My "Nerves" Are Bad

I guess my mouth decided to humiliate me on Mike. But I am a little out of sorts. I'm recording this from a hotel room in Palm Springs. I don't live in a hotel room in Palm Springs, so I'm not at home. I'm sort of on a half vacation, um, but working through it as well, so maybe that's what it is. I'm a little out of sorts. But anyway, my guest today is Dr Angela Neil Barnett, and I'll tell you more about her in a moment, and obviously

we will then get to the interview. But thank you all for the great things you've been saying about this podcast. I'm so glad that it's helping people. One of the biggest comments I get is people saying, you know, I thought I knew everything there was to know about anxiety, so I didn't think this podcast would be for me. But I learned something in one of the episodes I listened to, And of course, as someone with anxiety, I think, why did you tell me that? Why are you telling

me you weren't planning on listening to the podcast? And I know the point is they did listen and they liked it. But all I can think about is how many people aren't listening because they think they know everything about anxiety. Well, they're not listening, so I don't even know why I'm addressing them. But but maybe you're one of those people, and I would say, you know, for me, a person with anxiety, I also think, I don't think I know it all, but I think I've heard it all.

I get it. I certainly if I were to learn nothing else of an anxiety, I think I could still live a pretty good life managing my anxiety. But it's amazing how, first of all, I still learn new things by doing this podcast and doing all of the research on my guests and their work and just talking to them. But there's that other great phenomenon where you hear something for the tenth time and it finally hits you. It hits you in a way that you actually relate to it.

You know, we might hear things about anxiety all of the time and think, well, that's what some people have when they have anxiety, but I don't. And you're not lying. You're not in denial. But maybe your life changes, or maybe you were in denial. I don't know, but this one day you go kind I've heard that so many times before, but today it really hit me. You know, we're sometimes we just need something drilled into our skull more than ten times before we actually even hear it

at all. You could have heard something ten times and had no idea and it sounds like the first time. So that I'm just saying, stick with it, stick with the podcast, because if you're anything like me, I just like listening two people talk about a subject I'm fascinated with, which is anxiety. I can't get enough. Anyway, thank you for all of your wonderful comments. Listen, take a minute, give it a five star review in Apple Podcasts write a review. You can just hit five stars if you want.

But if you want to write something, you can write something and it helps it move up the charts. Now, I don't want bragging rights. Oh my god, it's number sixty three in society and culture today. But when people peruse podcasts, they go to the top two shows in the charts, and the more mind stays up there, the more people find it, the more people find it, the more they're gonna let me do this podcast. Now, we do have forty six weeks total in a row of this podcast to do, so you got me through at

least most of two as well. But I want to do more. I want to keep doing this, so review it up. If you to write a negative review, perhaps you could not do that or write it in your diary. No need to make it public anyway. If you guys had any fun today, if you listen to music, Sometimes when I'm anxious, I realized I've had too much talking going on in my ears. I probably shouldn't say this at the beginning of my podcast, which is talking. But after you listen to this school, listen to some music.

But you know what I mean. I always have something on in the background. I'm a real podcast junkie. So even if it's pleasant topics that I'm listening to, I'm hearing voices. Talk doesn't really hit the soul like music does. And Dr Angela today talked about music, even just briefly, but when she did, it just hit me right in the gut and I went it just felt relaxing to think about music and how it gets into our soul and how a huge part of our anxiety recovery is

to enjoy our lives. But something that Dr Angelis said in the early part of our interview is that when people don't do the work on their anxiety because they either don't know they have it, or they they don't think of it as anxiety, or they just don't want to do the work on it, she says, they're not doing the work to become the person they were meant to be, and that that's a sad story. And when she said that, it just it really hit me in

the heart. It is so much more than just getting rid of or trying to get rid of your anxiety. You're trying to manage it. It's so much deeper than that. It is about becoming the big, beautiful person that you were meant to be, and obviously you can do that while having anxiety. Because I'm sure you've heard by now on this podcast anxiety is not something you get rid of, like something you take out and put in the trash. It's something you learn to live with and it doesn't

control you. And now with all of that extra freedom, you don't just stay the same. You get to become the person you're meant to be. There's all this room to grow. I know for sure that that happened in my life. I just never really thought about it that way until she said it, or hadn't remembered that I even went through that until she said it. And so talking with Dr Angela was interesting because she really made

clear the difference between anxiety and panic. You know, um, people just sort of say anxiety attack and it's not There's not really such a thing as an anxiety attack. There's anxiety and then there are panic attacks. So she talks about that, and I haven't really heard anyone differentiate between the two. But one of the through lines of talking to Dr Angela is that the point of life right is joy or one of the many benefits of

life could be joy. It's very hard to have joy when you're busy having anxiety, covering your anxiety, using for lack of a better word, bad tools to handle your anxiety. It's not a lot of room for joy. It's not a lot of time for joy. I mean, it's life and death to get this anxiety and panic managed. And so I guess I invite you to think of working on your anxiety is not just a way to simply less than your anxiety. But now, what what do you do with all that extra room? Right, It's like getting

rid of furniture in your house or something. Oh my god, look at there's all this extra room to I don't know, have a dance party or something. And going back to what I said originally where people say, oh I thought I knew all there is to know about anxiety, Well, you know, listen, as a white woman, I didn't really sit around thinking about race and anxiety in my earlier days of having anxiety, when my world was really small and it was just all about me, me, me, and

how I feel. And oh my god, I'm anxious and I can't go over this bridge, and I can't go over there, and I can't go over here, and I can't do this, and I can't do that, you know, But there are different experiences that different humans have based

on gender, race, so many other things. Right, anxiety is pretty universal, but the way that maybe the gender that you embody, or just the culture that you're in it it may not be looked at the same way, and you might have to overcome extra things beyond the anxiety itself in order to get help know what's going on. And so I think you'll find this interview very interesting because it helps you think, oh God, this is what anxiety can be like for other people. I don't have

the same experience. This is so eye opening, but it's also completely relatable because again, we all have other things in life besides anxiety based on where we grew up, how we grew up whatever, that inform how we recognize,

admit to, or handle our anxiety. And so I think you'll learn a lot from Dr Angela Neil Barnett, who also, by the way, is just a delight like she is, She's just so she's just so joyful and funny that it was just a pleasure to talk to her, Like I was just in instantly a better mood, you know. After I talked to her again, I go back to a comment someone made to me when I first started this podcast. Well, I don't think all these pH ds you have on are going to be all that entertaining.

Oh you are wrong, You are wrong. So my guest today, let's just get to it. Dr Angela Neil Barnett. She's an American professor and child psychologist working at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio. She is a tenured professor at

Kent State University in the Department of Psychological Sciences. She was the first African American woman in the department to be tenured, and we talked about that concept in our interview, about the pressures of being the first dot dot dot and the only dot dot dot, whether it's you're the you're the only Asian person, the only black woman, the only gay person, whatever, among a sea of white people or sit people or street people, the extra anxiety you have.

Well we'll get into it. She'll explain it better than me, but you know what I'm saying. She was the first African American woman in this department to be tenured. As I said in she was the recipient of the Anxiety and Depression Association of America's Gerlyn Ross Clinician Advocate Award. She is the author of the book Soothe Your Nerves, The Black Woman's Guide to Understanding and Overcoming Anxiety, Panic and Fear, which deals with anxiety, panic and fear as

they are experienced by Black women. So there is so much more. Of course, I will put everything in the show notes, all the different ways that you can read about Dr angeliniel Barnett, all the ways that you can get her book. And now this is the way that you can get to hear her talk to me. Is when I shut up and I say, I hope you enjoyed this episode of Anxiety Bites with my guest, Dr

angeliniel Barnett. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. Our guest today, as you already know because I talked about her in the intro, is Dr Angela Neil Barnett. Um, thank you Dr Angela for being here with me today. I'm so excited You're welcome. I'm excited to be here.

I have so many questions for you about you know, a lot of this interview is really going off of your book, Soothe Your Nerves, The Black Woman's Guide to Understanding and Overcoming Anxiety, Panic, and fear, And I'd love to just jump in and start with where your book starts. You know, you mentioned that women are stopping you, you know, everywhere you go or at a certain point in your life.

They're stopping you at church, They're stopping you in the hallways of things and saying, oh, dr, you know, my nerves are bad, my nerves, my nerves, and they want to talk to you. But as you say, they're right to want to talk about it. But overcoming anxiety involves a daily plan of action. And I'm going to ask you about that daily plan of action later. But I really love the opening anecdote that people are calling it bad nerves. Yes, where does that come from? Is that

a cultural thing? Is that a generational thing? Is it? Is it lack of knowing about anxiety? Or is it a denial tell me everything? Well, I think it's a cultural thing. Oh. You know, people are always saying, you know, her nerves are bad, or you're getting all my last good nerves. Uh. It's what we use in the black community, uh,

instead of saying anxiety. And part of that is because we don't know, Uh, we don't hear people talking about anxiety or anxiety disorders, and the closest we might get is, oh, well, he or she has issues. It's a little bit of the nerves. But it sounds worse than anxiety. Though I'd rather someone say I have anxiety than I have issues, Like I couldn't mean anything. Oh well, you know, we're not calling it what it is. And part of us healing and getting better is the first step is calling

it what it is. If you don't know what it is, you don't know what to do to get better. Well, I I heard you say somewhere that you know some people would say, well, anxiety is a white person's issue. Yes, And is that seen as like a pejorative in the sense of like I don't want to be like that or I can't claim it, Like what why is that

a thought? Well, I think it's it's because when people think about I first started doing the work and talking to where we go and we'll talk to groups of people, groups of women, groups in the community about anxiety, and I would ask them about panic attacks, uh, and they were they were adamant that black wood, black women, black folks do not get this, that that it really is

a white person's disease. But then you'll hear people talk about well, I just got so flustered I could talk or that, uh you'll see people with phobias, uh, and that they are having a panic attack in front of you. So I think it's that, um, And I think it comes from several things. A One, how we conceptualize ourselves in the black community, particularly as being strong and anxiety panic is seen as weak. And two I just think that people lay well. I know that people labeled it

as something else. So it's okay to be stressed, and they'll see it as stressed, but they won't see it as anxiety as as as panic, because that's weak and Black people are not weak. That's a white person's disease. Yeah. You know it's interesting too because, um, my grandmother and mom also called things, and I think this is original, called things their nerves, their hormones, And I don't know, I think in my family there was a little bit of a shame about it. Well, I think I think

that's probably true. I think that's probably true. I know that probably the area that is lacking most in black communities, other baby very affluent black communities, are very poor Black communities. Is accurate information about mental health. We just don't give it, and so we continue to use these terms that don't really fit. Who what what has happening? And the shame that you refer to is so strong and uh in black cools and and the stigma is so it's so strong.

People will do everything but and spend tons of money uh to do everything but what needs to happen, which is some form of therapy. You also say at the beginning of your book that you know, when people come up to you, why is this happening? Why are my nerves this? Why? Why? Why? And you're saying, you know, why is the question that can cause more anxiety and fear, And you're saying the key is to asking what. Yes.

The problem with with why is there's never an answer, and you try, you know, and you're so busy trying to figure out why, so you then you start you increase your anxiety. It's a why is this happening to me? So if I stop doing this and it will it will stop happening. And all you're doing is just making the anxiety worse than you're avoiding. Question is what is this? And what do I? What do I do about it?

So many people spend their lives, chasing why that they never do the world to become the person they were meant to be. Uh, And that's uh, that's just a sad story and a sad tale that we hear over and over and over again. I love that you put it that way. The work to become you who you were meant to be. Yeah, I think I think you will forget that. I mean, and once you learn what it is and how to manage it, I mean, the sky's the limit for you. Oh, and you're happier, you're healthier.

That doesn't mean that you might not have a setback, but when you do, you actually know what it is and you know what to do to bring yourself back. And I think it's also what you just said, Jen, in terms of knowing that, uh, you can become the person you were meant to be, the person you want to be so important, you don't have to be bad by anxiety into you. It's so beautiful. And you know, you're one of the only people I've heard that really Um says, well, there's not really such a thing as

an anxiety attack. There's panic attacks. Um, anxiety is something a little different. Tell us the difference between anxiety and panic. Okay, So anxiety is this perception of the future threat. You don't know what, you don't know when, you don't know where, but you just know something is going to happen. And so what it happens is you're in the state of highness the lurk almost all the time, you're just waiting for the other uh shoot the draw. Fear happens in

the presence of the immediate threat. And so in the book, I talked about my mom's good friend who was afraid of cats, and you know, literally we lived out in the country. He would come out. She would call ahead, Uh, there were six of us. My mother would gather all of us and then saying, you're attacks, so she's coming and um. When they see or they believe they're going to see the thing that they're afraid of, then you

see them have the panic attack. And you see people faced with this idea of if there is this perceived threat lurking out there, who also have panic attacks. I guess the good thing about calling it an anxiety attack is people now know, okay, but a're using anxiety at least it's just not an anxiety attack. And so anxiety in our body might feel differently as well. Right, anxiety might feel more like worry and thoughts, and panic is more physical. Panic would be more physical, you would have

the physical reactions. But remember what why sustains a panic attack is the fact that we think we're going crazy, We think we're going to die. Yeah, And what keeps us anxious after all, what what keeps us fearful but keeps us anxious is our minds. The mind is what's funny. You know, when I first started getting help with my panic attacks, someone said, well, no one's ever died of a panic attack, and you know that is of no comfort to someone with anxiety because I'm creative. So I went, well,

I'll be the first. Why not me? Reassurance comfort? Yeah, reassurance doesn't work of anxiety. Uh, what works is actually exposure to the things all that we fear, exposure to the things that make us anxious and realizing particularly the panic attacks, and a panic can only go so high and then it comes down. But both of us never let a panic attack get to its highest. Book we

either avoid or we we do all we work. Some people run around when we do all sorts of things so that we never allow that sensation to dissipate to

come down. I think I could be wrong, but I think I have had my panic hit the highest it can hit because something happens where it almost feels like a spiritual experience where it gets to its height and then your body releases the adrenaline and it just stops and there's a wave of almost shaking it and it kind of comes down and it feels like there was divine intervention and uh, it's it's a very interesting feeling. You can see in that moment. Oh that was all

chemicals this whole time. Well, our spiritual selves play a role in helping us an overcome anxiety. How how so I I believe that too. I I really do. It's it's been something for me that helps with um, just those moments when I feel like I'm going crazy and feel out of control. There's this a spiritual side that I have to also put in my tool kid. I mean, one of the buzzwords right now is mindfulness. Uh and thanks Black prayer and our faith help us in knowing

that we can reclaim our laws. Having some kind of foundation is key for many people. Preven have many Black Americans in terms of saying okay, I can do, but my therapist disasked I can reach out for therapy in some of these cognitive behavioral things that we're being asked to do. Some people said, okay, I was sent to this therapist for a reason, and so what they're asking me to do, even though I'm not quite so sure

about it, I am going to do. And the final thing is that our spirituality gives us faith and faith that we will manage and overcome this anxiety. And to anyone listening, if you're if you don't have a faith, if you're not religious, you know, just think about how the sun rises and sets without your help, and you know, in the middle of a panic attack, you're you're not in control, but there's many things you're not in control.

You are in control of in terms of breathing and all that, but there's many things we're not in control of, and it's it's a beautiful thing. You know. I'm glad I don't have to rise the sun and set it because I would forget. You're glad that you know that there is an unseen hilp exactly, there's there's an unseen force out there that you know in those moments you can choose to believe the universe is a friendly place

that wants you to stop panicking. You know, it's it's really can bring it to tears sometimes if you're self soothing that way, it feels like you're parenting yourself in a way. Anxiety bites will continue. On the flip side of this message from our sponsors. You know, there's two interesting to me that I hadn't thought of, um stories

in your book about black women in faith. So there's the prayer Warrior, which is really actually maybe a symptom of o c D. And then there's the you know, black women can choose to rely on faith, but if you're using faith only and your anxiety is not getting better, then there's a sense of, oh, I guess I don't

believe enough. Um, I'm not doing faith right. So can you talk about that that that it's is it seen as sort of um against God to to get help in away in some in some people's lives, yes, And in some people's lives they believe, uh that if you just pray hard enough, if you live right, you won't get anxious to either you won't get anxiety. I mean, I tell the story in the book. How you know. I was there and talk about anxiety and pretty much

the minister's satatashm me. Uh. He said, you know the guys on Jesus, you won't mean those psychologies, you know. Oh my God, Okay, why do I do? Now? You know? What did you do? How did you redirect? I told the story of Jesus and the Garden of Cassimone. And if that's not a panic attack, I don't know what it is. Um. You know uh, I mean throughout the Bible, there are people who reach out for mental health health uh.

And it's not that uh they're healed instantly. It's that there are people who are sent to them who pretty much just serve as therapists uh for them to help them, uh move on to the next level of their life. The belief is that somehow psychology is not biblical. Uh. And I'm not a I'm on a seminarian, but I know psychology when I read it, and I know that it is in the book of the of the Christian thing. There really is this of the stigma about mental health

in the black community. And that's because first of all, we get miss diagnosed all time, uh. And that that's been across decades. And what happens is that Black Americans

still today get the most severe diagnosis. So if you have a white American and a Black American and they're both having panic attacks, but the diagnosis that the white American gets is a lesser diagnosis than they'll get the panic all the having panic attacks, whereas the Black Americans will get uh panic disorder superimposed on other major disorder, and which may not be the case. Um So, so it's a stigma in the black community that mental health

is crazy. So if you are relying on something other than fate and prayer, then you must be straight up crazy. It takes a lot to be crazy. An anxiety disorder does not qualify in any way it's crazy. Well, you know that's so interesting you said that, because yeah, that is the number one thing that happens when I have panic attacks, and I've heard from other people, I feel like I'm going crazy. And it's like, well, thoughts are not at sans. Are you running through the street with

a samurai sword? No, you know, are you naked showing up at the office. No, You're probably not crazy because you're just thinking, just thought, are you hearing voices that tell you to harm yourself? Are you having troubled distinguishing uh reality from fantasy? I mean those are the things. Those are severe mental illness, and anxiety is not severe mentals. And it's harmful to people because it's it extends the length of the anxiety and particularly for for for Black Americans,

for Black women. What we know, but anxiety disorders are more chronic and the symptoms are more severe, and the stigma that keeps us from going to seek hill keeps us in bondage longer. If I was using faith terms. Yeah, well, tell us tell everyone about your research. Your a tenured professor at Kent State University in the Department of Psychological Sciences. Um, tell us about currently what your research is between anxiety and and it's it's mainly Black women, right, It's mainly

Black women and girls. And I direct the Program for Research and Anxiety Disorders among African Americans. And the acronym for that is product. So we look at a couple of things. When things to look at aspects of black culture that may lead to the development of anxiety disorders. So we look at a phenomena called acting white, which has nothing to do with wanting to be white and everything to do with what does it mean to be black?

So when you're accused of acting white, what happens is is that someone who is black thinks that your racial identity basically is not black enough. Uh. I could do a whole podcast on that. And so what happens is that people you know, just uh, what we now know is that this accusation of acting white conserve as a formal bullying and so of racial bullying, and so that we see it plays a role in the development of

social anxiety. That's what most other people think or I think other people will think X. So that's part of what we do. Uh. The other part we do a lot of intervention work. We find that we have these women with anxiety disorders. And when we started, PTSD was and anxiety disorders now a separate disorder PTSD. I let you know that, Yes, in the DSN five it's a

separate category. But what happens is as we go out and we teach people how to implement feeds interventions, we consistently here that people didn't know if there was a name for what they were experiencing. It was what they thought life was supposed to be. Can you imagine living and not knowing that that life wasn't supposed to be this way? But there was help available. And when we investigate further, what we find is we find intergenerational or

multigenerational anxiety. So my mother had panic disorder, her mother had panic disorder, HERBA. So we get all of these people who think this is the way life supposed to be. Just the idea that it's not supposed to be this way is absolutely free for them. So that's what we do. We've been doing a lot of work with pregnant black mothers. The different mortality rate is awful for black moms. Uh.

The maternal morbidity rate is even worse. And the head of Adula Agency locked on my door one day and said, everybody said, I should come talk to you, uh, because we're seeing all these mothers and to us, they look stressed and anxious, but the researchers keep telling us that they're not. But everybody said you could help us. And of course they were stressed and anxious, and even more

of them had PTSD untreated. But the fact was, when you gave them the standard instruments that hadn't been normed or hadn't been developed for Black Americans, then they under recorded what was happening, got it. So they're answering in that way of this is just how life is. Yes,

that's an exactly what was happy. So a lot of what we do is now that we know this, how we intervene in ways that make it accessible to as many people as possible, make it culturally competent so that people will come and make sure that it's effective, so you know, people get better. I'll tell you what we do run into is women who say to us, if I start thinking about this, and I have to think about everything else, and I just can't allow that to happen.

So if I start thinking about my anxiety, I have to start thinking about what what would be everything else be in the case all the other strussures in my life on it, uh, you know, and then I can't keep being strong and I can't allow that. Well, I hear a lot of times is I gotta keep keeping on because I can't tell But how are you going to tell a black woman just don't be hyper vigilant when she's going to go into a store and someone's gonna follow her around the shoplifting or you know, how

does that work in quote real life? I don't tell them that, we don't say that, but we build that in. We don't pretend that systemic racism doesn't exist. And the fact is is that for many Black Americans, uh, they live in two worlds. They will foot in two worlds. So they may be working in a white world, uh and then living in a black world. You know, they have to go eight hours negotiating a white world. And that's where we talk about mask wearing. It comes from

Paul Laurence done of our phone. We wear the mask, you know, who are you at work versus who are you when you leave work? And that many Black Americans, men and women oftentimes are the only one. So we talked about the anxiety of the only because the only one in the department, you know, the only one in the building. Uh. And that creates a great deal of stress and anxiety, and learning how to deal with that is an important piece for for people. You have to

address it, yeah, because it's reality. Well, you mentioned in your book to that for black women sometimes getting hired somewhere, it's like, oh a two for one, We've got two minority categories, you know, and you know there must be so much stress of everything I do, I'm representing all black people. Everything I do, I'm representing all women. And you know, it's insane to think of being the only person of color or only women, are only one in

in a work environment where there's just something. You know, in my industry, there's a lot of jobs that are mainly white men, and being in the only one in a room for me would be like being the only woman or something. But being the only one in the room is weird because they're also comfortable because they have each other. They don't even know it. It's not conscious right for the white people that they're just it's just

normal to them. And so whereas if you're the only one, you're constantly thinking, I can't say this, I can't say that, how will they see me? They have no idea the the negotiating going on in anyone else's head. No, they haven't,

they have They have no idea. The story I tell us about one of my um colleagues who was a different department, different building, denying that I was in, and one day she just up and moved her office to the Department of Black Studies, and you never ever she just moved off, not not for feeling mean, but she just I cannot do this anymore. Yeah, and yet it only showed up in the building where she was tenured to teach your classes and then went back to an

environment where she did not have to be. And only like you said in your book that you know this. This stuff can physically take a toll on people and and it's bad for productivity as well for the company. Yes, I'm looking on the number because it's gone up during the dual pandemics. But you know again, billions of dollars are lost each year by companies and corporations because of anxiety,

uh and black anxiety. It can take some toll. I mean people get to the point where they don't even realize that they're assessing the scene before they know, before they becomes part of what you do. Yes, it's second nature as as and only well have you heard of any research or anything going on where companies are trying to change this? Are there any changes coming in this area? I think last summer or you know, the summer of twenty um people made it at least overtures to be back.

But we found is that for some people it was just overtures and for some people, for some companies, it really was they were they were dedicated to doing this, but the reason that they had to do it was because their black employees just said no more, yeah and challenge them, uh and said you got to do something. You have to do something. Some people did things like

form health equity centers within their corporations and companies. But I don't think we'll know the impact of those for another five years because we'll see are they making an infect So are you doing the work that will allow you to retain your black employees. I do a lot of work in corporations, but I am an academic. My university said we're going to hire, you know, a cohort of black faculty, and some department said, you can't make

us higher black faculty. Oh my god. Well my answer would have been, that's correct, so therefore you don't need this position. You know, that would have been my answer. That's not the here today, we're given the best. You know, you don't got to hire anybody, but you know, these

are black positions. Here's what's going to happen. Um. But you know, again, I mean, and part of that, part of that pushback comes from the lack of understanding and a belief about a black employee, whether they be faculty or or or they be lawyers, will they be accountants or whatever, that somehow that blackness makes them suspect or not as good at what they do. And that again knowing that contributes to anxiety of the development of anxiety.

So some people never going in, but being in that situation day in, day out, for many people creates even if it's smideld, some form of anxiety, and I imagine that can lead to depression. Yeah, like if that kind of anxiety is on your shoulders, that that cannot just flow right into depression. Yes, depression sometimes looks different in

Black Americans. And so one of the things will be whenever I see an angry black woman or somebody who characterized as an angry black woman, I want to know if I'm what I'm seeing is actually irritability, which is a formal depression, or if I'm seeing social anxiety. And so the anger is kind of a shield from people actually finding out that I'm actually anxious. We'll be right back and for you, you were the first African American tenured professor right at at Kent. Yes, I was the

first African American. I'm full professor, which is the top of the line in professor gut uh. So I was the first full professor in my department. I was the first full professor in my college. And I remained that way for ten years until September. But at least in my college, they promoted people to full professor. And when the university celebrated it's one hundred year, that was the first year that they actually promoted any Black woman to

full professor. Oh my god. So are there conflicted feelings in a way about that where it's like I do again, And because the Lane who was promoted to full professor fought too famail to get it and it was denied at twice and so again. And that's the story. I mean, her story is not unique. These are the stories of black women across the country. So its fuel. It gives us a sense of reality to some of the fear, some of the things that it that create anxiety for

black women because we all know someone it happened too. Yeah, when we look at a Black American culture, if i'm its collective, you know, so that when um, when one of us succeeds, all of us succeeds. I mean, I think about the people who came before me, and now I'm at the age rundload. I came before a lot of people, but I think about that, and so I think about the people coming be looking before me and

the people who are coming after me. And I think the way that many of us look at this is that we're paving the road so it's easier pro those who are coming behind us. And I think that's what tempers us from being resentful. We paved road. It should not be as hard for my children and my children's children, and my children's children should be easier. And that sense of collectivensm my biggest very. It plays a role in

tempering uh many Black Americans anxiety. And you also talked about the difference between black and white anxiety and that white women do something called tend and be friend. Yeah, so you know, in the face of a stress, white women on tended be for that uh door. Neil Hrston said that black women were the mules in the world that are carry everyone's bird, you know, And so it's white women tend to be friend and then that's it, and black women tend to be friend, keep it all in,

keep it all, keep it all. Yeah, So that that goes to that strong black woman, Yes, a strong black woman, um black women of a certain age level movie called Imitation of like have you e receive it? I haven't known. You have to watch it this even older version which is very very different than the I think that's one of the one that most people watched from the sixties,

but the one is from the thirties is different. But what is what is he in each version is that there's says, there's this white woman and there is this uh, there is this black woman who is her maid basically or her cook or or and uh. The black woman has a daughter who can pass. And the daughter does does pass. She's very the daughter is very ashamed that her mother is black, and the daughter wants to be

to be white and passes as white. And in the sixties version, the mother with the black mother gets sick and they have to find the daughter to come and be with her. So the black mother says two things that that stand out for black woman in this movie. One is what the black mother says, ji the day she gets married, at the day that she dies, or the two most important days. The woman's life. Okay, that was on her death bed, okay. And you know in most of even different scenes, he are saying, go to

the light. We love you. You know, we know that God is waiting for you, etcetera, etcetera. This woman is dying and the white people around her bed are saying, you keep dieing, You can't die. How are we going to move forward without you? So you know, when you talk about a strong white woman, you when Kenny and die in peace, you know people are loving to want them,

to help them, even on their death bed. And of course she has the most Gritish funeral, four white horses, character to glory and be Hailior Jackson seeing at her feeble she gets to heaven and a white woman needs help. That's the sequel. It's about being a strong black. I mean, she is the strong black woman. You know, they're getting ready to be evicted and she you know, she talks the milk man and the plandlord. I mean, she saves everyone in the movie, including the Noble Daughter, but she

cannot save herself. You cannot save herself. And that's what happens with strong black women. We saved everybody, yeah, but we don't save ourselves. And so I don't think we should should throw out being strong black women. I think we should use the parts that are really good about doing that to help us as we take that journey to overcome exide a normalst of the time. A couple of things, Um, you talked about anxiety specific to black women. And I was fascinated with this because I've never heard

anyone talk about this, which right, which writing? And I experienced sleep process and so I said, now's ever talked about this? But um, yeah, which writing, which I had never heard, Um, can we talk about sleep promise is an anxiety that's called witch writing? Yes, so uh, you know, people who were raised themself talk about wit writing, or some people might say, I hate out ahold of me.

Um and and and what happens is just as you're falling and sleep or just as you're breaking up, your feel as if you can't move, uh, and then you have these kind of hypnogogic hallucinations, and of course you panic. And so what we know is that this occurs in all cultures. People say, oh, I've had that experience, Yeah, but what happens with Black Americans isn't recurred. So they have it over and over and over again, and it's almost akin to a nighttime panic at hitt and most

people effects occur at night as well. So uh, it's just a form of anxiety but steeped in folklore, but is actually again akin to having a panic attack, which is right and you because what happens is it you've done somebody wrong, where you've done something, you've done wrong, and so you get you know, because you've done wrong, but which right until you do roight? Uh? And that's the folklore. Uh. And some people just dismissed it until we really began to look at it and say, hey,

you know, this is related to anxiety. This is Parker anxiety. And it's interesting that anxiety happens more tonight because it's kind of our defenses are down a little bit. Anxiety it is time to get our attention. I don't know if anxieties trying to get our attention and a little bit of phrase it like that. Uh. But you know, one way to think about it is uh that that our defenses are down. So lastly, um, let's talk about only plans of actions. UM. Finding a therapist advice for

loved ones who live with someone with anxiety. What should people put in their tool kit? How can their friends and family help them, how can they find a therapist? And what can they do every day? So first of all, I think, if you have to call it what it is, you have to call this what it is. Secondly, why tell them I go out and talk to people about finding a therapist? I tell them it's the same way that you find a hair dresser or a barber if

you're black. You know that's great, Yeah, to think about it in those terms, and none of us would go to a therapist, would go to a hairdresser or barber who didn't know how to do black cap. You want to find a therapist who is culturally competent. Many of us want black therapists, but there aren't enough of us to go around. We just you know, they just aren't. It. It's like two of us our psychologist us, one person of us are psychiatrists, and four person of our social

workers counselors. So no, none of us exists. So cultural competence, which means they know how to do black hair and they've actually done black hair but just didn't study it in school. They've done it, so they've had at least one client who is black. The other thing you want to understand is that the gold standard of treating anxiety and its disorders is cognitive behavioral therapy. So somebody who wants to do well, have you lay on a couch

and psychoanalyze you. That's not the type of therapy that you want for anxiety disorders. You want Cargian behavioral, which is understanding the connection between your mind and body. And if you want a Christian counselor, then they also will be doing cognitive behavioral therapy as well. If they understand stand that. Okay, and Finns and family, you know, we're not going to reassure people reassure it doesn't work, as I said earlier. But what we do do is we

support them in their journey of healing. And the other thing we do, but again we're doing against a certain types of social anxieties. That is that while we're supporting, we don't serve as that safe person anymore. We encourage them to go out and do the things their therapists has has told them, as has suggested that they do. But we don't run to the store for them because they're feeling a little anxious Uh, okay, Well, you know, I'll ride along with you, but you're going you're the

one who goes in the store, not me. Or I'll go into the store with you. But those kinds of things. Uh. And then I think the way you start your morning affects the way your day goes. So most of us get up in the morning when we start scrolling through our phones. Yeah, don't do that. So you might want to get up in the morning. You may want to start out with music because what's playing music or program or whatever it is or smart device to play a

song that has positive meaning for you? Uh. We all have all sorts of apps now for everything, so you can do ten minutes of yoga, or ten minutes of mindfulness, or or ten minutes of workout. We now know the research now tells us those things are very helpful in terms of anxious negative flos. I'm a big yoga fan because everythings you're gonna do in ten minutes. And then you know, it's almost become cliche because everybody is saying

it will just give yourself grace. But I would say that for those of us who are black Americans, we have to think back to what a Wreatha tells us, and that grace leads us home. Home is the place where we are our best selves. And that, as we call it, what it is when we ask for help, when we follow through with that help from the standpoint of anxiety, we become our best selves. I love that, and it takes us back to where we began. That that's why we want to get better, right. And thank

you for reminding me about music. It's so easy to start the day with talk. You know, podcasts, people talking music just cuts through. Yeah, what is the same? Music sumes the savage beasts, um, So all of those things are just so important. Thank you Dr Angela for for talking to me today. I hope everybody learned so much. And is there anything you'd to promote in addition to your book soothe your nerves? I always promote good mental health. And there's no sin and shame in asking for help.

That the sin and shane comes, but we don't ask for help. We keep it in and it begins to really seep into our spirits. I love it. Thank you again for being here. Are you welcome? I would be loved my chat with Dr Angela as much as I did. And again, she says she is not here to promote anything but good mental health. But again, if you want to learn more about her, please visit all of the links in the show notes. Now, let's talk about some

takeaways from this episode with Dr Angela. First of all, Dr Angelis says that when you refer to your anxiety as your nerves or as stress, you're really not on the road to healing and getting better. The first step is to call it what it is, anxiety, and if you don't know what it is, then you're not going to know what to do to get better. Anxiety and panic attacks they are two different things. Often people say anxiety attacks. There's really no such thing as an anxiety attack.

There's anxiety and then there are panic attacks. Dr Angelis says, when asking questions about anxiety, do not ask why. The problem with that is that there's never an answer, and when you're trying to figure out something that there's no answer to, you're going to increase your anxiety. So enough with the why. The question you want to ask is what what is happening? And what am I going to do about it? Then you're on the road to getting help,

healthier and healthier. That's right, everybody. Oh my god, why do I think I can speak for a living healthier and happier Anxiety defined is simply the perception of a future threat. You don't know what, you don't know when, and you don't know where, but you just know something is going to happen. It's like being in a constant state of waiting for the other shoe to drop again. The most common thing that people having a panic attack think is I'm going crazy. I'm crazy. This means I'm crazy.

Dr Angela wants to remind you to ask yourself in those moments, am I having thoughts of seriously harming myself? Am I having trouble separating reality from fantasy? That is severe mental illness? But a panic attack and anxiety are not severe mental illnesses. Nobody has ever died of a panic attack. Faith and psychology do not have to be two separate things in the sense that you cannot pray your anxiety at way, and it does not mean you don't have enough faith if prayer isn't taking care of

your anxiety. Dr Angela wants us to know that black Americans get misdiagnosed all of the time, compared to white Americans. A white American could get diagnosed with having anxiety or having a panic attack, whereas a Black American we'll get diagnosed with a panic disorder or something even bigger superimposed on some other major disorder, which may not be the case. The mythology of the strong black woman can cause a lot of anxiety, which can also lead to depression. Anxiety

and panic is intergenerational, multigenerational. Your mother could have had panic disorder than your grandmother had panic disorder. So not only do we inherit it, but we can see by being raised. Oh, this is the way life is supposed to be. Dr Angela wants you to start your day with something positive that you can do right when you wake up before the anxiety has a ants to hit play a song that puts you in a positive mood.

She says, as cliche as it sounds, do some yoga, do a workout, even if it's just ten minutes, it can help redirect the course of your day. And again, don't forget to give yourself a little bit of grace. Thank you again for listening to anxiety bites. Just remember anxiety bites, but you're in control. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.