Performing, Panic, & Perseverance

career now. She chose to leave her career in acting, but not exactly to immediately segue into helping people with anxiety. She wandered around for a while, not not exactly sure

where life would eventually take her. And those kind of stories really intrigued me because that kind of uncertainty can so much anxiety, and for me being an entertainment myself, I wanted to start this podcast because something was calling me to do anything that I was qualified to do to help people, and I think I'm qualified to talk to people who can help you. Let's start there. Lisa and I talk about a lot of things. We bond over panic attacks. Now I will say this episode, I'm

a little chatty. I just sometimes I just connect with a guest where I feel like we're just out for coffee together. And you might think, God, this is a lot of gin, but I just I don't know. I just wanted to tell her everything, and I did get to ask her every single thing I had planned. But you know, if you're still on the fence about me, you might be like, it's kind of a lot of gen in this episode. But maybe I had too much coffee that day. And you know, my A d h

D makes me real chatty. Anyway, so today. Lisa is a mental wellness educator trained and specializing in workshop retreat facilitation. She creates custom content about anxiety for corporate events. She's a keynote speaker for all types of organizations. She teaches yoga and writing for managing anxiety, depression, or trauma. She's also the podcast host of I Said That Backwards, That's okay,

I'm leaving it in. She's the host of the podcast Embrace You're Weird, where she talks very personally about her own anxiety and interviews a lot of veterans, and she does a lot of work with war veterans On PTSD. We get into how a former child actress is actually so instrumental in the lives of many veterans. As she calls herself, she is a pacifist Canadian vegetarian and she never thought it would be something she was doing either.

She's written two books. One is called You Look Like That Girl, a child actor stops pretending and finally grows up. And her latest book, Not Just Me, Anxiety, Depression and

Learning to Embrace You're Weird. Now, for any of you who have anxiety and you've never purchased a book about anxiety, I really recommend the book Not Just Me, because not only do you have Lisa's personal stories, you have stories from people that she has worked with as well, and she has a lot of facts about anxiety, panic, social anxiety. It's a really good starting point if you want a nice overall book that can help you feel like you're

not the only one. It's not some doctor talking to you based on studies they've done, but it's a real person. And of course everything is linked in the show notes. So if you want to take one of Lisa's online anxiety management workshops, if you want to take one of her donation based yoga classes online, and of course, if you want to get her books, go to her website. Again,

all of that is in the show notes. What I really like about Lisa is I can just tell that she is meant to do this because she lights up when she talks about helping other people with anxiety. And I'm so glad that she does what she does. We need seventy million more of her to help with I think what is probably a global pandemic, part two, which is anxiety. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Lisa, and again, sorry for all the gim thank you for

being here. Lisa, I'm really excited. I feel like you're a real um kindred spirit. Oh I'm I'm so thrilled to meet you and so excited to talk about all this stuff. Well, you know, I've I've been geeking out on your work all week. So I've been listening to your podcast. Which are you still doing? Are their new episodes up? Because I've been going way back. Yeah, I have a new episode that came out a couple of

weeks ago. I'll agree. I work with a lot of veterans, and so my most recent episode was with someone who is actually currently in the military. Talking about moral injury and post traumatic stress and all those kinds of stuff. Oh yeah, and your podcast is called Embrace Your Weird. Yes, it's so you guys will love it after of cour after you listen to this episode, go download Embrace Your Weird.

Lisa is in her closet because the sound is best from there, and she is just it's a lot of the episodes are just you talking to us, and it's very soothing, and you're just you remind me of I'm

gonna compliment myself right now. You remind me of me in the sense that when we talk about anxiety, we seem to light up, you know what I mean, which is strange, right, because it's a topic that I think most people are so reluctant to talk about, and then when they do talk about it, they kind of talk about it like this, and they get really quiet and

just filled with shame. And then there are people like us who are like, oh my god, yeah, like, just crack this ship open, let's go, And yeah, I always feel so good when I can talk to somebody else who really kind of feels the same way, and we'll get through you know, your whole history of all your hearing anxieties and and all that. But it's interesting because so I I think you and I I'm a little older. So I don't mean to say you're my age I am.

I am older everybody. Um, I'm four years older. And but I don't know if you relate to this growing up pre internet. I know you and I started having panic and anxiety attacks rather young, way before the Internet, I mean, you know, and like you, I felt like I was probably going insane, and I thought, once everyone finds out, I will live in a hospital the rest of my life. And you know, I was really not

even trying to be funny. I really thought that. So I thought, keep this a secret as long as possible until I absolutely can't live this way, and then I'll basically like turn myself in, you know. And I was completely serious. I mean, I thought that was really you know, there was only your crazy like a bugs Bunny cartoon like boa and you're normal. There was nothing else that

was it. Those were the two options. Yeah, And so I thought, I'm not normal, but I guess I'll wait until i'm you know, doing like the bugs Bunny cartoon and going so basically I felt really alone, right, and so then you know, years go by, and I I called myself like an anxious and recovering and former fear of flyer, and I still panic attacks a couple of times a year. But it's so like, oh whatever, you know.

But I had this really naive notion that young people, although they have you know, obviously every generation has ridiculous things to deal with societally and personally. But I thought, well, the one area where young people are luckier than me is that they can just type the word anxiety into the computer and they'll get all the help they need, and there's so much free stuff out there and they

won't feel alone. And I really thought that. And it wasn't until by being a comedian going on the road that young people were coming to my shows and they were saying um in the meet and greet line after Hey, thanks for talking about anxiety on stage, and I'd be like, oh, And the minute they say that, I write a story for them. Oh, they're in therapy, they're doing great. I'm like, oh, good, good to meet another one by. And I would get d M s from them on social media later after

the show saying well, how do you handle it? And I'm like what do you mean you don't know, like not in a route weight, but like I'm blown away here that I thought maybe you guys had figured it out. And I realized where I was being a typical anxious person is that I thought I was the only like I knew I wasn't the only one who had anxiety, but I thought I was the only one who felt alone. And I thought it was because of the Internet not

being there, And that's not what I mean. It could be one of the reasons, but that's why it's such an epidemic. Rights Even with all of the voices saying it's okay, I have anxiety too, and you can google it and a lot of help comes up, people still feel alone and ashamed, and that is heartbreaking. It really

is heartbreaking. And that is exactly why I started doing the work that I do, because when I wrote my two books and went out and did book tours and was, you know, reading passages and doing talks in colleges and high schools, I would have that exact act the same situation where at the end of the talk people would come up to me, often times younger people, and be like, I have anxiety too. I've never told anyone I have no clue what to do about this, please help, And

I think you know that first step. Even though some of the stigma is starting to diminish around this stuff, it can still be really hard to admit to yourself, Yeah, you're struggling with these things that you need help from someone else. And I think so a lot of us are still getting getting stuck with with labels and terminology and all those sorts of things. I've definitely gotten emails from people saying, you know, I know you do. You know help people anxiety, but you can't help me have

it worse than anyone. And you know I I would if I were a psychiatrist, I would probably delve deeper into I think you want that to be true, just because it would be at least an answer. I can't be helped. I mean, no one wants to find out you can live with this every day and just feel a little bit um, you know, like you live with it every day and you have your your tools and

your coping mechanisms. I don't know if that's all that attractive to people in the sense, right, Yeah, And I think it does become kind of like a security blanket in some ways. And I also find it really interesting, especially with people who are artists who have anxiety, who tie this idea of, well, my my art, my writing, my comedy, my music all comes from the same place that my anxiety or my depression comes from. So if I deal with my anxiety and my depression, what happens

to my art? And I think we get really tied into this idea of like the tragic suffering artists. And I know personally that like, when I'm depressed, my writing is crap. That's right, Like I do better work when I feel okay, And so being able to kind of tap into well, what is it about feeling a little bit better that freaks you out? You know, what is it that you feel like you would have to let

go of? Oh that's a great question. You know, what is it that you feel like you would then have to move forward and do if you weren't so burdened by the anxiety. So I think it gets super, super messy. Do you find that people's answers are once they tell you what they're afraid of, they're kind of illogical and like that that fear would never come to pass anyway, Or are they legitimate fears. I think it's a bit above I think for me, definitely, my my fears around it.

We're we're illogical, but um yeah, I mean everybody is coming from a different place with it. Everybody gets different messages around what it means to have anxiety, to have mental wellness issues, you know, back from when we were a kid, like what messages did you get from your family? What did you see around you? And how are you carrying that forward into your into your life today. It's interesting.

You know, Elizabeth Gilbert, the author of Course Um, in her book I Think It's Big Magic, she talks about that the artist as the you know, person that has demons and you know, I need my demons to do my art. And she says something I'm paraphrasing, like, well, the demons can inform what you want to talk about, the angels do the work. Something like that. Isn't that? So I totally got goose bumps with that. I got into just repeating you don't have to torture yourself and

live that way. You recall, right, And so to any artists out there, trust me, you'll never forget how this anxiety feels. So if you need it for your art, and you get healthy, you'll be able to recall it no problem, you know. Um. But it's it's not even like I don't even think that's people's worry. They worry that it's like this is who I am, you know, and and they're allowed to change, you know, and to

hell with anyone who doesn't like it, you know. Um. So that brings me to you, So okay when you um, I'm just looking at my notes because I get I've a d D. I'm like a d D theater. I'm like, I keep saying what I'm going to ask you, and then I keep being like, but wait, um, so you left acting at you were a child actor and you left acting in two thousand one at age twenty two.

And I'm so fascinated by this because there's a million ways I could go with this, but I want to talk all around the sense of like the irony right of it wasn't acting that gave you anxiety, Like you just a person with anxiety happened to be an actor and you felt that there was just something else you needed to do, but you didn't know what it was yet. That is what's so interesting to me, is like you're getting this calling, but whoever's calling you is not giving

you all the information. It's like you're getting hang up calls from your destiny and you're like, what am I supposed to? But you know you have to leave, and so you do. And it's such a great testament to patience and trusting and following your heart. But I know that you originally left thinking maybe wanted to be a writer, and so just take us through leaving and was there any sense in your head yet that you wanted to

work with people who have anxiety? I love I love I love hearing like your interpretation of that story and that time because it makes me sound like I had my ship together and I was just really wise and intuitive and absolutely none of that is true. Um yeah, so I was. You know, I was twenty two, I was in l A. I had been working as an actor since I was four, so I was like eighteen

years into this career. I had, you know, done Mrs out Fire, I had done Independence Day and everybody kept telling me I was living the dream life, like I had won the Golden ticket. I was doing the best possible thing with my life that a human who do. And I was miserable. I mean, my depression was really bad. I had horrible anxiety. I have a panic disorder, so I was having three and four panic attacks a day. Um,

I was a mess. All I knew was that I did not want to be one of those stereotypical child actor train wrecks. I knew I did not want that to be my path. I was becoming increasingly aware of the realities of the film industry, the superficiality, the misogyny, the competition, all of those things that I didn't feel like that was an authentic part of my path forward. I had enjoyed my time being an actor, but I

felt very strongly that it was done. I got thrown out of high school while filming, mused doubt fire, So I had never graduated from high school. Well, this is a great story too, if you want to share with my listeners, because I'm sure we'll have a lot of crossover from the comedy world. That the Robin Williams, sweet sweet sweet man that he is. I mean, I've only met him once. I didn't know him like you did, but that he wrote a letter to your high school, right,

Yeah he did so. Um, we were a few months into filming doubtfire. I was doing correspondence school again pre internet uh learning back then, so I was, you know, sending my school work back and forth to to my high school. And my high school just sent a letter one time and said, you know, this is too much work for our teachers having to put together you know, steady packets for you, Um, don't come back when you

finished filming. Don't come back. UM. Super devastating for a fourteen year old to have your formal education just sort of ended like that. And uh so Robin saw that I was upset and wrote a letter to my high school, which is which I still have. It's so sweet. I actually have it up on my website if anybody wants to see it. It's a m hello at Leasta Jacob dot com. But I will link it in the show notes.

Will link it in the show notes. I was so touched by the letter that he wrote, just saying like, Hey, this kid is trying to balance her education and her career. Can you please like help her with that? And so the high school got the letter and they framed the letter and they put it up in the principal's office. But they didn't ask me to come back to school. And this was in Canada. The school wasn't we're from

outside of Toronto. Yeah that is, But that doesn't that just encapsulate everything that is so weird about the way people react to someone in the business, Like, oh my god, a letter from Robin Williams. We're not gonna digest the content of it. We're just gonna idolize him, put it on the wall. But treat the real actor. We know

in real life, bye bye, you can't come back. And then at the same time, you're hearing you're living the dream, and it's like, how nobody knows what you're living, you know, and it's if it's not the dream for you, it's not the dream. And I think that frustrates people, like who you're good at acting when you mean you don't love it. It's like, I don't know, maybe you were just only supposed to do it until you were, um, twenty two, you know, maybe you weren't supposed to do

it forever. I really think that's true. I mean, and like, let's look at other people in quote unquote normal jobs, right, A lot of people do something for eighteen years and decide, you know, what, it's time to change paths, and it's not this huge dramatic thing where people are shocked and have opinions about it. Um. But I you know, I got to this point where I really felt like I

needed to make a change. I needed to leave l A and I needed to try to figure out who I was underneath the actor, because that is who I had been since I was four years old. So it really took a while for me. I eventually got my g E D. I went to college. I had always loved writing, so I kind of went back to that did you study writing in college? I didn't because amazing because I was so terrified to let anybody read any

of my writing. I couldn't handle doing it. In college, I studied sociology, um, because I felt like I didn't understand regular society. I felt like I had kind of grown up in this weird movie subculture. Yeah, it's almost like coming out of a cult. I mean, not as extreme, but it has its own languages and abbreviations. You know, it has a his own society. And so you're like, oh, here I am in a different world. You know. Yeah, we'll be right back after this coake message from one

of our sponsors. So It wasn't until after college that I started writing more as as a way to really process my own feelings on leaving l A and trying to find my path forward. And I ended up writing my memoir because I wanted to just as sort of Catharsis, get it out and get on the page that memoir everybody, um, which I read it and it's great. It's called you Look like that Girl, a child actor stops pretending and

finally grows up. Get it everywhere you get books. And I came out, yes, yeah, so you wrote your memoir after college? Yeah? And then you know, it was the thing that we just talked about that you know, people kept coming up to me because in the memoir I do talk about having anxiety, and they just said, can we please talk more about this? So there need to

go a second book. Um. So the second second book is all about anxiety, depression, panicked trauma, and I interview a lot of other people and talk about kind of the latest research on what works and what doesn't, because I just felt like that was something that we all needed. This book is so great. It's uponed not just me, anxiety depression and learning to embrace your weird and what

I love about this book too. I think if anyone has to buy one book about anxiety, to start with by this, because yeah, like you said, it's one chapter, will be your personal story, and then you give case examples and people you've worked with and you've worked with with war veterans, and I mean you get into every single kind of anxiety and panic and everything in this book.

So highly recommend. So anyway, so you didn't really know that this was a career path until after the first memoir and then so then did you start working with people after that as you were writing the second book? Yeah, it kind of evolved. As I was writing the second book, I started working with organizations that that helps support combat veterans. So I started co leading retreats where I would teach. I'm a yoga teacher as well, so I would teach

yoga and meditation, therapeutic writing. And then I started working one on one with people and then teaching mindfulness classes, and it all just kind of evolved, and in a way that I think it's a total shock to me because thinking of me as a teacher, like I don't like it when people look at me, like I don't want to be a person getting attention. There's a reason I left acting, but I'm so And also, you know,

with acting, you're in characters. I mean, people are looking at you, but you don't see them looking at you because you're you're at home and they're at the movies. You know, it's like, yeah, and having to act like yourself, yeah, so much scarier, totally having to act like somebody else and say the words that somebody else wrote and where

the shirt that somebody else picked out. Um. But but for me, the tools that I've found to help me with anxiety and depression were so life changing that I really felt like, oh my god, I have to tell other people about this. So like, Not Just Me is the book that I wish I had had when I was in my darkest moments. The podcast is talking about the topics I wish people had been talking about. I sing no, but I could feel that in this beautiful

way reading your book, I knew it. I knew it in my heart, and I feel that way about myself. Everything I do is to reach out to the young version of me and and other people like her, you know, and and to just say I'm doing this because I wish I had this, and so where did you get your tools? Like did you go to therapy for the first time? Um, you know when how did that all come about? Like how did you know Okay, I need to talk to someone? And where did you find them?

So I did CBT Cognitive behavioral therapy, and so I started doing that when I was in college. And so that was incredibly helpful because I'm a nerd. I like homework, like give me tasks, give me a checklist, and I will get it done. And so CEMT is very much um kind of you go through this process and you do this step, and then you do this step, and then you do this step. So for me, I had tried kind of talk therapy where I would just go in and just kind of like here's everything that's in

my head. That didn't work so well for me because I was just kind of ruminating and going over and over and over it. But when I had really specific tools and steps, I found that to be incredibly helpful. So also my therapist started talking to me about meditation and started giving me books by John cabot Zinn, and then that just sort of sent me down this rabbit hole of mindfulness. I started practicing yoga, which is really just sort of a form of moving meditation, and so

that changed everything for me. And then I started reading everything I possibly could about yoga, meditation, mindfulness, and then did like eight hours of training on those things and it all kind of just snowballed from there. I feel like CBT is like we're putting a fire out. Here's the tools you can learn when you're panicking, and then when you have time, go to see what happened in your child, did if anything, or you know whatever, because

that is part of it. Like we learned unconscious ways to cope from our parents, even if our parents were lovely, you know, we pick up their bad habits that they learned or whatever. Um. But it's interesting too because you say yoga meditation, and I know people are like, I don't want to do that. But your book is so funny because you talk about how much you hated yoga. I mean you were just like I don't want to

do this, and you took a class. You're like no, So to everyone listening, like, yeah, that's how it starts, you know, it really is. And I think it's so interesting too. Uh And this is gonna sound so therapy ish, but like, look at your resistance. Just look at it. Yeah, take a moment and go, wow, you know something is being suggested here and I have just decided like fuck, you know, I'm shutting this down. Oh okay, well, like maybe investigate that a little bit. Why do you have

such strong opinions on that? What? What is it that like is kind of triggering you and making you roll your eyes? And it could be any number of things, right. It could be like, oh, it seems like hippie stuff, or oh that couldn't possibly help me because my issues are so intense, or I tried that once and I thought it was terrible, or it's so trendy that it

can't possibly be any good. Right, So that's fine. And if so many people are talking about it, and if you are having people who are you know, very publicly saying I get it. I was not into this either. But this is something that does not cost you anything. Literally, I have free beginner videos on YouTube. You don't have to leave your house, you don't have to change out

of your pjs. Like what would happen if you just came to it with a little bit more open mindedness and came to it with this sense of like, I really am having a hard time, so I'll try anything. Well, I think it has to get to that point. And I think too, It's like you're naming ten million things cognitive behavior, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, and the list goes on. We're saying all these things are part of the tool kit. You may not do all of them all day, every day,

but they're there. And it's like no one is saying yoga is going to care everything. That would be ridiculous. You know. Um, you know, I went to therapy probably like exactly the same time you did, and it was the late nineties, and I've never heard the word mindful. So when I went to this therapist, she was not

hippie dippy at all. She was just like, oh, yeah, so your panic attacks are blah blah blah, and explain the whole you know, response to something that's not there and adrenaline and the whole thing, the whole caveman story that people do. And she said, uh, well, I want you to do. This is going to seem unrelated to everything, but I want to go home tonight, take a shower, and I want you to think about nothing else but what you're doing. Pick up the soap, feel how the

soap feels. Narrate to yourself, the bubbles everything. Now, anytime any other thought comes in your head, just go right back to narrating the shower. Now, I'm rubbing my knee with alofa you know, just do that and see how you feel when you get out of the shower. And I did, and I remember noticing how many times other thoughts were trying to come in. I mean, I was shocked. And I went back and told her, and then she dropped it on me, Well that's what you did, was mindfulness,

And I went, oh cool. Now we are lucky because we didn't have ven thousand Instagram influencers and people, you know, trying to make a buck off it or saying words that just they've made it meaningless. Now, so now I can see where people are like, oh this again. But it's like, well it keeps coming up for a reason, like you you know. And also I think to like I'm learning with my anxiety. My reactions were a big problem,

just so reactive. And like you said, when we're when we're like now and having that like defiance, it's like when you really turn into something it's so much quieter. It's just like I don't think, I don't know. So it's like, you know, it's like a therapist dream when someone freaks out at a suggestion. They're like, oh, here's the gold mine, you know, but it's true. It's it's like anyone listening. Just all you have to do today is notice your reaction as we talk about min absolutely,

just like what what is true for today? I'm in acceptance that whatever of whatever, just acceptance too well, the car blew up. I've got to accept that happened. You know. Um. I love to in your book, and I think this is what I like about. It's got that like big Sister gen X vibe of we do at a certain point in our anxiety journey, like maybe be delicate at first, but at a certain point it's very impactful to have a little tough love. Yeah, because there is a narcissism

to anxiety. And so what you say about people who say I can't meditate have to, I have too many thoughts, I can't sit still, And you say in your book like, yeah, that's not at all unique at all, that's not You're not that special and her brain is not special. I think you're I think that little sounds a tough love like you're not special works for me. Like if anyone needs to like kind of slap me out of an anxious moment, that's that works for me. Some people, um

need a little more gentleness. But if there's anyone out there that needs that kind of slap like you're not that special, isn't that a relief? Right? Yes? Yeah, I absolutely needed that because I just I needed I needed to hear that. Again, it gets back to like I am not the only one, and I can get so caught up in my life and my drama and my anxiety and oh my god, isn't this just the worst

thing ever? You know what, maybe if I just took a breath, maybe if I stepped out of my own head for a moment, and maybe if I went and like tried to help somebody else for like fifteen minutes, what would happen? Then? You know? And there are times that I feel like, um, I was in this place where I was being too coddled, where I just needed to be like, Okay, come on, you can do this. And I think it comes from this place of like

we're stronger than we think we are. And that's what I love to tell people, like, you can handle so much more than you think you can handle, and you can handle being uncomfortable. You know, I am not saying choose pain, but what I'm saying is you don't have to run away because things get uncomfortable, Like you can breathe through that. You can handle that, and you can come out the other end not being so scared to

be uncomfortable, and that's when things get really interesting. But once you when you do one thing that makes you uncomfortable and you get through it, oh my god, then you have your own self to keep learning from, so you have proof, oh my god, I can do it. And then you're your mind changes about what you want. Instead of wanting to get rid of this thing, you realize, oh, I can live with this. It actually feels, you know. I used to have it. I mean the fear flying

I had was so ridiculous. It was over the top. And I have flown to Australia by myself three times since then with no panic attack. Now I do have dissolvable clonopin that I do take like, but I'm talking the tiniest amount and it's part of like, you know, keeping my nervous system down. But I'm telling you the panic I used to have before you could have put me under anesthesia and be panicking like it was, and I mean it was just my life was so small because of it, you know, and it opened up my

life to where I felt like such a badass. I felt also like, of course we judge ourselves, so I felt like an do it Like you are in your thirties, you feel like a badass because you got off a plane. I'm like, I do kind of, you know, because greater. Yeah, that is a massive thing to overcome, and it's such I mean, that is such a big deal. And I I think it's so important to celebrate those things because it doesn't matter if on the other side of it

you're like that seems silly. It doesn't matter. In the moment that was very real to you and very painful for you. And so being able to celebrate when we make those steps forward, that that's what it's all about. Tell me about your panic attacks. So I know you had your first panic attack, and I'm so jealous. I could die on the set of night Core, which was my favorite show growing up, and I was probably watching

it having panic attacks myself. So, um, so you're so, I know that it was like the first time you kind of did something in front of a live studio audience. Now, was that what gave you a panic attack? Or do you think you just had a panic attack for the first time and it seemed to all come to a really good question. It's funny because I started working as an actor so young. There's kind of this chicken and

egg situation where it's like, I don't know. I think I was probably just sort of an anxious human and anxious kid. You know now that some of anxiety is just kind of hardwired into your d n A. So I think I was anxious anyway. And then I think some of the stress of you know, having a film career before I hit double digits, you know, that's that's

kind of a thing too. But um yeah, I think, you know, being in front of a live studio audience when all I had done before was you know, commercials and TV shows with single camera, that was nerve wracking. There were a lot of people there, and I hadn't

totally known what I was in for with that. So yeah, panic attack on the on the set a nite cord and then you you felt like you were dying, And did you tell anyone or did that did did your mind just kind of tweaked that day where you just like different forever, if that makes sense, Like now I have a secret. I think I sort of felt like I had a secret, like this was something shaneful that I was looking around and no one else was having a panic attack, and so I just thought, Okay, well,

this is clearly not how we operate around here. Let me just shove this down as as far as it can go and and pretend that it's it's not happening. And it's funny you say, no one else is having a panic attack. Well, you know, I know sometimes they can be pretty intense, but at the end of the day, when you're having one, sometimes no one knows either. Yeah.

So then did they start Because something in your book that was interesting was you talked about a gor phobia and social anxiety, which I want to ask you about, like, did did things start kind of um ramping up after that where the panic attacks becoming more frequent? Yeah, So you know, it would kind of ebb and flow, and so sometimes it would be sometimes it would be a little bit easier, but definitely you know, by the time I got into my late teens, it was really intense.

And also I think that kind of coincided. I did doubtfire when I was fourteen, and so you know, from that point on, I was much more recognizable. So you know, going out in public got much more challenging. I would get mobbed, I would get grabbed, um, I would you know, not be able to get through a meal without people

coming up. So you know, being in public changed a lot when I was about fifteen, and so that I think was it was another thing that kind of helped to um move along some of my my social anxiety and my desires to not leave the house. We'll be right back. Can you take us through a panic attack just for someone listening through, Like, oh, I think I have that, but I don't know. I mean everyone's symptoms very here and there, But what what is the panic attack? Like?

What happens when it starts to come on? And then what is it like at its worst? So for me, I can always tell when panic is coming on because my hands get really tingly and numb. So one thing that you learn when you're learning how to manage panic attacks is looking for the really early physical signs because when you can find those early physical signs, you can kind of catch the panic attack when it's at like a two or three, because when it gets to a nine,

it's really hard to come down from. So for me, I always look for that that tingling in my hands where they start to go a little bit numb, and like, there's all kinds of biological reasons for that. It's about changes in the blood flow. You're kind of going into fight or flight, so the blood is all going to the muscles that are needed to run away from a saber suit tiger, right, So you don't really need to have a lot of blood in your hands for that.

So for me, it tends to start that way. I will get the heart palpitations, my mouth gets really dry. I get tunnel vision, so it's really hard for me to see. It's like I can just see these little tiny pinpoints. Um. I get kind of a ringing, a buzzing in my ears, so I can't hear very well. If someone's talking to me. It's they kind of turn into like the Peanuts cartoon where I can't really make out what they're saying. Um. And then I start sweating

and then I get really dizzy. Um, So at that point I normally tend to sit on the floor because I'm worried going to pass out, so I get as low as I can, and then, you know, mentally at that point, because then it's at like a nine or a ten, right, So I'm like, well, I just have to ride this through. At this point, I know that I'm sort of in it for the panic attack, and then I run through all the facts in my head, which is, this is a panic attack. I have been

through this before. This is not a heart attack and not actually going to die, and at max this is going to be ten minutes. Yeah, but what a long time. And it's right, absolutely, but yeah, you're right somewhere in your brain, your brain is hearing you say that to yourself. And it does work. Just doesn't feel like it's working, but it works. Yeah. But it's I mean, it took me years in order to get to that point where I could at least say those facts to my head, right,

which is like, Okay, we have done this. We used to do this four times a day. Remember, Now we're just it's gonna be a few minutes. We're gonna sit on the floor, lie on the floor, We're gonna try to breathe, and then in a little while we'll get up. Um. But I think, you know, the number of people who end up in the emergency room for their first panic attack is like astronomical because it feels very much like a heart attack. So I think, um, you know, being

able to look out most of the time. Now, when I feel my hands go, I'm like, okay, panic is starting. Let me start my breathing exercises, let me start my mindfulness exercises. Let me try to get something cold. I will grab an ice cube that helps me a lot, or run my risks under cold water. If I'm with someone that I'm comfortable telling, I will say, hey, I'm

having a panic attack. Um. If that person is my husband, he knows exactly what I need him to do in those moments because he has been to me through seventy billion of these UM. So you you know, you learn these tools so that you can you know, you can bring it down if you can catch it in time. And to just say it out loud, I mean it

takes a lot of courage. That was my first assignment with flying go up to the flight attendant before the panic attacks starts and say, I don't need you to do anything now, but I have panic disorder and I might have a panic attack on the flight. Just just saying that out loud because it helps me, and they'll

go okay. And it's honestly, like, sometimes it's just better to be humiliated because if the panic like it's like more overwhelming than the panic, You're like, Okay, at least I'm humiliated, but not panicking, you know, Like anything to just ground yourself, because you're right, that tunnel vision is so evolutionary, and it feels like you're not on the earth.

It feels like you're starting to float away, you know, So anything to ground and and thank god you have such a supportive husband who can say the right that what's the wrong thing that he could say in a panic attack? Calm down, right? People do not say calm down to anybody ever. Really, And this is actually an interesting thing that that, you know, he and I had to work through because what I realized, uh news to me.

He's not a mind reader. He doesn't automatically know the right things to do and the right things to say. So I have a lot of people ask me like, oh, I don't have anxiety, but my spouse does, or my child does, or my friend does. What can I do for them? And what I always say is like you need to have a conversation and the anxious person like it is on us to say, hey, when this happens, this is what I need you to do. This is

what I need you to say. And it feels really like you know dictorial in the moment, but it empowers him to know exactly what I need in those moments when I'm struggling. Because he used to try to hug me when I was having a panic attack, which is incredibly sweet, and it made me want to punch him in the face because I felt like I was being smothered. I couldn't handle the touch, like it was just awful.

And what I was able to tell him is I was like, you know, if you can just take one hand and put it on my back, like near my shoulder blade and just stay right there with me, and and that was what I needed, like I needed to know he was close, but I didn't want to feel like I was being smothered. I wanted to feel that support of the hand on my back and he how was he going to know that? Right? And everyone's different. Yeah, because I actually want to be put in a lock

when I'm panicking. I want the hug. I want to feel like I can't go anywhere, So that would be great for me, but not for you. And so everyone's different, so you have to have the conversation. You know, I'll send him over to your house next time, because he's a really good hugger. Well this, and I know we're out of time, but if I can just pick your brain for a couple more minutes about because you know,

I actually don't know much about social anxiety. Um, I have the thought that everyone does that, like you know, Oh, I just don't like being around people, are going to parties or I don't know what I'll say to someone. And it's like the way you put it in the book, UM is so like it really. I was like, Oh, that's what it is. You said, social anxiety is the intense and persistent fear of being watched and scrutinized by others,

causing extreme self consciousness. It's essentially pathological shyness. And you said it's it's Um, it's a feeling of being constantly embarrassed or humiliated by one's actions, can you know, be paralyzing and and then that can mix with with your go or phobias. So what Yeah, I don't have a lot of experience with that. What what is that like? And how do you cope? It can be incredibly challenging. But I think, like any of these mental wellness issues,

it's something that you can work with. It is something that you can manage. It's something that can get easier if you know what you're dealing with. So I think for me, you know, doing a lot of the cognitive behavioral therapy helped. I think for me, working on my own self confidence helped a lot. And just being able to name it and and really understand what it was

helped me to get more more comfortable being in social environments. Also, I think another thing that's really important is learning how to say no, Learning how to say no to social interactions that make you really uncomfortable, like not feeling obligated to do every single social thing. And I know that's

a big thing for people right now. Ye know now that like we've spent such a long time not socializing and now we're starting to a little bit more and people feel like, well, I you know, I haven't done anything for a long time, so I should say yes to every invitation. No, like no is a complete sentence, just no. You don't have to explain, you don't have to make excuses for yourself. You are allowed to have boundaries around what social interactions you have, and so that

I think can be uh that alone. I think it's really empowering, so that you're really only doing the things that that socially you feel okay about. And I think it's cool, Like, you know what, the pandemic helped me open up conversations with friends of mine that I didn't realize were socially anxious. And you know, we don't lie to each other. You know, it's not um, oh I

have a thing that day. You know. It's like I have friends who are like, I'm comfortable doing this, this and this, don't invite me to that, that and that. And in the same way of like telling your husband what kind of touch you need during a panic attack, I think we can have conversations with our friends because again they're not mine readers. So someone invites you to your third barbecue, you say no. Now they're going to stop inviting you to everything, and you're like, no, I'll

go to your book club. I don't want to the barbecue exactly. I think people are so much more understanding and compassionate than we give them credit for. And hey, if they're not, then there's a friend you know is not really a friend. There's a great weed or outer. So lastly, I just want to know, well, first of all, I love that you going back to your work with with Veterans. I mean, I've listened to the podcast episode where you were talking, um was it Buzzy is his

name to be an un vet? And man, you know that kind of trauma that he's seen and that kind of PTSD that he still has and anxiety. And I think it's important for people with anxiety if people relate to us, oh I'm a writer, to go listen to anything that has nothing to do with what you relate to and hear other people's stories, because again, you know how people will always say, oh, well, how I shouldn't feel bad because other people have it worse. That's not helpful.

Other people don't want you to have it as bad as them. It just that's your moment to get into gratitude for what you do have or you do have control of our just just to know that there's a lot of stories out there, not just ones that are exactly like ours. And I bet it was so scary too to go work with vets and like, I'm not a vet, Why am I going to tell them to draw to? You know, like that must have been so intimidating. It absolutely was. I had not intended on working with

combat vets. That I was doing a lot of writing around anxiety and mindfulness online and car Earl Salazar, who runs Expedition Balanced down in Texas, said, you know, I read your work. Do you want to come down to Texas and and see what we're doing down here with vets? And you know it, it kind of turned into a real passion for me. And I absolutely love working with that community. But I was so insecure about it, like I am a pacifist Canadian vegetarian. What the hell am

I doing hanging out with vets? Right? And so what I think is so beautiful is exactly what you just pointed out. That we can come from such dramatically different backgrounds, we can have hugely different experiences, but we can connect on this deeply human level. Of pain and suffering and joy and gratitude, and how do we get over our past and how do we move forward in an uncertain future? And everybody goes through that. So what are the ways that we can connect even if our stories seem very

very different. I often find people whose stories are nothing like mine the most inspiring because the examples are so stark, you know that, it's like, oh, I get it, okay, I see you know? Um? And then what's so, what's going on right now for you? Are you not doing live things due to COVID It's I've noticed on your website you're doing online anxiety courses. Yeah. So I'm doing a lot online. I have a Yoga for anxiety class that I teach every week. I have a Yoga for

Veterans class that I teach. I am doing mindfulness workshops um. And I am just now starting to do more in person stuff. So I'm going down to a college in Georgia and a couple of weeks to do a talk for them. I'm doing corporate events um. And so you know, it's now kind of this mixture of in person and online, which I think is probably going to stay that way for for a while I miss the in person stuff. And so when you do a talk after, do you lead them through any exercises or is there a Q

and a? Um, there's more work than the talk. I assume it's. Yeah, nobody likes to just sit there and watch somebody talk for an hour. So I really try to do a lot of interactive stuff. We will go through breathing exercises, well, maybe do a little chair yoga. I have all kinds of kind of mindfulness activities that that you can do things like I'm about to have a panic attack, what do I literally do in this moment?

And then we always do a Q and A because, um, I get sick of hearing myself, so I love to hear other people. I love it. I mean there needs to be you need to clone yourself. We need you in every school, every corporation, every everything. It's and you have so much training. I mean those what did you say was like eight hundred hours. Yeah it's been. It's

been a ridiculous amount. Yeah. Yeah, it's like I've I've done my five training of training with with yoga specifically, and then I've done meditation trainings and veteran trainings and yeah, it's amazing. I'm so inspired by your story because I just love the idea of a second act in life. But Lisa, I am just so inspired by you. You're so I just you're so um earnest and just fun that it's really great, like and in the sea of people that are just kind of selling snake oil at

this point, like trying to um monetize the anxiety epidemic. Yeah, I just it's so nice to see such an organic person like yourself who's doing the work. And I'm so grateful you came on the show. Thank you, Thank you. It was this was such a delightful conversation. You're amazing. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed my chat with Lisa Jacob. So let's talk about some of the takeaways from my interview with Lisa, some of the gems

that she gave us. If you deal with your anxiety and depression, it will not make you less of an artist. In fact, it could lead to opening up your creativity even more. If you have anxiety, if you think you suck at meditating with peace and love is Lisa says, you are not special, and that's a good thing because it means you are not alone. You are normal. There

is a solution for what you're dealing with. CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy, and it's a specific form of therapy that almost immediately gives you tools to cope with your anxious thoughts and behaviors. If you can't afford a therapist, you can at least google cognitive behavioral therapy and read for yourself some of the tools that are freely listed online. Lisa mentions that John cabot Zin was who opened her up to being aware of mindfulness and reading his work

started her on her journey. I just wanted to about that for you in case you weren't familiar and you wanted to read his work as well. It's John J. O. N. Cabot k A b A t Zin z I n N. Lisa says, when you're feeling resistant to something something new, or getting help with your anxiety, ask yourself, what would happen if I approached this with a bit more open mindedness and a sense of you know, I'm having a

really hard time, so I'll try anything. If you're caught in your head and caught in your own drama, can you take just one breath? What would happen if you did that? Could you maybe go help someone else for a few minutes to get yourself out of yourself? What would that look like? People with anxiety are stronger than they think they are. You don't have to run away when things get uncomfortable. You are strong enough to be uncomfortable.

Celebrate every single thing that you conquer as an anxious person. Don't belittle your accomplishments. Did you get out of your pajamas one hour earlier than normal? Celebrate it? Did you drive one mile on the freeway when you used to never even be able to get on the on rep Celebrate that? Did you have to panic attacks today instead of five? Celebrate that you're a badass. And lastly, your loved ones are not mind readers, and they may not know how to correctly soothe you during a panic attack

or when you're having anxiety. So talk to them about it. Tell them what you need. Do this when you're not in the middle of a panic attack or a moment of anxiety. Come up with a plan of action so that they know exactly how to show up for you when you're anxious. And that is a form of showing up for yourself. Again, thanks for listening. Everything you need to know about Lisa is in the show Notes anxiety bites,

but You're in control. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,