Big Feelings & Burnout

feelings in any given moment. It's the book is a lot about burnout work burnout, which is obviously a certain kind of anxiety as well. But I appreciate that the overall tone is thinking about it in terms of feelings, right, because what's underneath a lot of anxiety is feelings. You know,

we are a perfect mix. If you've learned anything from last week's episode, Joseph Lead neuroscientists that yes, we are a batch of chemicals and memories and reactions, but we have emotions and we have human feelings, and everybody may experience the same symptoms of anxiety, sweaty palms, rapid heartbeat, panic attacks, whatnot. There's this universal symptoms of anxiety and panic.

But we are each unique creatures with our specific feelings in any given moment, and a lot of times are feelings inform how severe our anxiety is around a certain situation, and a lot of times it's important to get under the hood and figure out what we're really feeling. You know, it's incredible that we have such simple and easy solutions to lower our heart rate and to pass through panic.

As doctor clear Weeks once said, but let's not discount that we are humans with feelings, and if we can look at our feelings, we can decrease our anxiety, and we can also just feel better. I mean, forget the pressure of have I decreased my anxiety? We can just understand ourselves better, which helps us make decisions, which helps us become who we are looking to become. And although the book Big Feelings covers many topics and does so

really expertly, I highly recommend this book. I wanted to really zero in on one or two chapters, and the ones that we talked about are uncertain t and how do we actually practice sitting with our uncertainty? You know what does that mean? Because every episode. I mean, in the first episode of this podcast, Dr jud Brewer said the only thing that's certain in life is that there is uncertainty. And that's true, and that's great and that's smart.

But I had other things to talk to him about, so we didn't drill down into it, and now is the time to answer, Okay, I get it. I'm willing to sit with uncertainty. I accept that life is uncertain. I know I can't control a lot of life. But what do you mean sit with the uncertainty? Am I supposed to literally sit on my bed or something? And yeah, I mean, that is one thing you can do, but there's more to it. It's just about stopping for a minute and asking yourself some questions so you can figure

out what's going on underneath in that moment. And it doesn't have to be this deep dive into your childhood and you don't have to be a therapist to do it, and you don't need a therapist to do that with you in the moment. It's it's a very intimate solo exercise that you can do. And if you don't like uncertainty, even though you accept it and you are very much aware that there's no getting up, there's no getting through

life without it being full of uncertainty. There's some really interesting ways to look at it, because the science and the data back up that people hate uncertainty so much that they would rather know for sure that something bad is going to happen tomorrow. If presented with the option, something bad can happen tomorrow and you can know about it.

Or I could tell you that you have a fifty percent chance of something bad happening tomorrow, which means you also have a fifty percent chance of nothing bad happening tomorrow, So you can have that knowing that something bad or nothing bad or yes, definitely something bad. I'll tell you what it is and when. Most people would choose yeah, just yeah, give me this something bad and tell me when and what instead of taking the risk and then

maybe nothing that will happen. And within the uncertainty, there's also not just the uncertainty of if I walk outside, will a piano fall on my head? But when we do make a plan, I mean we obviously have to make a plan at times. You know, we have to schedule things. If you have a job, you have to create whatever it is you create at your job, you

have to raise a child. Whatever you're doing, there has to be intention and planning behind it, but then there has to be accounting for mistakes and uncertainty and just things going wrong. And in the book, Liz talks about how even scientists that NASA say that they make plans, but they think of agendas as plans from which we deviate.

So when you make a plan, learning to be flexible, like included in that plan is the flexibility of if it deviates from your plan, And that is how to set yourself up for having less anxiety when something deviates because you took the uncertainty out of it. You were certain that there was uncertainty in your plan. And then we talk about work burnout, something very near and dear to my heart, and Liz explains that you cannot cure work burnout with a you know, a weekend away and

then go right back into what's burning you out. It really takes kind of sitting and assessing what you want out of life and are you the person that you aspire to be in your head or are you living your values? If you're saying, you know, money is not important to me, I don't want to chase something because I don't really care about my legacy or I don't care about being the most productive worker and winning the award or for best attendance or whatever. You know, then

are you living according to that? Are you saying I'm someone who wants to spend more time with family and friends and get it out in nature more, or sleep more, read more, or just have more free time? Are you actually doing that? And and how much of that is again within your control? So, and with burnout, it's something that most people don't know they are experiencing until they hit that wall to where you know, you might end

up sick in the hospital. You might end up just saying I can't do this anymore, you know, leaving a job. Who knows how burnout could affect you, but most people don't address it until it's like at the breaking point. And there are signs of burnout along the way that seem kind of normal, like they don't seem like burnout signs.

One of them is called revenge bedtime procrastination, which is when you go to bed and you want to sleep and you love sleeping and you can sleep, you don't have insomnia, but you have felt so just like you have no control over your schedule. Everyone wants something from you. You You didn't. You didn't get a minute to yourself except maybe when you went to Pete. You didn't get a minute to yourself that day, And damn it, you're

gonna get that time. Now. You're gonna go to bed and you're gonna scroll your phone and look at the internet or play a game or whatever, even though you desperately need sleep, and this will cut into your sleep, which will set you up for being exhausted the next day. Hence you're on the road to burn out. But it is the only way you can think to get time

for yourself. Even if, again, if you were to schedule and plan your life and dream big, you wouldn't say the best way I can spend time with myself is playing a game on my phone two in the morning, you know. So it's things like that that have become so normalized that are actually signs of burnout. So we talked about that as well. So let's just get into it so you can actually here the genius of my guest, Liz fosse Len, who ill tell you a little bit

about right now. Liz is the co author and illustrator of the national bestseller Big Feelings, which again she co authored with Molly west Duffy. Liz is an expert on how to make work better. She's the head of Content and Communications at WHUMO. She helps teams and leaders develop the skills and habits that allow them to unlock their full potential. She regularly leads interactive, scientifically backed workshops about how to build resilience, help remote workers avoid burnout, and

effectively harness emotion as a leader. And again, you can find more information about Liz in the show notes. And I hope that you enjoy this conversation. I'm going to be um awkwardly reading to you from your book that you wrote with Molly west Duffy, Big Feelings, How to Be Okay when Things are not Okay. And I wanted to start with one of the chapters in your book,

which is Uncertainty. And I you know, obviously uncertainty has come up on this podcast before and one of my guests, I think my first guest, Dr Judge Brewer, said the only thing we can be certain of is that there is uncertainty. But something about reading this in your book made me realize we need to go over this again, because as you wrote, UM, myths about uncertainty, you say

myth number one, certainty is attainable. And so I think, even though people have heard a million times that the only thing certain about life is that it's uncertain, I still do think there's something in our heads that goes well. No, I think we can I think we can get a lot of certainty. I think we can try to get

some more. And so can you give you had said that, um, Behavioral scientists have shown that we're overly optimistic about the things we want to happen, but we tend to overlook longer term shifts, and we overemphasize the importance of new information that fits into our existing beliefs. So that's kind of a mouthful. Can you kind of give me an example and game that out for me? What what that is? What?

What does our brain actually do to think we have certainty? Yeah, so there's additional research, I mean, all kinds of studies that show that humans hate uncertainty, Like we would rather know for sure that something bad is going to happen tomorrow then have a fifty chance of that's something bad happening, because in the former we can plan for it, and it just it feels like we still have some semblance

of control. So because we have this deep aversion to uncertainty, our brains play all kinds of tricks on us to make us feel like we can predict the future. We're somehow different than everybody else on the planet. And so one is like if you, let's say you decide you want to go on an international trip and the hotel you were kind of looking at suddenly has a sale on hotel rooms, You're going to see that It's like, this is the sign. This is like I should go

on this. This is confirmation by us essentially, But if the flight tickets go up, you're just not going to read that heavily into that. Um. And so that's an example M again just try like picking certain information to support what we kind of already want to happen or

want to believe about the future. UM. You know. That's also I see this a lot recently with economic uncertainty, where people if they really believe, let's say the housing market is going to go down and I think no one quite knows it's going to happen, yet, they'll see like one house on the market that's been on the market longer than normal and take that as like, this is the indicator that I'm right, And then if a house cells really quickly, they'll be like if that's that's

just a blip. Um. So there's lots of examples of this, but very common bias that we're susceptible too. And so the danger in this because I know someone could say, well, that's great, you've got a great attitude. You know, the flights are going down, and so you your dream trip, and you don't you don't notice the negative that the hotels are are going up or not on sale. I could see someone saying that life, what's wrong with that?

You're seeing the positive? But I think the bigger picture is probably that if something doesn't work out right, there's like this extra disappointment because you were approaching it from a place of certainty and like maybe mild vagueness in some ways. Is that with the dangerous Is that like then that could lead to I don't know whatever, beating yourself up or anxiety or something. Yeah. Absolutely, when we overestimate how much control we have over the future, or

have too high expectations, you're absolutely right. Then when something doesn't work out we kind of put it on ourselves. We beat ourselves up for it. We think it's our faults somehow. Um. And it's also it prevents us from making rational decisions. Right if you write, if the flights go up too much, maybe you shouldn't take the trip

right now, like there's a lot of stuff that. Um. You know, it prevents us also from just being flexible as things change, right, And yeah, I we remember when I had a fear of flying, I would look for any little sign I could, depending on what I was looking for that day. Sometimes I wanted confirmation that I should not take this play because it was dangerous. Sometimes I wanted reassurance that it would be okay. But I

could read into anything. And it's like if I looked at a flight one day and it went up the next day, instead of learning, oh, well, you looked on on Monday and that's when flight prices go up. You know, I would think, oh my god, I can't afford this, so I'm not going to go, and I just saved my life, you know. I would look at it that way, and it's like none of that is happening. And at the very least, even though I guess no harm is coming to me. By doing that, I'm really training my

brain to believe every thought I have. Totally. It's funny as you bring that up. I also sometimes get nervous about flying, and it reminds me when Molly and I were interviewing people as we were writing this book about uncertainty, many people said that what helped them move forward was asking themselves like, what's the worst thing that could happen? And then they would say, you know, the worst thing wasn't actually that bad, and then it it just helped

me feel more calm. That has never worked for me because I'm a catastrophizer, So for me, the worst thing that could happen is like catastrophically bad. It's not just like a little thing. It's like I will come up with a dark, dark scenario that is terrifying, and I will not move forward. So what I've found helpful is also to ask like, what is the likelihood of this worst case scenario? And usually it's infinitesimally small. Um. So I just for anyone out there who has gotten the

advice what's the worst that could happen? It might not work for you. And if you do find yourself obsessing over a horrible worst case scenario. You can pull it back a little bit by saying, how, like, what is the actual probability that this is going to happen? It's probably far and away not the most likely outcome. That's really smart advice. And yeah, because when someone would say that to me, what's the worst that could happen? I'm thinking, do you think I'm an amateur at this? I've already

gained out the worst that could happen. That's why I'm nervous about booking this flight or you know, taking this road trip. I mean, you can't out catastrophize a catastrophizer, and that doesn't always help. I mean, you know, I've done exercises where I do just um let myself actually really feel with that all might feel like and it does bring it around too well. I ultimately have no control. But I think that the example you gave is the likelihood is a great example of if the other one

doesn't work for people. And I think this brings me to your other myth that you say about uncertainty is that anxiety accurately reflects risk. So is that sort of what you're talking about, that there's a mismatch between house stressed we feel about something and the likelihood that will happen. Yes, exactly, so when we it's normal to feel anxiety in the

face of uncertainty. But it's really easy for us to lean into that and and I believe that it's our intuition rather than just like a bunch of scrambled noise um. And that's it's hard to figure out, you know, what is actually my gut instinct, what is just my anxiety speaking. But one research study that I found really fascinating was

there were researchers. They split people randomly into two groups, and then one group had a chance of getting harmless but painful electric shock, and the other group had a fifty percent chance. And then the researchers said to each group, like, how much are you willing to pay not to get this shock? And so you would think that the group that had a lower percentage chance would pay less, because that just sort of rational. We are not rational creatures.

So the two groups paid exactly the same, and so again goes to show them how we per how afraid we feel like we're actually more anxious often when things are uncertain than when they're sure. And so even it could be that actually, like the fact that you're so nervous about what might happen tomorrow just means that there's

a small chance something bad will happen. But that's so stressful that that's generating more anxiety in you than knowing like tomorrow I'm going to have this like dentist appointment that I'm really dreading. You might dread it, but you might not be as anxious. Um So I think just important to keep that in mind and not just let yourself like lean into this anxiety and see it as this means for sure that something terrible is going to happen. But I think that is tough for anxious people to

be told, you know, go with your gut feeling. It's like, I don't know my gut. I've never had an organic gut feeling. I've only had these a weird paranoid And even people can do it in the positive sense, you know. You see it all the time when people eat someone they like and as having a really good feeling about this person and then it ends up like this a horrible relationship or doesn't work out. They goes to the

person or whatever. But it's like Feelings aren't facts, and it's okay to have them, but I feel like it's all about just keeping them in their place, not believing them and going down that rabbit hole. Yeah, I love, feelings aren't facts. I think it really is about sitting

with it, even though it's so uncomfortable. Like I think often we just leap to the assumption that what we're feeling is a fact, because it's actually more uncomfortable to sit with it and try to understand it and just breathe through it than to be like, Okay, I feel this,

I'm going to take action. Like that feels better in the moment because we can run from the emotion when actually what's most productive is for us to just have that really uncomfortable five minutes that actually, long term is better for us because we've better understand what's going on within ourselves. Yeah, our brains really want to do the opposite, because if something if I'm having a terrible feeling about

something and it's not a fact, technically, that's amazing. I'm so glad, you know, um in general that I'm not right about this thing. But in the moment, even if it's something terrible, I think is going to happen. I can't give up being right about it because I think I'm protecting myself. And it wasn't until I learned really how to feel feeling. And again I always thought I was someone who did feel feelings. I can't cry easily. I feel all the normal feelings that people feel at

the right times at funerals and weddings and holidays. But when I'm anxious, I have to realize there's a feeling underneath there, and if I can sit with it right, I always want to take action get rid of the anxiety or get rid of the thing that I think is causing the anxiety. And often there's that feeling underneath that's very human, and it's not one of the fun feelings that you feel at a wedding or appropriate feeling

at funeral. It's like, I don't know, self doubt, own or shame or something you know, And it's really hard to want to sit with it, even though I guess my point is it's really hard to want to sit with it even though it really takes it takes a lot less time to sit with it, right. Yeah, So I used to do. I was very similar. I would just like run from feelings because it felt productive. It felt like, oh, and I can do it all. This

is a motivational tool or whatever. Um, and so I would do something psychologists called anxious fixing, which you're sort of describing, which is you feel a lot of anxiety, and so you just start doing stuff. You vacuum the floor, you wash the dishes, you get through your inbox, you answer d ms on Twitter, whatever it might be, and so you it feels good in the moment to cross things off your to do list, and it kind of

distracts you from your anxiety. But usually at the end of the day, what's happened is that you haven't addressed the root causes of what's making you anxious. You have and sat with that emotion, and so now not only are you exhausted because you've been running around in a frenzy, but you also haven't made that anxiety go away. So it's sort of worse at the end of the day. Even though while you're frantically trying to get to in

box zero, it feels like you have control and everything's good. Um. So you know it's the next time you feel this urge. I say this to myself all the time. Like, yeah, we don't have to empty the dishwasher. We need to sit and understand where the anxiety has come from from. That's long term what's better for you. It's so hard, and I definitely am an anxious fixer. And I love it to do list and I love to see in

box go to zero. I love everything crossed off. But I know when I'm doing it in a way that like, none of this needs to be done today. And it's not just oh but I'm super productive. Why not? It's like something's under there. And if I managed to get all the two dues done by the time it's time to go to bed, I have that feeling. It's like an emotional like I ate too much ice cream feeling. I don't feel right. I might not feel anxious, like my palms are sweaty, but I just feel bad, just

the most descriptive I can think of. And it feels like, oh, maybe I should have meditated, or maybe I should have just journaled or sat there and been like what is this feeling? Sometimes it's really nothing and it's like what is this feeling? I don't know. I just feel crappy today, all right, you know. And sometimes it's a bigger thing, which is like, I'm afraid to do this projects what

if I fail? And then you know, and I really when I was reading the book and I saw the anxious fixing, I was like, oh, yeah, I do that, and I was like, I'm not willing to stop doing

Yeah for me too. And it's you know, it's it's not the it's not the worst, right, there's lots of far worse coping mechanisms um And I think even just getting to the point where you could be aware of it can be helpful because it's like, Okay, maybe I do need to get to inbox zero and I'm going to use this anxiety to fuel that, But then I really do need to come to it and explore it more.

I think it's easier for me to do because I live alone, But in the times when I didn't live alone, if I lived at the partner, had a roommate or whatever, it's very Actually, that kind of energy is very off putting to other people. You know, It's like they can feel what you're doing and it can get a little hectic and like you kind of end up ignoring the people in your life. So I feel like I can get away with it right now because I'm I'm living

alone and I don't have to answer to anybody. But when I would anxious fix with other people, like directly living with me, it really was a problem. And I didn't see it back then. I thought like, what, I'm getting things done and I think they could tell, but you don't have any bandwidth for me or for anything else. And so, you know, I feel like it's something that I don't know it can really affect everyone else in

our lives. Yeah, that resonates a lot. I think I even had the This was before I did all this research and when I was much more emotionally re asked. I even had the reaction of like, look at me, I'm so productive, Get on my level. What are you doing right? Why is everyone nailing it like this? Yeah, like oh my god, my my boyfriends are lazy or my friends are so late. Yeah, totally, it's like, okay,

you need to tell so we'll be right back. So when you talked about the anxious fixing, you know, we always say okay, sit with uncertainty, but like someone listening is going to be like, yeah, I keep hearing that, but what the hell do you mean? Do you mean, I literally sit on my bed and just sit there, like, can you give me some um examples of how to if you catch yourself anxious fixing and you go, Okay, I'm gonna explore what's really going on, Like what can people?

I know this sounds kind of productive, but do or not do? Yeah, so it might if some of it is being on your bed literally sitting with it. But then the next step it's not. It's not just sitting down and be like I'm anxious and then moving on. It's really starting to turn your anxiety into fears. So anxiety is this sort of instinctually nebulous, bad feeling we have in the face of uncertainty, and a fear is

tied to something specific. So fears are actually more useful in a way because they are again indicative of what we're actually afraid of happening, and therefore we can take action about it. So let's say I have a blood phobia,

like I hate getting my blood drawn. Um, I've actually been in like cognitive behavioral therapy for it, Like it's a very big deal for me, and so what's helped me is the day before I always have just like all this frantic energy, and so it's to sit down and say, like, what are the specific scenarios that I'm afraid of, And in that case, it's like kind of

just envisioning. Okay, I'm afraid of past thing out. I'm just afraid of, like that moment of walking into the hospital, I'm afraid of, you know, I'm going to stop there in case other people have the same book beyond just like I think it's just but it does help me feel a little more in control because it's it's like, Okay, I can do that. I've done this before, and in that case it is like, Okay, if I pass out, it's gonna be terrible. It's not fun, but it's also

not the end of the world. It has happened to be before I survived, Like they know how to handle it there Um and that it's again it's turning it into specifics and then starting to think through what you're going to do in those different scenarios how likely they are, and that usually helps me relax. Um. The other thing I'll say is it is really important to draw a boundary when you're doing this around what's within your control

and what's not. So for example, if I said I'm afraid if as I'm walking to the hospital that I'll get hit by a car. I can look around, you know, but like basically it's just like I'm not even gonna worry about this, and so I'm going to put this into this like beyond category of things that are beyond my control versus within is taking some deep breaths, you know,

reminding myself I've done this before. Um So it's sitting with it, whatever that might look like for you, turning it into specific fears, and then thinking through like which of these fears can I do something about and which are kind of just not even really worth my attention right now. Yeah, you see in the book it's separate the withins from the beyonds, And I want to get into that because I was really excited about that. It was something I hadn't heard before. But I want to

go back a little bit to the fears. I like the notion of if you're catching yourself doing anxious fixing, you kind of need to get in touch with what's really going on. I like the notion of thinking about sitting wherever you're going to sit and asking, you know,

what I'm afraid of right now? Because I feel like it's a little less psychobabble, a little less deep feelings, because some people for for them, they there's a whole bunch of symptoms of different anxiety disorders where people really do have trouble naming and feeling feeling of feeling that can be overwhelming, or sometimes we go too deep, Oh my god, did I have trauma that I don't remember? And like we're so worried at something big, And so if it is as simple as can I start with,

is there a fear going on? Then it's like, oh, yeah, I have to get my blood drawn tomorrow, or I'm procrastinating on a project. And then you can just take it from there instead of going, I don't know what it is, and I maybe I need like seven therapisiness. And and then what I like from there is you're not asking someone to think of the worst case. You're asking someone to just think of what you're afraid of,

which often isn't the worst case. It's just I don't like the sensation of the needle, or I don't like speaking in front of people or whatever. And I think even just knowing that TA makes that urge. We have

to cover it up. So, in other words, let's say someone has your fear of blood stuff, they're anxious fixing their vacuuming there, whatever, And if they sit and take a minute, label the fear, recognize it, and just make a little plan for themselves for the next day, maybe it takes away that urge to cover up the feelings. And if they weren't anxious fixing, and they hadn't covered up the feelings, like maybe they would do something else,

like have a few glasses of wine. Now they're hungover and dehydrated, it's going to make the blood work even worse. It's hard to drop blood when you're so they're just it just seems like it's a good stopper for doing kind of maladaptive things that aren't going to help. And so for some people it could be anxious fixing. For other people it could be like getting drunk, you know, or I don't know, they buy a pack of cigarettes, or they pick a fight with someone like it could

just be things that make more drama. And I feel like at the very least, like stopping and identifying a fear or something, at the very least, even if it doesn't stop your fear, it like stops you from taking actions that aren't that helpful, which then will create more drama, which then makes you more anxious. Yeah, exactly. And something you alluded to that I want to make explicit to is it doesn't get rid of it completely, but it

makes it far less likely that we judge ourselves. So in the case where it's like I have so much anxiety I need seven therapists, I think that's often where we layer on I'm this anxious, anxiety riddled person, who could ever love me? There's so much wrong with me? How have I not gotten over this? Versus if it's I'm afraid of getting my blood drawn. Yeah, maybe there's still some self judgment there, but basically like that seems reasonable, um,

and it's it's a lot. I think we do this so often when we have a stigmatized emotion like anxiety, like the like anger, where instead of just sitting with it and exploring it, we immediately jump to action, or we jump to I'm a horrible person for having this emotion in the first place, and then we jumped to really destructive action. Sometimes, truly, the best advice is just breathe through it, just and if it's not if you can't do ninety seconds, do five and then do five again,

and then do five again. And I think actually going through I've heard this from I live in San Francisco, so I have a lot of friends who have done like silent meditation treats and all that jazz um, And what a lot of them say is you can build the muscle of just living through something really uncomfortable, and once you've done it a couple of times, it actually really helps you deal with those bigger emotions, sometimes even painful emotions of just like this too will pass, even

if all I do is sit here, like I will get to a better place. And you talked about adopting them intra of I am a person who is learning blank instead of that, I can't believe I still have this. I can't you know, blah blah blah, blah blah blah. And I think that's a great I'm really into any kind of mantra or positive affirmation that isn't bullshit, you know, like I'm going to have this, which is adding more

pressure on the person, but it's just true. You know, I am a person who is learning how to feel my feelings more or get more comfortable whatever. I don't know, whatever it is, I just think that that's really a powerful thing. Yeah, it's been really helpful for me. I Yeah. I remember I lost my father in law to cancer about a year ago, and I could even at that time since in myself a couple of weeks later that I was like, I should just be feeling better. I should.

I had all these I should and instead of said like, I'm just learning to live of with the loss of someone that was a huge part of my life and that I've had a lot of excited hopes for in the future. Um, And that just allowed me to give myself some more grace. And that's something Molly and I say over and over in the book is I think so much self help centers around we'll fix you. Do this, you won't feel anxiety again. And that's a completely unrealistic expectation.

It's more about recovery and progress. Like I it's actually comforting to me to be like, I will never not be anxious. That's kind of I'm wired. But it's like that's fine. I don't have to listen to it as much. I'm learning to live with it. I've made a lot of progress and that should be celebrated, and it again, it's set some more reasonable expectation than why haven't I gotten rid of this? Well, you might never and that's also totally fine. Like some days you might just wake

up and you're sad for no reason. That's also okay. I have that too, um, but kind of accepting that and be like, I'm just a person who needs to learn how to live with a sad day once in a while. It's just I'm just like, okay, so I'm eating ice cream and watching Netflix, going for a walk tomorrow will be better. And that's such a healthier response.

And as you say in the book, you know you don't need all of the answers right now, and that was something that once I came to that, that's very comforting to me too, because if I'm sitting there thinking I need answers right now, then that's going to lead

to action. And you know, I've always been surprised when I sit and I don't know the answers to things, whether it's big life questions with you, that's usually what I don't know the answers to is is um, whatever answer I think I get, I get it when I need it. And it makes sense to me then, and if I get the answer too soon, it's probably the wrong answer. I don't know. There was just something. It's

it's in that same vein right of just acceptance. I guess it is really the big one word description of of all of that. Yeah, it's all. So what came up for me as you were speaking was I feel like so often people, my parents, people often ask like, well, what you know, what's what's your long term goal? Where do you want to be in five years? Where do you want to be in ten years? And that's putting all this weight on us to have answers to some

of these bigger questions. And so I've started to look back five ten years ago, and I would never have predicted where I am now, you know, like there's so much about it that was unforeseen that like, I don't even know what my plan was five years ago, but it probably wasn't what I'm doing now. And I feel pretty good with what I'm doing now. So I've started to push back against it and be like, I don't have a five year plan. I have something. I know what my values are, I know what I enjoy doing.

I have a rough idea of where I want would be in a year, but I don't care about the five year plan. The world is going to change so much. I'm not going to answer that question. I'd love to hear more about that, because I know, you know, when people hear ritual it sounds like, oh God, like I don't have any more time, I can't add another thing to my schedule, like it sounds like, especially with an anxious brain reading a book, going, I can't do that.

You know, it's like, what do you mean, now, I've got to meditate for an hour every morning? And it's like we probably are already doing rituals that we don't even think of as as rituals, Like, are there examples of of what a ritual is that helps reduce our stress levels? Yeah? So yeah, so research shows that rituals are really helpful also even if you don't believe in them.

So they forced people who are like I am very skeptical of this to do the same thing every day at the same time, and it still made them feel better and they started to look forward to it. So, yeah, exactly what you said. It's not adding more expectations to yourself. It's not now you have to start running five miles every morning. It can be I'm just gonna have a cup of coffee when I wake up, and I'm wake up at very different times, but just like making myself

this cup of coffee as the ritual. Um. It can be something around taking your makeup off, getting into bed, reading a book like actually very soothing short things. Um, even just getting up from your desk and having lunch somewhere. Personally, I've had the same breakfast for probably seven years, and I'm a little bit of a maniac around it. So I like, probably too rigid about it, but for me, it's just helpful. It's very easy to put together. It

doesn't require a lot of cooking. I wake up at different times on the weekend and during the week and when I travel. It's just it's this grounding thing of even when everything else is up in the air, this is this small routine that always I look forward to that kind of helps me recenter. Um. So I would just encourage people exactly what you said, look at what you're already doing and then don't. It's not if you have a day where you don't do it, it's not

the end of the world. It doesn't need to be this big, massive life change, it really should be something that feels good to you, and most likely that's going to be something you're already doing. And yeah, it's funny you mentioned that it doesn't have to be at a specific time, because when I was reading your book, I thought, oh, yeah, there's already rituals I do every day. And then I my next thought was, but I'm not doing it right because it's at all different times. So you know, some mornings,

I might wake up at six. Some mornings, I might wake up at nine. Some nights I go to bed at tens, and nights I go to bed at doing the morning. And just hearing you say right now, it doesn't matter what time it is. I do the same thing every day when I wake up, and I do the same thing every night before I go to bed. And that's great. I mean, I think that's more consistency

than probably most people. You know. Um, And but I was a little bit beating myself up because I'm I know, I just want to be one of those people that goes to bed at this time and wakes up at this time. But it's not always possible. Depending on what you're doing on certain days, or you know anything, how you fee you all. And but there's this um I can get kind of I think it's perfectionist about a ritual.

I remember, you know Steve Jobs, where was the same He's got seven black turtlenecks, and a lot of people live that way. They just have one outfit they wear, and I'm always like, that's the ultimate way to live. And it's like, well, maybe it is if those people want to, but I clearly don't want to because I'm not doing that. But there's always this like I'm doing it wrong. So it's good to hear that there's no

rules except the rule of do the same thing. Yeah, you're ritual might be pick a fun outfit every day, you know, very different. But still I had this where I recently got on TikTok and I'm now just constantly on TikTok and there's so many like hot girl rituals of making avocado toast in the morning, and I don't like avocado toast. I'm just gonna put it out there.

So that's an example of like there's all this it's kind of social pressure from social media, like this is the ritual of a woman who has it all and like looks great and have a cool life, but the fundamental fact is like I don't enjoy that, and so it would actually be really bad for me to make that my ritual. So again it's just casting all out aside and looking into yourself and say, like, what actually is comforting to me. There's a magazine I think it's

I think it's Harper's Bizarre or just Bizarre. Um. It

used to be my favorite part of every issue. They ask a very successful person what their daily schedule is, and it's always like, I'm an Italian shoe designer, you know, and it's this fabulous lifeel like I get up at six thirty and I make a cappuccino and then I stretch with my personal trainer, and then I take a walk, and then I check my email at nine, and then then it's like then I make a big lunch and it's two hours long and there's wine, and it just

sounds like a great day. But it's very regimented at the same time, and they always get like no sleep, Like then I could have been at midnight and I can't think six, you know, And I'm Whenever I read those, I get so convinced that this person really lives this way and that I'm failing at not And I'm like, I know, if I showed up at your villa, you're not. There's no way you go make a cappuccino and don't check your email. I just don't believe you. Maybe you

did that once. Maybe you're talking about your goal, but like, come on, like, nobody's perfect, and if they are, that's great. Like I celebrate that perfect person that I read about, But um, I'm going to achieve that for sure. Your assistant told you it's lunchtime. Your chef has made you lunch. You know, It's like, yeah, I don't have an assistant. I don't have a chef. My life looks different. I'm

gonna get a hot pocket. We'll continue the interview on the flip side of a quick message from our sponsors getting back to you at the brilliant separating them withins from the beyonds As you talked about, the next part of that, you say is when we talk about the within, so things that are within our control. The caveat to that is make a plan from which you'll deviate. And you say that a NASA scientist or doctor told you that the teams. They are refer to agendas as quote

plans from which we deviate. So even if NASA can reroute, I think we can in our daily lives. So I love that. It's like, one of my favorite expressions is get out of result. Is there an example of a way to know what is within your control and then be ready for the possible deviation. Yeah, So I think even just kind of already setting out with this idea of a plan from which I'll deviate opens you up

to learning along the way to being flexible. So many example of let's say you're looking for a new job, you might map out here are kind of two to three specific things I can do, and then a reasonable time frame is the next two weeks. And so the plan from which I'll deviate is I'll send out ten resumes. I'll reach out to five people in my network, and I will send out an email or make a post on LinkedIn or whatever it might be wherever you're looking

for a job. Um, and then from there it's like, okay, if I get interviews, here's how I'll prepare. But it's still being open to while it could be that one of my friends has this crazy opening at their company. That's amazing. Um. And so it's like I'm going to prepare for the traditional interview, but I'm also going to be ready to deviate from that if there's something unexpected that comes up, or it could be that something in my life changes that makes me want to stay where

I am right now. UM. So it just it helps you unhook from the sense of I need to control every step of the path and if something else comes up, it's very disruptive as opposed to potentially really cool opportunity that you just haven't thought about. That's why I found it really helpful too. I love what you're saying about,

like get out of results. Um. And I would add to that too, just it's it's more useful to be clear on what you enjoy and what you value and what you're sort of big picture goals are Like maybe your big picture goal is money, or it's free time, or it's just freedom to do whatever you want, because that's a much more flexible thing to work with. Then I need to be a lawyer. Um, there's so many different kinds of lawyers, Like do you actually want to

be a lawyer? That could change, but most likely if you have this fundamental like I just I really like to control my time. Then that's a better way to take this new opportunity and say, like, will this allow me to continue living on the schedule that I really enjoy or is it suddenly gonna make me wake up at six am every morning? It's just a better decision

making framework. It's really I feel, at the end of the day, all work with feelings, emotions, anxieties is like, the more you know yourself and can design a life that makes you as comfortable as possible, there's no right or wrong. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, um and and yeah, and that takes a lot of courage. It's not easy. Um. So I'm a proud introvert. And so what I've found actually really is valuable to me is having one weekend day where I have no plans, where it's like I'm

just going to read a book. I'm going to not see anyone, and I've made that a rule. I've also found that people take rules less personally than just a no. So now my friends all know, like this is Lez's weird Saturday rule. And it was that very uncomfortable to say that at first, to be like I would love to have dinner with you. But I have this rule where on Saturdays I just need downtime to see nobody

and do nothing. Um, but it's become much more easy, and then it actually allows me to show up the next time I see them and be a way better friend because I'm not like this was supposed to be my Saturday where I was lying in bed, you know, like why am I here? I'm not like dragging myself to these events anymore. It's like, oh, this is fun, and I know that I have a day to myself coming up to I love that, and it brings us

into burnout, which I wanted to talk about. I have the same thing where right now I'm in a burnout. I'm I'm on my way out of it. There's a there's a light at the end of the tunnel. But I just happened to have a billion jobs at once, and none of them were negotiable, and it it was like one job was supposed to start January and it didn't start to October, which is when another one was starting, and like, I just had to do both, and I

wanted to do both. I suppose I could have just blown one up and been like no, but I knew I could get it all done, but it was a seventy hour work week I couldn't. So I would do this kind of people pleasing thing. If a friend asked me to hang out, I'd be like, well, I don't have a plan for Saturday, but it would be my one day free because I would work about six days a week. And at one point I just had to say to a few friends of mine, I felt like unless I had like a thing I had to do

that I could tell them about that. I couldn't say I need me time because I think I didn't want to hear it. In other words from them, you work too much and then you're alone on this one day. It's like, I know, but when I'm overworked, that's what I need. Like going out with people seems like work. So I'm so sorry. You might not see me for a couple of months, you know, or you might if we I'm into spontaneity weirdly, but that one day I really need and it was it was hard to to do. Ultimately,

everybody was fine. It does bring up a lot of unsolicited advice I wasn't asking for, but um, you know, I think that's really great because I cannot function if I'm just go, go, go, go go. I do need a lot of down time that isn't oh I'm at home. Maybe I'll just putter around and do some work like update my website or whatever. It's like, no, no, no no,

I need to read a book. If I don't do that, I will hit a like mini burnout, and I will cancel everything and I will hide, which feels stressful because people are wondering where I am and I'm not communicating, and I'll binge like you know, stranger things for three days, and so I have to balance that kind of like I can lay on the couch and binge, but it feels better if people know about it. Then if I'm

like hiding from the world because I'm so overwhelmed. That was just a long monologue, not a question, but no,

that resonates a lot. It reminds me of this, and I think, yeah, like every I think we often we just feel all this pressure, especially if you're people pleaser to say yes, and then we forget about when you say yes to one thing, you're saying no to something else, and we often just don't see it that way, and so starting to be like Okay, if I say yes to taking my Saturday and you know, going on a bar crawl or you know, running to the beach, running

to this and running whatever it is, you're saying no to feeling good on Sunday, You're saying no to checking in with your friends for the whole next week because you're going to be exhausted. And so I think actually starting to get clear on like what's the no within this yes can help you make a better decision and be like, actually, I don't want to say no to these things, so I'm going to say no to the first one. Um. And I think we often don't do that.

It's just like, oh I feel those pressure, Okay, I'll say yes, and then we actually end up in a way worse spot than if we had just been up front, like you said, I'm just communicated and said like, hey, i'm you know, I'm really working hard. Here's what's going on with my projects. I'm excited about them. It's probably gonna be like this for a month or two, but like,

let's definitely grab dinner when things settled down. Like that's totally fair, absolutely, And you reminded me of you know, during the pandemic like the I mean, it's still going on, but like I mean, the first few months, I was very burned out. And in the book, um, I think it was Molly that wrote the essay about flying all the time and seeing everyone in first class that you know they were there and able to afford those tickets because they flew so much, they had miles. And that

was the story of my life. And I never enjoyed first class. I just sat there typing and doing another project, on the way to another project, and I was starting to burn out. And I remember saying to someone, and I swear this is way before this is like probably three weeks before, however, COVID manifested in that wet market,

Like before that happened. I said to someone, I for my schedules already said I'm on this tour and I don't want to do it, and I need I don't need a vacation, I need for one year of the world to stop. I literally said that, Um I did this, I forgot to tell it. When to stop, I said, a year. But but I mean, I really I was lucky because I got some other work. I could work from home and it made no difference but um, I

needed to stop this touring life. I didn't want to do anymore, and I didn't want to do fifty things at once. And I got to the point where I said, I need time off. And there's always something right, like you're doing my podcast right now, Like someone wants you to do their podcast, someone wants you to whatever whatever. Talk to their friend's son for a minute about I don't know the cologe you went to or your book you wrote. And yes, each individual thing is ten minutes

or an hour, and yes, do I have an hour? Yes, But if I say but if I make it a rule that like, for the next three months while we're in lockdown, I am not doing podcasts. I'm not doing your son wants to pick my brain about comedy, nothing everyone gets known. Then it's easier because what tends to happen is I make an exception when I can do this, and then I keep doing it. And then I look at my calendar and every day has like three quote

interruptions in it that I don't need to do. It's not making me any money, it's not furthering me in any way. They're just favors, which is fine. Every once in a while to do them, but I was just so burned out that even an hour of giving my time I couldn't do it. I was And that was like tough, because, like you say in your book, burnout

is not obvious. So other people like when you mean you're burnt out, and it seems like you're being rude, but it's I never want to get to that place again where I have to completely shut down and I'm glad that there's a global pandemic for a year. I mean, that's not a normal way to live, where it's like balls to the wall and then oh good, we're locked in our owns, Like that's not that's not good. Yeah.

I mean I've heard this from so many people who, yeah, obviously the pandemic was hugely challenging for infinite number of reasons. But people kind of saying like there was the silver lining, which was just getting to breathe for a second, and suddenly you didn't have to say yes to everything, um, because we couldn't be in a room with other people. Um. And So I think one thing you're bringing up that is that I try to keep in mind too, is we is just remembering that, like your health is the

foundation for everything else you want to do. And so again we often we just say yes. We say yes. We say yes because we feel like we should or we don't want to be rude. But it's actually like, if you want to make an impact on the world, if you actually want to help other people, you really do have to take care of yourself first. So on an extreme level, it's easy to see this if you're like so sick, you're in the hospital, you can't take

on any work. But then we were just not able to see the less extreme but equally important version, which is like, well, yeah, but if you're run down, if you're exhausted, if you're not sleeping, you're also not really showing up in the way you want to um, and so it's it's real. Yeah, it's I used to do this thing where I would I would try to set boundaries by punting stuff into the future, so I'd be like, Okay, I can't do it this month, but I can it

next month, and that funds really good. But then I would get to the next month and be like, oh my god, what is going on this month? Because it was just like a complete mess. My calendar was a disaster zone. It's like throwing something in your closet to put away later, and when doing you open it and just like avalanches on you. Yeah, exactly. And so now I've started to be like, don't commit to this in

two months. Just be like I just can't take this on right now or like or like you said, you know, like that, I just have a lot going on, and so I'm sort of saying no, of blanket no to these kinds of things. Um, but yeah, I just also want to encourage people. Don't do the like I'll do it next month, I'll do it in two months, because that month is you're going to run yourself into the ground. Anxiety bites will be right back after a quick little

message from one of our sponsors. One thing I've also seen, and I don't know how many people this applies to, but I reached out to someone once just asking them like, yeah, like I would love advice on this thing, and they had actually put together a short pdf, just being like, here are some resources, because I get asked this question kind of frequently, and so they said, I don't have time to meet with everyone, but here's a pdf that other people have told me as helpful, and so it

was this really nice way of you obviously genious, it's so smart. Um. And so I think if there is something that you get asked frequently, that's a nice way of still offering help. But you're not, you know, dedicating an hour of your time every three days to this conversation. It's like that thing on your text when UM isn't I think there's a thing you can set on your text that's just like be right there, you know, or something so like yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like it's like

the bigger version of that. Well, it's interesting that because and I know you have to go, I'll let you go, like I minutes even give me fun worth. But I feel like, um, culturally it's really hard because everyone else, even if it's not like a high powered CEO, even it's just someone with like a regular old job where you know, there's a million other jobs like it, but they're just busy. They've got their thing, they've got their kids,

they've got their job that I don't know whatever. I feel like everyone is in a burnout, not just like the highest powered CEO or real estate agent or whatever. And so I I found like, unless I'm in the hospital, there is not a lot of sometimes, um, I don't know, it's not compassion or but there's there's been a lot of um oh, you take such good care of yourself, Like I'm doing something extra by saying, hey, you know, I got in last night late from you know, my tour.

My plane landed at one, I went to bed at three, So I think getting brunch at noon, I think it's just gonna be. I think I need to sleep and just you know, not have mimosas. It's like, wow, you're a real health not and it's like, no, that should not be considered like a health night, you know. And I've the most regiment that I've ever been. And that's why in one way I miss touring is I had my routines, you know, get there, do a little work out at the hotel, have a five o'clock dinner, shower,

do the shows, go to bed, repeat. I didn't do any extra it and go out after because I'd have to take care of my voice. And also, like even free pandemic, you know, you can get a cold from someone, um if you go out and or close talking in a bar and it's midnight, and I just I mean also just never was tempted to go out that lad. I was always tired, but people would say, wow, you're a hypochondriac. I'm like, it's it's not a hypochondria to

say I use my voice for a living. If there's no show, there's no money, I cannot lose my voice. So I'm not gonna go screaming in a bar tonight. But there there is this like, if you take the littlest care of yourself I have had, it's not pushedback, but comments, and it sometimes admire ring, you know, but like wow, what great. I'm like, this is not where we should be as a society. That should not be

considered like extreme self care, you know. So I think it's really hard because we're all in the cycle of everyone else is doing the burnout thing and we look like kind of like princess e divas, and that's for all genders. If we set boundaries, it's hard, Yeah, totally. It's also it's not just the comments. It's what we're rewarded for in society. So you're going to be rewarded for doing a ton of shows and having an interview

and being featured in this and that. No one's going to reward you for a setting Saturday aside two binge watch Netflix, right, Like right, there's no one's clapping for you, no one's thumbs up in that accomplishment on Twitter or whatever it is. Um So I think it does come back to, yeah, just having essentially the courage to say, this is my reward to myself. This is like what

I need to do, and it's in. You also brought up the being on tour, you had this set routine, and I've heard from so many people over and over again like this sounds bad, but the thought of getting a little sick, or the thought of having my internet go down, or that it's like these mini pandemics. You know, it's like it would be such a relief because I could finally take a breather. Um And so that, yeah, that's a horrible place to be in. Like you should

never see your vacation as a recovery. You should never see getting sick as like a much needed break. You know, that's not a brand, that's your body shutting down. Um And so I think the more you can internalize that and really remind yourself this is just like whatever anyone says, it doesn't matter if I get likes for this. This is actually what I need to do to show up for the things that are important to me, that I

need to pay the bills, that kind of thing. And Yeah, as you see in the book, burnout isn't obvious, So no one's going to come up to you go, oh my god, you need a break. Like It's right. It's the final moment of burnout where you're like, Okay, I'm shutting the world down. I'm collapsing him in the hospital. Sure, that's obvious, but all the moments, the many things that are creating the burnout that's going to come, that's never obvious, right,

like to ourselves, even I guess as well. Yeah. One thing that it's been funny because I've done a lot of like talks and workshops around the book with Molly, and one thing that really seems to resonate with people is when we say, watch out for the early signs of burnout. So one of them is this thing called revenge bedtime procrastination. Yes, yes, And it's like, yeah, you it's this thing where it's not obvious, but the moment someone articulates that, you're like, oh my god, that's what

I've been doing. So it's you have a really busy day, you don't have time for yourself, you get into bed at all, then whatever, Um, and you should go to sleep because you're exhausted and your body is asleep, and maybe you have an early wake up time, and instead you get on TikTok, you start checking your email, you're reading articles, you're on Twitter, whatever it might be. And so it's this, it's basically your self sabotaging and you're getting into a cycle where now you're even more tired

the next day. And then it builds and builds and builds. And what that is a signal of is that you just have not had time for yourself during the day. So this is you trying to claw back some sense of control, some sense of me time. Um. And it is like, yeah, when when we talk about this, we like that I do that. So and so there are these smaller signals of burnout that we're just not aware of. No one has told us this is a sign that

you need to build more breaks into your day. Um. It's so yeah, I think there's just we're a society that rewards business and under educates people about these early signs of like you are not living a sustainable life. And lastly, I love what you said. Your friend Navid created a Google document titled who am I, and he wrote what his values are and you can expand on it, but it basically he looked at it was like, I'm

not doing any of this. Yeah, yeah, so he had gotten He also now it's interesting, he's a coach who helps other people who have gone through burnout. So and this it's sort of based on this experience he had. We worked really hard for this promotion and got promoted and felt terrible and it just wasn't this huge milestone accomplishment he had expected it to be. So he made the schoogle doc and then set aside the job career expectations and wrote out things he knew that made him

feel good, that brought him lightness. Um and I can't remember exactly it was on those, but things like I invest in others, I take care of my health by exercise, I have hobbies I enjoy. And then he went through the list and highlighted the ones that he was actually practicing, and he was there was almost nothing on the list that was he was actually doing. And so that's when he realized that this promotion. Again, it was it was

just not aligned with his values at all. And so then he started to think, like, what is a career that would be better aligned with these things? And now he makes it a regular practice to go into this document and just do a quick check in of you know it to be like more than fifty of the things are true in this moment, like I am taking care of myself, I am prioritizing my friends, um. And

he says that that is for him. The best way to check in on has he built a sustainable life for himself or is he kind of veering off of his values and getting too influenced by outside pressures that aren't actually helping him achieve what he wants to achieve. Is there any big, big ticket item of inspiration that you don't want to leave anybody? I would just say, you know, giving yourself grace along the way. Some of these things might not work for you, some might work great.

There's not a one size fits all. And again the goal shouldn't be I'm going to never feel anxiety and never be exhausted. That's just you sign up for life. You're gonna be tired, You're gonna be anxious, right, it's more about just coping with it and having better responses. So you've been moved through it more quickly. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Liz fossil Ling, and these are the takeaways for this episode. Again, you can find the takeaways on my website Jen Kirkman dot com and

then click anxiety Bites. As always, the link is in the show notes, which are located on whatever podcast app you're listening to this one. So the big takeaways from my talk with Liz vos Lean about big feelings. Studies show that humans hate uncertainty. Most people would rather know for sure that something bad is going to happen tomorrow than only have a fifty chance of something bad happening tomorrow.

Humans have a deep aversion to uncertainty because our brains play tricks on us to make us feel like we can predict the future, which makes us feel a sense of control. Anxiety does not accurately affect risk or reflect risk. There's a mismatch between how stressed we feel about something

and the likelihood that it will happen. People can go into quote anxious fixing, vacuuming, making to do lists, et cetera, instead of sitting down and taking five minutes to check in and feel how their feeling, and then people end up exhausted after all this anxious fixing and are still no closer to getting rid of the anxiety that they were originally feeling. How do you sit and notice your feelings?

You can sit down anywhere and ask yourself if you have a specific fear going on, are the specific scenarios that you're afraid of realistic? Name them and look realistically at what you can do about it. Draw a boundary between what you can control and what you can't. You have to separate the withins from the beyond, things within

your control and things beyond your control. Adopting a mantra of I am a person who is learning how to blank instead of trying to be perfect helps You don't need to know all of the answers to anything that you're anxious about right now. It's okay to not know what your five year plants. Doing Any kind of ritual, even if it's having the same breakfast every day or doing the same things before bed every night, can help

us with anxiety. Any kind of ritual counts, and it doesn't have to be at the same time every day. Even scientists at NASA say that they make plans, but they think of agendas as plans from which we deviate. Learning how to make a plan, but be flexible for that plan if it doesn't go exactly how you wanted. Is how to handle things without anxiety. Some people have

more tolerance of uncertainty, and that's okay. We are allowed to design the life we want, and if we are drawn to riskier or safer jobs, that's up to each individual to assess. Work. Burnout is not something that you can recover from by taking a one week vacation. People usually ignore the signs of burnout because they don't know what they are. One example of them is revenge bedtime procrastination.

Thanks again for listening to Anxiety Bites. Stay tuned for another new episode next week, and just remember Anxiety Bites, but You're in control. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.