Depresh Mode

it gets more popular. Then I Heart Radio says hey, let's do another season. Then the show gets more popular, then I help more people with anxiety, and then maybe I can branch out and do other things from there that I have big dreams about. But no pressure, it's just my dreams on the line. Anyway. Do you have um a side of depression with your anxiety? I know

that for me. If I had to pick one one thing that affected my life more anxiety or depression, I would I would definitely say anxiety, but I think at one point in my life I would have said depression. And I think it changes depending on my perspective. Sometimes the more I learn about things that I do, I realize, oh wait, that's an anxiety based thing that I do. That's just that's not just the way things are or the way I am that can be fixed with cognitive

behavior therapy or whatnot. And I wanted to talk to my guest today, John Moe. He is the host of a podcast called Depression Mode. He has written a book called The Hilarious World of Depression, And so obviously John Moe is someone who has experienced and has depression. And I like to keep this podcast really just very specifically about anxiety, certain anxiety disorders. I mean, there is so

much we haven't even gotten to yet. And again, don't worry, there are I think at least thirty more episodes coming. And again, once you write those iTunes reviews, then I get a season two, we can cover even more. I mean, there's just so much to cover about anxiety. So I always want to be like, it's not just an overall mental health podcast that would be really focused on anxiety.

But talking to John Jay was very interesting because he opened my eyes to the fact that actually, the way he looks at things right now is that sure he might have depressed any amount of anxiety, but at the end of the day, when he needs to apply his tools to get through something doesn't really matter what he's

labeling it. And I found that very interesting because I was going to conduct the interview in a way that it's it's like, you know, let's let's just talk about how depression informs your anxiety or anxiety informs your depression, and then it went a totally other way, which is just like it doesn't really matter quite and I got everything I wanted out of chatting with John. So I

love when things work out that way. But you know, there are certain episodes where I might interview a professor neuroscientists, I want to ask them about their research. And then there are the more conversational episodes where if I ask someone about their artistry, if they're a writer, if they're a podcaster, and ask them more about their personal story, obviously we're going to get a ton of gems about

how they cope. But I also feel like every once in a while we need an episode like this so that people can just hear stories of other people and relate. You know, Um, you hear a funny guy talking and you go, wait, he goes through this and that thing that he's describing, All right, Well, well, that's interesting. So you know, I met John I think for the first time, I might have been. He used to host a great and popular comedy radio show called Wits, and it was

taped out of St. Paul, Minnesota. So I went up there, I think a couple of times to do that show. And I remember we were on a break from the rehearsal that day. Was it was I mean, it was a big show. It was like in a theater and there was music and all kinds of tech and I mean big rehearsals, and John wrote a bunch of sketches and we were all on this break and chatting and he said something to me about depression and anxiety, and oh, yeah, I have that too, And it was just very chit chatty.

It wasn't like some in depth discussion. And I didn't know to the extent of which John had any depression or anxiety problems, and he didn't know the extent of mine. It was just a real quick thing. But I think we were both searching around that time for a way to incorporate talking about these things into our art. And then eventually we've both made shifts into kind of making in its own thing. You know, it's not just oh, I'm going to write a sketch about anxiety or depression.

I'm going to write some jokes about it. It's well, I'm going to do a podcast, right, you know, it doesn't have to be funny where we explore depression. And for me, you know, I'm gonna do a podcast where it doesn't have to be funny. It can be. It's great if it ends up being sometimes to keep you know, there a sense of levity about this, let's talk about

anxiety and so I just think it's cool that. I don't know if you would tapped us on the shoulder whatteen and said, you know what, you two are both like independently going to start your own podcasts about anxiety and depression. I don't know if we would have thought that that seemed like a thing that would happen. So anyway, I'm putting the link in the show notes to All

Things John so you can buy his work again. He's the host and creator of the podcast Depression Mode with John Moe and his former award winning podcast The Hilarious World of Depression. He has a memoir of the same name, The Hilarious World of Depression. He has also written three other books. His writing has appeared in The New York Times magazine mc sweeney's, The Seattle Times, in many publications, and he gives speeches around the country on mental health issues.

So you can check out his podcast again. It's called Depressed Mode. D E. P R. E. S H. Will link to everything in the show notes and then, of course for you gen xers out there, enjoy how this interview evolves or de evolves. I'll leave that up to you into two gen X people I don't know talking wistfully about their very misunderstood and very underappreciated generation. But really, would we have it any other way? I hope you

enjoy my conversation with John Mark. People cannot get enough of hearing that another human being who you know is doing quite well. It has a life, has you know, family, has jobs, is functioning, but they have anxiety and in your case, you also have depression. So so let's start there. You you have your podcast Depression Mode, and tell me about it, and then let's talk about like, what's your

current relationship today to depression and if if anything, anxiety. Yeah, So Depression Mode is a show that that I've been doing for a little while now, UM, And it's kind of a continuation of my former show, The Hilarious World of Depression, UM. This one is a little more based on a wide variety of the common mental ailments and

obstacles that we run across. So it's not just depression, it is anxiety and trauma, UM, O c D. Just a bunch of things that that are all around us, that are you know, on in the next person you meet,

there might be something like that going on. And you know, like you said, it's it's a lot of conversation with people that people like to hear about the kind of the fundamental root of drama, right, Like a person meets up with an obstacle and they need to negotiate their way through it, around it, um, carry it with them more often than not, and and learn how to manage it.

I mean very rarely does someone face something like this, and and you know, I'll just go to a therapist for two and a half sessions and then I'll be cured and will be gone. It's more a matter of like how do you live with it? How do you

adjust to it? And and move forward from there. And then we do some interviews with some experts on all sorts of things mind body connection, some episodes about like what exactly, Like everybody uses the word bipolar, what exactly is that there's a lot of terms in mental health that are used more often than they are understood, and so we try to get to the bottom of that. I think there was a second part of your question.

Was the second part. I tend to ask four questions at once that nobody could possibly remember what I'm saying, like today and I mean I don't I mean literally today, But what's your relationship to depression and anxiety today? How do you wake up every day in cope? And does it affect you every day? And are you medicated to tell us all the details? Yeah, no, I I I'm engaged in talk, therapy and medication UM and mostly I have it pretty well under control. Lately, it's been rougher.

I'm going through a really rough patch and I don't know if it's if it's a weather thing. You know, I live in Minnesota and this is the time of year that it gets very very dark and very cold, like prohibitively cold, like you know, you don't really want to go walk the dogs when it gets below ten degrees um and and it's rougher um. So I've been having a harder time um and that's been manifesting itself by uh, it's just a little hard. Like I have

to write an episode of my show. I kind of planned for a monologue episode and I got to write the dang thing, and uh, you know, I'm just sort of like staring at the page and like, Okay, what do I have to say? What wisdom do I have to say? I And then a voice says, you have no wisdom, You're stupid and worthless. Nobody wants to hear

what you have to say. And and you know, so my training, the work that I've done so far is to recognize cognitive distortions and to say, oh, okay, that's not really true, like the voice saying you're an idiot, you don't know anything about this stuff. Nobody wants to hear from you, Like I have proof that that's not true. I know, I know for a fact. And so at that point I need to do uh some kind of conscious rerouting saying Okay, that's not true. Where do I

go with this? What is the truth? How do I get to the truth? How do I kind of dig around, um, you know, rechannel that thought stream, um, and and make the river go in a different direction. Um. And I can do that sometimes, like lately, it's a lot harder and it just takes a lot more work, and um, you know it takes like, Okay, do I need to reevaluate what my meds are doing right now? You know I had I changed up my meds a while ago because they weren't working very well. Like how is this

new configuration working? What are the side effects of this med that I'm taking? Is it likely that's kicking in? Um? You know, how do I feel about increasing dosage? So you know, I always tell people it's it's a lot like um, the norm e's get to live, except they do it unconsciously to get to get to this better place, to get to a healthier place. I can get there too. It's just you know, they get to drive and I have to walk kind of thing. Well, I love that

you just said I can get there too. I mean it's these simple things that jump out at me sometimes that I hear people say and I go, oh, that's so just relaxes me. What a nice reminder. And then also, you know, I bet there's one person listening, go, I actually didn't know that. I didn't know you could get to a place where you are functioning normally or even feeling normal, like you know, And I just just thank you for saying that. But I want to drill down

even really specifically. So okay, so this is how it can manifest in a creative person's life. For example, of your life and you're sitting there and you have to write your thing, and the voice comes in and says you're stupid, idiot, and it's coming from inside the house, it's in your head, and you do your rerouting. But in that moment, can you do enough that you can then finish what you're doing or just get a little bit started? And then how does what is it? What

happens right after? Well, I mean the only way I can get to an after is if I spend some time really recognizing what's actually going on. And this is a mistake that I used to make. So I used to say, okay, that's not true. How do I get back to the right place? And and it didn't work until I could say, all right, what am I feeling right now? I am feeling? You know, I'm hearing from a voice in my head that's been with me for a very long time that I'm stupid, I'm worthless, nobody

wants to what I have to say. And I take a moment to really soak that in and not so much as a system of belief, but like, okay, where in my body is that? Like, oh I feel that in my chest, I feel that in my you know, in my eyes, like wherever it is, and really soaked that in. Get to know that opponent and then say, okay, now let's apply a layer of reality to it, and let's let's gently guide it. Oh it doesn't want to go okay, well let's let's not yank on it to

get there, but let's keep guiding it towards there. And that generally works sometimes. You know. I was, I was working on this, uh, the show that I have to write, like two days ago, and I said, just screw this, and I went for a walk and thought more about what I wanted to say without trying to type it, and you know, went for a long walk without headphones and just got the blood circulating and and uh, and that helped, which is one of many techniques that I've

found works for me. You know, not everything works for everybody, but like that's one like okay, put that one on the scorecard and put that one in the in the arsenal and the cupboard what everyone and and so you know, it's it's that awareness and then it's a little bit of kindness and a little bit of patience. Um. And you know, people I worked with closely know that I might sometimes say yeah, I couldn't do it today, and they're like, okay, you know, and and then and then

I can. I can get to it later. So in that moment when you're stopping and saying, oh, I can't get this writing done because I have to now stop and use my tools, Okay, well this is sometimes what I have to do. And I think that what you said was so important that you don't just stop and say, well, this isn't true. I'm not a stupid loser, Okay, now

start writing. It's like more self abuse, you know. And that's obviously why I hate the whole positive thinking movement and all that kind of stuff, because it's not about positive versus negative. It's really true versus untrue in a way. Well, it's it's the kindness is something that you would probably have no problem applying to someone else. You know, if your friend was in distress and you know, having having panic episodes, whatever it is, as you would say, oh, well, sure,

that's the thing that happens. How can I help, how can I support you? You know, tell me about it, whatever you need. And for whatever reason, it's a lot harder to you know, apply that to yourself. It's easy to give a break to everybody else, but you know, except for one person in the world. Yeah, well it's interesting too, because that thing you're doing when you when you can't write and you decided to take a walk instead, or you sit with your feelings. I love that. It's

like that, really is it. It's like our little feelings are begging to be heard by us in that moment. It doesn't mean they're rational and you know, but they're there and we have to just sit with it and sometimes just by facing them they kind of go away. But I think what you're doing, that's where the work is. I mean, you learn that stuff in therapy, but then

you apply it in real life. And I don't know if a lot of people do these kind of things in these you know, in these moments, but that's where the work is, And it doesn't mean therapy is not working. It means no, no, no, you're using the tools you were given. I'm not saying that you haven't seeing this audience.

You're using the tools you were given, and you're going up to practice this, maybe over and over and that the fact that you in the moment stop something in its tracks doesn't mean you totally rewired it that day. But over time it does change you, don't you think? Yeah, well, I mean you use the word work, and that's such an important part. I In the old days when I would go to therapy, I kind of thought of it

as something more like getting a car fixed. Like you you drop off your mind and they fix it up for you and then you drive away. Um. It was only when when I was just getting my ass kicked by this stuff so much, you know, depression and anxiety, that that I said, I need to work harder at this, you know, I need to be an active participant. And I was fortunate to find a really great therapist, and

I noticed the difference in that therapy pist was. At the end of the sessions, I was exhausted, you know, because I had been through a workout. Right, It's been like physical therapy, like if you hurt your your knee or something like by the end you're like, oh, I had a workout, and and you know, it is a

lot of work. And I always tell people, like, one of the reasons that people with depression are tired so much is because it's exhausting, you know, like like and and it's exhausting to either get beaten up or to fight back. And you know, I'll choose the ladder, um, but it's it's a lot of work. And so tell me how depression and anxiety do a dance with you. I know, for me, Um, I swear to gone to this day, I keep changing my mind on if I ever had depression, if it wasn't all a d h

D or anxiety or the exhaustion from anxiety. But I do know one thing that whenever my big waves of depression would hit it they really haven't in a long time unless something bad happens, you know. But the kind that come out of nowhere, which is what depression is, those were such a respite from the anxiety. And I almost felt very fearless during my depressive times because I just you know, I just didn't care. And with anxiety

or you're in such high alert. Do you do you relate to that or is it is it a little different where you can't really tell the difference sometimes Well, I mean, the more time I spend on on this topic, and I've been doing it for several years now, but the more time I spend on it, the less dedicated I am to the idea of the specific disorder. Um you know, because like I think it was my therapist

somebody told me a while ago. The disorders those are insurance terms, um you know, so you can say I have major depressive disorder, I have generalized anxiety disorder, I have whatever whatever you want to put with it. It's helpful, it's helpful to understand what people who have felt similar things go through. But those words in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual exists largely so that, uh, you don't have to pay out of pocket to get treatment for all those things.

The insurance company can recognize it as an illness and pick up part of the bill, and that you can get treatment, and that the person treating you can get paid. And like I've been more of a believer that that people have complicated things going on, and they they you know often, I mean, I often called depression anxiety the hollow notes of common mental illnesses because they don't have

strong solo careers. Uh, they're they're usually a pair. And uh it's interesting sometimes to figure out, okay, is the anxiety leading to depression? Is a depression lead into anxiety? UM? But it almost feels like a parlor game at a certain point, because if they're both there, you know, then then they both need to be dealt with. UM. And so yeah, I mean I I certainly have had both UM.

But you know, like I I interviewed Mike bur Biglia a while ago, and and he was talking about how he had never been diagnosed with depression, but then he described things that had been going on with himself, and you know, I'm not a psychiatrist, but I thought, I'm not sure sounds like depression to me. But the larger point was that it didn't really matter, Like he had some complexities in his life that he was trying to manage, you know, and you could you could call it whatever

you want. So I think I think the terms are helpful, UM, but it also can run the risk of oversimplifying UM to think that you have one but not the other and and you know whereas the real situation is that your mind is getting in your way and you've got to find a way to manage it. Yeah, you just opened my eyes on that one. Like, Yeah, I love to name things, and I think when you when one first has something like again, I have so many people that listen to this podcast and reach out to me

and say, well, I don't have anxiety. But and then they list because they think it's like some big doctor has to come in a lab coat and put electrodes on their head and you know, and so you know, to determine that they have anxiety because it's this big, bad disease and instead of something that pretty much I think everybody has. So I think it's helpful when you're first dipping your toe in it too, label like it's

just such a relief when something has a name. And then but yeah, you're right, as we are so experienced with it now and you and I go throughout day to day things, it doesn't really matter. It's like I have my tools, I have that feeling whatever the thing is. Yeah, well, I mean all the disorder means is that it's interfering with living your life. The way you want to live it. And so like, if if if your obsessive compulsiveness is making you late for work, that then it's an obsessive

compulsive disorder because it's interfering with your life. If if your depression the you know that you're feeling is meaning that you're not really making healthy meals for your kids when you need to be, then that's a disorder. That's that's interfering. It's nothing really more mystical than that. There isn't like a chemical threshold you need to reach. It's just it's messing things up. Bloom, It's a disorder. Anxiety bites will be right back after a quick little message

from one of our sponsors. When you were just a young thing on this earth, you know, obviously who knows what you knew then, what you didn't know then. But looking back on it with the adult narrative, when do you ink depression, anxiety, just all your general things started to Did they interfere with your life as a kid?

Did did you notice it? Yeah? Um, usually I say seventh grade because that's when I really remember the first wave of like, oh, something is happening to me and I don't know what it is, but I can't function, and I better keep this a secret because I've never heard of anybody else going through this. UM. That's when

that happened. UM. I grew up with UM. So my parents grew up in Norway during World War Two and during the Nazi occupation, and that resulted in all kinds of traumas for them, severe traumas, life or death scenarios, often death of people around them. UM My dad didn't have access to really great cognitive behavioral therapy, and post war Norway cigarettes in vodka, however, were plentiful and that was the preferred method of treatment, and he stuck with

those his whole life. And so I grew up in UM in a house with substance use and all the deadening effects of that and the the unreliable narrative that that produces. And so I think there was you know, I I kind of started out thinking in recent years that it's fifty fifty where these things come from. It's either innate or it's environmental. I'm much more a believer in the environmental side than I used to be. I'm much more of a believer in the trauma as basis

for it. UM because when you're when you're in a situation, especially in childhood, when you're in a home where things aren't working and aren't being acknowledged as as not working. Um, you get into often one of two very rational responses, depression or anxiety. In my case, like there was stuff going on, and with depression you can not feel it as much. So your body tells itself and your brain tells itself to deaden up to to just you know,

not feel as a defensive mechanism. I know people who grew up in in physically abusive homes, and I wasn't one of those, but I know people who have who developed a lot of anxiety because you've got to be on guard, you know, because there might be a fist or a plate head in your way and you need to be on the lookout all the time. It's a very uh, very rational response to the situation. The trick is later when the threat passes and you can't let

go of those things. That is ding ding ding. That is really to me, I think that is some thing that I don't know who needs to understand this. Does anybody listening that the coping mechanisms we use for one thing, they don't. Well, first of all, they're not good coping mechanisms, but they're good for you know, there there what we had at the beginning, whatever in quotes bad coping mechanisms we used, but they don't just stay in their little place.

Then it becomes almost for lack of a better word, your personality. It's it's all the time, and and you train yourself to become this person. It would be like if you went to somewhere cold and wore winter coat there and then you left and you never took it off, and now you're living in Florida and you walk around in a downcoat like it doesn't that's not helpful. But

you know, these analogies are terrible. And keeping that one in well, I mean it's like my my parents, for whatever else was going on with them, they loved me a lot, and I have h I love kids a lot. I can freely express my love for my kids. It's a wonderful, wonderful thing. It's warm. So that's that wasn't a problem. But I held onto Okay, there's a threat going on, there's a variable I can't control in my life.

I'll shut down, I'll feel nothing, I'll turn against myself, you know, all these things, and it it it drives me crazy, although I've I've sort of just learned to accept it to some extent. When people characterize therapy, whether it's guided by a professional or just your own journey of understanding of yourself, that that it's seen as oh, well, you know, you just you go in there and then

you hate your mother. You go in there and you you know, and it's not that I love my mother, I love my my late father, but um, but it's a way of saying, like, Okay, here's how I was made, and unless I made changes along the way, that's baked into who I am. This is the programming, this is the construction of what I am. And so that's the baseline of a kind of enlightened or semi enlightened adulthood to say, Okay, that's what my brain is set up to do. How can I change that? How can I

alter that? And and that's the that's the journey. But you can't you can't understand where you are or where you're going without thoroughly understanding where you've been. But once you can look at someone else's story and say, well, my god, how could they possibly have known, you know, anything about you know, their own emotions. They're not going to suddenly pass on to me some tools that they didn't have. I tell my kids, I just want to screw you up in a different way than I was

screwed up. I just want some novelty introduced, you know, some variation in the gene pool of messing up. Um. But you know, I I wrote, I wrote a memoir, The Hilarious World of Depression. It's a great book. Everyone get it. Will link to it in the show notes. Sorry, thank you, And a lot of it deals with with my parents and talks about what they've been through. And uh, my mom was terrified about this. I mean, she's eighty seven, and she's just didn't want a lot of this stuff

out there because, you know, for lots of reasons. And and she's like, I just don't want to be seen as the bad guy. And I said, well, there's there's no bad guys. Um, there's just the Nazis are the bad guys. Let's all remember this and we should punch them as much as possible. Um. But I said, it's I I just want to portray the situation that you were in the struggle that you were in and uh.

And she when the book came out, she kept it in the closet of her apartment, and then after a couple of days, she would open the closet and put the book in the doorway, and then a couple more days she'd move it down the hall towards her living room. And so it's this extremely slow stop motion animation that it and it finally got to her and then she she read it and she loved it, even though it

had those hard things. She said, Oh, I understand now, I understand that you're just writing about people's experiences and you're trying to help other people. I'm sittings, that's it. Well that I want to ask you about helping other people. Um, I will tell you really quick, just like a fun story from someone without kids, who I have a really good example of how you uh really just don't know

how you're going to screw kids up. But years ago, ten fifteen years ago, my friend his sister was coming to town and she brought her son with her, and uh, at the last minute, her husband couldn't come to town, so it's just her and the kid, and my friend wanted to dinner alone with his sister, and they were staying at this fancy hotel and they were just going to go down to the lobby and I said, you know what, I'll babysit the kid. And so they put the kid to sleep. He was about five, and I

was just in the other room. Um. They told him that, you know, if he wakes up, there's gonna be this girl their named Jen. Anyway, he wakes up because he's having nightmares because he didn't like the flight. And I, you know, talk about this in the pockets all the time, but I had terrible fear flying my whole life and got over it, and my life's goal is to help people with fear a flying. And so I thought, here's the moment I can parent this kid. And I said, well,

what what didn't you like about the plane? And he said all the noises and the clanging and the this and the and I explained him what each noise was and then it was actually means the plane is working exactly as it should and he said, oh okay. And see he got really excited for the flight home. And they were like, Jen, I can't believe it. You've cured him.

He's actually excited for the flight home, and cut to I get a call from my friend who told mean that the kid had the worst panic and anxiety on the flight home because throughout the flight it was just very quiet, you know that kind of airplane. And he's like, he's not making noises. We're gonna crash, the girl told me. And it's like I thought I was like inspiring the next generation, and I'm the code. I made it worse. So it's like, you know, I can imagine what it's

like to parent. I feel like every day would just be full of those things that you know. Had had my friend not told me that, I would never have known, and I'd be telling the tale of how I cared a child of fear flying. Like half the time, you don't get the feedback that you did it wrong, you know, in the in the immediate. So I give you a lot of granted And I can't wait until your kids write a book about you. I'll have them on the podcast. My my kids, my oldest to have three kids, The

oldest two are are in college now. So then you get to discover what they have to say about you. On social media. And so my my son tweeted the other day about how because he had a history an interest in history. He's a history major. Um, I took him to see Lincoln, the Dan day Lewis Lincoln. Yeah, And I was like, what a wonderful parent, I'm taking him to see Lincoln. And he tweeted the other day, my dad took me to see Lincoln when I was a kid, and I got so bored that I cried

in the theater out of boredom. I was so despondently bored that I wept in the theater. And I just replied, Yeah, that that one's on my parenting highlight reel. That's He's like, I almost lost my love for his story. Yeah, I almost killed it. Or Daniel day Lewis killed it. Let's blame him. We'll be right back. So you mentioned a little bit ago before I went on that jag about the kid in the airplane that, um, you know you wrote your book. You wanted people to share their stories.

You wanted to share your story to help people. I hate origin of a feeling questions like when did you know you wanted to help people? I don't mean it like that, but I guess do you have any thoughts? Can we explore? I include myself in this. Why do we want to help people when we're not finished ourselves? Um, it's not obviously from this huckster place of give me all your money and I've got the cure. But it does helping people help. I mean, I know the answer

is yes, but I think it's more than that. What is it? Well, for me, it's really simple. Um My my older brother had untreated depression and he shot himself and he died, and and he had been working on a narcotics anonymous hotline. He was he was in recovery and was just dedicated every spare minute he had to helping people. Could believe everybody's life was worth living, except his own. And he had kept it so shut down

about himself that um that he died of it. And so I decided, all right, I can talk, you know, I'll I'll make it my mission to get more people talking. And so that's you know, I talked about that in my show. Every week we're here to get more people talking. We want more people to talk so that they can realize they're not alone, you know, so that the people

we love can stay here so we can love them more. Um. And for me, it's It took a long time to kind of get to that idea of being here to help, because I mean, I I was an actor for a while when I was younger, and so then I was like, I'll put on a show. I was in radio. I'll put on a show. You know, did a lot of comedy, you know, I'll make people laugh all this stuff, and and it's great is and it's rewarding. Um. But I got to a point where I was like, you know,

I'm I'm middle aged. What do I want to do with this time left? What am I supposed to do? What should I do? And Um, I ran into a situation where, uh, my wife had an appendeck to me or appendicitis, severe appendicitis that went into sepsis while we were traveling, while we were in Wyoming. Um, and we got her back to St. Paul and she survived, but it was so close, and and I thought, what am

I really supposed to do here? And the only really, the only thing I could think of, because I'm not religious, I didn't prey on it. I just thought, well, maybe you could just help people a little bit more, Maybe you could make people feel a little bit better about the situation. That they're in. Um, you know, because when I'm when I'm at my most recessed with the depression, the anxiety, everything like that, I can realize, oh the wind is blow and fill that wind on my skin.

Look at that the blue sky, or look at that gray sky, look at those amazing clouds. Um. And if I can offer that to more people, um, you know, who are in this you know, and I'm I can still look at it bleakly, I can still say, Okay, this temporary pile of atoms that makes up a person that will soon disperse and become a different thing later on. Um,

you know. That's how can I make that brief journey through life that we have a little bit better and not so terrifying because life is a sort of sick joke when you think about it, like like we're here and then we're gonna die and they tell you and yeah you find out the end. There's no, Yeah, there's no, and it's gross. It's such a mean joke that if I can just make it a little bit better and if people want to give me a few dollars to make that happen, so much the better. But that's what

it's about. Money, I all this blah blah blah blah. How it's about them money. I knew it cash, that's what you know. That's why I got into membership based podcasting. You know, that's where it is. Well, it's funny you and I have a similar thing. You You mentioned your first instinct was to keep your feelings and depression a secret, and so did I. And you know, although we are not gen Z. We we did not grow up in

the eighteen hundreds. We had running water and everything, and our instinct was to keep it a secret, and that instinct was validated by the world. And so I hope we are um making a difference. And I know that you are, for sure by by talking about this and giving such, you know, inspiration and hope to other people. Um, it's we're gen X though, so then we have an innate knowledge that everything is stupid and boring. We'll see, that's the thing. And I think this is what I

want to tell the younger. We're forgotten about during all this, but that's and I think we've been right about a lot of that. We've been right about everything. And I feel bad for the young people because I think they're in such a bad place mentally because they had hope. And I'm not even trying to be funny. Um, we never did to me. One of the lyrics in a song that spoke to me just so much. I mean, and it's such an obvious gen X anthem of was Nirvana with I find it hard. It's hard to find.

Oh well whatever, never mind. Like I remember hearing that and thinking that's it, that right there, and it's funny. I wanted to write a book about like the Buddhism of gen X, like how we it's not that we don't care, we care very deeply, but we had this also like we are really up against it, you know, like how like not every second of the day can be spent in hyper vigilant it's about changing the world.

It just can't. You won't survive. It's not that I don't want to give them their proper you know, validation that life's really hard. I think there's a hyper vigilance they've been taught to have by the horrible people who you know, I want them addicted to the internet, which is anxiety. That is anxiety. Yeah, no, it's I mean, now I'm thinking of Jesus Jones because I am jen X, and that's what we do. You know, it's not it's not that you're uh, you're watching the world wake up

from history. You don't have to wake the world up from history, you know, right here, right now. Yeah, look, Jen, I'm I'm sorry to bring up Jesus Jones. I'm sure everybody on your show is always bringing up Jesus Jones. The neuroscientists, they can't stopping, they can't stop to it. John, This is devolved into a wonderful I'm not even being sarcastic jen X discussion. It's so organically happened here and it makes me so happy. Are you? Are you a

singles person or a reality bites person? Reality bites hence the title of the podcast a little nod to it. As I've often said on Twitter, like I would kill anyone if Winona even suggested that maybe I should. So, I'm fiercely loyal to Winona. Writer to a dangerous thread. Great way to end up mental health podcast. I'm a

woman of my word. Did I tell you that we would evolve or de evolve into a conversation about Generation X. I love that I ended the interview on John saying he would kill for Winona Writer, because I mean, we did keep talking for a few minutes after that, but I told the editors let's just stop there. I think it's funny and hopefully John doesn't mind. Oh and I hope none of you get in between him and Winnown

Writer because he has warned you. All Right, but I've got some great takeaways here from this episode, so let's recap some of the things that we've learned from John. Right.

One way to get out of a anxiety or depression, funk or spiral is to recognize cognitive distortions, which are really another way of saying, you know, a little voice saying to you, you're an idiot, you don't know anything about this stuff, nobody wants to hear from you, and then recognizing that as a cognitive distortion and starting to turn it around by saying, you know, I have proof

that that's not true. After recognizing a cognitive distortion, it's time to do some conscious rerouting, asking yourself questions, Okay, that cognitive distortion is not true. Now where do I go? What is the truth? How do I get to the truth. Sometimes if you're on medication, there are moments when you have to look at that factor and say, do I need to reevaluate what my medication is doing right now? You know, how is this new configuration of medication work.

What are the side effects of the medication that I'm taking? Is the medication kicking in? How do I feel about increasing dosage? These are things that you have to keep up on. They don't just become automatic once you start doing them. When you're recognizing a cognitive distortion, there can be a temptation to say, okay, I recognize it, move on, But really the next step is asking yourself, all right,

what am I feeling right now? If i'm if I'm hearing this little voice that's telling me I'm stupid and an idiot and I'm worthless. Where in my body is that? Do you feel it in your chest? Do you feel it in your eyes? Wherever it is? Get to know it? And then after that you can apply the layer of reality to those thoughts and gently guide them back to the truth, and if they don't want to go there, keep guiding it. But every once in a while you can just say, you know what, to get up and

take a walk. And every once in a while, when you can't exactly turn things around, that day. If you have some understanding people in your life that understand how you work, sometimes you can always say, yeah, I couldn't do it today. When we're dealing with rerouting our brain from a cognitive distortion to the truth. Kindness is something that's very important, being kind to ourselves, talking to ourselves in a kind way. If you had a friend in distress,

you probably would say, how can I support you? Tell me about it, whatever you need. But for whatever reason, it's harder to do that for yourself. It's easy to give a break to everybody else except for one person in the world you. John talked about how you used to think of therapy as something more like taking your car to get it fixed. You know, you're gonna drop off your mind and they'll fix it up for you,

and you drive away. But it was only when he felt his ass was getting kicked by depression and anxiety that he's said, I need to actually work harder at this. I need to be an active participant in my recovery. For John, he feels like anxiety and depression don't necessarily have, as he puts it, strong solo careers. They're usually a pair. Sometimes we do want to figure out, okay, is the anxiety leading to depression? Is the depression leading to anxiety.

But to John it can feel like a parlor game at some point, because if they're both there, then they both need to be dealt with. All that a disorder means is that it's interfering with living your life the way you want to live it. So if you're obsessive compulsiveness is making you late for work, then there you go. Obsessive compulsive disorder. Really nothing more mystical than that. There

isn't a particular chemical threshold you need to reach. It's just that if something is messing things up for you, it's a disorder. Nazis are bad guys. I think we knew that, but I just wanted to reiterate. Nazis are bad guys, and of course helping other people can help us help ourselves. Again, thank you for listening to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I am Jen Kirkman. You can follow me on Instagram at jen Kirkman. I'm on TikTok same thing at Jen Kirkman. I put up little audio

grams of the podcast on both of those sites. Thin you can follow me on Twitter too, But I don't know. I feel like an on an anxiety podcast. I feel like the last website I should recommend this Twitter for me personally, that site makes me anxious. That's a whole other story for a whole other episode. Have a great week, and just remember, yes, anxiety bites, but you're in control.

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