Anxious in Love

to modify correctly. There, that's okay, hang with me. So if though unrelated to any Hallmark holiday or not, if you are wondering why do I have such a bad picker. If you are wondering why do I feel so devastated after a breakup when I wasn't even with the person that long, I can definitely list a million issues I had with them that I wish could have changed. What is happening? Why do I tend to meet the craziest people and then I see other people and it just

seems to go so easy for them. So I talked to therapist Cat Defata about all of this today. She loves talking about attachment styles, which is the answer to all your problems, or at least understanding them is um at the beginning of your journey in knowing how to work on some things that might change the way you show up for or don't show up for, not just romantic relationships, but all relationships and even relationship to self.

But we were talking, you know, a little bit before the microphone was recording, about that TV show, The Millionaire Matchmaker, and uh, the woman on it would always say to her clients, your pickers off, your pickers off, you know, you like the thing that makes you pick people. And I find that so incredibly frustrating because I think, what the millionaire well, what I know the Millionaire Matchmaker is

getting wrong? And I know it's just a cute expression, right, It's a it's a way of her saying, this is your fault. But like, you're not inherently bad, and yes you're worthy of love, but you're making some mistakes in your choices. But it's not about the first choice you make. It's not about oh my god. People with a good picker say yes to someone who asks them out, and they inherently know that that person would make a great partner,

and they say no to all the troubled people. Not really, It's less about the initial moment of picking you know, someone to go on a date with or have a crush on. But what do you do when it's not meeting your needs? Even if you know that within a couple of days, even if you see massive red flags within a few days, do you stay and think, well, maybe I'm wrong or maybe it'll get better. Do you ignore the feeling in your stomach that says this just

isn't it. That is where making choices comes in. And that's if you want to use the expression you're pickers off. You're picking to stay other people that you think are quote normal, they would just piece out at that point and you might not even ever hear about these stories. Right.

It's like going into a clothing store and you try on a million things, and if you end up buying a bunch of stuff that, well, it doesn't fit now, but after next week, you know, I'm going to have that root canal and then i won't be able to eat for a few days, and so I'll probably lose a lot of water weight. So these pants will fit perfectly in about a week. Oh well, you know this doesn't quite look good on me, But I'll figure it out if you just think of it that way. In

terms of shopping, it's like, are you doing that in relationships? Well, you know nobody's perfect, so and it's like, well, no one's looking for perfection, but does it fit you? And you know you might see someone who doesn't have the same Well, I'm gonna well, I'm gonna stop with this stupid clothing analogy. I think you get what I'm saying. I was going to continue. I just saved you from hearing me go. Well, and then the person who tries on something, I mean, I can't believe I thought I

should do that. Anyway, you don't need to hear me babbling anymore. Let's just get to this episode. But I met um Cat de Fata when I was on her podcast, which is also here on the i Heart Radio network. I Heart podcasts her therapy, her therapy. Her podcast is

called You Need Therapy. And I was on her show a few months ago, and she is just such a delight, and she's so smart and she's so excited to talk about therapy and psychology that that's my favorite kind of guests is just I mean, actually, no one on this show has not been excited, so I don't know what I'm talking about, but let's get right into it now, actually right now. Um On her own podcast, You Need Therapy podcast dot com, Cat Defata is doing a whole

series really in depth on attachment styles. So definitely listen to this episode first, find out more about it, and we do talk about our personal experiences, and then head on over to her podcast and really dive deep. But um, so, Catherine de Fatah is a licensed therapist. She has her master's degree. She's the founder of Three Chords Therapy, which

is a private group therapy practice in Nashville, Tennessee. She's the host, as I mentioned, of the Union Therapy podcast, where she invites listeners into conversations around what it's like to live fully in a world where we've become accustomed to shut parts of ourselves off. The Union Therapy podcast is a space that welcomes everybody in discomfort, asks tough questions, and hard truths, all while showing how to find joy through it all. So here is my chat with Cat.

So you're going to tell us about the two insecure attachment styles, which is perfect for the Anxiety Bites podcast because this does involve anxiety, right, yeah, all right, and I will say the reason that this is really important is because, um, if you have an insecure, anxious attachment style, those people have the highest tendency to have things like O, C D anxiety disorders and just like generalized anxiety disorders. So let's start from the top. We'll go from the

very beginning. So there was this guy and if you have you learned about this, like John Bowlby and all this uh not not that in depth, but yeah, take us through the history because I certainly I am no expert. Okay, So there's this guy. His name is John Bowlby, and he was a psychiatrist and after I think it was, um it was in the nineteen fifties, and he's working in orphanages somewhere. I don't know where he was, but

he was in an orphanage. It was watching these kids, and these small children get all their needs met like uh, food, shelter, water, all of that, but they weren't um thriving and they are actually like the opposite was happening. There is a lot of stuff that was like didn't make sense to him of why these these children um uh becoming ill

and all different ways. So he developed this theory attachment theory, and basically it said there is another part of survival that we're missing, and it's our attachment and basically said that our attachment system is just as important as any other system in our bodies, like our digestive system or something like that. Like without attachment and connection, we will not be able to thrive as humans prize of species.

And if you think about like back in the day, um, like back back back in the day, like even like caveman times, it's like people that were in a pack were more likely to survive than somebody who was living alone on an island. Right, And so from the our earliest beginnings, we've been taught that like to thrive, we need to be acted to somebody or something in some way.

So he developed that theory and then later this woman named Mary Ainsworth did this study called um the Strength Situation, and it is probably the most important part of attachment research. Did you say the strength situation? Strange situation? Yeah, oh,

strange situation. Okay, So I won't go into all of that, but basically it was an experiment where she had like a primary caregiver, a mom, and then a small child, and what they would do is the mom would leave and then come back, and based on the child's response to her leaving and coming back, they developed the different attachment styles for early childhood. Which you had secure, which secure is fifty percent of people in the world, so and that's an adult to like, fifty of us are secure. Also,

you can have an earned a secure attachment. So let's say we had an insecure attachment early on or we developed it later in life. That can change so we don't have to worry and fret and think that we're gonna stuck here forever. So you had had UM secure, and then you had three insecure types. One is disorganized and that one of there's not so much research on. Most likely it's not you. It's like two people, and so we won't really talk about that today. UM. And

then you had UM anxious, ambivalent, and anxious dismissive. So so those are the early ones. Then we moved to adult attachment, and we have the disorganized, which is fearful, avoidant and adult. Then you have secure. Then you have UM an adult anxious and adult avoidance. And then you also might hear those being called the anxious one being preoccupied in the avoidant one being called dismissive, an adult attachment in the adult attachment of words. It's a lot, yeah,

but it's interesting. It's good to know because for anyone just kind of googling out there, um, you might see things and say, oh, that's me, you know, and you just have to know a little bit more about it before you self diagnosed, because you might you might be leading yourself down the wrong path and stressing yourself out. Yes, no, really, because I think that people this stuff is so interesting and it's so helpful, and so people are like, oh, I want more of it. I want more of what.

I want more of it. But if you just google this, it's like you get inundated with all this information and you don't know how to organize it, and then it all starts to send the same and then you're like, I am never going to get out of this hole that I'm in. I've been looking on the internet for seven hours. Like it's a lot. So I think that what you're saying is important is sometimes you just need to take a back seat and maybe like go to the person who knows it, the professional, and not try

to just google search all of your issues, but it's hard. Yeah, I found for me when I you know, I mean it took me. I'm I'm forty seven, and I didn't find out about attachment styles until I was in my

early forties. It really would have been helpful earlier to understand, um, so many things about how I was in relationships that you know, I'm not gonna say wasn't my fault, but like, wasn't my fault but something I could change or something I could look into at least, or just when I know I'm up against a dead end here with someone else in their attachment style that you know, we're not

going to change it. And then once I started getting a lot of work done on myself just as an individual, I can now say that I'm pretty that I'm securely attached. My a very short lived relationship I had a little while ago was just didn't work out. But it was like, because I was so securely attached that I too, because I feel like I've moved into secure attachment, um, which I look at as a relationship with myself, if that makes sense, that what wasn't going to work out about

this relationship was fine with me. It didn't make me go. But this person is perfect except for the big, glaring things that aren't perfect. You know. Anyway, I was fine with it. It hurt in a very normal way for it to end, because I was like, oh, that was fun, Like that could have been fun. It's it's all was okay to mourn. You know, we're human, We're gonna mourn. Oh that would have been fun. Imagine if this kept going. But it was and it was like, uh, here I go,

returning back to the sea, you know. And it was like kind of like mildly painful just for a little bit, but definitely not the um deep despairs to God, the despair, the let me just I don't care if the world ends. I'm so depressed over this person that I you know, again, I'm not talking about major relationships that ended, like smaller ones that you know. I was getting triggered by this

different attachment style thing but didn't know it. It's just the depths of despair when these relationships end, and you can get misdiagnosed a love at it to get misdiagnosed a codependent, and it's like all of that is great to look into. I think we should read everything we

can about everything. Um, there's always helpful stuff everywhere, but again it didn't click for me, and I didn't feel like I have something to learn and oh my god, good until I read even the slightest bit about attachment styles. So it is helpful, but then you have to kind of take it to your therapist and say, you know, help me unpack this and all that. So I'm sorry to interrupt. I had to go on my personal monologue.

But that's, you know, been my experience so far. That's so good because I will say, as a clinician who literally uses attachment theory as a basis of everything that I do, I have to take sometimes sometimes and be like, okay, what is this Because what we want to do is we want to find a solution to a problem. So if I can just diagnose you with codependency, it's like boom, we're done. We're good. But I have to wait what

else is going on? But there are a couple of things that you said and that that were so important. One thing about over diagnosing love addiction and codependency. The other thing when you were talking um about being in these relationships and being like, well, I'm not trying to change them, I'm not trying to do this, You're not. What you're really doing is you're trying to change the

the the mental model you have of yourself. Because the question that we're asking ourselves, the question that we're asking ourselves, am I worthy of love? Am I worthy of attention? And my eye worthy? So that's what we're trying to

figure out. So when we're with these people who are giving us these like little red flags or whatever is happening, it's not that we're trying to change them and make them a better person and heal them that we're always trying to be these fixers and have this like savior complex. Is that we're trying to prove that we are worthy of love. So if we can stay in this relationship and make this person who's maybe they're avoidant or maybe they have all okay, then I can prove to myself

that I am worthy of love. And that goes back to that earliest example with talking about the um emotionally avoidant dad. So if I can then be with this person, I'm not trying to change this person and and make them this like um like dooey gouey love e emotional person that they're not. I'm just trying to prove that I'm worthy of love and that this person will stick around. Yeah, and I've done that. And it was so funny because I remember my therapist did say something like that. She

didn't explicitly say and this. You know, sometimes I need facts and things to read. So she had said that's

an attachment style thing, I would have taken it more seriously. Sometimes, you know how it can be when you're a patient and you your therapists something, and every once in a while you kind of like, my brain doesn't assume she's talking from a clinical standpoint because it's such a personal relationship that every once in a while I can react as though it's a friend or parent telling me something, and I can get a little defiant and I can be like, hmm, I don't relate to that. You know,

I love myself. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm a comedian. I go on stage and I don't even care if people don't laugh. I love myself. I travel alone and I do. I mean, I think I have a really healthy self worth in a lot of ways.

But that's why it didn't make sense to me that in this one area when somebody was avoidant, you know, of course they don't always and then we're not talking about narcissism, love bombing, we're not talking about that, but when someone is really into it at first, and for me, that's always a red flag. Now it is didn't used

to be. When they're really into it at first, I can usually clock like now I could clock it like, okay, give this three weeks and you'll start being avoided and I'll say, hey, you're just it's not that I want to be around you every second, but you're just acting differently than you first did. So I'm wondering, like, is this your natural kind of progression um and it's all good? Or is this going to keep going and going and going and going less and less and less and less.

I'm not asking for a lot of attention. I'm literally just asking, like, has anything changedho We talk about it, and I don't realize that I'm not saying that to someone that can handle that question. So all they hear is I need you, I need And it's like I'm literally just saying, so you used to want to hang out every day, Now you want to hang out twice a week, and in public and that's totally cool, like I would I would love that too. I just let myself go the first few weeks because it was fun.

But I have a life, and so do you. This is great. I'm just making sure are are we both on the same page or was that? Has something changed? And I literally had that once with someone and they were like, oh my god, you're so needy. Oh my gosh, you get away from me. That's what they do. And

I was like, oh my god, I'm not needy. And then I would tell my therapist I'm not needy and she'd be like, well, let's look into that, and I'm like, no, don't do the thing where I say I'm not in the middle like something, and I couldn't figure out what was going on, and it was like then she'd be like, oh, well they're you know, you're pursuing because they're running, and I would be like that's so basic, Like I'm not

like that. But I didn't understand that it was smart and deep and a real thing called attachment styles, and that that helps me, Like if I can feel like, oh, I'm just a human who's caught in a clinical thing, oh amazing. You know, if you're the example you gave is like a little girl with her dad. But this doesn't have to be gendered in that sense, right, So like if you're a woman dating women, it's not like

your mom did something. It can be your dad, your mom, just whoever the caregiver is, right, this is always the genderless thing. Well, so your early attachment is based off of your prime or a caregiver birth. That could be a mom, it could be a dad, It could be a grandmother, it could be a nanny, it could be whoever you're you're gonna you're gonna be create your attachments based off of the person that's in the closest proximity to you. And then as you get older and you

look at your attachment figures, it's just whoever's around. So it's more likely, based on off of research that men are going to lean more towards avoidance and women are going to lean more towards anxious in the insecure stuff. Interesting, So um, and that can be whether men are dating men and women are dating women and women are dating men and interesting, but if you think about if you think about that like to avoid and that's to say that like a woman, a woman can be avoidant and

a man can be anxious. That's just the general um. But when you have to avoid, you're not going to usually find to avoid it people dating each other because they won't even just like the cosmic well there, it weren't going to be very sure. Yeah, because if you think about it, your example was perfect. When you were talking somebody who has an adult avoidant attachment in the beginning of the relationship, it can look very love bombing, like it can look very much like all the attentions

on you. They always want to be around you. You're sitting there being like, wow, this is pretty awesome. Even if you're secure, you might miss the red flags. You're like, this is great. This it feels good right, it feels really it feels available and not inappropriate, and it sounds just like every other love story you hear where it's like we knew right away and we spent the whole

week together, you know. So what's really happening right there is that an avoidant person they have been taught um to kind of like shut off their feelings and their needs. So I think of it as like the example I always give us, Like imagine somebody in like footy pajamas. It's like from their toes all the way up, it's like zipped up. Those are their emotions and the needs because they were taught very early or throughout other relationships

in their life. If I have feelings, feelings, then signify a need. If I have feelings, then I'm gonna have a need. And every time I have a need, my needs aren't met. So I'm gonna just go backwards. Don't want to have needs, so I don't want to have feelings. So they just cut themselves off, and they do that in a million different ways. One of the ways is

preoccupation towards other people. So I'm going to give what I'm going to give you all the attention, all the attention, all the attention, all the attention, so we don't have to focus on me. I don't have needs. But then when the relationship starts to like actually develop, and there is some expectation, right, So they've given this view of their relationship that they're always going to be there. Well, then all of a sudden, it's expected that I'm gonna

be there. Oh, I can't do that. They make it look like you you're so needy and gross. Get away from me. But really their attachment system is turned on and they can't handle that because if then they start to need somebody or there is an expectation they're gonna let that person down, they can't handle it, so then they push you away. And a lot of times they'll

do that through like self soothing behavior. So if you find yourself in a relationship with somebody like this, they'll like work a lot, they'll overwork, or they'll video games, or they'll preoccupy themselves on like social media or something like that because they have to get away from the

like interpersonal relationships. They're very independent, very much so. But the interesting thing is, which I love putting this out for people that are like new to all this, is people look at somebody who has an avoidant attachment as like better than somebody with an anxious attachment. Oh, isn't that interesting because we're taught that independence. So yes, And

it's funny because it's not true independence at all. You know, independent people aren't afraid of other people glomming onto them like a like a ghost you like, no, And and you were talking about the codependency thing of like how that's been kind of demonized. But the thing is go back to the beginning of this conversation. We were literally created, literally created. We were born attached to another human being, like you had to cut yourself away from your mother

when you were born. We were created to need people, and so we have to have people in our life. We have to have connection. We have to have that to thrive. So we are when we people call people codependent all the time. No, we're all codependent to a degree, and we need to be. We have to be. So somebody who's avoiding is like you codependency, get away from me. Gross, go away. I'm going to go over here and do my own thing and look like I'm like the top

of the world. And people are going to then praise that all they're so independent. We'll be right back. It's so weird we praise people for being independent. And then the first thing you say to a single person at a party is have you met someone? And it's like, you know, it's like so many mixed messages. But okay, so let me ask you to define. Let's go into I mean, you tell me you're the you're the therapist, but I thought it might be go into however you

want to. But in terms of like, let's say there's someone listening and they're single, and they're like, Okay, I'm just learning now that this pick er thing is kind of byes. Talk about the two anxious attachment styles and I don't know if you want to talk about the adult And I want to say this too, because when you said that, I was like, um, made me think of when people you're at a party, people like have you met somebody? And then you'll hear somebody say well,

when you least expect it, you'll meet them. Just just stop terrible, yes, just stop, just stop wanting somebody. It's like, no, we if we cut that off, that is going to lead us less likely to find somebody. Keep it inside your soul that you want to be connected to somebody. Oh that's a great point too. Yeah, but also it's

just like kind of rude and it's not hopeful. I was thinking that, like, like I I'm not because of my attachment styles and just how I'm wired, I don't relate to the generic I want to meet someone romantically. I always go when people say they're like lonely and pining for a relationship, I go with who to me, I have to have a person of mine, and I know that that's like not totally you know, like on

the spectrum of healthy. But I have a billion friendships and I'm constantly connected to other people, like I am such a love bug in such a social creature. But on the other hand, I I do really well. Um and I don't mean on my own independent alone, but I just do really well without a partner right now. Um, And I have had times in my life where I'm I'm like so fulfilled and happy with like projects and

friends and exploring and travel. And people will say that's great because you're in the when you least expect it part of your life, and I go, well, don't ruin this part where it's like the the only payoff for this, um, you know, quality time with self is that I meet someone at the end, then that was all worth it, Like because what if I never do then then you know, there's just no Yeah, it's it's a hard thing to keep in your head that we need connection, but it's

also fine if not right, and it's not the point. But you're not you're connected. You you're talking about like, oh, the only connection is a romantic partner. Well that's not true because you're also what you just said is a beautiful picture of what it looks like to move from a somewhat anxious attachment to a secure attachment where I

am now connected to other people. But I'm okay self soothing in myself because somebody who is um avoidant, they will over self soothed, so they're overdependent, and somebody who's anxious will under self sooth and the only way to soothe themselves is through one special person. What I used to be like, And again I thought it was normal because I don't know why would I not think this, But and also because when you're busy sometimes it really

is just you have not a long time. And so in my relationships, it's like I work all day and then I'm doing comedy at night, and I don't have a million hours to to see a million friends. And so my partner became my primary sounding board for everything.

And it was like, if you had asked me, I'd answer in almost a Larry David way, like what I'm supposed to go home, tell my partner every single thing that happened, every single anxiety I've had, and I'm supposed to call a friend and say the same thing to them, and then another friend. I didn't know that, you don't. I didn't even know. It was like dumping everything on

a partner. I really didn't. And so I had someone point out to me once like you're so anxious, and I was like, what the hell are you talking about. I'm not anxious. I travel all the time. I used to have a fear flying. Now I don't. I really didn't realize, and I don't think he because he could only say you're so anxious, he couldn't expand on it.

And I think what his soul and brain and subconscious was trying to say is you are putting everything onto me, even if it's not big and dramatic, but it would be little things throughout the day. Send a text, Oh my god, the mailman just sucked this up. It was like every minute there was contact, you know, and there was like and I honestly like, I didn't take into account what it feels like to be on the other end because I didn't think it was a big deal.

If I send that text, you never have to write back. I don't care. I'm just unloading, you know. And so once I got out of that relationship, which was really, really painful to get out of. Um. It was not my choice. I the last few years have been basically pretty much single, and man, I've learned a lot over the last three years. I truly now have deep relationships with friends. It's like, every day in touch with at least twenty people, whether it's a quick text or so.

But there's so much I love you, and there's just so much intimacy, and I spread it around, like my friendships weren't that deep before when I was in this past relationship. And so what I've gained is a life, you know, and now I can seamlessly see how someone could fit into that in a in a way. But I never are used to understand like shows like Sex in the City where they're like, my girlfriends are my

soul mates. I was like, what, I literally didn't get that, you know, um, And so it's it's just interesting because it's like it's these little things that I feel like people don't articulate, where it's like I'm not a love that act, I'm not a whatever whatever. It's like I literally didn't know that you don't give everything to your partner because it was just wisdom. Nobody teaches that nobody

teaches that is nothing to what my parents did. It's just you hear these common wisdoms that are like, your partners should be your best friend, they should be everything complete me. This might be a conversation for another day, but like what you're also speaking to is how we used to just think our attachment was based off of our parents or our primary caregivers. Now we're looking at how our attachment system is created off of our life experiences.

So if I'm seeing all this content that's saying your partner should be your other half, your partner should complete you, like no way out, So then I'm taking that into my psyche and I'm like, Okay, then I'm going to be looking for the person that does these things. And if we look at media TV, the shows that even like I just went to Disney World with my niece, my two little nieces, and I'm looking at these like princesses and these fairy tales, and I think they're so

cute and they're awesome and they're wonderful. But also I was taught how to have relationships through those movies of like your Prince Charming will come and fix you and sweep you off your feet and make everything better. So then you're going to be looking that's shaping how relationship should be. So if I'm not getting that, then there's a message in my head that's like, well, there's something

wrong with me. Why am I not getting that? It's interesting you say that, because honestly, I did not know that we truly are shaped by media because it sounds so trite, almost like, oh, come on, how could we be that influenced? I mean, we're not stupid, but it's really good to hear that. I had no idea that that can inform our attachment styles as much as our caregivers.

That's wild. And if you look at I'm so grateful for this, but a lot of stuff is changing, especially in like um, the younger generations TV and stories that are being exposed. UM. But if you look at that, the way that relationships were shown and displayed is very unrealistic. And if you are watching that, and here's another thing, somebody who has an avoidant attachment style is going to probably watch a lot of TV because as a self student in a way to like um, avoid and just

dismiss life, I'm going to be sucked into that. So I'm taking all this information in, and then the information that I'm taking in is telling me this is what a relationship looks like, this is what a family looks like. If I'm not young, I don't know how to differentiate between this is not real and this is real. Wow. We'll continue the interview on the flip side of a quick message from our sponsors. All right, well, now take

me through the two anxios styles. Okay, so we talked a lot about avoidance, So I'm gonna start with the anxious. So anxious, and there's a great way that I easily differentiate between the two. So somebody who has an anxious attachment, so they are somebody who has been like shown hope and given hope and that it's been taken away. So they've seen people show up, they've seen relationships UM work out, they've seen if we go back to early UM experiences,

their parents are there. Sometimes It's like imagine you play soccer, like sometimes your parents come to your games and sometimes they don't. So like there's an expectation that I might be there. So I have hope and then it's been taken away. I have hope and it's been taken away. So then when I have the thing I want the relationship, I become this like stage five clinger because I know

what's gonna leave. I don't know when, so I want to hold onto as tight as I can right now, and I'm gonna do everything I can to keep it here. They kind of have a sixth sense, and this is like, none of these things are bad. I just want to say that too. It doesn't. I'm not like demonizing people for having an anxious attachment. I grew up with a

very anxious attachment. It's just their survival strategies really, so they kind of developed the sixth sense where they're more likely to be able to sense like danger or something off there. Like gut reactions are like really pretty good. However, they they they kind of move too fast, so they assume too quickly. They don't have this like moment where they can breathe and just like wait to see what happens. They get that gut reaction, they have to like move

on it right then and there. So do you mean that it could be a gut reaction if I like you? So they could get attached too quickly to or no, Well, yes, but that's kind of for a different reason I'm saying, I'm the gut reaction. I'm kind of referring to as like that something's wrong. Something's wrong, okay, so instead of like just sitting with it, they can't hang They know their feelings, they got to read. Yes, they have to

fix it. They have no ability to self regulate. An attachment is based off of emotional regulation, and the emotion that we're focused on the most is fear. So they sense fear and they cannot sit with it. So imagine you're texting the person you're dating, and you guys are having a conversation back and forth. It's great. Or maybe this is somebody early and very early in dating too, so going back and forth, the conversation is great, whatever.

All of a sudden you see like the dot dot dot the bubbles and then they go away and then he never responds, Yeah, something's wrong. Automatically, I'm making up a story of like, oh, was what I said not funny? Did they not like it? Did I hurt their feelings? Did they said they don't like the anymore? Like there's a hundred stories when maybe the reality is he dropped his phone in the sink, or he put his phone down to go for a run, or he is in

a meeting and his boss walked into the room or something. Yeah, there's no like reality checking. It's this narrative that something is wrong and now I have to fix it. So then you end up sending like fifteen text messages to this person, you know, Yeah, when really and and in that moment, I mean what you're saying. You know, we've seen it on TV million times? Oh my god? Do they not like me? Was that not funny? I mean,

any human is capable of thinking that. But the difference is is I can think that and then put my phone down, make a cup of coffee, and go, oh god, I'm so nerressed. I hope I didn't say anything else. Yeah. But the the person with with that attachment style who's not emotionally regulated, they can't. They have to fix it. They get they have to get soothed by that person

that made them anxious. Nobody else. They can't go make a cup of coffee and sit there and just like drink it and feel the warmth and like be in the moment. They have to go fix what they in quotes messed up. However, I will say this for anybody who does relate to that. What I always tell clients is you're saying one thing like that, like maybe you did say a joke and think goes funny or whatever.

If somebody likes you and they have a secure attachment, you're saying one joke that they don't think it's funny. Isn't going to be like, oh, never mind, I don't like them anymore. They're just gonna be like, oh, that

was a weird joke. It's so interesting though, because on the receiving end of that, if that other person isn't secure and they're freaked out by all the texting, it's so funny because it sucks for the anxious person because it really isn't about that person that didn't write you back. You're not obsessed with them. It's all about you, yes, And it sucks because it gives us this this impression that like, they're obsessed with me, and it's like, no,

they're you said. It's like the whole saying you know, it's not you, it's me. It's like so true, but but you're right. It's like, so they are trying to figure out am I worthy of being loved? Oh my god, it's so it's so vulnerable. Well, yes, and and both of these insecure attachments, they are both struggling with the same exact thing. Somebody who's anxious, their biggest fear is rejection. In a band them in, right, So they're clinging, but

they're gonna They're gonna make it happen. Because no matter who you are, if somebody sends you fifteen text messages in a row, I hope that they would be like a red flag. Right, So you're what you're doing is you're trying to run towards that person and pull them back in. But you're running towards that person and you're really pushing them away. So the thing about that, so that's the anxious person. The avoidant person has the same fear. I don't want to be rejected and I don't want

to be abandoned. But instead of them running towards somebody to pull them back in, they're going to run away first. So you can't leave me because they've they never had hope, so go back to the hope. They always lost hope. So if we talk about the soccer game, mom, dad, nanny, whoever it is it's taking care of them, never shows up to the game. They don't even know they have a game. They don't even know they play soccer, so so they are not They're just all over here by themselves.

So I'm gonna go ahead and run away and get out of this before you can leave me, because I know that eventually you will. So I'm gonna take care of myself. I'm gonna stop telling mom, dad, nanny, whoever, that I have a soccer game, because I know they're not going to come where the anxious person is going to remind them fifteen times that day and make sure that they get there twenty minutes early, and they're going to spot them before the game, and if they're not there,

they're gonna go call them. So now let me ask you, um, what does the secure person who has a normal, healthy, fair of abandonment and rejection, how do they feel inside? How do they act on that? So, somebody who has a secure attachment, they grew up with the idea that I am worthy of love and belonging. So they have that so they can they can regulate their emotions. They can feel rejected or abandoned, not like it, it doesn't feel good, but they can sit with it and know

that this doesn't define me. Breakups can still be really really really really hard because they are sad and there's a lot of grief in that, and there's a lot in that, and they know that they don't they don't ask those questions, what did I do wrong? How can I fix it? They're just like, oh that, it's like what you're talking about was like, oh man, that could have been something really awesome and it's not. And that's

a bummer. But this doesn't define who I am. And there will be somebody else, somebody who's anxious in their head when they're dating somebody and they start to see these like maybe red flag things and then they start to like cling onto them because the red flags things are freaking them out. They think in their head there will never be somebody else that will be there like this. I will never find somebody that I can connect with like this. And going back to the fairy tales that

we're told are soul mate, are one soul mate. If I think that we have one soul mate, if I find myself in a relationship and I'm in love with that person, I have to make it work because I have one soul mate and I can't lose my one soul mate. Right, this is like life or death in a way because you're convinced, really not even that much based on the person that they're that one chance. Yeah, and it is life or death because if we go back to our attachment system, we have to be connected

to people to survive and thrive. So in their heads, if this person leaves me, I mean we've I felt this, I would say, I'll speak for myself, I felt this. The end of our relationship literally feels like I'm dying, Like it physically hurts. And part of that is because the same systems light up inside of our body when we feel emotional pain and physical pain. So I am

really thinking I'm gonna die. I remember saying like, I feel like I'm dying because well, if I can't have this person, I won't be able to survive and thrive. I need attachment and connection. But what I didn't know is you can find it through somebody else. This is a huge question, not going to solve it on a podcast, but but basically, like the generic you know, like you're not giving someone advice telling them to go do this right now, but like in general, how do anxiously attached

people move into secure attachment? What what what what does it take? So the good question and a question that I think a lot of people want to have like a really easy answer to and the answer is pretty simple, but it's just hard to do. You're not going to heal your attachment through reading a book or listening to a podcast. You might identify it, you might be like, oh my gosh, that's me, which is awesome. Awareness is the first step always.

But what somebody needs is they actually need to find a secure base of a human being, um so that they can actually feel like somebody isn't going to always leave because we've developed this attachment because we had the hope and it left. We had the hope and it left. We had the hope and it left. We need some stability.

So what it requires it requires us to one be able to regulate our emotions because in all relationships, you're going to have experiences where there's like um uneasiness, right, There's gonna be arguments, there's gonna be fights, there's I mean, even with your therapist. I've had times with my own therapist where I was like boycotting her because I was upset. But in my head it wasn't this relationship is going to end because she said this one thing that hurt

my feelings. Then now I think that she doesn't like me, and so I'm never going to see her again. It's like, Okay, I need a break. We're having like a rough patch. She's gonna still be there when I go back, though. Oh interesting. Yeah, So that's what they mean when they say, like your therapist can kind of mimic that's relationships, that's all as a and that's why therapy is so important when it comes to healing attachment wounds. And I say

that knowing that not everybody can afford therapy. Um, and so there's this is an end all, be all, but a therapist is literally going to be a secure base for you, which is what we need in life to be able to have a secure attachment because you can say whatever you want. I've had clients that have cursed at me and said probably some of the meanest things I've ever heard, slammed my door so hard that the

frames fell off the walls. Like I to client who ran away from treatment, and how to chase her down a dirt road, like I've had all yes, yes, yes, I've had it all. But what I will do is I'm still going to show up to your appointment the next time. I'm still going to come back to work. I'm not going to leave unless it becomes like where you're being like the unsafe and I have fear for myself. I'm always going to show up no matter what. I'm going to be that secure base that will show you

you can mess up. You can say things and I can mess up. I can say things and we can repair relationships. There could be rupture and I can have repair, and you can do that with people. An avoidant person is going to go repair by themselves. They're like, you're not working out for me. An avoid that person in therapy either doesn't know why they're there because somebody else asked them to go, or it's like annoying to them.

We as therapists are like a bother to them. They're annoyed by us, so they're like, we don't need you. As soon as we start to like tap in and they start to feel and then they're their phooty pajamas start to get kind of like unzipped. They're like, I gotta go piece by. I'm gonna go figure out by myself for them to heal. It's like, you have to stay in it. We want you to regulate with somebody.

Somebody who has an anxious attachment. They need to learn that they can regulate through relationships and they can regulate alone at times. They don't need everything to be perfect all the time. We can have a disagreement and you can go home, make a cup of coffee, drink a cup of tea, sit on the couch and sit with that feeling. And I'm not going to leave you. You know, a lot of times people will say, you know, therapy don't work out for me. I thought the person was this,

that or the other. It's like, but you can actually sit there and say to them, I crazy. I think you're stupid and don't know what you're talking is. Now, maybe you do have a therapist that you know. It's not everyone's great, but if you have the right therapist, then that's where you're jumping off point. My brother, I have to tell this story because that's exactly what you're talking about. I had a client and uh, we're not supposed to play favorites, but I really loved this clients.

She was favorite. We I mean, yeah, we're human too, So there's people that were like, I love working with her, Like she was tough and her transformation was so cool to see. And in the very beginning of our work together, we started doing a timeline because we're going through a trauma. She came in one day and she was like, just so you know, I think this is Can I curse on here? Yes? Okay. She's like, just so you know, I think this is bullshit. I don't really understand what

you're doing. It's not helping me, and I feel like I'm wasting my money, Like you keep saying all this stuff, but like do you even know what you're talking about. It was amazing, and we had our whole session that day was all about her confronting me on things and me sitting there and being like okay and having a conversation. From then. That moment was like the turning point because she was ready. She didn't even want to come that day.

She was like, I was just not going to show up, but my mom made me and I was like, okay, cool, I love your mom um. But she was like after that conversation, it was like she could trust me because she got to ask the hard questions. And I wasn't like mad at her. I was I didn't like back down cower. I was like, oh yeah, this makes sense. And that's what I tell all my clients in our

first session. Sometimes they forget it is if I'm doing something and you're like, this isn't helping tell me because you're this is a experiment and this is practice on how we want you to show up in the world outside of this room. So if you can't confront me where you're literally paying me, I'm here for you, how are you going to do that with anybody? But I want you to see that you can confront me and you can say whatever you want and I'm not going to say get out of my office. Yeah, and they

need that that actual like action. So knowledge is great, but we change our systems, our attachment systems, through like actually going through the motions. So how would someone do it who's not in therapy right now? You know they're going to go in six months, but how can they get started? Can they do this with friends? Can they do it by themselves? So you can heal your attachment.

It doesn't have to be through a therapist. You can heal it through finding secure people in our lives, but we have to be aware of what we're looking for. And this goes to therapy too, because it's true not every therapist is good. And so if we can find people who feel safe and we can actually be honest about those red flags that we see, then we can learn how to do that through actual relationships in our lives. We don't have to do it in like a therapeutic office.

It's just sometimes it's easier that way. Anxiety bites will be right back after a quick little message from one of our sponsors. So this, this thing that's Patti Stanger says to people, you know you have the wrong picker. It does seem almost magical, Like I don't want to meet people who do X, and I swear to God, it's not like I'm I'm going to like, you know, their profile and reading every horrible thing about them and picking them. It is literally across a bar, I meet

eyes with someone or on an app we match. How then, how how is it so fucking I mean, it's freaky. I mean when we talk about psychology, we rarely talk about vibes and spirit like this is almost spiritual or magical or weird it's freaky. How do we find these people when we really don't want it? Like, literally, how does it work that that I'm across the bar and I find an attachment style that doesn't work for me? What is going on underneath there? How do we sense it?

So there is a part that is like the magrical feature, and it's just it is so freaky when you think about it. And it goes back to like Freudy and stuff in the beginning, which is like really really weird when you read about it, that we do have this like aura that we're attracted to. There is like like when you talk about like pheromones and stuff like that. It's almost something like that where we are attracted to

what we know and it pulls us in. There's that part, and there's this other part where sometimes what's happening is you're meeting the same people that are everybody else is meaning. But when we have insecure attachments, were less likely to recognize the red flags. So a lot of times when we get stuck in these relationships over and over and

over and over again, let's just go with the anxious. Uh, if I have an anxious attachment, I keep finding these people and keep finding myself in these relationships and this person is just avoidant and then and they're leaving me over and over. How do you keep doing this? It's because when I see the red flags, when I see somebody who is all love bombing in the beginning, and it's like all about me, and then suddenly they start

to drift away and drift away and drift away. Instead of me seeing a red flag and being like, oh, this looks like avoidant behavior, I'm sticking around longer because I'm gonna my head. I want to change it. I'm like I have to. I have to prove that I'm worthy of their love. I have to prove it where somebody with a secure attachment is like this guy or the skirl is cuckoo. I've got to get out of this. They're giving me all these mixed messages. This is not

for me. I love what you said. You are meeting the same people that everyone else is. It's just we you're taking one extra step just staying in it longer. I love that because I think if the headline here, if you have ten seconds only, that's the most important thing that is just a quick sound bite, is you're meeting the same people that everyone else is. It is not about that initial thing. It is about what happens one day later. Do you just go oh, not for me?

And there's so much there's so many like and sometimes I think they're funny. But all these memes and stuff that are like make fun of being attracted to red flags, And I'm like, can we stop doing that? Because that's not something to laugh about. That's like your your attachment that is actually causing you a lot of pain that where you're like red flag, I'm gonna stick with it, where a secure person is like red flag, gotta go by Man, this stinks. I wish this wasn't this way,

but I gotta go. So do you ever see couples that are like attachment styles that don't normally work out stay together and it works out like that that that's like the magic of them. Um no, I will like to put it simply like no, Like I I think that's like this like fairy tale that people want, they want that to be possible, but they're confusing it with like opposites You're gonna find because if you have an avoidant and an anxious person, the anxious person is going

to lean in the avoidance going to lean out. If you have two avoidant people, they're both going to lean out. If you have two anxious people, that is just a hot miss disaster Like that is just a chaotic, like the most most toxic relationship that you can think about that you can think of. So that's not to say, because we know attachment systems can change or it can change. That's not to say you'll never be able to be with this person, but while they're in their stuff, this

is not going to be good. What about an anxious in a secure Sure if the secure is like so secure that they're like, um, get your ship together, but I'm not going anywhere. But and then they do, that could happen, and there's a spectrum of this, right, So I think that we're getting into this this part where like you could be secure and have some anxious tendencies,

but you're not fully over here anxiously attached. You've done some of your work because most likely at the time a secure person who starts dating somebody anxious is going to be like this is I gotta go? Yeah, because I think I'm secure with some avoidance tendencies. Yeah, And so I can catch them enough but if someone calls me on it, I can say, oh, you know what, Yeah, that's the thing I do. Here's where it's coming from, Like I want to be in this. I'm so sorry.

This is my default mode. But it's like it's not, um, yeah, I'm aware of it, but you don't have fully zipped up. No, they're like half undone, so I can be easy. So it's sort of like not to say that everyone has to be a percent secure and those are the only people in the world that make it work. So it's like there's a spectrum, so you can be secure with blank and blank tendencies. So that gives everyone a lot

of hope. There's a lot of fluidity out there. Well you know what I also say, because I get that question all of the time from clients. It's like, well, I think they're avoidant, but don't you think I can make it work? Like don't you think? And I will say it wouldn't work for me, but it depends on how healthy you want your relationship to be. Oh, they're like okay, so it's so true, and it's like it can work. But are they at their therapist asking this question?

Probably not? Probably not. Yeah, I always picture like what's the other person doing? Are they caring about this as much? And it's just like yeah, because you have to think about somebody. If they're in their attachment, what they're doing is working for them. So an avoidant person who has is leaving getting these relationships it's awesome and they leave that's working for them because they don't have to face their biggest fear. Yeah. So if it's working for them,

they're not going to want to change it. So is there something about, you know, the loneliness that people aren't expressing because they're embarrassed that can lead to anxiety which is so like gut wrenching to me because I used to say, or people like, what do you specialize in? I would say like loneliness because everybody that's coming into my office, the root of their stuff is their bidding for connection in some way. And there are studies that

have been done talking about attachment. They've done They were done in research on attachment theory that show when you are exposed to an anxiety provoking event, if you're holding hands with a stranger, your anxiety levels are lower then if you're just by yourself, and if a stranger like somebody you don't even know. And then of course, if you're holding hands with somebody that you're connected to, your anxiety levels are like way wait, wait wait wait wait,

way down. So yeah, I think that if I could give any like hope to anybody in this realm of um sadness around like relationships or I don't have my one person, It's like, you don't need like that one on one special person to feel okay in the world and to regulate. You just need to be connected to somebody. You need to be open up to somebody. And just so you know, everybody is struggling with this and has struggled with this at some point in their life. Everybody

has felt the feeling of loneliness. We all have the same emotions. All humans have the same exact emotions, and we've all felt all of them. So you're not alone and being lonely. I love that you're so brilliant. I love I love hearing everything you have to say. And I know we only scratch the surface on all of this, but I think it gives a good idea to people to, you know, stay away from the memes. They're funny, but yeah,

you keep a distant from them. Yeah, and and you know self self diagnosing is one thing, but just becoming aware of something is probably just keep it there and uh, don't text back like a couple. At least we can start. There's where someone else. I used to tell people. I had one client that she always was like I want to She would send these novel texts and eventually I was like, you need to get like a hobby, like maybe you garden or something when you want to text.

And then she set me a picture one day where she had gone to like a plant store and bought like five, like five plants. She was like, Okay, my anxiety is now costing me all this money and gardening. It was so funny. So if anything, if you want to text somebody, go find another hobby. Take your mind off a bit for a second. I hope you learned a lot from this episode. And you can follow Cat on social media. She on Instagram is at cat k A T dot d e F A T t A

and at You Need Therapy podcast. Both of those are Instagram handles, and of course the link to every thing Cat is in our show notes if you want to read takeaways from this episode or other episodes. I will put the link in the show notes, or you can go to Jen Kirkman dot com slash Anxiety Bites podcast. If you are listening to this like the second it

drops on Wednesday. My takeaways might not be up yet, but keep checking and certainly you can read ones from past episodes if you want to send an email to the podcast about what you've learned. If you have any questions, If you want to share your anxiety tricks and tips and inspirations, please email the show Anxiety Bites Weekly at gmail dot com and it may be read on a future episode. Please use a fake first name if you don't want your real first name to be read on air.

All right, let's get into the takeaways. There are so many in this episode. Attachment styles are fluid. You can have an insecure attachment early on and then move into secure attachment as you get older, it can change. The three types of attachment styles in adults are secure attachment, anxious attachment, which is sometimes called preoccupied, and avoidant attachment,

which is sometimes called dismissive. Often therapists can misdiagnose a patient with love addiction or relationship codependency when it's really more of an attachment style issue, but people with anxious or avoidant attachment styles can sometimes exhibit signs of other things.

Most people who stay with a partner who isn't fulfilling their needs, they're not staying to change their partner, but to prove to themselves that they're worthy and lovable by trying to get someone ambivalent about them to love them. There are early attachment styles and there are adult attachment styles. Early attachment styles are determined by our relationship to our primary caregiver, and that does not have to be an

actual relative. People with the avoidant adult avoidant attachment style may seem to love m someone at first, and that's not because they're deceptive or narcissist, but because it's a way for them to avoid their feelings or their needs and they exclusively focus on someone else. Most people with anxious or avoidant attachment styles are not going to do too well with one another, and people um with secure attachment styles can still have little traces of avoidance or anxious.

But the news that people probably don't want to hear is you cannot change someone's attachment style. They have to do that themselves, and usually not while they're in the relationship with you. An avoidant person has been taught to shut off their needs and their feelings. Katherine says to imagine someone wearing footie pajamas that are zipped all the way up as a visual image of what that looks like. The avoidance subconscious thought cycle is if I have feelings,

feelings signify a need. So if I have feelings, I'm going to have a need. And every time I but need, my needs aren't met. So I'm going to go backwards and not have needs or feelings. Avoidance can self soothe by overworking, playing video games, preoccupy themselves on social media, all to get away from interpersonal relationships. We were created to need people and connection, but we don't have to

exclusively get our needs met by romantic relationships. An avoidance will over self soothe, and an anxious attached person will under self soothe so that it becomes that the only way to soothe themselves is through one special person. Somebody with an anxious attachment style has been shown hope and they've had that hope taken away, So when they get the love that they want, or think that they have the love that they want, they can cling for fear

of that love leaving. An anxiously attached person almost has a sixth sense about being abandoned and their gut reactions about things being wrong or pretty good, but they moved too fast when they react to those feeling. Anxiously attached people have to fix what they think is wrong immediately because they can't self regulate their emotions and they can't

just sit in it and take a minute. An anxiously attached person will be running towards somebody to pull them back in for fear of losing them, but what they're really doing is pushing that person away, and an avoidant has the same fear. They don't want to be rejected or abandoned, but they run away first so that they can't be rejected. A securely attached person does not like to be abandoned or rejected, but they believe that they belong and they're worthy of love. They can self regulate

their emotions. They can sit with their feelings and know that this breakup doesn't define them. They don't ask what did I do wrong? How can I go back and fix it? Nobody's picker is off. We may find ourselves drawn to people who aren't good for us, but anxious and avoidant attached people they meet all of the same people that securely attached people meet, but the differences. They will stay in something and ignoring the red flags, and

the securely attached stop at red flags. But it can get confusing and make you think that your initial picker is wrong. We can develop our adult attachment styles you're better or worse through media like TV and movies and the stories they tell about love. A therapist can be a secure base for a patient to help them practice moving into a secure attachment style. Again, thank you for

listening to Anxiety Bites. Everything you need is in the show notes, and just remember anxiety Bites, but you're in control. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.