Little Panic

that were not diagnosed when we were little. And you know, I was thinking, oh, should the December episodes have like a Christmas or a holiday theme or something, And I just didn't really work out that way. You know, I did a lot of these interviews in advance. But the one thing I will say to um any kind of holiday theme here is that obviously, when we're traveling for the holidays, we may go back to our eildhood homes, we may reconnect with the child inside of us and

all that kind of thing. And so I guess this episode is dedicated to the little kid in me that had no idea what she was going through. And I'm not saying it was like traumatic all the time. It really, to be honest, I don't know if for the most part, I remember too many feelings of going, oh, hey, my childhood, I'm always panicking. It wasn't like that, you know. But when I did a panic attacks, I certainly, I'm pretty sure I thought I was the only one having this stuff,

or definitely the only kid. And oddly Amanda and I, as we learned, had sort of just missed, uh being in the same kind of world in New York City. Um, she was sort of in the comedy world for a little while. She grew up in New York City. I came to New York in the late nineties and she was there, but I just missed kind of. She used to run a storytelling show that perhaps I would have done, but she started it after I had already moved away.

And but it's just funny to think that there's this little kid panicking in Boston, and then there's another little kid panicking in New York City, and how many kids all over America were panicking, and nobody knew what the hell it was. You know, and you grow up and you figure it out. And I don't know, there's something I don't know what I mean. It sounds too hokey, But but where I'm saying to the little kid and mey, hey,

you know what, you were totally normal all along. There was a thing, there was a name for what you had. And there is a New York Times article about Amanda's book and they talk about how because one of the themes in her book is that as a kid, she totally wished she had something on the outside wrong with her so that people could see it and diagnose it. And in the book she writes this is after she got her panic and anxiety diagnosis when she was a

little older. I've spent my entire life battling some impossible, invisible plague no one ever seemed to see. And this guy did it with such ease, as though panic disorder is easy to establish, obvious to anyone who would take the time to ask what my symptoms were. So we talk all about panic disorder sort of from a little kid's point of view, you know, where it's like, are the adults thinking about all of the terrible things that could happen to me? You know, and and why aren't

they solving this? And in a weird way, when you have anxiety, it's like you're not wrong in a way to go, you know, what if this thing falls, what if that? What if this but you're training yourself to think in this disordered way. And reading her book, I had this epiphany that when you have panic disorder as a kid, and you you do all of these coping mechanisms that aren't ruling what you should be doing, but it's the best you know how to do. So you

might avoid certain things. You might really obsess over things and worry about them because you think that's somehow going to give you some control. It can make you a little bit of a self focused person, and I think that can come off sort of self centered in the bad way if you're still using those coping mechanisms as you get older, or you're not really sure. I know, for me, I was always so focused on feeling better after panic attacks. It just it didn't dawn on me

like I think fully why people had romantic relationships. I think there was a big part of my early life where I thought, you have them to feel safe in the world, you know, and I know, to an extent, like in a lovely way. Of course, any relationship we have, whether it's a deep friendship or whatever, of course we feel, you know, tethered to our existence by these people that know us and see us. And reflect back with us

and tell us we're okay and all that. But in the literal sense, you don't just grab someone to have a relationship with and think you'll make everything okay. That's just nobody else's responsibility. And you know, there's there's all these things I've I've looked up and and and in the work I did over the years to stop looking at relationships that way, and I don't look at them that way anymore, of course, But not once in all of the work I did that was specific to romantic relationships,

did I did ever done? I mean, well, a lot of this is just kind of like disordered behavior from having undiagnosed panic for a long time. You know, It's just like sometimes the littlest thing hits you. You read something and you think, oh, I have a new perspective on something I went through. And again, as someone who's been working on anxiety and all of this for so long, I do every once in a while think that I

have nothing left to learn. And it's fun to read someone's book and think, wow, this just spoke to me. I've never looked at my own life this way before. And so Amanda and I talked about that as well, but I'm always excited when I find out, oh, this is a way that having panic and anxiety affected me.

I mean maybe for some people that's depressing. They would think, God, I don't want to keep being reminded of things I screwed up later in life, you know, like, oh, that was because I had panic disorder when I was told. But for me, I just I don't know. I like to connect dots and create new narratives and just figure things out. You know. It's sort of like the a continuation of of what I liked doing as a kid, just trying to figure things out. But now I feel

like it's in a healthier way. There's more of a curiosity. I don't need to figure it out. It's all good. But back then it was like, you know, let's just let's just figure this out. This meaning I don't know what life safety, how do we stay safe? And the obviously the key is the more we let go, which was not an option for me back when I was little.

So it was such a joy to talk to Amanda, And this episode is dedicated to all the little kids out there who maybe panicking and have no idea what it is and if you're a parent, Um, really listen hard to this episode and try to try to notice, try to notice your kids. And I don't. I don't know. I don't know what you do. If I were a parent, I'd be constantly like, if you have panic disorder, let me know. And my kids would be like, I don't know what that is. I I will, but I don't

know what you're saying. Are you pay? Do you feel like you can't breathe? Do you feel like you know? I don't. I would give them panic disorder because they'd be like, my mom keeps asking about this panic disorder and it's actually making me feel short of breath. That's the other interesting things. Amanda and I don't have kids, but we feel like really compassionate towards kids about anxiety. And she we talked in the interview she wrote a great newsletter about what to do if your child has

panic disorder. So we'll talk about it in there, and of course I'll link to everything in the show notes. But um, yes, obviously. Amanda is the author of Little Panic. It's her most recent book, a memoir about growing up with an undiagnosed panic disorder. She's now a mental health advocate, speaker and advisory board member for Bring Change to Mind. As a writer, she lives in Brooklyn, as she's required to.

That's a joke on her website. She's the author of The Long Haul and eleven books for children, written under the pseudonyms A. J. Stern and Fiona Rosenbloom. In two thousand three, she founded the legendary Happy Ending Music and reading series, which required creative artists to take risks on stage. The multidisciplinary series became the gold standard for literary events. Many of today's series are knowingly and unknowingly based Unhappy Endings model. The series ended in It was produced at

Joe's Pub and later at Symphony Space and again. Her most recent book is Little Panic, that we will be talking about now and all information about Amanda will be linked to in the show notes. But enjoy our chat. I am here with Amanda. Start Amandaster and thank you for being on Anxiety Bites. Thanks for having me. We have very similar childhood brains, I'll say, even if our childhoods were different. Um and Amanda Stern is the author

of the wonderful uh memoir called Little Panic. Dispatches from an Anxious Life, but Um, your book Little Panic Dispatches from an Anxious Life is I hope this is a compliment. I mean it as one. It's the Uncut Gems of Books. Does that make sense? Do you know that movie? I don't. Okay. It's an Adam Sandler movie that came out last year, and the directors of this film are known for making movies that make you feel like so in it when you're watching them that you're like stressed out in your

heart rates up. But that's part of it. Good, um. And what I love about your writing is that you're not writing it from Hello, I'm Amanda the adult and this is what it was like as a child, Like you're talking to us as your childhood self. Do you like how I'm explaining your book to you? Like you could? I do? I? Actually I would like this for my entire life. I would like someone to walk with me, side by side and explain the entire world to me

step by step. This is actually like very soothing. Well I feel like I'm being a man splainer, but I really am just saying this through the listen. Um. But what I like about it is that it just it just gets you in the heart, you know, and then at certain points you go, oh my god, there's so many anxious thoughts. But what I love about it is when you read someone's memoir, I'm always like, how do

they remember this? You know, it'll be like I was twelve years old and the girl who sat next to me had a pink shirt on, and it's not a very traumatic story. It's just a detail that they remember. And I think, I don't remember anything from my life at all, but I remember every single anxious thought I've had. And I believe, not that I did. Don't believe people's memoirs, but I know I didn't ask myself while reading your book, how did she remember this? I know how you can't.

It's it's in your body, right, So so I don't know. I'm gonna stop talking and let you be interviewed here. But I guess that's probably want to start is childhood, undiagnosed panic and anxiety. Um, that was your life, And I guess what I want to say is take me through. I think something that was so interesting in the book is you talk a lot about your relationship with your mother and how you would say, well, what's going to happen?

You know, are you going to die or are we ever going to lose the house, And she would just say no, these things aren't going to happen, which I think is really sweet instinct to try to soothe you. But I think what us anxious people realize is that's not true. Like we know bad things are happening and we are disordered, and how much we want to plan for it. But it makes it worse when you tell us that's never going to happen, and then it does. It's like you have just now set the foundation for

our world to shatter. Right, So can you talk to me about your relationship with your mother and what what you think she should have done differently and and what it was like as a kid who had so many questions? Yeah, um, well, you know, first, I want to say that I think that what I would like people to understand about anxiety, for the people who don't really understand it, especially childhood anxiety,

is that it's the uncertainty that is so distressing. And when a child is constantly asking what if, what if? What if? What they're actually asking for is can you give me some certainty either way, either it's yes, this bad thing happens, or you know, yes, uh, this good thing happens, you know, or no, none of this happens. But they're asking for a sense of certainty. And that doesn't mean it needs to be positive, it just needs

to be honest. So I think that for me as a kid, I was um sort of gripped with fear about the unknown. And when you know you're in that grip, you really the unknown becomes a type of extinction, a type of death. Not knowing equal death. And so if I could have someone explained to me what happens, if this happens, then I would feel less like I was going towards death. Then I would have the sort of tools and the skills too, and the steps to you know,

address my kidnapper I got kidnapped or you know. So I really wanted clarity about these scary things. It wasn't that I needed someone to say, don't worry, these things won't happen. I needed someone to say, Okay, here are there, here's here the steps should something happen. It's interesting because

you grew up in New York City. I mean, it's strange to me that your mom didn't have you know, and in the eighties, it's like at least where I grew up in the suburbs, it was very much we're going to talk about strangers with vans, and you're going

to need a password. And my mom's thing was growing up in the eighties was don't get in a car with anyone unless they have the password that you and your family have the verbal password, you know, like potatoes and my mom because we don't need a password because no one is ever picking uump except me a your father.

So when I's doing passwords, so my mom always went like an extra step that was I don't know if that was good or bad, but it just cracked me up because, uh, you know, people would ask me what's your password and they think my parents were bad parents, and I'm like, well, there's because I'm never getting in a car with anyone period. You know, even if if my leg is brokelyn, I probably wouldn't have gotten in

an ambulance one came by. But but so it's interesting to me that that your mom didn't say like, oh, well, when you walk down the street, I mean nothing, There was never any content like was she what was her problem? Was? There was some stuff where she would say, you know, there were some tips like, well, if someone is following you, go into the first store that you see, like that was helpful. Um, you know, but I think it took

a lot of badgering for me to get there. And I think it's because what I have figured out is that my mother didn't want me to have to suffer with discomfort because she can't deal with discomfort. Discomfort in her own body is so awful that she wanted to spare me from that. And and in doing so, what she did was she made it so that I also became afraid of discomfort in my body. Um. And so she did not how to do for herself what would

have helped me. Right, So it's not like she has the answer and just not telling you to protect exactly, you're probably freaking her out with all your questions, right, And it's yeah, she doesn't know, she doesn't know, she didn't know, And you know, my mom is very smart, but she's incredibly um naive and she you know, she's always had other people do things for her because she hasn't. I think she's very overwhelmed by having to figure things out on her own, so she doesn't really try. She

asks other people to do it. So she's not really learning how to do things for herself, and I am the opposite, Um, because I need information. I need information. I need to learn how to overcome, you know, being held back in the ways that I'm held back because I don't want to be helpless. UM. So it's just an it's an interesting dynamic. UM. But as a child it was similar because I wanted to learn. I wanted to know. I wanted to know everything, and she didn't know. So,

you know, it was just it was difficult. And my dad, you know, he mocked everything. So when I would ask him, you know, I adopted or am I this, he would make jokes and so I never got an answer from him. UM. So in some ways, that like it made me into a person who is constantly reading, constantly studying, constantly learning, constantly seeking, constantly you know, trying to grow and um.

And I appreciate that about myself. You know, Um, I can maybe go off the deep end of it, um, but I still appreciate that that's a part of my life. I just don't like the way I got there. I don't like the way I got here either in terms of like how many years I suffered unnecessarily and I love information. I mean don't I'm always like, don't bullshit me.

And I think that's the problem with anxiety. Those sometimes we think we're right and it's like, don't bullshit me here, and no one's I'm trying to think of a solid example from my life where it's like I'm over predicting everything that could possibly happen because I don't want to.

I don't want to be taken by surprise. And it's like, sometimes you're gonna be taken by surprise, you know, right, yeah, And it's you know, that's sort of overthinking is like a strategy to deal with uncertainty, but it doesn't work. It doesn't work because you're not gonna be able to

stop the surprise. But you can, as you know, deal with what happens when you feel surprised and understand what happens in your body, that flooded emotional feeling you get when you get that phone called like oh my god, did someone die or you know. But I know a lot of friends now who are having kids, and I watched them and I'm just sort of going, you, guys, this is a huge waste of time. They are doing everything they can to prevent their children from having anxiety.

It's horrible anxious. They're doing it all wrong. We'll be right back. So let's say this, whether it's you're just any kid, the kids asking their mom, okay, well we will we always live in this house. Are you gonna die someday? Blah blah blah, and we all say like, gee, it would have been great if they were just honest with us. But you, you weren't the average kid, like you had anxiety. So do you think though that your

anxious brain? It is almost like saying, oh, it would have been better at this, but are you right about that? Like would your anxious brain have been able to handle if she told you the truth about something? Or would you would the goal post keep moving you like? And then one't? You know? I think it would keep moving.

But I think that it would have taught me a little bit more about how to um that everything has steps, you know, and and it would have taught me how to sort of figure some stuff out for myself or ask myself, well, what will happen then? And then what? And then what and then what. I didn't even have the opportunity to say and then what because there was no answer to anything, so everything was possible, and that

was just too much. So I think that, yes, I think I would have been soothed by her answer for a day or two, and then there would have been new questions, and then there would have been new questions. But I do think that ultimately it would have taught me how to do for myself what I needed someone else to do for me, you know what I mean. Yeah, And and you know, one of my I mean, it's favorite,

it's upsetting, but it's still really well done. Part of the book is the little boy that went missing between a m and ten what was his name again, Aton pats At Pats and he, you know, he goes missing and you're just like, wait a minute, I mean, you're you know, obsessed with that, and people keep saying, oh, hell, he's not missing, he'll come home. But what was really shocking to me was, you know, you're you're right, you know, he nobody at school noticed he wasn't there. It wasn't

like at eight eleven they realized he was missing. The rest of the day they it took them to realize he was missing. Where was the bus driver, where's the you know, the teachers? And then when you said the cops came to your house too, I don't know, look around or look on the room, and you're going, well, why aren't they looking in there? They're not being good lookers.

It's it's so cute as a kid, but you're like, no, but this is this is something I would always just kind of insist on when I was younger and when I was anxious, and I still do it. Sometimes it's not a great quality I have, but I'm like, I'm right, I know, I'm right. You guys aren't doing a good enough job at keeping the world a safe place. Like

let me run this. Yeah, it's really difficult. It's really challenging, and when you're a kid, it's overwhelming in a very different way because you're realizing with the sinking feeling, oh my god, you're people I'm trusting, Like you're you're the ones because your cumps, you're you're actually supposed to save my life. And you are not even looking under the beds or in the closet like you're you're on a roof. For what is a six year old going to be

doing on a roof? You know, how's he gonna get there? How? That's not where you look, dudes. So yeah, I just felt like no one knew what they were doing, and I didn't even really know what I was doing, but I knew when people were, you know, doing shit wrong, and I didn't know what to do about that. Yeah,

that's true. I did. I did say that a lot of times we think we're right, and I think it's it's more like I may not know what to do either, but I know you guys don't and not making me out here because you know, growing up in the eighties, it was it was always on TV. Um, you know, mutually short destruction, nuclear war, blah blah and that. Yeah. I don't know if you remember that made for TV movie the day after. Um, yes, I do, you have very much. It sounds like you have a big connection

to it. Oh, yes I do. Um. Well, I actually never watched it because, um, because I knew what it was about and I was already terrified because my teacher would have us run these drills where she would like start yelling and say like the bombs are coming, the bombs are coming, and we would have to hide under our desk and um, and she was like, you know, nuclear war is going to happen in World War Three, And then everybody was talking about this movie and I

was like, I can't even breathe. Yeah, you know, just thinking about annihilation and everyone is going to sit and watch it and then bring it back to school and talk about it. I can't. I can't bear it. Like I couldn't even tolerate the thought of absolute annihilation, um much less watch it. So to this day, I've never

seen it. Well, it's funny. It's like the one example of just lie to your kids about that, because trust me, when the bomb comes, it'll be over in twenty five minutes, right, like your grandmother's gonna die, your mom's going to sell the house. Uh, you know, don't lie to your kids about that because when that stuff happens, it will be shocking. But a lot of them about nuclear or tell them,

is that ever gonna happen? Exactly? There are certain things where like when it actually you know, when there's something that can be done about it. You know, there's nothing you can do about death, but there's something you can do about explaining to your kids what will happen after you die? Or you know, how where if you know, if if you if I die and you're still a child. Here's what will happen, you know, here's where you'll go, here's where you'll live, all those things, Like it's terrifying,

but it's less terrifying than not knowing. But the big things, the global things. Yeah, no, keep that fucking ship to yourself, exactly. It's funny. We had the opposite experience. So I had a teacher who her whole life was denial. She was she was not a good teacher in many ways. Um, not good with kids, not good with little girls. Um. And she sent a note home saying, don't watch this movie. It could traumatize your kids. Now, that's seems good. But I brought it home and my mother was like, no,

we are living in reality. Made them watch this movie, you know, and my mom had panic and anxiety. My grandmother, did you know it's genetic? Of course, she didn't know what was called that at the time. She's just now at eighty two accepting the word anxiety. She used to say, hormones, hormones, hormones, Oh my god. So I'm sure it was to you know, certain phases of life. But I think the shame of

the word has been lifted. But anyway, so my parents and I sat down and watched it, and you know, I wanted to I I wanted the in amation and and my parents would not run drills in a scary way like the bombs were coming. But we had the worst jinkiest hinkiest contingency plan for nuclear war, which was put on these plastic like helmets that weren't even real helmets. They were like from you know, like a plastic softball game,

and go in the basement. And we lived in an old house from the eighteen hundreds in Massachusetts, and that that was our plan. And I remember my parents arguing amongst themselves about it, and my mother going, run, the radiation can seep right through this wood, and then my dad going, Joe, and they're not gonna bomb Massachusetts. They're gonna bomb the White House and that's very far away. We'll we'll at the very least just get some mild radiation in the air and we'll just have to stay

inside for a while. And it was just so funny watching them, Oh my god, argue about this, Like I remember going, so you guys don't not only do you guys don't know what you're doing. You're held yeah, you're you're so who's soothing me? And we're all just a bunch of anxious people, you know. But what was so interesting, and this goes back to childcare, is because of watching that movie, I was intolerant of anyone pretending it wasn't real.

And so the next day we went on a field trip to this place called Plymouth Plantation where the you know, Plymouth Rock they all landed there. And it's a bunch of people, probably people just out of acting school, who are dressed up pretending they are pilgrims and they and the fun game of it for everyone is you say to them, do you know what the VCR is? And they say, no, I'm milking a cow, you know. And so we're there and I had a panic attack on the bus on the way there because we were stuck

in traffic. And in the movie the day after, there's a scene where everybody's trying to leave and they're stuck in traffic and the bomb hits and everybody just turns into a skeleton in their car. Sorry, So I had just watched that. Now I'm on a bus and extent I'm having one of my first panic attacks. The breathing I can't breathe. I feel like I'm going crazy, and I'm I don't know what to do, and I keep getting under the seat because it just that makes me

feel safe, like tight spaces. And I kept getting in trouble with the bus driver and I couldn't say, you know, I'm dying. And then and we get to the plantation and everyone's like, do you know what to uh TV is? And they're like, no, I'm milking a cow. And I see a fallout shelter sign and you know, they were everywhere back then, but it was really just you know, and then a plane flute kind of too low over heads.

It was near an airport, and I just started panicking and I was like, can you please stop pretending, like screaming at them, like please stop pretending. It's the sixteen hundreds, like there's a nuclear war while gonna we're all gonna die. And I got in trouble from that teacher. I just sit on the bus the rest of the field trip by myself, and she called my parents and it's like,

can you imagine that happening today? Like that person would be destroyed on Twitter in half an hour and fired, and it was like there was no world where someone went maybe seving a panic attack, like just none, and we were so utterly alone. And and how that, like I'm just now learning to accept like that did change my brain. I hate that it did. But there's ways I don't There's ways I had to learn to function. That took way too long, you know. Oh yeah, I

mean I'm still learning how to function. It's it makes it makes me really sad though about um kids and so you in your newsletter you wrote, and I want to get back to fun things in your book, like punk rock and relationships, but you wrote, um, you have a great newsletter called how to Live and it's a free mental health newsletter. Everyone can sign up at Amanda sterned up bulletin dot com. And it's a post you wrote,

how to help a child during a panic attack. Can you just tell me, just tell us all how to do it? Because I think this is the most important thing in the world. And I'm sure people out there, I'm sure your kids are having panic attacks and you don't even know it because it doesn't look like people think it does. Sometimes it just looks like you're sitting

there quietly. Yeah, I mean, the main the main thing is I mean, it's funny because the piece is really it's it's titled how to help your kid, but a lot of it is like, don't do this, don't do that. So I think I've become very focused on what not to do UM before I get focused on what to do, because I think that what not to do that I think what people end up doing is more harmful. You know, then they obviously intended to be. UM. So when your kid is having a panic attack and you know that

that's what's happening, UM, don't deny that experience. You know, don't tell your child who is you know, freaking out and unable to breathe or you know, is inconsolable, that they're fine. Don't tell them not to worry. Don't tell them you know that it's okay, that everything's okay, because it's not. Nothing feels okay. Things will become okay and they will become fine. But in that moment, they're not.

They don't feel fine, they don't think they're fine. And your job as a parent is to say, I know you don't feel fine right now, and that's okay because we'll get through we'll get through this and then you'll feel fine when this ends. And this will end. It

always ends, you know. I think that some of the things that parents can do for their kids in a panic attack is is, if they're hyperventilating, to breathe with them, UM, to do the four seven eight, which is four inhales and if inhale to on four counts and then hold for seven counts and then exhale for eight counts and um that um sort of kicks in your parasympathetic nervous system to calm down, to calm your body down. UM. So breathing is, obviously, you know, a great thing to do.

Another thing to do is to have visualizations and to say, you know, imagine you're breathing in like blue, cool, healthy, calm air and you're exhaling red, mad, you know, bad feeling air, and give them a job because they need to get out of their head and they also need to feel more control of their body. So if you give them a job to do that you do with them, then they have something else to focus on. Would that job be like the breathing you mean or do you yes,

that's what I mean? No, I mean like the breathing You said something about um, tell them that it's a false alarm, you know, right, yes you could, um, you know, explain to them, um that when you have panic and anxiety, you're overreacting to something. It feels like it's dangerous, but it's not dangerous. And that that you know, just because you feel something this strongly doesn't mean it's a fact. Just because you feel like, um, you're going crazy, it's

not actually a fact that you're going crazy. Just like you because you feel like you're dying and your body is closing down, it's not a fact. And you can point out, I know you feel like you're you know, you can't breathe. But I'm sitting here and I'm watching your your chest rise and fall, I'm watching the breath come out of you. I'm I am your witness, and I am not having a panic attack, and I can

see that you are. You know, your body is doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing, and it's your brain that is making a thinking mistake. And we can get out of that. We can move through this. So you know, things like that, I think are are often pretty helpful. Just don't deny the experience, you know, just sort of point things out to alleviate the terror. The co breathing is so important, you know. I remember when I was in uh, I don't know, my late teens,

I developed a really terrible fear of flying. I only flew once a year with my parents to go on like to Disney World or whatever, and I had stopped going so of the panic attacks. And I think my mom probably realized so this might affect her life in some way, and she found this class for me to take UM at the airport top by a psychiatrist. You know, all these things that we were going to do, very much exposure therapy, but learning to breathe and all that.

But anyway, he give us these take home tapes and yes, cassette tapes, and I played in my little boom box and you had to um lay on the floor and do body scan UM progressive muscle relaxation breathing and it was fun, you know. It was actually we had to do it pre not preemptively is not the word, but you know, every night for up an hour, whether you're anxious or not. And I would just lay on the floor and do it. My parents would join me because it was just like fun. It was like something funded

is great. I don't think they thought were coregulating. You know, they weren't doing that, but it just it made me feel like this wasn't just my problem, but a thing that could benefit everybody. I will I'm gonna say this. I don't know what your relationship is with your mom, but um, to me, from what you you said something earlier that struck me, and to me, she sounds like she was an excellent mother when it came to this

particular topic. Because what you said something you've referenced her about the nuclear war where you said that she's she said, no, we're gonna we're gonna face reality. We're gonna deal with reality. And that is the number one thing that a child with anxiety needs help with, because a child with anxiety is terrified of reality and it's you know, they're they're so caught in the what IF's and the what IF's and the spiraling you know, into terror and imagination, and

they need you know, terrible pun a pilot has. I'm gonna help them steer through reality. And what your mom did was she actually took your hand and said, here, here's how we're gonna face reality. We're gonna you know, watch this movie We're gonna I'm gonna give you. She provided you with information, yeah you needed, And I think that's amazing. It is, and I think at times, you know,

my parents did it. God bless them. I mean we're still we're all really close, but they did it in like a disordered way, you know, like it's like when I thought I was having a heart attack, she validated that, but it's like, you know, she took me to the hospitality to twelve and I did an e KG and they said, you just have stress, and she was like, oh, stress runs in our family. I mean, it was it was all like nothing was like you're crazy or this

isn't happening. But I feel like, you know, there's a happy medium where it's like, let's not act like the child really is having a heart attack. But she didn't know either, you know, It's like she didn't know. But once the panic attacks out of the blue started happening, I did not share that with anybody, and I start

lying and not even lying. I just don't tell anyone what I'm going through, not even friends, And so I have the secret and I have to do all these weird little things to not panic, which obviously don't work, and that is where I think the brain starts changing. We'll continue the interview on the flip side of a

quick message from our sponsors. There's something so sophisticated about the way your book talks about your romantic relationships, where it's like, the ones that didn't work out, it wasn't because you were acting like a crazy sitco or being anxious or you know whatever. But for me, I've had

wonderful relationships. I've had ones, though, where I clung to people that didn't like me, you know, But I've had the bottom line in any relationship that didn't work out beyond just oh we fell out of love and I moved to l A, you know, beyond the those the ones that were really problematic, was like, I'm doing behaviors that I learned growing up that don't have anything to do with being in a romantic relationship, but they have

to do with healing and soothing my anxiety. And I've got anxiety about nothing to do with our relationship, but I'm just acting strange, and people like, what is wrong with you? And I'm like, I don't know, And can you just talk about your romantic relationships and how you think UM kind of living with undiagnosed panic affected them. Yeah, well, I think it's a complicated answer because I think that a couple of things are at play. It's not just

the anxiety, it's the anxious attachment. So I think attachment has a lot to do with UM. Like attachment styles that you have just started reading about this a couple of years ago, and you know there's anxious, avoidant attachment, and secure attachment, and I know they're fluid and we

can kind of go through different periods. I definitely think I had anxious attachment sometimes and sometimes avoidant, you know, right, so that you know when they talk about attachment styles, they're talking about when it comes to your caregiver, the person who raised you. But attachment styles follow you into adult relationships. So the way that you attach with your mother is the way that you're going to attach to everyone. So it's the way that you're going to attach your partners,

it's a way you're going to attach your friends. So it's you know, a lot of that. When you have an anxious attachment style and you have anxiety, it's like

a double whammy. So I think you know, the relationships that I've been in UM, I've chosen people who are withholding, and I've chosen people who sort of trigger my um my core anxieties, and you know, they retreat when I actually need them to come towards me, or they you know, um, they think out loud, and instead of creating some sort of certainty for me, what they do is they perpetuate a chronic uncertainty. And so I'm living in a state of like paralysis because I can't I don't feel safe.

There's no stability, there's no you know, like secure ground for me to walk, and I don't know where I stand. I don't know, you know, what's going to happen tomorrow. And I already feel like that. So when you're in a relationship and that person is actively um, you know, replicating for for you, um, you know how you already feel internally and he's applying it to the external war Old, it's terrifying. So UM, So it's you know, it's it's tough.

It's because I've I've picked the people I've been drawn to have been not good for my anxiety, you know, and so it's, um, it's tricky. And so the people that were more stable it's like they're less kind of it's interesting. Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that my um, the very first serious boyfriend I had in high school, uh, was the most stable and the most um healthy. It was, you know, one of the best relationships I've ever had. It's been all down hill since then. But but so,

you know, he didn't activate my anxiety at all. He really soothed me UM And I think it's because he probably was securely attached and you know, he didn't he didn't remove himself or withhold or withdraw when I would need him to come closer. And it's ironic because we're less needy when we're with those people. It's like exactly right, because you know where you stand. When you know where you stand, you you're not as needy. Um. But when

you don't, it activates everything. So yeah, so it's it's tricky. It's a really hard it's it's really difficult to have anxiety and have relationships. It's hard for both people. UM. But it's doable. It's just it takes it takes a special person. It's definitely doable. And I think for me, the unfortunate thing was I had a lot of things undiagnosed during some of my significant relationships, and so it was like I didn't have a template for them to go or not even for them to do anything, but

for me to go. Don't take this to your partner. This is anxiety about nothing. They don't need to, you know. And it's like for me, I think I just thought that's what relationships are there, the person that fixes you, like literally, just like a childlike thought in my twenties, like, oh, I didn't know you know um, And so I thought that's what everyone was doing. You find someone that takes

away the anxiety. Okay, if the world's gonna end, if there's nuclear war, if my mom's gonna die some day, Well I have a partner, and so that makes anxiety go. I literally thought that, but it comes out in why aren't you going for your career more? Oh, let me pick on you about this, but deep down I'm going,

why can't you make it safe to be human? You know, it's like right now that I know I would never do that again, but you know, I'm exhausted by trying again because it's been so many years of having that be the underlying reason I'm in a relationship that now that I don't need that, I go to wire people in them right now it's just someone in my home, Like,

but no, I don't want that. Yeah, no, I actually I actively think about it, like what you know, I didn't have any template for what a relationship, like what a healthy relationship is supposed to look like, and what I'm supposed to expect from a man like I just I have. I still don't know, And you know, I think that it's you know, it's confusing. It's like, what what is it there for? What are you supposed to be doing with this other person? What? What is the goal?

What's what are you supposed to achieve? What? You know? And I think that when you have anxiety's it becomes very difficult because what because there's a level of not being in control. Right, So with this person who has these flaws and these faults and you and you start getting um sort of bent out of shape because it creates so much anxiety that they're not you really when you realize, oh god, they don't, They're not this way and I need them to be this way. So I'm

gonna try. I'm gonna like hone in on this and try and get them to be this way so that I can be comfortable, so that I can feel certain, so that I can keep moving forward. And it's it's such a misguided UM way to live, but it's you know, what happens a lot. You know, it's just the way the way anxiety steers you. And I think a lot of things get so misdiagnosed that are really just anxiety, like oh your code dependent, Oh you're this. And I never really related to all the little things that like

people said I might have. I was like, no, it's something else. It's it's a way more existential and tied to my panic attacks. I feel there are certain expressions that culture says that us anxious people, we were not allowed to have those because we don't know how to use them. So things like you mentioned this a lot in your book, um falling in love you when you know you know, And that's great for quote normal people, but anxious people we know a lot of things that

aren't true. We feel a lot of things that aren't true. Do you know how many times I've gone well when you know you know? And it's like, I'm not allowed to actually use that UM expression because I have anxiety. And in my thinking is too disordered you to to be able to engage in these silly romantic tropes, like they're very dangerous for me. And uh, and I think it's like I actually think those tropes are dangerous for everybody.

But yeah, but yeah, I just think there's stuff that I've learned, like, Nope, don't worry about what the rest of the world says love is. You do not have the same wiring right, And I think that really truly comes down to values. You know, what do you value? What's your value system? What is it that's important to you? And does this other person you know have that? And if they don't, do you need them to? And if you do and they don't have it, then do you

have a problem. Um, but you know, I think that there's a there. It's not a helpful way to talk about love. To say when you know you know, that just feels very hollywoody and unrealistic because quite honestly, um, I did know. When I was thirty five, I knew I found my guy. He was my guy and he was fucking sociopath. He was so not my guy, you know what I mean? Like, what is knowing? Knowing what you know? Yes, I know exactly how I felt I was possessed by love, but that wasn't love. You know,

we don't know really what love is. We we get confused. We think this feeling that we have it's like, oh my god, you know that's not love, that's in its excitement. Yeah. Yeah,

anxiety bites will be right back after this message. In your book, you talk about like kind of becoming like more of like a punk rock kind of person, and you know, you went through a phase where you're using cocaine and and it's it's so not funny, ha ha, but it's just so interesting, right that like the drug that like think when work for someone with an anxiety disorder. I guess it's very akin to in the exactly in the more medical world. Like you know, I have a

d H d UM. I take Vivans as needed. It calms me down whatever, and when i'm not, I'm like and so I've never done cocaine. That was always too afraid, and I don't think I'll start now, maybe when I'm like eight. But but it is funny though, because okay, so here you are throughout the book, I can't do this because this might happen. Oh my god. Um, you know, you're so regulated and trying to control the world because you're anxious, and there's always a period. And I think

I never talked about this with anyone. So I'm so excited that this episode is a unique bend in the anxious person's life. If you're this kind of person where you go punk rock and you go wild. And for me, it was starting smoking at age fourteen. Now, I've always had um asthma. If I get a cold, it turns into pneumonia, and I'm anxious and terrified of dying. But I start smoking and I do that. I think this is my self diagnosis is because it was the only way, like,

deep down, the answer to our anxiety is being acceptance. Right. You kept saying in your book when you were a kid, I wish what was wrong with me was physical on the outside so somebody could fix it. And so I don't know, do you think that there's a there's a tie in between like kind of being like a punk

and an anxious person. I mean, yes, I do. I'm not sure it's that it's um punk is necessarily the I know I keep saying that as like the catch all word, right, But I think that it's persona and I think that, Um, I think that, you know, I have sort of a different read on the cigarette smoking. Like I started smoking at thirteen fourteen, And yes, I think that part of it was to fit in, But I think another part of the unconscious part was that it was giving us something to do to self sue.

And even if it wasn't, you know, good for you. It was like we we were in the stage where we were growing out of it was embarrassing to need your mommy, you know, and so we had no like, I can't suck my thumb, so I'll just smoke right exactly. I mean I I sucked my finger cell I was eleven. I had to like force myself to stop because it was so embarrassing. But so I sort of went from fingers to cigarettes to food. Um, but so that's your next children's book, by the way, finger cigarettes done. I'll

rob write it when I get off the phone. So I think that that, you know, at least for me, it calmed me down whenever I would get anxiety once I started smoking. Whenever I got anxiety, I would think, oh, I can have a cigarette, and that just that thought alone would calm me down because I felt like, oh, I have like a security blanket, I have something that

soothed me. I think with the per Sona, it's more a little bit about control, control, right, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and and being able to sort of control the message and being able to protect yourself from this mortifying feeling thing inside you, from escaping and from being exposed for being so sensitive and vulnerable and scared, you know, like like a baby. And so I think that it's really too it's like a type of ventriloquism. You're throwing your

voice off, you know. Some people look somewhere else and you're like, oh good, they're they're so caught up in what they see they can't actually see what's inside um. And so I think for me that that was it was what it was. It was. I was controlling the message and and saying I'm I'm not I'm not broken, I'm not scared, I'm not anxious, I'm not a baby, I'm not any other things. I actually am what I am. I'm cool, I'm tough, don't funk with me, back off,

I'll cut you. Like. It's just like nothing like I would not not even remotely true, you know, the projection I had this persona was just it was such fucking bullshit. I was terrified. I was I was like, cry for my mommy at night, and meanwhile, I'm like, your bit, I'll cut you. Like it was not it was crazy funny, like I had a thing where I was less like i'll cut you, but I was more like uh again.

For me, it was like a disordered acceptance, like you know what this anxiety uh and panic that I have it's because I'm like next level smart and anyone news I'm thinking about death all the time is really dumb, you know, a very Morsey like I got really into Morrisey and it's just like if you're not like, oh my god, my friend has a boyfriend, like they're just gonna die, why bother right? And for me it became this protection like I'm better than you because I have

anxist you're like a little goth nihilist. Um that's what I was. But but it's so funny because my mommy, my mommy. I knew my mom e to be mad at me, and she was like, please don't die you hey, black, it looks like shoe polish, And so I didn't. I wasn't allowed to dye my hair. I just had light brown hair, and I wasn't allowed to wear all black, and so I would do what I could get away with. Maybe we're a black sweatshirt with jeans, bring black pants

and change at school, UM, and then change back. And so it's like, oh, the rebel who goes home, so rebel, I can't rebel. I mean, it's so it's charming. Now when I think about it, it's charming. It's too much more. UM. I did want to ask you this in sort of like an artsy FARTZI question. So it's called Little Panic Dispatches from Anxious Life. This is your first nonfiction. You are a novelist normally, right, I mean, I don't even

know anymore. Honestly, I wrote, I wrote one novel for adults, UM, and then I wrote a whole bunch of books fiction books for its. UM. I've written a lot of novels that have not been published UM, and I've been Yes, it's my first nonfiction, but I'm working on another nonfiction book, UM, and I have been grappling with UM with a novel. UM. I think I identify it's funny. I identify as a novelist and I'm I'm actually maybe not really one. Well,

it's funny. I never want to offend the novelist when speaking to them, because I know a lot of novelists, you know, like Elizabeth Gilbert's a great example. UM tend to get really well known if they branch out and write a memoir. And then it's like, I know, but actually I've been doing this the whole time, Yesssholes, and so I don't want to act like you don't have this whole other talent in life. Thank you. That's very, very generous and thoughtful. But what what made you want

to write this book? In the sense of did you always in the back of your head, even when you were younger, go I want to write about this some day. I never wanted to write about it. It was never anything in my head that I thought, you know, I'm gonna write about this one day, I'm gonna never ever ever. But what happened was I started writing a novel. And remember I just I mentioned the four novels that were unpublished. I ended up writing a novel UM that was about UM.

I mean, there are four different versions. I can't even remember all of them, but that was essentially about i Q testing and the group of psychologists who come together and they're trying to create the most comprehensive intelligence test known to man, and they test on all these little kids and they inavertently sucked them up. And it was a very ambitious book that I was ill equipped to write. But so I wrote that, and I was like, this is not working, is not working, and so I sort

of started again and that that wasn't working. And I ended up doing four iterations of this novel, and it occurred to me that what I was doing was I was trying to write a book that I could incorporate all these old i Q tests into, and that um that I was writing something in service of that. And then I was like, okay, well I'll just go off to the side and just try to get that out of my system. And then as I was writing that, I started to think, you know, maybe it's not all

I'm trying to write about. Maybe I'm also like wanting to write about the anxiety that this created in me, and that, you know, the anxiety that I had that no one could see until I started to get that out, and I was just the purpose was just to get it out so I could get it out of my system and go back to the novel and work on the novel as I felt it was supposed to be written.

And the more I wrote on this little side project, UM, I realized, I don't I don't think I've ever read a book about childhood panic and anxiety from the point of view of the child. And and then I thought, well, I would really like to I wish someone had written that. I would like to read that because that would have helped me. And then I thought, well, oh god, am I about to write a memoir? And so I had like a hundred pages of this mess and I, um, you know, called my agent and I said, okay, I

have these two things. I have this you know book, uh, this book about these psychologists. And then I have the hundred messy pages that's I don't even know what it is. And so I gave them both to him and he called me back and he was like, it is this is a memoir and this is it. And I was like, how are you kidding me? Man? And so he was like now, so I So that's what I did, and I,

you know, I was really passionate about it. I was really driven to write it once I decided to do it, but I did go through phases where I was like, I'm sorry, why am I doing this? And I went through this thing where I thought everyone knows this, this is so basic, this is so dumb. I don't know all think that it's not Yeah, it's not true at all. And so yeah, I was mortified. I was like, oh my god, this is gonna come out and people are gonna be like, who is this dumb idiot? Who was

telling us everything we've known are years? That's why I feel on this podcast and like everyone already knows. And it's like even if some people already know, maybe they need to hear it from this point. I mean, whatever, who cares? And here's what I think. Here's what I think. I think even if people know, this is a kind of topic you can't really get enough of, right, you know, people want to know more. They want to know it from a different angle. They want to know it from underneath,

they want to know it from above. Like I think that, yeah, one day it could be too much, um but I think right now, you know, people are starting to realize, oh wait, I didn't recognize that word as the thing that I'm actually suffering from. But now that I hear you talk about it, I realized I think I have this or you know, now that I'm reading this book, I realized that maybe I had this as a kid. Like I've gotten letters from people are letters that's not

true at all, email mail. I'm mail mail written on someone wrote me a scroll once. Um, so I, um, you have got an emails when people are like I didn't realize that this was what was wrong with me, and you know, or I didn't realize that this is what's going on with my kid and I've been doing it all wrong or and that's why I wrote it, you know, for for the people who to just don't know. Um. And if you were to ask the people who do know, if you were to say, what is anxiety, they'd be

hard pressed to answer it. Yeah, and and it's different for everyone. And you know, I will tell you this is my letter to you. I mean, as we talked about earlier in the interview for fun, I read about psychology anxiety listen to podcast, but I mean it's like

the same person. Yeah, oh no, we totally are. It's insane and you know I've been doing that I'm forty seven now, so I don't know a long time, and I thought, I'm not in an arrogant way, but I thought I knew pretty much everything to know about myself and your book with that's what I want to talk about relationships. I and I knew about attached themselves all that. But there was something that just tweaked in my brain where I went the way I had to. It's specific

not to having panic attacks. It is the specificity of undiagnosed for decades childhood panic that created behaviors in me and longings and needs that are disordered that come out in romantic relationships, or did in the past. I did not have that sentence. No therapist has said it. Maybe we've danced around it. Maybe everyone assumed I knew, but you I would not say the sentence I just said,

unless I've read your book. Really Yeah, It's like I had an epiphany reading it this week and I was like, oh, that's a cool way to think of it. You know, just more information for me, different ways to frame it, and so um. You know, even people who think they know at all, you can know it differently, you know, or and we all choose change too, Like our stories

change that we tell ourselves about ourselves. And and you were you were my shirt but for this week and this in this journey, and and yeah, I really feel like the little kid in me is like, oh, she made a friend, you know, like that that little kid that didn't know anyone else that panicked, Like now she's she's got you from the eighties in in there with her. So thank you again so much as to meet you YouTube. This was awesome. I hope you enjoyed my chat with

Amanda Stern again. Go to the show notes to find out more about Amanda and get her book and sign up for her newsletter. Before you do all that, before I give you the takeaways from this week's episode. All I Want for Christmas is a five star review on Apple Podcast. So please, please, please please, If you have three to five minutes, I'm gonna I'm gonna knock it down to one to three minutes. I don't think it's gonna take you that long give a five star review.

You can just write two sentences about how much you love the podcast. If you are on social media, you can find me on Twitter at Jen Kirkman and use the hashtag anxiety Bites podcast. Let me know how you like the show. You can find me on Instagram at Jen Kirkman and that is h j E n K I r K m A and and tag me in your Instagram stories. Just tell anyone and everyone how much you like the show. That way I can retweet you or repost you and it will make my followers say, oh,

I haven't tried that podcast. Maybe I should. Everyone seems to be talking about it. So thanks again, I really appreciate it. So here are some of the takeaways. And I loved chatting with Amanda about, you know, helping kids, because again, we don't have kids. You know, don't come to me with needing advice on diaper rash. I can't help you. But just because you're a mom or a dad doesn't mean that you know what to do with

a kid who has panic disorder. Right, maybe you didn't have it, and you you don't really understand what they're going through. So that's why you need auntie's like us who've had panic to tell you what helps and what doesn't because we've been kids with panic disorder. So a lot of these takeaways will be kind of focused on that. So let's take it away So, for example, there's nothing obviously that you as a parent can do about something like death, but you can do something about explaining to

your kids, for example, what happens after you die. You can say things to them like, if I die and you were still a child, here's what will happen, Here's where you go, here's where you live, talking to them in a realistic way. It's terrifying, but it's less terrifying than not knowing. When a man wants people to understand about anxiety, for people who don't really understand it, especially child and anxiety, is that it's the uncertainty that is

so distressing. If a child is constantly asking what if? What if? What if? They're actually asking is can you give me some certainty either way, either it's a yes, this bad thing happens, or yes, this good thing happens, or no, none of this happens. When people with anxiety are asking for a sense of certainty, it doesn't mean that they want you to be positive. It just needs

to be honest. The deep psychological thing is that when you're someone with anxiety, the unknown becomes a kind of extinction, a type of death. So, in this very philosophical way, being terrified of not knowing something equals death, which can be pretty intense for a kid. If your kid or a child you know is having a panic attack and you know that that's what's happening, don't deny their experience.

Don't tell them that they're fine, don't tell them not to worry, don't tell them it's okay, because it's not. For them. Nothing feels okay. Things will become okay, and they will become fine, but in that moment, they don't feel like they are. So your job is to say, I know you don't feel fine right now, and that's okay, but you will feel fine when this ends, and this

always ends. Another thing you can do for yourself, or if you know a kid who's hyperventilating, is to breathe with said kid, or breathe with yourself and your inner kid. You can do the four seven eight, which is you inhale on four accounts and then you hold your breath for seven counts and you exhale for eight counts. If you want to help a kid with a panic attack, you can have them do a visualization and tell them imagine you're breathing in blue, cool, healthy calm, air, and

you're exhaling red, mad, bad feeling air. If you have a child that's old enough to understand this, you can explain to them that when you have panic and anxiety, basically they're just overreacting to something. It feels dangerous, but it's not dangerous. Just because you feel something strongly doesn't mean it's a fact. Just because you feel like you're going crazy, it does not mean that you are actually going crazy. Just because you feel like you're dying, it

does not mean that your body is closing down. It is not a fact. You can point things out to someone who's having a panic attack, whether it's a child or another adult. You can say things like, I know you feel like you can't breathe, but I'm sitting here and I'm watching your chest rise and fall. I'm watching

the breath come out of you. I am your witness, and I am not having a panic attack, so I can see that your body is doing what it's supposed to be doing, but your brain is making a thinking mistake. Children with anxiety are terrified reality, and they're so caught up in what if would if would if that they start to spiral into terror and imagination and what they

need is someone to help them steer through reality. Thanks again for listening and uh new episodes all through the month of December right through the holidays, So if that appeals to you, there you go, and just remember anxiety bites, but you're in control. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.