Love and Re-Action

finding love. All of that, and so I thought that it would be cool to do too Love episodes back to back around the Valentine's Day season, because even if you're single and Valentine's Day doesn't torture you personally, even though you don't sit at home in February, a team thinking, oh, I wish I was at an overpriced dinner right now with a million other people in a packed restaurant during a pandemic. I mean, that is the height of romance.

Even if you're not actually lamenting that you're not taking part in this holiday, the pressure exists. And you know, we talk about how Instagram has been really bad for the mental health of teenagers because they see perfect images and it can cause eating disorders, and it can cause even feelings of um feeling suicidal. For adults, I think

this same thing exists. I mean, obviously it does. We all have Instagram, and I think it reduces us to, you know, teenagers when we look at it in the sense that you may be feeling fine on Valentine's Day until you look at an Instagram and you see your friends and they're all at something. You know, oh my partner got me this, and oh and so much love.

Then I look at these roses and blah blah, and even though you might not want that stuff, even if you were in a relationship, you would issue Valentine's Day and say, I really don't need the pomp and circumstance of Valentine's Day. I can celebrate our love any day of the week. I really truly do not want to go to an overpriced restaurant. It's it's too much. And you know what, they're not even gonna let us sit there and linger because they got to turn over the

tables because there's a reservation list a mile long. And I really don't even like red roses, and they prick your fingers anyway, and you know, I don't I don't even like chocolate. This none of this appeals to me. But then you see someone you know in an intimate moment with their partners, showing you only the best of their relationship, and you get that paying of not jealousy that you want literally what your friend has, or that you don't want them to have it, but just what's

wrong with me? And if at all, listening to these episodes helps to normalize that nothing is wrong with you. Everybody is sometimes singles. Sometimes in a relationship, it's it's ed as it flows, but sometimes there are actual reasons why if you are looking for a relationship that you might find yourself kind of hitting the same wall over and over. And we'll talk more about that next week

when I talked to a therapist about attachment styles. But this week with Chelsea, I thought it was fun to look behind the person that she's been and that she's presented, you know, over the last decade. And obviously none of this is an exclusive. She does this herself in all of her work and her social media and her comedy. But I've known Chelsea intimately for at least fifteen years. She used to be my boss. I wrote for her on the show Chelsea Lately. I appeared on Chelsea Lately

and after Lately. I've toured with her and she's a friend of mine, and so what I loved about chatting with her is how from going to therapy, I can see how differently Chelsea handles intimacy. I can guarantee you if I had done this interview before her years of therapy, well, I wouldn't have had reason to, because we I've talked about things she learned in therapy. But hypothetically, if I had, she would have been kind enough to agree to do it.

She would have had fun in her own way doing it, but there'd be a lot of turning the focus on me, I think, and a lot of joking, but kind of you know, that kind of joking that pushes rather than pulls someone in. And now she really is very different than than she used to be. I sense this ability in her to have this intimacy and connection, and she doesn't seem afraid of what might be thrown at her, which probably sounds weird to people that don't know her.

I mean comedically, no, not afraid of anything being thrown at her, but but as a person I've always thought, I know you can go deeper. I know you can go deeper, and and she has. And so I've been in her life throughout all of her um significant relationships and as she has with some of mine, and it's always been interesting to me that sometimes she seemed like just like just uncomfortable, not into the relationship she was in, and you could misdiagnose that as, oh, she is intimacy issues,

you know. And I was going through similar things in my relationships and I was definitely, I think, misdiagnosed a few times with intimacy issues. And by misdiagnosed, I mean just that kind of popular wisdom I don't really mean by a therapist, but that popular wisdom, Oh, you're not really feeling connected to your partner, who we all love, we think is great intimacy issues and it's like, sure,

let's take it apart. Maybe there are some intimacy issues, but it doesn't mean you're with the right partner, and if you work on your intimacy issues, things will go swimmingly with that partner. If someone has intimacy issues, they're most likely also picking the wrong partner. So that kind of sloppy in between where we're kind of listening to just you know, colloquial things people say. I think you

can keep a lot of us stuff. So I wanted to talk to Chelsea from the other side of all of this growth and find out, you know, as someone who really never copped dabbing any anxiety, or maybe she didn't think she did, but there are deep hurts in her life that she hadn't looked at. And you know, she was on a mission to become successful and she wants and it's but at the end of the day, that doesn't cure those deep wounds that we have to

work on by going internally and doing the work. And so I wanted to show a real life example of that and then also celebrate that she's in love and she's telling everyone and I think it's great now. A lot of times it can be very annoying when people do that, and I think it's because when some people are doing that, they are trying to prove it to themselves.

And just because I've known her for so long, I honestly know the difference that she's just trying to bring everyone into it, if that makes sense, you know, if you want to be inspired that you'll find someone like she did. You can be inspired if you want to be inspired by well, it takes this much work to get to know ourselves so that we can have healthy relationships with just all people be inspired by that. I mean one of the things right that people do on

Valentine's Days, Gallantine's stating hang out with their girlfriends. And I don't know why this is restricted to women, but maybe we're the most victimized by this holiday. I don't know, but uh. Chelsea and I also talked about the intimacy of friendships and how that actually is as important as it's It's as important, you know, on the road to finding out how to do intimacy in relationships romantic relationships. So anyway, I hope you enjoy my discussion with Chelsea.

She needs no introduction, but I will remind you that she is the best selling author of many books. Her latest is called Life Will Be the Death of Me and You two, and we do reference a story in that book about her brother. Chelsea is also on a stand up tour right now all over the country, selling out. It's called the Vaccinated and Horny Tour, and she recently won a People's Choice award in for Best Comedy Act Award, and oh how could I forget? She has her own

podcast here on I Heart Radio. Um, we're all just one big, happy family here on iHeart Radio. She's got her own podcast on iHeart Radio called Dear Chelsea, which you can check out after you listen to this episode, of course. And here is my conversation with Chelsea Hamlet. Are you still in therapy? Chelsea? Let me let me make one more comment about that. I mean, isn't it ironic that Paul Rod just got crowned with the sexiest man alive like People magazine cover, while he's also playing

the most unfussable character and the world totally. And I think I guess that's the that's the sum total of his sex appeal, is that. I mean, I'm personally not all up in arms about him, but you know, I because people find him sexy. Yeah no, I don't. I actually find his character sexier than him in a weird way because he's so fu U. I find Will Ferrell sexy. I love He's just so great that he's fuckable, you

know what I mean. He's such a good guy that whatever he's he's I love him He's so vulnerable in that show that it almost hurts to watch. Sometimes. I feel so sad, and I'm glad that it's I'm glad that the real story has been settled, and I'm glad it's not really happening right now in real time. UM So, speaking of therapy, Chelsea, Handler, you are in therapy? Continued continuant, continuant. I'm a god fucking no, never mind, definitely not the Chelsea.

Are you in therapy right now? No? Uh no, I'm not in therapy right I haven't been for a while now. UM. I mean, like, if I have something come up and I think I need help with like a conversation or something, I'll call him. But I haven't done that in a long time. And I really think that therapy is something that you have to do for at least for me. But I would I would guess it's probably this way for many people. That you have to sit and absorb and absorb and absorb, and then you have to go away.

Just like you had to go away from your parents, you need to go away from your therapist and absorb everything that you heard and learned about yourself. It's interesting because I've known you forever. I used to work for you, and I just I can't believe I'm sitting or having a conversation with you about therapy. I mean, you were sort of in therapy when I worked for you, but no,

I was never in therapy, not for real. Like well, I remember one day you came into my office with a cocktail and you were like, what are you doing tonight, Jen, And I was like, oh, I don't know, and You're like, I have therapy and I was like, you're having a cocktail. You know, it was not it was not the same um. You know, you didn't put your weight behind it like you did this time. And I know that we know this from your great books and from your special but

what made you? I mean, I am in shock. I just really thought, you know, you're just kind of set in your path and and you're not gonna go. Not that I was sitting around thinking you should go, but I think everyone should go. And for someone who was so open minded about so many things, I feel like that did come to you late, like later than other things,

in that sense of like I really want to explore myself. Well, I think I just had so much success being an asshole that there was really no reason to explore it, you know what I mean, right, Like it was everything was great, So what what's the problem? You know? And so you have to like really get to know yourself and your thoughts and then like you know, asking yourself

more big girl questions. Yeah, I think I'm a late bloomer too, in terms of that, in terms of falling in love, in terms of therapy, like things didn't come to me, even though I'm fast and quick, and i'm you know, like I'm I'm very like, uh, immature in many ways or naive even um. So yeah, I'm just as surprised as you are. I was just like, oh god, you know, because and now it's it's just so cliche. And I feel like the reason why I advertise and talk about all of that stuff so much is to

de cliche it, because you know, it's it is. It's true. Like that's what happens when you grow up. You start to have you know, self awareness or the desire for it and self examination and you know, better late than never. I think you did it at the perfect time because you had the free head space and the free time and and was there deep pain down there Chelsea or

just pain that you didn't even know was there. Well, I think the pain of losing my brother and never being able to discuss that in a grown up way or in an in a child like way like as a nine year old girl. As my therapist thing to me, you don't understand what's happening and you are not able to digest it. So, yes, there was a deep pain going on my brother abandoned me. In my brain. You know, my emotional reaction to my brother dying was that of

a nine year old girl. So to be able to kind of revisit that in a serious way, which is you know, unpleasant, and and go through it, you're like, oh, okay, at least I'm doing like some really like respectable work here, or trying to get to the bottom of any of my shortcomings or abrasiveness or lack of consideration towards things. You know. It's just it's like, I I what is that quote. I think it's probably an Oprah quote where it's like everything works for you until it doesn't. And

I never understood what she was talking about. I'm just like, what does that mean? But it's what I'm saying, right. It's a lot of people um, I have friends in a they have a similar quote. It's like, you know, the drinking worked for them until it didn't. It's not like their years of getting wasted wasn't helping what they were trying to achieve, which was peace and you know,

feeling confident or whatever. But yeah, all of your what, whether it was avoidance or I don't know whatever, being snarky or because you said being an asshole, that worked. It helped keep those feelings away until I mean, you have everything you ever could want, and there's that pain that's still there. I imagine that's that's what you're saying. Yeah, And I had a really ugly breakup. I was dating this ridiculous person and I we we just like we we broke up, and I hated the way that I

had behaved in that relationship. I was embarrassed about my behavior, Like everything I represent I was kind of betraying. And I was like, wait a second, that's just being in that relationship alone. You need to talk about You have to have a conversation about what your patterns are and what you're willing to tolerate because it was just so not me. And so that was I think if you coupled that with the election and just this natural surfacing

of delayed grief. You know it's gonna come. It's gonna come when you're in a vulnerable spot in your life, right and you're in between things. I think I just left some show and was starting another new thing. So I think all of it goes together pretty, you know, pretty logically well. And and I do want to talk about I've told you before the show that this relationship, that this relationship. I told you that this episode will

be about love and relationships. And I find it fascinating that, you know, I think to us it makes total sense, and we're both pretty therapized. But I'm just picturing someone listening who's never been to therapy maybe can relate, thinking, well, I don't understand what her brother dying has to do with love relationships, And to me, it's so obvious. When I was reading your book, Life Will Be the Death of Me, I actually listened to it. It was making

me cry. Just my god, the way that your brother treated you is how everybody should be treated in a relationship. You know, just that uncon aditional love, the playfulness bringing out the best of you. And then you know he says he's going on this hiking trip and you're saying, well, we don't. Families don't do things alone. What are you doing? And the fact that it was the first time he had ever vacation without you guys, and he's saying, no, I'll be back, I promise, and he died and didn't

come back. And it's like, there's so many things there that you know, I realized now through therapy would of course make it hard to attach with people romantically. You know, my my armchair therapist self right now, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. Is yes, you're so worried about being abandoned again that it's not even as simple as you're afraid to love. But you might as well pick people that if they did abandon you, you wouldn't

even give a ship, you know. But then it can get sticky because even if those types do abandon you, it's still abandonment and you do give a ship, and then that's confusing. In are you relating at all? Yeah? Absolutely, I think it's like I just read that book Attached, I think, which talks about being in a void it in a secure or an anxious right and an anxious and an avoidant kind of go together because they feed

off of each other. One doesn't want to get too close and the other one is like, why can't we be closer? And then you're secure, and you're like, oh, secure, sounds good, like you know when you're you know, I recognized so many parts in each of those kinds of like descript or characterizations in myself. But yeah, it's a definite pattern of behavior when you've been abandoned, and you know it's not a being abandoned, but in your emotional

intellect it is. And then you know subsequently, then my father completely just like disappearing from faith the face of the earth, because you could never recover. After my brother died, so it was like I lost my two closest men, and so from then on it's like, of course I don't trust men. The two most important men in my life disappointed me and betrayed me, and of course I will never ever let a man have that much power over me again. Like you said, it's it's the feeling

that you were abandoned. Obviously, your brother didn't do it on purpose, and your father, of course I didn't do it on purpose. But so we take our nine year old selves, and we take that maturity in that area, which is not much with us into our thirties into our forties. But you're completely capable in so many other ways. You know, you're you're famous, you have a great career, you have great friendships, and it just seems bizarre that there's like almost this little kid trapped inside of you,

and there's a wonderful childlike quality to you. But then when that child is abandoned, it's like, now the lashing out happens. You know, every which way I imagine that must have happened in I don't know, did it happen in romantic relationships when you felt abandoned or did you just not even give a ship? Yeah? Of course. You know, if they were all too into me, it was annoying, And if they weren't into me enough, then I was

desperate for their attention. Um, you know, eventually everybody ended up annoying me to the point where I was done and you know, rejected them. But I mean, the last big relationship I had, I knew I wasn't going to have another big relationship anytime soon because it was so demonstrative of how unhealthy of a place I was living in like, there's just no way that would be exacting. I would never allow any of my friends to go through that, And yet I was sitting there doing it.

Is this the one I knew about? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Andre Andrea? Okay, I didn't know. If I didn't know if we were naming names. Well, I mean, it's not like it's totally public. So I love the idea of like shrouding the true if it's like whatever. I was, you know, there for that, And it was sort of

this on again, off again thing, very glamorous. You know, he's landing a helicopter on a roof and whisking you off and and you know, it seemed perfect for you at the time because it didn't seem like you wanted to, you know, settle down anytime soon, and it just seemed like, oh, she could go on like this forever, you know. And

I had no idea that. Of course I didn't even know about this stuff yet, but that you know, the avoidant and the anxious are you guys are probably switched in places sometimes too with anxious right, And it's like everyone else from the outside, it probably seems so glamorous and fun. And it was glamorous, you know it was it was we did do that. We would like fly

for the weekend of Paris or go to Prague. Well no, I've never been to Prague, so that's not true, but you know we did like I would, we would like I have the story about me falling out of a helicopter landing in the Hudson at his house in the Hudson River. We flew in from the helicopter and I was like, you know, wasted or like leaning out of the helicopter and fell out of the helicopter into the

Hudson River, and like winter closed in November. It was Thanksgiving weekend and I remember Chunk, my dog, jumped out of the helicopter after me, and I was like, oh my god. First of all, I should be with Chunk. Fuck this guy, but uh he was. We lived a lifestyle like that, like it was just ridiculous. And it was basically like what's that famous couple that that famous play Virginia. It's Virginia was afraid of Virginia. Yes, it's like that, just like I take private jets do on

the weekend to see him. But then I get mad when I landed and I'd reround. I mean it was so dumb. Well, I can see that there's probably a certain point where you really can have everything in a relationship like that except what you really need, and it

must just be so maddening. We're just all of your primal ship comes out and and you know, sometimes there's people that they can handle it because they're just as fucked up in that sense, you know what I mean, Like, you're not going to scare him if you go hop on him, right, And it's like, in a weird way, almost want someone that would be scared of. Yeah, well, in a weird way. It's like what you said earlier about you know, my brother had all these amazing qualities.

It's funny because clearly that's those are the qualities I was looking for, right and in everybody that I wanted, like do you can you be that? Can you make me feel this kind of comfort? And and Joe has

all He reminds me so much of my brother. It's you know, it comes up all the time, like he does these gestures that are almost maternal at all, like somebody who just is so careful about you and wants to make sure you're okay, and you're comfortable and care so much for you, like only a mother is like that,

you know, And that's the way my brother was. I'm just thinking that, you know, we don't want to put the blame on the person who hasn't found the right person yet, But in a way, it's we always have to look at ourselves. Am I doing anything too? I don't mean to block the right person coming? And I'm not trying to talk like the secret, but am I doing anything to not see? Like with you and Joe, I'm not seeing what's right in front of me, and

and it wasn't the right time yet. But there is also something too, you know, sometimes we just don't find the right people at the right time. But I do think there's something to be said for on one hand, you want all these qualities that that your brother had, but on the other you're really not willing to have them yet. I really believe that, you know, Um, it's like someone who wants to quit smoking, but they're really not willing yet, and so they're going to keep smoking

and keep complaining about it. I gotta quit, I gotta quick. I really feel like it's that way in love, when we we know what's the right thing, but we we have no tools to go find it or to even actually like to even feel attracted to it, Like was there a time? And I'm going all over the place.

But we'll get back to original questions. But when you first were falling in love with Joe, did it feel different than other relationships that that you had pre therapy where you were stuck in these other attachment styles of anxious avoidance. Did it feel like, am I not even into this guy? I mean, am I attracted to him at all? I mean we hung out for a long time and I was not. I never even thought that

way about him. I just thought, Oh, he's such a nice Joe's such a nice guy, right, Like he's just he's happiness. He's like fortune, He's like the male version of fortune. Yeah, he just brings joy. So I was like, oh, of course I want that around me, you know, he's and and yeah, I kind of figured he had a crush on me. But I didn't really think too much about it. I just I don't know, I just didn't.

And then over time, you know, it definitely felt from because by the time I came around to the idea I had never ever fallen for somebody in that way by hanging out with them or spending time with them and like literally falling in love with a person before who they represent or what they're bringing, you know, like the the allure. So it's it was the first time I had fallen in love with a friend, so yeah, and it was my first relationship post therapy, you know,

like a like serious relationship. We'll continue the interview on the flip side of a quick message from our sponsors. So now I'm going to take you back to pre Joe. So would you say that you have ever had anxiety in a in a kind of disordered way or do you have it now? I mean I've had I have incremental anxiety when I have things. You know, I don't think I could compare myself to you and your anxiety and don't think it's it's it's in no way ever

really inhibited me. I mean I fight against it a lot, so I kind of like tune it out if I feel it, I feel like, oh I have to go do that or you know. But I also take my time to get to what I'm doing. So I definitely have a lot of deliberation, which can be I think characterized as anxiety, like before I pulled the trigger on

something and then I also have anxiety. I mean, I think with COVID and socializing, I definitely feel a little bit more self conscious about conversations and like the idea of having to be like the center of attention on anything other than be me being on tour and doing that. I have that is fine, I can nail that. But anything separate of that, I'm not really available. And I find that to be lame about myself, you know, like I used to be so much fun, and I'm like, oh,

you're not fun anymore. Oh my god, I feel the opposite about you. Oh god, really, yeah, I think you're so much fun because you're very present and you're just as funny as you ever were, but there's more of a presence there and you're not I don't know. I I think you're really fun because you're just you're all there. You know. It's not spreading yourself too thin, right, It's like you can see a few people at a time. It's not everything has to be a giant party that

you're throwing at your house. You don't really get to spend any time with you like you have more of an intimacy, and I think for me that's really fun. And I think that even translates probably to romantic relationships where it's like what maybe you thought might be boring before that you now have with Joe is probably really exciting because of the intimacy. Yeah. Yeah, that's actually a great way to look at it. I'm glad you said that because that is true. I definitely am way more

present and I have more one on one interactions. I guess I feel there's a part of me that goes, oh, you used to be like the life of the party, and now I'm like, I don't, you know, I don't do that anymore. I like I do have you were people around, I don't have to go to those, you know, I'm not like that, But there is there's a definite

surplus of intimacy because of that with everybody. I remember after yeah, please put Chelsea's applying lipstick, and I'm so glad because women just want to times no, you do, you look great? But I remember, you know, after the Chelsea Lately Show is over, and you know, whenever I was doing any kind of like press for something, everyone's going, are you still friends of Chelsea? And I was like, yeah, but we're not like ever going out one on one,

like to dinner. But she's my friend and she'll invite me to a party or something. And it's just so funny that we had this lovely one on one dinner. I mean, who else could have gone when I was on the road with you and up state New York. But I think, um, it was very special and it

and it had a really lovely intimacy. And I was like, oh, I don't think we really did this kind of stuff before because I think you were more focused on You just had more people to entertain, I guess, and you probably just wanted to be surrounded by a lot of people, the life of the party. And also it was pre COVID, But I do think there's something psychologically different there too, and it it's just so funny that it coincides with

you being in this really deep relationship. Now, Oh well, I love that, thank you, and the deep relationship I mean is you and me obviously, But she's what she's not saying about that dinner is I'll leave out all the romantic details. You do have some experiences with anxiety, but you're talking about the attachment styles did you talk to a therapist about that? Do you know what your attachment style was and has it changed, because I've heard that they can be fluid. Oh, I don't know. I

haven't spoken to a therapist. I just read that book about it. It's all attached um and no. I kind of saw myself and all of it. Avoidant, definitely anxious sometimes. Like anxious is like, oh, if if something goes wry, right, you immediately go to the worst possible case scenario, which is what I would do with my brother. And that's a very embedded thing, you know, Like, uh so anytime Joe and I, like, even if we have a disagreement, like you know, in my head, I in my like emotions,

I'll be like, oh, what if we're breaking up? But in my head, I'm like, you're not. You're having a disagreement, so you can feel it in your body kind of yeah, Like I just know my reaction is my little girl reaction and not my like adult reaction. So I'm always And that's pretty much I would say the answer to to what I mean, what to do with almost every

reaction you have is like give it a minute. Like my big problem was being so reactive and as long as you sit and go, okay, is this something you know, like am I being jealous right now? Am I being insecure? What? What is the issue here? And then identifying it and then not acting on it, going oh, that's that's not

that's not what's happening. I think that's what's so interesting about the word anxiety is I think people think it means well, I'm no evens you know, when you're biting your nails, But you know it's for me, I realized that, well, okay, I don't really have my fear flying anymore, and I don't mind being alone, and I do a lot of things. I don't really know what I'm anxious about, but I'm reactive. I was reactive, and you know that is a form

of anxiety. And so if we just blanket everything is anxiety, you know, it's important to talk about the deeper things. Like you mentioned the word deliberation, that's a form of anxiety. But reactivity is huge, and I think it's what tanks a lot of relationships because I think you know, for me, I was never taught that you can't just react however you want without taking a minute, and that the other person, it may chip away at their love for you. I

really didn't know that. I thought you could just act, however, and people had to love you unconditionally. You know, well that would be ideal, right, you could just and that way, we wouldn't have the annoyances we have when we're dealing with people who don't seem exactly the same way or

operating the way we would. You know, if everyone could just react and not take it personally right, But in a way, I'm glad that they do because it shows that they have some self esteem and healthy now injuries, you know, there's that that grace period between feeling the reaction and it feels so intense. You feel like you're nine years old being abandoned, and your brain is saying, wait a minute. And it just takes practice and now

I'm I'm great at it. So many people have no idea I've been reactive around them because my brain is saying, calm down, we'll we'll do something about this later if you're still feeling a certain way, but you never are, which, by the way, like when people said, oh, write an email and then wait twenty four hours, you know, when you're angry, I'd be like, wait, I already sent it,

what are you talking about? And then you know I've sent it from my account and from someone else's account, And then when you actually put it into practice for the first time, you're like, wait, what was I upset about? And you realize, oh, this is another fucking thing that is so true. That is, you know, almost seems trite when people say it, but it's it's totally true. Like if you give anything twenty four hours you do not care.

It's so true. And it is always the trite sounding things that work, because this stuff, although it's deep and it's serious and it's complex, it's the solutions are always pretty simple. And when I have done that, written an email and just sent it to myself, when I look at it twenty four hours later, I don't recognize that person. And and the great news is is there's never clean up. If I don't create drama, they don't have to clean

up any drama. And oh my god, it's just so it just feels so freeing, and and I'm I don't even know, I can't even relate to people that never had this problem. They're just totally normal. It's so strange to me. Yeah, like they're totally even keeled. You're like, really, you just came out even keeled, so onto your love life. So okay, so here we are, we're Chelsea Handler. You know what's so funny is you write this book, you know, your first book, um My Horizontal, My Horizonal Life, my

saying my yeah, yeah yeah. I don't know why it sounded wrong in my head. My Horizonal Life number one bestseller, really is the thing that launches you. And it's about having one night stands and but knowing you real life. I feel like the amount of years I worked with you like account on my fingers, the amount of people that you're with. You know, it's not like you were out there looking for men trying to have sacks all the time. You mean, you were like the least horny person.

I knew. It was like men were just sort of this afterthought. If it happened, great, but you know it wasn't your goal in life. And so I guess that's just a comment, not a question. But do you think back then you were looking for love or you just weren't sure and you would have taken you know, what did you want back then? I wanted just to be successful and independent, like that was way more of a priority to me than love. Love was not on the

menu like for my twenties or thirties. I mean, I met Ted, and I fell in love with Ted, like I really believed that I loved him for a good you know, two years, and but I outgrew him, just like I outgrew everything in my life. I just would get bored with something, just like I outgrew the show and I was like, oh, this is boring to me now, Like once it was over, I was just like, I can't pretend. So that was the That was the first

time I was in an adult like love relationship. And I think too that, yeah, I remember that when you and you were with Ted, who was um at the network. And this is during the Chelsea Lately. Let's throw up a picture of him. We're gonna throw up and we'll link to Ted in the show notes. We'll put his phone number in the show notes and his email address

a Comcast network. I loved Ted. I was so bummed when you guys broke up, just because I all the time he smails me, like anytime I have good news, or like when I won the People's Choice Award, He sent me an email the next day, like, couldn't be prouder of you. He always sends me emails. It's really sweet. We'll be right back. Yeah, So now we're going to get into the portion of where we are now with Joan and inspiring people and all that. So okay, so

you're you're having these relationships. We we went through the last two kind of big ones of your life. And did you think at one point, you know, independence and love they're just they're not they're not compatible. I guess I'm not going to have both. Yes, Yeah, for sure. I definitely was like, Okay, well this is how it's going to be. Like I'm just gonna be with my family and uh my friends, and like I have a pretty happy life, like not even pretty happy, you know

happy life. I have everything I could ever want, and I have the like sense you know of I could easily travel for the rest of my life with my friends and be fine. So yeah, I definitely thought that and I believed it. I was like, I don't get everything in this life. I've gotten too much already. That's something I probably am not going to get. Yeah, And so here you are with your good friend Joe Koy, which is just so funny because you know, again, I

don't know exactly the demo of my podcast. I think it's a lot of people with anxiety. I don't know a lot of them if they've watched Chelsea Lately, none of that really matters. But what they need to know is that Joe Koy and Chelsea Hiller have known each other for got almost twenty years, and he was a regular on your show, late night show, Chelsea Lately, and you just would make fun of him so badly that if you asked me, then would they ever end up

in love? No talking me too, I'm like, wait, if someone said in twenty years or well, no it's not been twenty years, but in twelve years or whatever it's been, you're going to be in love with Joe Coo, I would have been like what I wouldn't have been. I would have been like, that's a bummer, Like I didn't even think about him in that way. So here I am and I'm on Instagram. Um, I don't even know when over the summer last year, I'm seeing you hang out with Joe and I'm like, oh, Chelsea is in

love with joke. It's so clear and you're just friends. And I reached out to when I was like you need to you know, you said, are you fucking when are you going to start sucking Joe KOI? Or what are you I was not that cross. I didn't. Okay, well, that must have been Sarah or one of you girls was like, when are you going that? Yeah, that was Sarah saying, or when are you going to admit your fucking Joe koy? And I was like, Sarah, like I've ever lied about anything like so if that were happening,

I would let you know. And that was still at a point where I was like no, no, And then I remember it was not long after that that I said, Okay, I do want to suck him, but I'm not sure if he wants to suck me now. But that was of course, you know baby brain again right like now that I'm like him, does he like me? He's like, yes, he likes you. I DMed you and I said, it seems like you really like Joe and I think he's

a great guy. I think it coulould be a great couple. Yeah, And I thought you were gonna say shut up, blah blah, and you said I like him and I said, go for it. And then you said, I don't. You said something like, I don't know if he likes me, and I said, well, I know one thing. If he does, there's no way in hell he thinks you like him. So you're gonna have to make the move. That's what

you said. And uh, so take me through. Were there any feelings of it doesn't have to be anxiety, but were there any I don't know, scared feelings of wanting to move in this direction. Was it like, oh, if I do this, I know this is forever, and so I, oh, here we go. Did you kind of feel that? No, No, because I didn't. We were hanging out a lot. He was always showing up. He wants, you know, he always wanted to hang out, and we'd hang out for like six or seven hours. We'd go to Malibu. We'd go

to the Santa Monica Pier. It was like a scenes out of a romantic comedy montage. It was now, you know, like but nothing was happening. We would go to lunch, have two margarita's, then we'd end up at Starbucks at seven pm. Then of course he'd always want to go to the Laugh Factor and i'd be like, drop me off. You know, I'm like that. I wasn't interested in going and doing stand up. He was, and he that's his life. So we were hanging out, hanging out, and then it

wasn't like I was scared. I mean, who knows what's going on with my subconscious and all of that. But as far as I know, as soon as I felt that way, it was an emergency. I was like, well, wait, I have to make sure that they can be a relationship. Like I have to make sure that his penis is the right size for my calapas, Like I had to make sure of all of these logistical kind of nuances for my own sake of mind, because that was my

whole narrative in my head. You know now it sounds so silly, but like all those things had to click before I could be like, we're in a relationship and not, well not, I'll let you ask me the next question, so I don't jump. You can say it. I don't know what you're gonna say. Well, I was gonna say.

By the time we re established that something was happening, I was like, we're going to stand a Barbara forty eight hours, like to audition this idea and if at the end of it everything's ago, then you know, like by the end of that forty eight hours, I was like, oh, we're in a relationship now, like you know, whereever. But I mean, it's funny because as silly as it sounds, what's this panis like, do we have chemistry? It is important. You can't just like be in love with someone and

not of chemistry or else. There's no difference between them and your platonic friends. But did you feel that part of that thinking was the old brain and then the new brain really settled into what was I don't want to say more important, but the rest of it. Yes, I think all of your old habits are always into like living themselves out through you, right, it's just about you.

Like I mean, yeah, he was standing in front of me this whole time, and I couldn't see him, so clearly I had issues because everything that I could ever want in a person, he has like everything. So for me not to be able to see that in front of my eyes, I'm like, oh God, what a baby. But at the same time, I don't I don't rate myself like that because I'm like, oh, well, at least

you fucking woke up to it. Like, thank goodness that I was, you know, I got with the program and was able to see him for who he is and how much he adores me and how much he cares for me, and it makes me be able to, you know, do the same in return, exceeding any levels of caring or loving I have done in my past. And did you find it easy to accept how much he cared for you? It's not like you were pushing in a

way or anything like that. I mean, all that work you've done, it must have been a little easier than it maybe would have been before. I don't know if that's something you can really measure, you know, because that's a subconscious thing too, Like you're resisting something clearly because

you don't feel comfortable with it. So there there I am, you know, not wanting to be loved in that way, and then just kind of almost capitulating to it, like seeing so many demonstrations of it that you're like, like, you know the marble jar that burn A Brown talks about, do you know that? No? Where she talks about friendships

and family relationships and like love relationships. There when you have a relationship up was somebody there are so many marbles in the jar after years and acts of kindness and showing up at someone's door, and you know, whatever a friendship is built out of. And so when that person does something that you don't like, you know, depending on how full that jar is, you're able to forgive them. But if there are a few marbles in the jar, it's like, we'll wait a second. Now you're skating on

thin ice. Right, Like he had put so many marbles in the marble jar that I was like, Oh, this is my person, Like I'm supposed to be with this person. And it wasn't even on a intellectual level. It was like I felt it like from my mother and from my brother. I'm like a spiritual like, Oh this is part of my family. I'm supposed to be with this man. And my family wasn't gonna let go until they made sure that I saw him. Oh it's so beautiful. Oh I know, it's sweet. It makes materior eyed, But that's

how I felt. I like that you brought up the Bernie Brown marble thing because anyone listening, you know, if you're going to advise someone about picking the right person for them. It's tough. I mean, it's so good that you knew him all this time because he loved you so fully, and that you know, you wouldn't if you knew someone ten minutes. That would be weird, you know it when being the love bombing that a narcissist or so so does I have this great well wait, let

me tell you this great little thing. I don't know if I told you this already, but Tiffany hotsh We're in Vegas one night and Tiffany, did I tell you this? Maybe? So we go there perform in Vegas. He's at the Win. We go out after to this you know club, and Tiffany gets on stage right before she's getting on stage because she's singing Tina Turner or something. Um, she goes Chelsea like she she just realized we had were together, right, it was new. And she goes, Chelsey, I gotta tell

you something. Nobody well ever love you the way looks but you did tell me that yeah, And I was like huh, And she goes, he has loved you for so many years and he loves you. And I was like,

I couldn't you know? And she and then she went on to tell me stories and I was like, oh my god, this man like it's almost like what you dream about when you're a little girl and you're You're like, I'm going to find my Prince Charming who's loved me this whole time from Afar And I didn't know, and he just was seeing me and seeing me It's like that happened. Yeah, he sees you. But you do have

a responsibility, which I'm sure you take very seriously. Right, you can't just as I said before, you know, react, do whatever you know he'll forgive you. I'm sure that, I'm sure that there's a lot of respect that you have for him, that you know that that is an active amount of respect. Yeah, yeah, I mean, of course, now I know what that word means, you know, respecting other people, respecting. You know that before it was like about gaining respect. I think you know, as a girl,

you're just always trying to prove that you're worthwhile. So in lieu of respecting other people, I was trying to, like, you know, incurage on myself. So now I'm in a stage where I do respect other people and I get it, and I you know, of course I respect him. I love everything about him. I mean, we couldn't be more different, you know, So it's so easy to be fascinated by him. That's fun too, because you kind of can't grow out of that. Also, you too remind me unlike other relationships

you've had, is you'll grow and change together. Like you'll probably change, but there's room for you to change and it doesn't matter to him. And you guys might change together in your own ways. It's like there's three different lanes here. He'll change, you'll find that interesting. You'll change, he'll find that interesting, And you guys will develop things together as you get older. Not a lot of relationships

have that kind of elasticity. It's like the minute somebody jumps out of the I don't know what you call it, like routine, that's kind of it. Yeah, now we're I think we're going to be growing together for a while. Like he's pretty open to whatever I'm open to, and you know, I'm pretty open to everything. So he's up here skiing with me, for instance, and whistler, Like he's been here for three weeks. He was here for my

family with my family for Christmas. It was like the first time that you know, I have an addition instead of a subtraction in my love life, Like he like my nieces and nephews all just text him now they don't even bother with me like that he's cooler, and I'm just like, I fucking love this. That is so great. And so for anyone listening, I know we talked to you were saying, you know, I don't want to you know, if you guys ever got married or something like that.

You're like, I just don't want to have people think that I'm saying, this is the ultimate thing. Everyone has to have a partner. And I used to be so independent, and I don't think people will look at it that way because you seem completely yourself. You know, you haven't lost anything. You haven't said I'm not complete without him and all that kind of thing. So what does it feel like to be in a healthy relationship in terms of that notion that you had before where well, you

I guess you can't have independence and love. How does it feel now that you're in something healthy where you I assume have both. I mean, I do feel strongly about setting an example for women, Like I feel very strongly that I want women to know that you don't ever have to subscribe to any of this bullshit to lead a full and happy life, like you can fucking make your money, do your thing and not adhere to any of this, you know, bullshit and capitalism and weddings

and lah. At the same time, you know, I'm torn because he I know this isn't your question, but I'll I love it. I asked two questions that were totally different, so you know, I also asked myself two separate questions, so I'm answering. And then he said and then he and Joe wants to get there, you know, He's like, that's the ultimate and I'm like, okay, well, I want to give that to you. But I'm also like pretty

pretty tied to being an example for women. You know, I feel like I oh everything to younger women and older women and any woman that's listening to me that I want to set an example of independence and freedom. And I would say, you know, to speak to what this podcast is about and encapsulates, which is the idea of anxiety freedom. You know, it is the antidote to anxiety, like ultimate freedom ultimately being able to say no, I'm not going there, I don't want to do that job.

I don't need that money. I don't like I don't have to date that person because I'm forty five and it's getting to be a more narrow thing. The freedom of independence and liberty. You know, freedom is a tricky word to use as a white woman, but I mean it in the sense of, you know, emotionally and intellectually free of any of those underpinnings. You know, to be able to say I'm gonna sit in my house in Whistler for six months and read books and tell everyone

to go funk off is freedom. And that's how I feel about out everything, and I want women to know that that is like very accessible when you have only one focus, which is to be free. Well, that's why you don't nauseate me when you talk about Joe, because I know you're completely free and this is for fun, like I had a therapist day to me once. You know, relationships are for fun and for free their extra you know, they're not completing anybody, they're not making you know, we

all still die at the end of the day. You know, it doesn't take all the scar eas away, it doesn't fix you. It's just a nice added bonus. And and you can tell when someone's talking when they feel like they're being fixed or they're finally being acceptable to society, it's it's uncomfortable. And so you don't give me that vibe. But I think that you know, actually give me that vibe,

jen Oh, I did just sitting here. Now you know, the whole interview, even before we go on Anxiety Bites, will be right back after a quick little message from one of our sponsors. You know this is going to air around Valentine's Day, So let's see. Let me say this, I want Chelsea's anxiety free love tips in terms of looking for a partner, What should people put on their list of I will not accept this, and I demand this what you don't have to have a whole long list.

I realize I'm just springing this on you. Well, I mean I would say to cross those two things right off the list. Like I think any sort of parameters when you're talking about love should be thrown out the window. Yeah, I mean, I just think we all have to be a little bit less judgmental and a little bit more open minded too, in order to see what's coming your way. And I speak from experience. We I wish my eyes

were wide or open. You know, you can talk about timing and whatever, but I you know, I think that that is something that I would say to urge everyone who's listening to do is to open your eyes a little bit more and just stop judging and open like yourself to like the possibilities. And I think, you know, that will go a long way for so many women because we just spend so much time building roadblocks. I love that you just threw away those parameters. That that's

such a cool way to end the episode. If this was Oprah, I would just be like pointing to the audience and nodding, and they'd be cheering, and I'd be like, Okay, okay, she put me in my place on that one. I'm actually doing Oprah right after this Super Soul Sunday. Oh, even though it's a Wednesday. She's actually on call waiting right now. She's like, oh, wait, I should I should let you go. Oh my god, wait how she was your sister's poem or song about Joe over Christmas? Oh

my god, it was so cute. I'll have to do it. Yeah. My families really, my family is really into Joe KOI. So it's like, thank you for getting this relationship because it's sort of made up. I mean, my family never bothers me about that stuff. But it was almost like, oh, what's so happy about you and Joe Koib You just don't even understand. I was like, She's like, I mean, you're my parents were so funny because you get them

in person. Yeah, that's right. I can't believe those two just go from one gambling mecca to the next three. It's crazy. They look fucking awesome, by the way, So that means you've got a long way to go. You better get ready, girl, Chelsea. Thank you so much for being with me. Um. I just uh, this is a fun episode. I'm hoping a Valentine's episode that doesn't bum people out. I think they'll be really inspired and the at the very at least the laugh. Yeah, I know,

this is a good episode. I had a great time with you. I'm glad that we did this. Thank you for asking me. You send it like a robot at the end. There. Well, I'm gonna ask you to come on mine too, my podcast too. I will let's just you know, go through my people really busy. All right, Well, I'll let you go. I'm gonna hang up and go eat pizza. Okay, have a great night. Thank you. I

hope you enjoyed this episode with Chelsea. Again, if you want to send an email to the show Anxiety Bites Weekly at gmail dot com, and you can tell me how this podcast has helped you. You can ask me any questions, if you need any advice that maybe I could answer, if you wanted to talk about the ways that you've had anxiety, your triumphant stories of anxiety and panic and what you did to overcome it and how

it's going now, anything you want. When I do listener email episodes, we can hopefully get yours on the air. Anxiety Bites Weekly at gmail dot com doesn't have to be, you know, an opus, just a paragraph or two or half a page, whatever you want. So here's some takeaways from Chelsea. For Chelsea, it's important to her to not react right away. So if she's feeling an emotion, something, a heightened state angry about something, do not whip up an email five minutes after you felt that way for

the first time? Can you wait twenty four hours? And then, as Chelsea says, by the next day she doesn't even remember feeling that way anymore. So can you move from being reactive to taking action when it's necessary. Chelsea read a book about relationship styles called Attached that taught her a lot about anxious and avoidant and secure attachment styles. When Chelsea's brother passed away and she was a young girl, her brain in a way almost freezes in time in

that mode. Where as a nine year old, she intellectually interpreted this as being abandoned, and then it creates a deep hurt. But you don't necessarily process or feel all of that as a child, and if you don't look at it later, you can kind of stay in that place. And that's what she had to move through. Also for Chelsea, therapy is something that you can do and then go out into the world and fly and then come back if there are ever any more problems that you need

to work on. Everybody uses therapy in a different way, and for people that are afraid that, oh my god, I'm have to go every day for the rest of my life, Nope, it also can look like this. And I think that was it. I think I did some of the takeaways in the beginning when I talked about the intimacy of friendships. But let's just add that in here that having true intimacy with yourself and friends is a great practice point for eventually having it in love relationships.

And until you find that love relationship if you're looking for one, the intimacy you have with yourself and your friends is so fulfilling it may take away some of the pain and the longing that you have for a relationship. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this episode. We'll see you next week when I am going to be um talking to a therapist about the attachment styles that people have in love and why it is not a thing to say you have a bad picker. There's a whole other scientific

reason behind not quote picking the right people. So I hope you'll stay with me next week on our two weeks back to back all Love, all the Time theme, you're on anxiety bites and just remember anxiety bites, but you're in control. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.