Rethinking Work: Is it the end of the full time job?

In the very near future, are we headed to the end of the full-time job? Hello, I'm Chester Elton and with me is my dear friend and co-author, Adrian Gostick. Well, thanks, Ches. You know, what you're hinting around is called the access economy. Companies getting the talent they need when they need it. For instance, many small and growing businesses say they can't afford or maybe don't even need full-time executives, so they're hiring flexible C-suite leaders to come and go as needed. Our guest today is gonna explain how all this will work and how we can all best navigate this future. As always, we hope the time you spend with us will help reduce the stigma of anxiety at work and in your personal life. Yeah, this is gonna be a really interesting topic. I'm excited about this. With us is our new friend, Sarah Dahl, an expert on the future of work. Her new book is Strategy and Leadership as Service. Now, she is the co-founder and group CEO of the CFO Center and the Liberty Group, the number one provider of part-time and fractional C-suite professionals worldwide. Now, Sarah is a graduate in chemistry from Oxford University, a chartered accountant, holds an MBA from the London Business School, and a master's in consulting and coaching for change from a program jointly run by Oxford University's Said Business School and HEC Business School in Paris. So not an intimidating resume at all, Sarah. Sarah I want you to know that I have my high school diploma from Hillside High School in West Vancouver British Columbia, which since I graduate has been torn down so intellectually I think we're pretty much at the same level Thank you for finding the time Yeah But thank you for finding the time. This is a fascinating subject and we're delighted to have you on the podcast Oh, thanks very much for having me and I hope I'm not intimidating at all. So, yes, I don't want to create anxiety about that. Now, Chester is intimidated by lots of people. Now, no, actually, there's very few things that intimidate Chester. But, okay, so let's dive into this big picture idea because, like I said, we're excited to talk on this because what you're talking about is I think rethinking employment. The end maybe of the proper job. So now, if I understand the concept, companies may not need to keep an expensive talent. You don't keep a Rembrandt or a Beethoven on the payroll unless you need to paint a picture or have a song composed. You bring talent when you need it. Is that the right idea here? Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's about having the right talent in your business for the right amount of time doing the right things. And I think, you know, historically, we've all, we're all used to employment. It's traditional, we're used to it. It's what we know. And we've always thought of roles as being permanent, being full time, and actually sitting in an office as well. And obviously, that's changed recently with all the goings on around COVID, et cetera. So we're rethinking work, and technology is changing. And I think we're moving to a place where we're realizing that, firstly, we don't need talent on the bench when it's not being used, as it were. And we also are looking for a different way of living and working. So I think it's sort of been driven by a couple of things. Firstly, the professionals out there are thinking, actually, I want more meaning and purpose in my work. I want to live and work differently. I want more flexibility. I want more control, more agency. And going to fractional working is a way of achieving all of that. And then on the flip side, you've got these entrepreneurial organizations who've actually never been able to access C-suite talent very well because they can't afford the full-time version. It's just out of the question. So actually, by being able to tap into the access economy, they get the right talent at the right time. And it can be a long... I think the difference that I'm looking at is that it can be a long-term solution term solution as well. You can go with these businesses for a very long time delivering this talent flexibly and be as loyal to those organizations as if we were employed. And I think that's the difference. Yeah. You know, really interesting concept. When you talk about more meaning and more purpose, I want to talk to you a little bit about this though because what you described, it can be really good for the company, right? I can bring in this talent and I can bring it in when I need it and so on. But I want to challenge you a little bit on this because for the employee, it seems to me that this becomes a little more stressful. You know, I've got to be looking for that next job. I've got to have enough of these part-time jobs to cobble together. And then of course, you know, Adrian and I live here in the United States. You are always thinking about your retirement funds and your healthcare and so on. So doesn't this actually, while it's great for the company, I get the benefit there, doesn't it create a little more anxiety like, what's my next gig? Do I have enough fractions to put together a whole? Walk me through that. Yes. You're absolutely right. I mean, that can happen. So I think the way to look at moving into fractional work, particularly at the C-suite level, is to think of it as a career change, firstly. That's the first thing to get to adopt as a mindset. So yes, I might be a great CFO, I might be a great CMO, but actually, I need to learn to work differently because I'm going to work with a range of companies. I'm going to potentially be a little bit more remote with some of them. And I'm going to have to deal with a different sort of type of company every day. It might be a different culture every day. It might be a different set of challenges every day. So yeah, you're right. It does present new challenges, which might actually be sort of anxiety-inducing, if you like. However, I think there are certain people out there that face with the alternative, which is C-suite corporate, very long to-do lists, 24-7 on, expected to have elevated mindset, expected to be on top of everything. I think the alternative is with a fractional approach. And if we learn the skills to find the clients that we want to work with, and I think that's the challenging bit to start with. If we learn those skills, what it means is that we can actually build a portfolio of businesses that we work with for the long term. And then you're on your journey with each of those businesses. So it isn't looking for the next gig. It's actually staying with them for quite a long time. And I know relationships that last up to 15 years. So then you get to a wonderful place where you've got the variety. You're working in your swim lane more often than not as well. You're not doing all those things that you get asked to do in a full-time job. It can actually be very, very fulfilling. Yeah. It's impressing on me, though, that when you talk about the C-suite and so on, that this might be something, particularly at the C-suite level, that's for someone later in their career. So they've had a long career. They've had all the stuff you're talking about, the minutia, the to-do lists, the relationship. And now they're looking for more meaning and purpose. And you get this variety. Am I got that right? Is this something that's for most people a little later in their career? So when we first started, which was, gosh, over 22, 23 years ago, it was like that. Actually I was the outlier because I was 35. So I'm not at the end of my career. But it was very much that in–because it was such a new industry then, the only people that could really afford to get that financial runway in place, which is the bit at the start when you're looking to build your portfolio, where it takes probably six months to a year to get going, it was those people who paid off their mortgages, who were financially secure, that could afford the time to move this way. And also, obviously, they have the skills from their corporate careers to do that. What we found since then, though, that it's become a much more viable alternative a lot younger. So in your early 40s now, I'm seeing lots of people, instead of wanting to go down the traditional corporate route, want to adopt a portfolio. And because the industry is growing and there are organizations out there that help people get going, it means that there's less of a gap, if you like, at the front end. So it's much more viable. And the other thing I might add is that what I'm seeing with Gen Z coming through, that new generation, is they're already adopting portfolio working much early in their careers. So I actually think those individuals are going to propagate this trend happening much earlier in careers too. And this really does fit in with the idea of anxiety as well, because a lot of anxiety comes from burnout. We get working, and you know in these high stress jobs, they can take a lot out of us. And having a portfolio approach means that I can take time off. There's a reason that you rotate soldiers off the front line. You don't leave them there forever. You bring them off to let them rest and recuperate. And it's the same sort of idea. And one of the ideas you get into in the book, and I notice you spent quite a lot of time on it, is an idea you call psychological ownership. You know, we talk a lot about psychological safety. Walk us through this idea, the concept of psychological ownership because I was looking at what would hold these relationships together in the absence of an employment contract. And actually, what I found is psychological ownership is feelings of ownership towards a job, towards an organisation, towards a group of people. And that actually we need in all forms of work, so employment and non-employment. We actually need it everywhere. It helps us knit together in a meaningful way. But it actually bridges that gap of not having that employment relationship. And there are some things that we need to have in our work lives that help us thrive. One is that there has to be a value exchange in existence. It has to work on both sides, and that can be cultural and commercial. It also needs to add to our identity. Our work needs to give us something. Maybe it enables us to be a specialist, a master, something like that. For organizations taking on a C-suite person, it enables them to say, I've got a CFO, I've got a CMO. They feel bigger, they feel more credible, adds to their identity. And then the third thing that needs to be in place is a community of like-minded people. We need, you know, we're social animals. We need to feel like we belong and we're really part of something. And we can have conversations that are enriching. And so again, that's something we, and this is what's brilliant about the fractional world and the access economy is when we're choosing, and I do see it as freedom of choice, we get freedom of choice who we want to work with and we can actively choose to work with organizations that meet our culture and our values. And actually, if you've got five businesses and one of them doesn't work out, you've diversified your risk massively. It's not the life-changing event that if you find out your employer isn't a match for you, suddenly your whole world changes. If you've got five businesses you work with and one doesn't quite work, you've got the room to move out of that and find a business that does work, which I think is incredibly useful. And you don't feel your whole life depends on one organization, which I think can reduce anxiety quite a lot around our work lives. Yeah, it is interesting. It really is a mindset, isn't it? Like you say, younger generations are already used to portfolio work, you know, I have a son, for example, he's got a full time job that he loves. And yet they encourage him to do a gig things on the side projects He's in the creative industry. He's already used to not having just one place where he spends his time. It's really interesting. I really like that you use a lot of evidence and evidence of success in your book. So walk us through a couple of your favorite success stories that have really worked with what you call the C-suite access. Have you got a good story for us? Yes. I mean, one of the first ones, interestingly, is one of my very first clients when I started, goodness knows how long ago. And I remember, it was such a new concept then, and I can remember the business owner sort of mulling it over. So quite an entrepreneurial, growing business, doing very well, but just did not, and I'm a CFO, so just did not have visibility of his numbers. So he was managing his cash and his stock but didn't really know why he was doing so well and where he should be putting his money in the future. And he turned around to me after meeting me and said, what's the catch? I just don't get it. It all seems too good to be true. I can work with you. You've got the experience I need. I pay as I go. You're there for as long as I want. I can't see the downside." I said to him, look, I don't actually think there is one. But if you don't like what I do for you, if you don't like the work, you can tell me to go away and you will have spent up to that point. But it's a good risk to take. Anyway, we worked with that business. I went into it. And what was really interesting was it had three revenue streams. Had no idea how they were performing. They were just doing well overall. It turned out one was doing brilliantly. One was sort of washing its face. The other one was terrible. And I was able to completely go in there and give him that insight. And then we could really build the strategy around how that business is going to perform. And it's gone from working in one country to 40 countries and working with us as an organization for over 12 years. So, you know, not me all the time. The other thing was, you know, it could work with, you know, different skill sets as it grows to make sure it gets the right skill set at the right time. So, yes, there wasn't a catch in that case. It was a really, you know, really good outcome. And yeah, and then people think, oh, no, I need you all the time here. I need you at my beck and call. It's like, it may take me an hour to call you back. I think you can survive. You know, yeah. And so. It's interesting that point, because what I found from my research is that the businesses that use this service know absolutely that they're sharing the C-suite services with others. But it needs to feel like, it needs to feel like they're not, and that you are their permanent, you know, their permanent forever C-suite person. And if the individuals doing this can give their businesses that feeling, then they really do last for a long time. This is, no, this is fascinating because you're talking, I mean, we, you know, many of the people who work with us are fractional with us, we're fractional for the people we work with and so, no, this is really resonating, it's really interesting. How do people learn more about your work, Sarah? Where would you send them? Okay, so connect with me on LinkedIn and also look at my business, the CFO Center, www.theCFOcenter.com, and also my website, sorrel.com. So there's plenty of resources there. My book, Strategy and Leadership of Service, that's on Amazon and Routledge. So yes, plenty of resources. And I really like to connect with individuals or professionals that are interested in this just to share stories and learn more because it's so new. Awesome. That's great. Well, get your crystal ball ready as we get close to finishing up here. So we've got the emergence of generative AI. All of our clients are talking about this. Now you're talking about the access economy. We've talked about the gig economy for years with younger people now, maybe people later in their careers. As you know, every company we go into that says, look, the pace of change is accelerating. So what should we all, whether we're early in our career, we're a leader, what should we anticipate for the next 5, 10, 20 years, as a future of work expert? What would you what would you say we need to be ready for and ready to do ourselves? Yeah, so, so for me, I feel that roles are unbundling, you know, roles with impressive titles and full-time nature are unbundling into work and jobs. So I think the job for life is going and the life of jobs is coming. And we will be fragmenting into activities that are done by humans, activities that are done by humans with machines and automation. I think that's definitely on the cards. We're already seeing it to some extent. And so firstly, I feel like we need, as humans, to upskill and be able to get familiar with the tools that are out there that we can use for the future to do our work tasks and elevate our skill sets up the value chain, if you like, and get rid of the routine tasks that can be done with the machines. And the skill's going to be in knowing how to use the tools and which tools are fit for purpose. In terms of organizations, I think then that means they're going to be having to get familiar and used to a wider workforce, having a blended workforce. So a workforce of perhaps a core of employees, and then other layers of wider workforce that could be fractional, part-time, job shares, contractors, that sort of thing, who are using, all of us using AI and tools. But realizing that this wider workforce is our workforce. I think this is the critical point. This blended workforce is one workforce that we've got to manage with one culture and is one team, and that these may be more temporary or contract or freelance workers can still do important work. Because I think in the past, we thought of those individuals as people that just do work, bodies that fill volume. But actually, these are the people that are going to be bringing innovation and skills into the corporates and the organizations, because these are the people that are being exposed to all the cutting edge tools and applications of them and accumulating that knowledge through the very nature of being freelance. So I think this is the thing that we really need to realize is this is how corporates and companies can innovate. They have to engage with these people, but they don't want to be employed. So therefore we have to merge them and think of them as one workforce. I think that's quite a challenge on the cards. Yeah. It's really interesting when you get a fractional CEO or a fractional CFO, they've got experience in other companies that they can bring to you. It's almost like getting all this best practice and all this benchmarking while you're not stuck in the same job. So yeah, let's finish up by talking about anxiety at work. Whenever we really get to this part, I always like to give our sponsor a little plug. It's MagicMind, it's Calm Your Mind, it's this really great natural drink that you take with. It's an easy up and an easy down. I always take it before we do these podcasts actually. It really helps me that focus and calm, it brings your mind into focus. There's nothing in the ingredients that says, boy, I'd never put that in my body. Anyway, for listening to our podcast, if you go to magicmind.com forward slash caustic and Elton 20, you get a 20% discount. They've got some wonderful other products as well. So treat yourself to Magic Mind. I love it and I know you will too. And on that note, Sarah, as we wrap up with anxiety, how can our listeners and leaders and individual contributors stem fears about this new world, this fractional. You've talked about the future and how we're gonna do it. People are still gonna be anxious. So if you had one or two things you'd tell them about what's coming to calm their fears, reduce their anxiety, what would you share with them? Yes, I mean, I totally understand that. I think we're all wondering more about the future, me included. I mean, the way I've tackled it is to educate myself. So what I've found is to actually test a measure, to try out the tools that are available, immerse myself, and learn. And actually, it demystifies things somewhat when you do that. It makes me feel more knowledgeable. I learn more. I've tested things out. And I can understand what I can control and what I can't. I've always been a big fan of that is sort of control what's under my control and try and leave the rest for someone else to worry about. And by immersing myself and educating myself, I found to be much more, you know, much more relaxed about the future, because I actually think, you know, it makes me feel more empowered with some knowledge. So that's what I would say to people, is start educating yourself. Excellent, love that. Okay, as we close now, last question and we'll let you go, is what do you do yourself? Self-care tactics, we always ask successful, busy people like yourself, what do you do each day to help center yourself and help you thrive? Yeah, so I'm a big fan of meditation. I've established that as a practice for myself and it's really helped me understand how to let go. So that also helps with your previous question about how to not get too worried because I've been able to, through meditation, to be in nature. So I make sure I'm outside. I make sure I do things for me, for self-care. So things that replenish me and nourish me as an individual. And it enables me to be more present, to acknowledge my feelings. And I also find, as I acknowledge, you know, the feelings that I have, whether that's being scared or angry or whatever, it definitely helps for them to dissipate in that way. So I've done quite a lot of work on mindset and things like that, which have helped me enormously to stand back from things and really put them in perspective. Obviously, I don't get it right all the time. Nobody does. You know, I thought for sure you were gonna say, what really calms me down is getting another degree. I don't have enough. Well, listen, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much, Sarah. You've been a wonderful guest. I hope that people will look you up on LinkedIn and your website, sarahdodd.com, and the wonderful book, Strategy and Leadership as Service, available everywhere. We hope you sell a million. Thanks for finding the time. Well, thanks for having me. Appreciate it Well chess really interesting fascinating subject fascinating guest on You know the the you know, we don't have to sit on the bench all our careers and wait That's a different way of thinking about work. That's coming, isn't it? Yeah I mean the old adage right from the mailroom to the boardroom, you know, and you had a 50-year career. I mean, my dad worked for the same company for, I think, over 40 years. I know your dad did, too. That was loyalty and that was the roadmap to comfortable retirement and fulfilling work. It really is a mindset shift on, look, I can do fractional things. It was really interesting to me that she went right away to purposeful and meaningful work that people are looking for that. If you've got a full-time gig, you might get trapped with that bad boss or a company that's taking a left turn and you don't feel like your work is meaningful or purposeful. The other thing that I took away was this idea of the benefit to the company of having a fractional C-suite person is the knowledge that they bring from the other companies They're working with and she said look it does feel like you know You're the only guy the only client and yet we know you have other clients and to be able to bring that diversity Of experience is also a huge benefit. Well Well, it is because we work with I mean who's producing for us It's our amazing Brent Glenn and he's fractional for us. And yet when we call on Brent he's there for us. Christy Lawrence who is our booking agent, she works with other people but we feel like they work just for us. And so this works. But we're also, as I mentioned, we also do that for the clients we work with. When we're on retainer for somebody on their, when we do executive coaching, when we consult on their culture. We are there for them. Remember one day when, remember when we were back in our corporate days, Jess and Dave Ulrich, our good friend, HR guru Dave Ulrich came in and he asked us a question. He says, who do you think's happier? He says, people who work for a corporation, have stability and that, or people who work on their own and have to worry about their next meal. And we work for a corporation, so we said, the corporate guys. And he said, no, he says vastly more, there are much people are happier when they're on their own and they have autonomy and freedom. And boy, you know, does that prove out? So if we have a whole economy built on that, it could be really interesting. Yeah, the right people at the right time, you know, fractional C-suite. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. And clearly she said, you know, the younger generation is already in a portfolio mode. You know, my son, Garrett, he does a lot of video production. He's doing it for the company he works with full-time. And they encourage him to do side gigs because it keeps their creative juices flowing and brings in other experiences. You know, speaking of juices, Adrian, I know I'm a little maniacal about this. Magic Mind is kind of a magic juice for me, where it does calm me down. Of course, we have a wonderful relationship. They've got some wonderful products that help you sleep. The one that I really like is the Magic Mind. Seven hours, easy up, easy down, all natural ingredients. Go to magicmind.com forward slash Gossigan and Elton, 20, get a 20% discount. I've started to hoard it, Adrian. It's a little, you know, I've got, I want to make sure I never run out of here. Kind of like that toilet paper shortage in 2020, you never want to be out of your mind. Actually, I'm still in the pandemic mindset. But anyway, yeah, I think Sarah really brought to us that future of work, what does it look like? And not just for the older established people. I thought it was really interesting to see younger people were coming into this and figuring it out, the diversity, the engagement, the stimulation, the purpose. Yeah, I thought it was great. That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, good. We had a great visit, another great guest here. We want to thank Brent Klein for putting all this together for us, our producer. We want to thank Christy Lawrence who helps us find and book amazing guests, and to all of you who listened in. If you like the podcast, please share it. We'd also love you to visit our website, thecultureworks.com for some free resources to help you and your team culture thrive. Yeah, and buy the book, Anxiety at Work. There's lots of great resources there as well, and we love speaking to audiences around the world, whether it's virtual or in person on topics like culture, teamwork, resilience, reducing anxiety. Give us a call. We'd love to talk to you about your event as well. Adrian, I'll give you the last word as almost all. Hey, if anybody's still listening, we appreciate you hanging on to the end here. Maybe you just couldn't reach the button as you were jogging or whatever you're doing, but we want to thank you for joining us. And until next time, we wish you the best of mental health.