Anxiety and Grief

lack of a better word, triggering. And so I that's why I really appreciate the conversation I had with this week's guest, Claire Bidwell Smith, and I'll get into her in a moment. But something I really love about how we started this episode is we took into account you know, if someone is listening um, maybe they need to kind of ground themselves before they get into the episode. And that had nothing to do with last week's Fear of

Flying episode. I've recorded a bunch of these interviews, you know, months and months in advance as I tried to get ahead of this podcast, and it just sort of shook out that way that these two episodes are back to back. But in um Claire's new book Anxiety, the Missing Stage of grief. Her book starts with asking the reader to, you know, make sure they're in kind of a safe space mentally physically. Maybe they need to take a minute and do some breathing before they dive into a book

about grief and loss and death and anxiety. And so we sort of talked about that at the beginning of the episode. You know, what can people do when they're about to listen to something that may just stir up some even if it's not emotions, but just physical sensations that are uncomfortable that you don't want to have while you're driving to work or sitting at your desk listening with headphones on. So I guess if you need to hit pause and take a few breaths and get get

centered and tell yourself you're safe, it's okay. But we are going to be talking about death and anxiety in this episode, and it's actually one of my favorite episodes because I love talking about death because I don't know if you're anything like me, but I'm going to die someday and I don't know when, and um, you know, that's sort of how we all come into this world, right. We don't get a return ticket, We don't know when that is going to happen, and in my opinion, I

think that's probably what's created a lot of my anxiety. Now, if I was given the choice, what would you rather not know at all? Would you rather be more like an animal who just has no sense of the fact that they're mortal? I guess not. I mean, I have a feeling that it probably works out better too to know though this is a special ex variants and this is a limited time offer. I mean, who knows. I can be pretty unmotivated as it is knowing you know,

um that we're all not here forever. So I imagine if I really had no concept of that. I don't know. I don't know how much I would get done in a day. I don't know how much I would really think about enjoying myself. Who knows. But one thing that I do know is that in my entire life, I've had a fear of death. I I pushed those feelings away. I didn't want to think about it because I thought to think about it would make it worse. In my

experience has been completely the opposite. Not thinking about the fact that people die or I might die has just festered in my soul, in my psyche, even in my body, and it came out as intense panic attacks. And and honestly, I'd rather be uncomfortable for a few minutes a day, intellectually thinking about death, maybe feeling some sensations of anxiety, than having quote out of the blue panic attacks six to ten times a day for decades like I used to.

And it wasn't until I read Claire's book that something just made sense to me that hadn't made sense for decades. And I that's why I love continuing to investigate anxiety, because I keep learning things, or I keep changing my own story and saying, oh wait, that's why I was so anxious about then, because I remember my panic attacks really heating up when I was about twelve years old, and until then they've been pretty relegated to airplanes, things

like that, places where it makes sense. But I started having panic attacks just around just in life when I was about twelve. And for you know, a lot of the story is, oh, well, you know, it's the eighties, and there was a lot of talk about nuclear war on TV, and you know, all of us kids in the eighties were just thought, any minute now, we were going to get newked because that's that's kind of what we were told. And I guess, I guess that could

have awesome panic. I mean, for sure wasn't my favorite thing. But I wonder how much I really internalized that, I really understood that that was an actual risk. I mean, I don't know, but it wasn't until I read Claire's book that I realized. I think when my grandfather died is when my panic attacks really started visiting me a

lot more. And so the way that my mind worked through this in the years, you know, my whole life actually was well, I wasn't that close with my grandfather and even know if I ever had a one on one deep conversation with him. He died when I was twelve. He had dozens of grandchildren. We saw him twice a year at holidays. I mean, really, what would I be panicking about the fact that he died. I mean, grandparents died.

We almost say it in a sort of flip way, like, oh, you know, how does it has anyone you know died on just just my grandparents, you know, like it's like all those people are supposed to die. And that's just sort of how I looked at it. You know, just just my grandfather died when I was twelve, no big deal, but it's like it was a big It was the first death I've ever experienced. I remember I did see his body um at the funeral home and and I

didn't love that. I didn't. I didn't mean to. I I turned a corner and open casket, and you know, and going to the graveyard and just seeing a hole in the ground and what you know, putting a coffin in there, and he's in there and he's not alive, and we all threw a flower on it. It's all very beautiful. But I mean, that's weird. I'm not judging it. I'm not saying that we should come up with a new tradition. I'm just saying that's just interesting, different experience

that is death in front of you. And I don't think I loved it. And I think in my brain the last few decades, I thought, well, I mean, if you're not that close with someone, how could it affect you. It's like, because it's death and you're twelve, and this is the first time you're seeing this thing, you sort of knew in the back of your head happens to grandparents. But it's gonna happen to you, you know, And uh,

he wasn't sick a long time. It was pretty sudden, and of course that affected me, but I really think gave me anxiety and panic attacks. I just didn't understand how those two were connected. And what I like about her book Anxiety the Missing Stage of Grief. I think it came out at the perfect time because I remember during the lockdown of feeling something that was not anxiety

and it was not depression, but it was grief. I was grieving the fact that the world was in the state that it was, that so many people were dying of COVID, that so many people were sick, out of work, scared that I didn't, you know, I wasn't going to be able to see people. I lived alone, and I have depression and anxiety, and I and I knew this isn't depression, because depression is almost like a lack of

feeling anything right, that this was more. Um, it just gets you in the gut where it just feels like this is so much sorrow. And I realized, oh, I'm in some grief around the pandemic, and I think grief isn't something we talk about that much because I mean, what are you gonna do with grief? Right? You know, anxiety at least know what you should do about it, whether you do it or not. Oh, I think there's some breathing involved. Everyone says maybe some yoga, maybe some therapy.

But grief, it just seems like, Oh, I don't know, it's too much, you know, and I have to work. What am I gonna do. I can't take a month off and go grieve somewhere, you know, and and uh, and that might involve crying, and I just forget it. I can't. And I've always heard about the five stages of grief, and I'd always heard that they weren't linear, so that if somebody dies, it's not like right away you're bawling your eyes out, and you might or you might not, or you might feel numb. And and I

talked to to clear in this episode about myself. A few times I did mention the death of my grandfather. I mentioned the death of someone I know, um in this episode. I really didn't want to. In a weird way, it just sort of came out. And the reason it did is, as I'm hosting this podcast, I'm not really trying to get advice for myself. Necessarily sometimes I am, but I just figure, well, if I feel this way, I'm not unique because I'm a human on the earth.

Maybe someone listening can get something out of the example I'm making of myself in this moment. And so I didn't love bringing up this person. I knew that that passed away, but I just decided to do it anyway because I felt like I didn't have a normal grief. Um, I was in such shocked. I didn't feel anything for a while, and people would call me. You know, I got dozens and dozens of phone calls within the first day of everybody finding out, and it was like, how

are you doing? People would tell me what I was feeling instead of just asking, Oh, you must be on the ground sobbing, you must be this, you must be that.

And because I wasn't any of those things, I thought I must be evil and the sociopaths and things wrong with me, and you know, and then when I would tell people I'm kind of in shocked, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Well once you're out of shock, you will be wailing and screaming and crying and it's and then just that never happened, and so we talked a lot about how to let others grieve, you know, and not grief shame, which is something that came up during the pandemic, or

what are you grieving about? You know, you have a job and you're fine, or you know you're not allowed to grieve because you know you're not the worst case scenario in this scenario, or or there's no right way to grief. But anxiety is a huge part of grief. Suddenly, you know, we talked about how people going through grief

might develop panic attacks or hypochondria or social anxiety. And what I found mind blowing was that what Clear wrote about in her book is that the five stages of grief were initially written about people who were dying, not for the grieving, and so there needs to be this sixth stage, which is anxiety, because I never knew the five stages of grief were initially just for the dying. So that kind of blew my mind and really and made me realize that we need to look at grief

in a whole new way. So I hope you get a lot out of this episode. Um, you know, I feel like it's a little bit of a heavy topic for this holiday season, but I almost feel like it's perfect because I'm sure we've all lost people in our lives in the holiday season brings that up, or we have our own grief about I don't even know. Maybe you dread the new year coming up because you're supposed to have achieved all of these things last year and

look ahead to the next. And I don't know if that kind of thing brings up grief for me, even though it's not just the you know, grief doesn't just mean somebody died. And we have a really fun conversation at the end where we talk about how we wish we could talk about death at dinner parties at grocery stores. So I think you will enjoy this episode. As heavy as it sounds like it's going to be, I actually found it really light and really affirming and really lovely.

So I'll tell you a little bit about my guest today, Claire Bidwell Smith. She's an American therapist and an author who specializes in grief. She has written a memoir called the Rules of Inheritance, and she has another book called After This When Life Is Over, Where Do We Go? And her latest book that is The focus of this

interview anxiety, the Missing Stage of Grief. She also has a podcast called The New Day Podcast, and every week she tries to find a way to make life a little better so that you do not have to suffer in silence. Maybe you're successful but miserable at work. Maybe you have the perfect family on Instagram, but you're at each other's throats in real life. Or maybe you can't even put your finger on what feels weird, but you know you deserve more. Whatever it is, You're not alone.

Hosted by renowned grief expert and therapist Clear Bidwell Smith, New Day offers easy actions you can try to keep moving forward. And Claire is a grief expert as I talked about, and she does lead programs for grief in addition to working with people one on one, led by her work in hospice and private practice. So let's talk

to Claire Bidwell Smith. My guest today is Claire build Will Smith, author of Aniety, the Missing Stage of Grief and, as the description says, taking a step beyond Elizabeth Coogler Ross is widely accepted five stages of grief. Anxiety, the Missing Stage of Grief explains the intimate connection between death and grief and how they specifically cause anxiety. Unpacking everything from our age old fears about mortality to the bear vulnerability a loss can make us feel welcome. Claire, thank

you for being on Anxiety Bites with me. Thanks Jan thanks for having me in your book. You mentioned that people should do anxiety level checkens as they're reading it, and so I wanted to have you explained first what that is and if you could take our listeners through one in case listening to this very episode might spike some anxiety for them. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, I think that's the funny thing about anxiety, or the slippery thing about it, is that we can have anxiety about our anxiety,

and talking about anxiety can make us anxious. However, the way to work on anxiety is to talk about it, is to look at it and to lean into it. But it kind of just gets scary in the beginning, right, And then the more familiar you become with talking about it, with looking at it, the easier it gets. But in the beginning we just kind of want to slam the door on it when we when we think about it or talk about it. But knowing how to just start getting familiar with it is the way to get a

grip on it. I don't think it's possible to fully get rid of anxiety, and I would love to think it is. I would love for that to be true. But in all the research I've done personally my own anxiety and with people I've talked to and clients I've worked with, you know, we don't get rid of it completely, but we can learn how to manage it, and we can learn how to how to be with it, you know,

but that requires talking about it. So if somebody's listening right now and they're thinking, oh my gosh, I make it really anxious during this episode. I've lost someone recently, would you is there anything you advise them to do while they're listening or before they sit down to listen, Just take some breaths, Maybe maybe listen during a time

when you know when you're finished. You can do some thing that to support yourself, whether you're going to be with a family member or a friend, or be able to call somebody, um, or just kind of go into it. Prepping yourself like this may stir up some anxiety for me, that's okay. UM. One of the ways we start to work out anxiety is to kind of externalize it, you know, so to think of it as this separate thing. It's not. We are not the anxiety, and it is a thing

that happens and that comes into our room, you know. Um. So thinking about it that way, like, Okay, anxiety is going to come in the room with me as I listened to this, and that's okay, I'm okay. Um, So kind of recognizing it, Yeah, that's so smart. I think

we do so many things unconsciously. You know, throw on a podcast, drive to work, you know, and now you're stuck in traffic on the freeway and and that might cause some anxiety, and now you're listening to this podcast of an anxiety and then you just get to work and begin your day. And there was no calm down in a way, you know, there was no book ending about it. I think that's smart to think about when we take in information. Yeah, I mean I think about

this a lot. People ask me a lot about about anxiety and whether or not it's increasing in our culture, and the answer is yes. Um. But I think one of the reasons for that is because we wake up in the morning and the first thing we do pretty much all of us is look at our phone right before we're even out of bed. We haven't gotten out of bed, we haven't talked to the person laying next

to us, if there is one. Now we're looking at our phone, and in the sixty seconds that we're looking at our phone, we're downloading so much information, a lot of anxiety provoking, right like what the president said last night, what happened overseas somewhere, what our best friend made for breakfast, that we're never going to achieve in our perfect goals. So like we're just creating anxiety before we've even gotten out of bed in the morning. So I think being

more intentional about information that we take in is important. Yeah, well, and getting right into your book. I it blew my mind when I read this, because I think we're all familiar with the five stages of grief, and can you tell me what those are? The traditional ones denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Okay, And so now we're adding anxiety to it. And what you said in your book is those five stages of grief, they are for people who are dying.

It was not meant to be a model of grieving for the people who are alive and grieving the death of someone, And that blew my mind. I don't know if anybody has ever said that before, if you're the first to note it, or if I just never heard it, but that really helps. It is something that most people don't realize. Elizabeth Coogler Ross I love her. If you look into who she was at all, she was like

such a bucking rebel, a pioneer. She was doing stuff and talking about things that nobody else was in the nineteen sixties as a female physician UM, and she was really interested in dying patients in this hospital in Chicago where she was working, and all the other doctors and staff were very dismissive of people who were dying and

of their experience. They were just treating them physically, and she was very curious about, like what was happening for them UM on an emotional level, and so she started to speak with them and she came up with this um these five stages that they were going through nial, anger, bargaining, depression, and then acceptance, which make a lot of sense if you're facing death, right, they actually do often happen in

that linear order. The five stages were so swept away by our culture that she then began to apply them to the grief process. There is a book, you know, on grief and grieving. It has the five stages in it. So these five stages were then applied by her to to the grief process. But even she admitted that they aren't meant to be this perfect formula, and they often don't work in a linear fashion in the kind of same way that they did for the dying process. But

our culture loves them. We love the five stages. We can't get away from them. And I think it's partly because it would be great if there were a formula. Right, You're in some of the biggest pain you've ever been in in your life. You're grieving the loss of someone you love, and you are looking for any way to not feel this way, and you're like, great, five stages. I'm gonna go through these five and then I'm gonna feel better. Right. That's why I think we've gotten stuck

with these five stages. I've heard you anytime i've been grieving something. Oh, it's not linear, So don't worry if one day you feel like you're an acceptance and then

you're angry again, and and and that is helpful. But for me, I it's reading your book made me realize I had this notion during the pandemic that I mean, I know we're still in it, but I mean the very very early stages of lockdown that I was, um, you know, I had heard about your work and I was thinking about, Yeah, that makes so much sense that anxiety is such a part of grief, because I think, even if it's not the death of someone, the grief of life changing, you lose a job, you have a breakup,

anything I think can cause anxiety. And I think the way we see people acting these days, you know, whether it's someone freaking out on an airplane, is they have to wear a mask or we just see a lot of pain, I think people are having anxiety about grieving. The notion that oh, wow, you know, we've never been through anything like this before. There's suddenly this disease spreading around the world, and and most of our lives were pretty comfortable and and and not just to say the

pandemic everything can cause us to grief. But I really feel like I saw a lot of anxiety and then that must be grief deep down in a way, right, Yeah, it's a big mix of both. I mean, loss is about transition, and transition creates anxiety. We have a lot of anxiety about change. Um. We are a very adaptable species, but we also resist change and we get afraid. Um. But we like to get comfortable, you know, get routines and feel like we know what's going to happen tomorrow

or next year or ten years from now. The pandemic blew all of that out of the water, right, Like, none of us had any idea of what was going to happen tomorrow, let alone next year, and in some ways we still don't. So we've been sitting with this unknown and this uncertainty which was always there. We never really had any control, but it seems like it. We have the illusion of it most of the time. And the pandemic really took that illusion away, which I think

you're right, started up so much anxiety. And on top of that, we were grief so much. We were grieving the loss of our usual way of life. Some people were grieving at people they've lost to covid um. People are grieving their kids being home from school, losing jobs and small businesses, and our health um, and so there was so much there to grieve, so much to be anxious about, and it does. It creates this perfect storm where people are totally freaking out on airplanes. It takes

so much sense. Anxiety bites will be right back after a quick little message from one of our sponsors. When we talk about grief, though, when I think of grieving, like if you said to someone, hey, you know you're experiencing is brief? It seems like I don't have time for grief. Grief is a vacation, you know, you take time off, you wear black, and you mope around for

two months. Who can do that? You know? I feel like in our culture you have to grieve while you do other things right, and so I feel like people just go I don't. I don't even have time to grief. That's like, you know, you have to be Bill Pionnaire with your own private island and a million people doing work for you. How do you? I don't know what the word is, but how do people grieve who are busy? I guess if that makes sense? Can you grieve and

can keep moving through your life if you need to? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. No, most of us cannot afford to just take two months off and sit in our feelings and like go to some grief or treat and costa rica or something. You know, it's it's not it's not an option for most of us. I will say that, um, many of us feel like we can't take time to grief, but that isn't really um a choice. Grief has its way with us no matter what.

And so when we don't create space for it, I feel like it's more about creating space than finding time. Oh that makes sense, yeah, And I think when we don't make space for it, it it shows up in these other ways, like anxiety, anger, depression, irritability, substance abuse, toxic relationships, Like it spills out in all these other ways when we don't make space to just really sit with actual grief and sadness and honoring something that has changed or

that we've lost. You know, Um, we covered up with all kinds of other stuff and we say, oh, we're not grieving. We don't have time to grieve, but you have time to be really angry and like drink too much and you know, freak out on an airplane. So like there's that, and then I think making space and time for grief looks like, um, you know, even just little bits of it, you know, listening to a podcast and just to have a minute to reflect on your

grief for your anxiety. UM. Journaling is a great way, which I know everybody rolls their eyes up, but it's really helpful. Take five minutes in the morning and journal a little bit. Um, let yourself cry. You know. I have a lot of clients who will schedule time for themselves to cry. And so they'll pick one day a week when maybe they've got a couple hours on a Saturday afternoon, and they will listen to some sad music and look at some photos of their person or listen

to some old voicemails and they'll cry. And then they button it back up and have to go back into their busy lives. And that's okay. You know, that's making some space and some time for it. I love that idea, because you're you're buttoning back up after you've released an emotion. I think people just button up before they've even done that, you know. And and uh yeah, I know people roll their eyes at all those things. Journal and cry, but

that's how we release. I think it's hard to because you know, I lost someone that I during the pandemic, not due to the pandemic, and um, it was actually my ex husband I passed away and we weren't in touch. We hadn't been in touch for a decade. And I know, um, I mean, I don't know, but I assume he died with some resentment at me. And UM. It was interesting because I didn't feel anything. I was in that shock

that you talked about in your book. And what I found very unhelpful was everyone suddenly was a grief expert, you know, and and everyone has had someone in their life who's died, but no one had been in my exact situation. And I felt attacked by the people trying to help me, UM, calling and saying, you must be freaking out right now, you must be bawling, And when I'd say, no, actually been shock and it feels bad. I feel bad. I'm a bad person. Oh any minute now,

you're gonna just break down. And I never did. But what did happen was I mysteriously started having a rapid heart rate UM the month after, and I went to you know, I knew, deep down this has got to be something. I went to the doctor and of course I'm normal. And then I suddenly had um tooth pain and I had the need for a root canal. My dentist said, you must have been, you know, gripping your teeth in your sleep. And so there was, you know, there was the grief. It was rapid heartbeat. I need

a root canal. And I cried a little bit once. But this notion that I never had this nervous breakdown where I'm like, oh Lord, and like crying and screaming. I still feel like I did it wrong, you know. And and there's guilt in that, because again you have these people coming in with their expertise, and it was like, you know, my first response to most things is anxiety. So I don't know why it didn't surprise me that that was a response to this. He know, it's funny.

I think that's the most common thing that people say to me, is they feel like they're not doing it right. Um and and there's no right way to grief, and and every loss is so different. And this is a complicated, tricky one, right, you haven't been in touch in a decade. There were complicated feelings. He's an X who knows how he felt about you. You know, how are you supposed to grieve that? There's not really a blueprint for it.

It's not the obvious, like someone that you were in a relationship with currently and loved and had good feelings about um, And so it's confusing, and I think it's hard to kind of even find your way into those feelings.

But also, this is the thing about grief that's interesting, is that a loss like that brings up so much like it brings up your history and your past and choices you've made an age you know, he's a peer, he's someone your age sense, and so it's just suddenly, you know, you you're looking at your life in this new lens. And that causes a lot of anxiety, right, Um, there's a lot there. But yeah, people love to be grief experts. They like to appropriate other people's grief too.

I think people get excited sometimes some people get excited about other people's free and they like to kind of jump in with it, um, And then some people don't want anything to do with it. I like the idea of being grief curious rather than being an expert, you know, just being like, what's what's your grief? Like? You know,

I know what minds like, but what's yours like. That's a great thing to think about because if if someone you know listening to this has an experience the death of a loved one or anyone, it's you know, they're they're going to have people in their life that have or even if you have whatever, whoever you are. Grief curious is a great way to put it, because I don't know, you you really see that person in front

of you. Yeah, totally. We saw a lot of grief shaming during the pandemic, which I just found so what's

grief shaming? Just really telling people that they shouldn't be grieving something that they were grieving, you know, like um, you know, especially privileged people who were maybe grieving changes in their lives and like they weren't allowed to be grieving because they were privileged, or you know, someone grieving the loss of a pet and that not being accept a bole because it wasn't the loss of a person, you know, just really putting a lot of judgment and

shame around people's grief process. And it was like why why why just just live your own life and have your own grief, And there's there's there's not a competition here, or you're not allowed to feel grief because you have so much other stuff, you know, like so many other resources.

That's not really fair. We all get to grief, we all get to struggle, and I think that's where, you know, a lot of the anxiety can come in, right, is that like self judgment, all these ruminating thoughts in the back of our head because you know, like you mentioned, when someone dies, we start thinking about ourselves and how can we not because we know we're going to die, And so I think, I, you know, I became very self focused anytime someone I know dies, even someone I

don't know. I just read about it. Someone my age it dies and I'm like, oh my God, tell me everything, cause I'm I want to know, you know, is this something that could happen to me? And I think maybe we have shame or guilt about that, But isn't that a natural reaction to hearing about death at all, is to think about ourselves completely. It's okay, and I think it's normal, and I think it's healthy and interesting, and it's one of the ways we grow and transform and change,

and we do grief. Celebrities and public figures, you know, people always feel weird sometimes about that I didn't know them, but you know, you can still think about them and you can still feel like you know them on some sense. They can evoke a lot of things for you about your life. There's a lot there, and I think we just need to let ourselves have more feelings. It's sort of like an excuse to take ourselves through the story of our life, you know, um that we don't normally

said are undoing. So one of the interesting things is, you know, we own our anxiety. And there's been many episodes of this podcast that come out where it's like anxiety these tangling, nervous feelings, maybe a panic attack. But how does anxiety manifest in the grief process, like you know, regret, guilt, sadness, replaying things, conversations we had or ruminating about once we should have had. Is what are all of the kind of symptoms of grief anxiety? Yeah, there's a lot um.

You know, grief anxiety is interesting. You can you can have been anxious to your whole life and and our you've been familiar with anxiety, and then you go through a loss and either either it gives you this big uptick and anxiety or you're having new symptoms of anxiety. Maybe you're having panic attacks and you've never had them before,

you're having social phobias or hypochondria um. And then you can be someone also who's never had anxiety, who has been just totally you know, pretty stable and study all along, and suddenly you go through a loss and and everything is anxious. Um. And so so that's that's interesting to look at. I think the correlation between your anxiety and the loss is the first thing to really look at. Um, you know, were you anxious before? If not, you know, clearly it has to do with this. If you already

were anxious before, has it changed since the loss? But the thing that I first do with clients when they come in, usually they comeing because they've had a panic attack and they've gone to the er and they're like that and they've had all the tests done and and the doctor has said to them, you're normal, you're fine, you're racing heart is normal, you're you're you're perfectly normal.

Go see a therapist, right, um. And usually they've said, well, my dad died last you know, like last August or something. Could it be that? And they're like, yes, go see a therapist. So um, So then they come to me, and so the first thing I really do is say, like, Okay, what's your grief been like? And this would be you know, looking back at your example of losing your ex husband, it's like, what's your grief been like? Have you let

yourself grief? Have you? Are there complicated feelings in the grief? You know, we have all kinds of feelings about people when they died. They aren't always positive. Sometimes we're angry, sometimes we're hurt. Sometimes there's unresolved conversations. Sometimes we fucked up and didn't do something that we should have done or said, or showed up in some way. And how do we sit with that and sort through it after the person is gone? There are lots of ways, but

initially it seems impossible. Um. And so we're we have all these complicated feelings that we don't know what to do with, so we don't make space for them, and then they spill out in this anxiety and these racing hearts and the panic attacks and hypochondrias. When I see so much, you start to worry about your own health and your own body and what's gonna happen now. That

makes sense. Um, is it hard to convince them that they can get they can work through the last thing they said or didn't say, even without the other person here, Like it it's possible. It's kind of it's really all about them. Yeah, it is. Um, I think it's really possible. It's hard. It takes time. Um, there's steps that you need to take. Um, it's kind of like I'm making amends process. There's a lot of self forgiveness required. There's a lot of forgiveness of maybe the other person required. Um,

there's self compassion required. You know, all these things that were like oh god, okay, yeah, I don't want to do those, but those are the ways that that we have to kind of the only way to move through those those things that are still sitting, those unresolved, those

unresolved things. You know, a lot of people, I'll see a lot of people who may be lost a parent, but maybe they had a kind of shitty relationship with that parent and now they're gone, and they're like, wait, it's definitely clear that I will never be able to have a good relationship with them. It's over and wait, we didn't get to talk about this and that, or maybe I did something. It's so hard to kind of

sort through that initially. But I think sitting down with a therapist or reading about these kinds of things, or even talking with I guess spiritual or religious counselor can help. You know, how do we how do we get clear about this stuff? How do we forgive them? How do we forgive ourselves? You know, I like that you said in your book closure is made up, and I think that is such a um kind of controlled, freaky thing

that everyone thinks. I just need closure, you know, especially if someone's going through a breakup, let's meet for coffee, enclosure. You're never having closure. There's never closure. There's never closure. So what what do you mean by that it's made up? And what do we do instead of search for closure? I think some of it is like sitting with uncertainty and unknown, sitting with painful feelings. We can't tidy everything up. You know, some stuff is going to be messy, some

stuff is going to be painful. Um, some stuff won't get resolved. You know, you're never going to um, maybe get an apology from someone you really want an apology from. So it's really more about learning how to sit with that, learning how to feel okay about it for yourself. They're never going to maybe turn into the nice person you wish they were or understand you in some way. But how can you understand yourself and feel okay about whatever it is that you want the apology for? You know?

And I think that constantly seeking this idea of closure is only going to harm us and get in our way. And I think too, you know, there are like layers when we talk about the word acceptance, like that's a tricky word, especially for grief. It's never going to be okay that this person died. You're never gonna be like, Okay, it's fine, it's fine that my dad died, but like it's not. It's never gonna be okay, um. And so that kind of acceptance doesn't exist. We can accept that

they're not going to be in our life anymore. We can accept that we're going to live with some pain around this. We can accept that things will be different. We can accept that we didn't get to have that final conversation or goodbye um, and learn how to sit with that and hold it. You know. Yeah, I think that the notion of there is no closure, it will always sit with us is like that can be a

relief that can actually bring the closure feeling. Stop seeking that thing, stop changing, I can bring that closure feeling people want, which is uh. Again, it's it's hard to quantify, like the even the notion of okay, if they were if I whatever, if I said this on their death bet or that, you don't know how that would have

made you feel. It may not have felt the way you wanted it to feel, and then there'd be grief over the closure I didn't feel like I thought it was going to feel, you know, right, And it changes all the time too, because we change, you know. So you know, Um, five years ago you probably had a certain amount of feelings about your ex husband, and five years from now you'll have a set of different feelings,

you know, because it changes. And then so our internal relationship with these people changes to our understanding of them too as weak or older, wiser, or have certain life experiences. We understand the people around us in new ways that maybe we didn't at the time that we were, you know, seeking that closer. Yeah, we'll be right back. Well, you know, your book made me realize something. Um, here's another personal story of my life. When I was a kid, I

had panic attacks. I started having them around like age eight or nine, but they were very specific to airplanes, and so, you know, we our family only flew once a year and otherwise that was it. But when my grandfather died when I was twelve, the panic attacks started. And they started literally the day he died. And I remember thinking, oh, that airplane feeling is here, which is so scary because it's not fun when it's in your home,

like your safe space. And so reading your book made me realize I'm reframing my reasons I had panic disorder in the sense that I always thought, well, I gre up in the eighties and people are talking about nuclear war a lot. But my grandfather and I were not close. He had, you know, six children and dozens of grandchildren. He was lovely. I saw him once a year at Christmas. I don't even know if we spoke more than two sentences,

but he was my grandfather, you know. And my dad went to visit him at the hospital as he was dying. And he lives a little further away from my grandfather's hospital than his brothers did, so he missed it. He missed the death, and my dad came home and I looked out the window as he was coming up the steps and I saw him trip and fall, and that that was something that that was a lot for me. I'd never seen grief like that where he couldn't walk. And he came inside and he was crying and he

just said, my dad, he's dead. And for me, this twelve year old right to hear my dad was you know, he's a life still, but he was probably his fifties then, So my Daddy's dead. I think that literally broke my brain. Yeah, that's terrifying. It was so tender of a moment and and there was hugging and love, and the funeral was great and all that, but I started having massive panic attacks at his funeral and they never stopped until I went to therapy ten years later. But looking back on it,

I go, oh, my god. I think even though the death wasn't the kind of death where you really knew someone blah blah blah, it was the first time death was real to me. Yeah, And to see your dad so affected by it, you know, and to think, well, I have a daddy, like what is that? How I'm going to feel if that happens to me? And that that could happen to you and that yeah, like and then I could be the dead person. I mean, it

was like a neurosis that just kept growing. And like you said, I don't think I developed hypochondria, but just fear of death, like just if I do, if I stand to one place, I can't die. You know, the less I do, the more I'm like saving my own life. And it just that kind of um I don't know how to put it, but reading your book really blew my mind where I went, Oh my god, that's where it all started, that feeling of because I remember thinking where did I learn that feeling of unsafety? What have

you uncovered about the flying? Did you have your pinpointed where that originated for you? Yeah, so I've done, Like I feel like now I fly all over the world by myself. I want to be if. I don't want to be a pilot, but I feel like I would love to be someone who flies with anxious people and

helps them and since I can't really do that. I started this podcast as a way to talk about anxiety, but what I pinpointed eventually was that it's literally just the in general lack of control that we feel in life and We don't really get to see how much we're not in control unless we're in places like airplanes. Sure, like I let tiny a little tube up in the sky, where really we definitely don't feel any sense of control. I inherently don't think the plane's going to crash, and

I actually kind of like being up there. But it's more that feeling of if I need help, but I can't get it right away, you know, unlike if I'm walking by a hospital and have a heart attack. Great. Perfect. So I think that's what it was, and that kind of seems to be for me, the everything of it all,

which is lack of control. And then your grandfather's death completely reinforces that, you know, like that people die, that we don't have any control of it, that your dad didn't even get to be there, and that he was so affected by it, you know. Yeah, So I think I think my question and all of that is like

people running around with panic disorder and anxiety. And I think a lot of times we focus on the world is stressful and blah blah blah, But it could be these little moments that I think, you know, when I think of death. I don't know how many times I've heard other people say it. I say it to go when people go, oh, is anyone in your life died? Oh? Even my grandparents. I was young, Like, like, their deaths don't count because they were old. I was young. Who cares?

That's like nothing? And I wonder if, like so many of us, are carrying around our first deaths as a

source of anxiety. Sure, you know, because even though you may not have had a really intense emotional connection to them as people are as family members, their death is still that first um, that first idea, and that first come firm ation that we don't get to choose how long we're here, you know, and that we do indeed exit and and we don't know when, and we don't know how, and and it's you know, I think that first knowledge of that is intense. It can spark anxiety

to begin with. And as I'm sure you know, anxiety is kind of insidious. You know, once it gets a hold and you don't do anything about it, it just grows and grows until you start to figure out what to do with it. Yeah, it's like your new best friend that you didn't ask for your like, this person keeps showing up. Well, you know, what I thought was so cool in your book is you talk in the later chapters about Okay, well, let's figure it out, like what do we think about death? Like do we believe

in an afterlife? Like let's let's almost get our affairs in order mentally, Like what do we think you know, and that can really help people? And how do you take people through that? Like when's the right time to start thinking about that stuff? I think there's always the right time. I mean, right now is a great time to think about it. We are such a death avoiding culture and we don't talk about it. We don't want to face it, we don't put our affairs in order

or um. You know, we don't even train our medical professionals on how to deal with death and dying. So here we were going through a pandemic and do you know they don't teach death and dying in med school. Like there's not a point at any point where doctors or nurses or anybody have to take a class on

death and dying. Right, So that alone is absurd, But then factor that into this last year and all these medical professionals on the front lines sitting there with like helping patients, say goodbye to their families over iPhones and being completely ill equipped to deal with that even for themselves, you know, because we don't talk about death and dying. We don't talk about it. So anything you can do

to talk about it, you know. One of the books I've written was all about the afterlife and just kind of exploring it. And my favorite part about that book was, for a period of years, I asked everyone I met with, like, what do you think happens when we die? And I had the most awesome conversations because it's not something you

ever really talked about it. I had these conversations at dinner parties and like in you know, just like on the bus or like wherever, and I would ask everybody, and everybody had a different idea and everybody was kind of excited to talk about it, and you can start they're just like letting yourself be curious, um, letting yourself wonder, letting yourself explore different ideas. And I don't know if

you're going to find the answer. I didn't find like some short answer, but I found different frameworks to understand life, different ways to kind of hold all this grief and loss. And I think that that's important. And the other flip side is like actually thinking about your own death, you know, like you are going to die. We're all gonna die.

I'm gonna die, You're gonna die. That's sometimes terrifying sometimes like Okay, I'm okay with you saying it to be now, but two am tonight I'll wake up and you're gonna die. But you know, if you kind of dig into that fear, like what's your biggest fear around it? Is it that you don't know what happens next? Is it that you're afraid of physical suffering at the end. Is it that you don't have your ship in order? Like I have three kids, and when I think about dying, my biggest

fears around them. And I'm like, oh my god, do they know that I want them to have my mom's you know, raying about this thing, or they know my thoughts on you know, the rolling stones, or like whatever it is I want them to like know, right, So I've actually worked on that. I've written like a letter that in the event of my death, if it were today, like there's a letter about all kinds of like here's this thing I want you to know about, Here's where

you go find this. I want you to travel to Mexico and go stand on this one cliff and think about when I was there at twenty two, you know, putting this kind of stuff in place. Um, it's scary, but it's also actually anxiety relieving, which is weird. It sounds kind of fun too, Yeah, I mean I love talking about death. You and I would have fun at a dinner party. I'm always like, I hate small talk at a coffee shop. How's your day going. I'd rather someone say to me, here's your change. Hey, what do

you think happens when we die? You know, I just think it's fun. You know. My specific fear is just suffering at the moment of and and feeling that fear. Um, I wish I believed in something, And when other people believe in the afterlife, I believe in it for them, you know. Um, technically, all I can imagine is that it's what it's like before I was born, which is just kind of nothing, and that actually weirdly comforts me some people that doesn't comfort Um. I can't comprehend forever

and ever heaven. And it sounds like, well, what if I get bored and I want to leave, Like that makes me anxious. So I just picture you know nothing and that's it. But it is something that I think, you know, just knowing right that we are going to die someday. How does everyone on planet Earth not just have a baseline of anxiety as there as their number one emotion? Right, we are so much denial, it's amazing. See, this is like, this is why it's the first stage.

We are in total denial at all times that that's going to happen, because it can be paralyzing, right, it makes you not want to move, um, like not want to physically move out of one spot because it's so scary. It's like, I'm glad that I'm aware so that I don't go skuideiving because I'm not into that. But like there's there's denial in terms of like Okay, I don't have to think about it every second. I'm allowed to

like go on road trip. But then there's yeah, if we were in acceptance, I think we think we're in acceptance, don't we, because we don't think about it, like we think we think that's acceptance. Yeah, But I really, I really adhere to the belief that leaning into this stuff helps alleviate a lot of this and makes us feel more prepared. Even the idea of suffering, if like, that's what you're afraid of, is physically suffering at the end, do some research on it, Like, there's a lot of

actually really interesting research. I worked in hospice for a long time, and I'm also very curious about physical suffering. And a lot of the clients I work with have watched a loved one physically suffer, and they have a lot of feelings about that after that person is gone, like so upset that that that they had to go through that. And so I've done all kinds of research

and what doesn't mean to physically suffer? And if you dive into it a little bit, there's a lot of different ideas and theories out there that we don't suffer and and feel it in the ways we think we do and the ways that we think we perceive it. Um So even digging into that might make you feel like, Okay, it's not going to be that bad. Well, even there are something you said in your book that the death rattle doesn't feel like it sounds. That was my favorite

thing I've ever read in my life. I was like, oh, my god, that's because that's that sounds terrifying. It's terrifying, right, but it's it's it's more like snoring, you know. Um, it's it's just the relaxation of our of our our throat muscles. I feel like there should be a commercial on TV like every ten minutes telling people that. I mean, I just feel like we need to know this because people sit around and think about that, you know, and and get can scare themselves. Yeah, but that's because we

slammed the door on it. So again, like just we we gotta just like we talked about the very beginning, you know, entering into this knowing it's going to be a little anxiety provoking to talk about, but then it gets easier and better and we get more of a handle on it. We'll continue the interview on the flip side of a quick message from our sponsors. Well, my last question for you then is I love how through your book, um, you talk about storytelling and how that

is so important and I agree. I mean, whether we're talking about death or not, or anything any reason why someone's anxious. I'm a big fan of storytelling, and it's one of the reasons I wanted to do this podcast is is just let's just talk about anxiety. Even if someone listening never goes to therapy, never does any meditation, there's got to be something said for talking and just normalizing. So how does storytelling clear role in dealing with anxiety or grief? And how do you do you teach it

in some of your workshops? Is that right? Yeah? I mean I'm always talking with clients about I mean, one of the things they do when they come to see me is they tell their own stories. So there's a lot of storytelling that happens. Um. And then I'm always asking them to write, which they hate, but they do it anyway. Um. And to write either the writing letters to the people they've lost, or they're writing about their loss, or they're writing the story of the person's life who

they lost. Um. And I think it's about intention. I think this is a way of career getting space again for grief. You know, we can't just slam the door on these things. Um. Like we keep reiterating, it asks us to look at our whole lives, right, what is the story about our lives? And then there's this interesting part about how sometimes we tell ourselves stories that aren't true, right, And this kind of goes back to the idea of what we were talking about with guilt or making amends.

Sometimes we hold ourselves to these things that that weren't actually true, Like maybe your dad there's no way that he could have been there for his father's death. You know. Um, we we make things up in our head to fit a certain belief that we have about ourselves or about that person. And sometimes when we take a step back and look at the story we're telling, um, what's happening there? Can you change that story? You know? Um, maybe you should change the story. Maybe there's a different way to

look at it. And it can go both positive and negative ways. You know. Yeah, that makes sense, And so you're not even necessarily seeing like people should get up at an open mic and tell a story, but it's really just either they're writing it down, they're telling your therapists there, maybe sharing it a support group, telling their friends.

It is really helpful. I think when we go through certain losses that are really big, it becomes so much of our identity and it can be painful to have small talk, you know, it can be painful to to just talk with someone about the weather, or did you watch that show and you're like, my mom died, you know, like you need to talk about it. It's it's like all you're living at that moment, and so finding ways to tell that story, you know, um, whether it's on Facebook or at an open mic or um, you know,

anything talking with a friend or a therapist. I said that was the last question, but I just want to say lastly, like just the notion of you also said, you know, grieving keeps us in the present, right and as we know from every single therapist, everyone that talks about anxiety meditation, staying in the present moment keeps us

out of anxiety. And so it's very interesting that this grief thing that we want, we're having trouble with, or we want to push away, is actually something that can keep us in present, which I guess keeps anxiety at bay. It is. But you know, with grief, um, it's tricky because we're often thinking a lot about the past. We're thinking about what has happened and the person who died in our relationship, and we're also thinking about the future.

We're thinking about what life looks like now that they're gone, and we're thinking about how our life has changed now that they're gone, so bringing our awareness back to the present moment is super important. It alleviates anxiety, It kind of brings us into a commerce space. So it's almost

like a great time to practice that. I guess if you're grieving always and you don't have to like stay in the present all the time, Like we're never going to not be thinking about the future in the past, but just like try to have more moments that are present. That's that's great. More moments that are present than less. Well, thank you so much for talking with me today. This was just, you know, fun, I like talking about that. I thought it was really fun. See it wasn't that fun?

Didn't I tell you that? That was kind of a fun, fun talk. So what are the takeaways that we learned from my interview with Clare bid Well Smith. First, whenever you're going to be listening to something about anxiety or reading something about anxiety, maybe do it during a time when you know that after you're done you can do something right away to support yourself. Or if you're going to be with a family member or friend, or you'd be able to call somebody, take some deep breaths and

get yourself centered. One of the ways to work with anxiety is to externalize it, so think of it as a separate thing. We are not the anxiety. It's a thing that happens and in a way comes into our room. One of the reasons anxiety might be increasing in our culture is that the first thing we do when we wake up in the morning is look at our phone. Before we even get out of bed or talk to

another human, we look at our phone. So if you can find a way to not have that be the first thing you do in the morning, that might alleviate a little bit of anxiety from the jump. The five stages of grief prior to this are anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Wait what that's four? What is wrong with me? Oh? God? I love how imperfect? This is sometimes denial, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance, or the classic five stages of grief, and

now we can add anxiety to that. Elizabeth Coogler Ross was the pioneer of the original five stages of grief. She was working in the nineties sixties. She was a female physician, and she was really interested in her dying patients. And she's a total pioneer loss is about transition, and transition creates anxiety. We have a lot of anxiety about change. Even though we are an adaptable species, we do tend to resist change at first and get afraid. We prefer

comfortable and routines. When we don't make space for grief, it shows up in other ways, like anxiety, anger, depression, irritability, substance abuse, and toxic relationships. Journaling, although, as Claire says, you may roll your eyes at that it takes five minutes, you can do it in the morning and let yourself cry. That's a great way to sit with your grief while then getting up and going on about your day. There is no blueprint for grief, and most people feel like

they aren't doing it right. When talking to someone about grief, before you go and give advice, be curious, don't try to be an expert. Ask them what their grief was like, and tell them what your grief was like. Grief shaming is telling people that they shouldn't be grieving something because they are in a privileged position. It may feel weird,

but it's totally normal to grieve. Celebrities and public figures um when they die, even if it's people that you didn't know personally because they evoke a lot of things for you about your own life. If you have had anxiety your whole life and you're already familiar with it, when you go through a loss, it can give you a bigger uptick and anxiety. Or if you've never had anxiety and you go through a loss, you can certainly

develop panic attacks, social anxiety, or hypochondria. Grieving also requires a lot of self forgiveness. There is never closure. Repeat, there is never closure. And that's not just about death. That could be about a break up, anything. There is never closure. Some of grief is having to sit with the uncertainty and unknown, sitting with painful feelings. We really can't tidy everything up. It will be messy, it will

be painful. Some things won't get resolved. You may never get an apology from someone you want one from, So it's really about learning how to feel okay about things for yourself. Storytelling can be a big part of healing your grief. Whether you literally get up and go to an open mic and talk to a group, or you write letters to people that you've lost, or you write

a story in your journal. Storytelling is how we honor people, how we get our feelings out, and it does tend to alleviate anxiety because it creates a space for the grief. When we are in grief, a lot of times we are projecting into the future, what will life be like without this person or this situation, or we're going into the past or remember when things were like this, And just like with anything else, when we're not in the present,

it's easy to be anxious. The present moment always brings us back to a more calm place, and in a weird way, staying in the present, staying in your grief for a minute can help alleviate that future tripping or past remembering anxiety. Thanks again for listening to Anxiety Bites. I All I want for Christmas is one thing I would love five hundred five star reviews on my iTunes. I mean, listen more would be great, but let's go over a five hundred. We've got about four hundred and

fifteen right now. It really helps other people find the show, and all I want is everybody to find this show and to listen and feel like they're normal and okay, because they are. So. If you go to Apple Podcasts, I said iTunes didn't I. If you go to Apple Podcasts, you can leave a five star review there and I would love it again. That's all I want for Christmas. Thanks again, and there will be a new episode next week, and just remember anxiety Bites but You're in control. Thanks

again for listening. And oh one thing, if you want to follow me on social media, I'm at Jen Kirkman j E N K I R K m A N on Twitter and same thing at Jen Kirkman on Instagram. There is no separate account for this podcast. It's just easier if I keep it all under my two things. So go there, tell me what you think of the show, and now I will end it Anxiety Bites, But You're

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