going to make it go away. The practice of sitting through a panic attack in acceptance is a practice of literally giving up the fight of panicking, but not giving up your quest to recover from having panic attacks. It certainly does not

mean giving up in the moment. It just means I'm clearly not successful in finding this thing when it happens, trying to stop it, manage it, and not get down manage the symptoms. So I'm just going to let the symptoms come and get me, because you know, these symptoms keep failing to take me down. As much as they threaten, they never do, So I'm just going to let it happen. When you are terrified to be alone, that's known as monophobia. It's a very very common part of anxiety in the

agoraphobia complex. So monophobia is when you are terrified to be alone. But it doesn't have to do with, you know, emotionally not wanting to be alone or having anxious attachment. It's literally, I am definitely afraid of my own body and my other sensations, and I'm afraid of my thoughts, and I'm going to need somebody here just kind of

on standby. To save me, and that might literally mean that you're imagining that they could take you to a hospital or perform CPR right then, and that they would be the only thing that could help calm you down, and that if there's nobody around to save you, then you are just left with you and your monster, which is how monophobia develops. A gorphobia isn't quite a fear

of leaving your house. It's more of a fear of how you will feel in certain contexts and situations where you feel that you are away from your safe zone. Panic attacks can lead to panic disorder, which can lead to avoid. Avoid, avoid avoid triggers, avoid places that trigger you, and then when you run out of safe places, most of the time, you will wind up at your home,

which is a gorphobia. There is a modified forms of a gorphobia, like you can leave the house, but as long as you have your partner with me, or your mom, or your sister or your best friend, you have safe people that make it okay to go out. Another way to think of panic and how it's common for you is to remember, it keeps failing to take you down, It keeps failing to kill you, and it keeps failing

to make you crazy. Even though every time during a panic attack you are convinced you are going to die or go crazy, it has never happened. Panic is not good at killing you. Panic is not good and making you go crazy. Panic is all talk. In order to recover from panic attacks, you have to take the same exact mechanism that teaches you to be afraid of your own body and your throw it in reverse and you use it to learn not to be afraid of your body anymore. It's not to stop the anxiety, it's to

not be afraid of it. That's the first goal in panic attack and anxiety recovery. Nobody ever said that you're guaranteed to never panic or never be anxious again. That just wouldn't be realistic. Human beings experienced anxiety, and many human beings, even ones that don't develop disordered anxiety, will still experience panic attacks now and then. It's just that they don't let them control their lives. As Drew says, are you worried that a chicken salad might suddenly appear

in your kitchen counter? And the answer is no, of course I'm not worried about that. Okay, Well, are you not worried that a chicken salad sandwich will appear, because you're not afraid of chicken salad. Yes, that's why I'm not afraid. Okay, great, So don't worry about having a panic attack, because if you are not afraid of one, you will not worry about it suddenly appearing out of nowhere. As Drew says in his recovery, he just doesn't care

about something so terrible as a panic attack anymore. He acknowledges, yes, it's terrible. He doesn't want to have a panic attack, he doesn't like it, he doesn't welcome it. But the differences, he just decides not to care. He's learned not to care, which is helpful in furthering that, which is learning how not to anticipate one. He doesn't worry about, oh my god, what if one happens, And he tells people all of the time. If you're starting to have an inner dialogue

about what if I panic? What if this? Do not get into the conversation. Think of it as a drunk dude trying to get your number. You can turn your back on him, and you know you still hear them talking at you being obnoxiously drunk. But you don't have to engage and respond in it, and that's key. This was my favorite takeaway. We go from worrying what if I panic again? To even if I panic again, I will be okay. That's what I actually wanted to call this episode is from what if too even if, but

I thought people might not know what that means. And I think we can catch a lot more fish with the when anxiety comes back anyway, So I hope you enjoyed this episode as always Again, like I've said, Jen Kirkman dot com, click Anxiety Bites you can read the takeaways. Please do send me an email Anxiety Bites weekly at gmail dot com. We have a lot more great guests coming up for you this season. The season is about

half over. It's um. We have forty six episodes this season, and just a reminder, I am working a full time job during the week days while bringing this podcast to you, so I'm not always available UM to certain guests that you know. There's certain topics that I'm dying to get to, like more lgbt Q topics, UM anxiety and a d D anxiety and menopause anxiety with how do we help children and teens with anxiety, elderly people with anxiety. It's all. It's all eventually going to get there, but um, my

schedule is a bit of an issue right now. So it's it's sometimes hard to line people up unless we have the same exact schedule. So I'm here in all of you and all of your requests for things. UM, certainly I want to cover it all. And hey, you know what, if you tell a friend, if you give this a five star review on Spotify or Apple podcasts, maybe I Heart we give me a second season, which will give me way more time to cover every single aspect of anxiety and more. So thanks again for listening,

and yes, anxiety bites, but you're in control. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.