Listening--for Many--is the Closest Thing to Love

Public discourse in America and around the world seems to be at a breaking point. Hello, I'm Chester Elton and this is my co-author and dear friend, Adrian Gostick. Well, thanks, Ches. Yeah, surveys suggest that we're more divided than ever, and that hostility can affect our well-being. Our guest today is an expert who can help us understand how people from different groups can understand each other and maybe get along better, reducing our anxiety. As always, we hope the time you spend with us will help reduce the stigma of anxiety at work and in your personal life. And with us is our new friend, Juliana Tafur. She is the director of the Greater Good Science Center's Bridging Differences Program at UC Berkeley. The program's mission is to bridge political and cultural divides using resources rooted in science. In her past career, Juliana spent more than a decade creating spaces through film and mediated dialogue to bridge differences of race and culture, politics, socioeconomic status, and more. Juliana's work combines research on the science of human connection with lived experience, making her insights both practical and deeply personal. Juliana, we are delighted to have you on the podcast. Thanks for finding the time. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. Well, for those who don't know much about it, tell us about the Greater Good Science Center at Berkeley. It sounds like an amazing initiative, amazing place. Many of us have read the articles that come out of the Greater Good Science Center, and then especially maybe your Bridging Differences program. What's your mission there? Yeah, absolutely. So at the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley, we study the psychology, sociology, and neuroscience of well-being, what we like to call the science of a meaningful life. And then we teach skills that foster a more resilient, more compassionate society. And under our Bridging Differences program, we provide research-based strategies for dialogue, for relationships, and for understanding across group lines. So in other words, we primarily translate the science and provide a bridge between research and practice so people can walk away with tools that are actionable, that actually make a difference in helping them get along with family members, colleagues, and the wider world, community members, neighbors, right? We need it. Yeah, you know, it's so interesting. We just got through Thanksgiving here in the US, right? And that table has become quite contentious. You know, you're building bridges, and I think a lot of those bridges are being burned to the ground as we speak. I've never changed the subject so fast in my life, yeah. Hey, what's Trump gonna do with social security? Hey, does anybody know where the mashed potatoes are? Just change the subject. And probably Julianna's going to go the better way. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, I do want to say that there's research supporting that Thanksgiving dinners are a whole hour shorter in families where members had differing political views. So you are part of a whole set of people who are experiencing the same thing. Yeah, yeah, or not having Thanksgiving dinner at all. I would say that's the best case scenario, right? Shorter, but they're still trying. But yeah, obviously ruptured relationships and friendships, etc. are also on the rise given political differences. Well, you mentioned that it was the 2016 election in your TEDx talk that really spurred this work. And since then we've had the 2020 election and the 2024 election. And it just seems like, you know, many of us feel more polarized than ever before. Research shows that three out of four Americans want to live a less divided and want to live in a more united country. So give us some practical tools that you just talked about. How can we bridge our differences in the face of division and all the civil unrest that we're seeing? Yeah, absolutely. And I love you pointing out that data because it's not like we're hopelessly divided. And I really think it's important to equip people with the skills because we know that people do value diverse perspectives and believe it's important to hear different political views even when they don't agree with all of them. And people also do desire a shift in political discourse. They see the importance of us moving beyond this political hostility and divisiveness and think that moving forward in connection and collaboration across differences is a step forward. So we do know that both things are true, right? We're divided, but people want to do something about it. So we're meeting them where they're at, and we're trying to provide these science-based skills to make it easier for them to connect with others, with empathy, with respect, even when you see the world differently. So I can talk about forever. I can talk about some of the skills in our toolkit. We actually have a Bridging Differences playbook with 14 science-based skills. And today, maybe I'll just uplift a few of those. So I'll start off with kind of seeing the person and not the label as a great way to begin when you're having a hard time connecting with someone. And it means seeing the unique qualities and the individual traits that people have, rather than seeing them as a category. Obviously, we're talking politics, Republican or Democrat, but it could be any category, right? Right. And what you do is actually you're kind of hacking your brain and you don't even need to be in dialogue with the other person to do this. So when you see the person and you want to jump into they are this or they are that you would take a step back and you would question yourself. Do they prefer broccoli or carrots? Are they a dog person or a cat person? And what happens is that you trick your brain into seeing them as human, into seeing them as a unique person with unique preferences, and it allows you to skip the immediate kind of box or categorization. And like I said, you don't have to actually know the answers to these questions. Just thinking about them can shift the way that you see them. Isn't that interesting? You know, you also talked about know their story, get to know their story. I love the way, and you dealt with some really heavy issues, you know, guns, abortion, politics, and so on. When you said, look, this person could be pro this or pro that because of their backstory, because of the experience they had. And when you know people's backstory, I think to your point, it makes them more human. And you go, okay, now I get how you got there. That wasn't my experience. My experience led me to the opposite view. Is knowing the backstory really another key? Is that one of your tools in the 14? Oh, absolutely. So even the seeing the person, not the label, has a portion of it that when people are invited to practice, then, OK, once you've overcome the initial kind of stereotyping or bias that you had, in your own mind, do you want to try to learn something more personal about them? Do you actually want to engage with them to learn more about their job, about their family, about their hobbies and research does tell us that discovering personal details about those who seem different from us does make us feel more warmth and connection towards them, even if they are from the other political party. So there's that, but I would say that what you're naming there on like really getting to know the story has more to do with both perspective taking and compassionate listening. So it's a mix of those two skills, which are also part of our Bridging Differences playbook and are extremely important. So maybe I'll start off with perspective taking, but we could also start with compassionate listening, right? Like it's not, these are not sequential. So how do you get to perspective taking? Do you do it on your own first and then engage in listening? Or do you listen and through listening arrive at perspective taking? There isn't a right way because perspective taking, like seeing the people or seeing the person and not the label, you can also do on your own and then engage, which is also great, right? If you're not fully ready to engage yet, just kind of centering yourself and thinking of the person that you're having a hard time understanding and reflecting on them and why they might hold the view that they hold begins to provide you with clues and allows you some space to take a step back and really connect with them and what their experience is, which is clearly different from yours, but perhaps not less relevant, right? And from that place of shared empathy, you are more open to begin the conversation because you are starting the conversation from the place of, I understand that your lived experience is different from mine and I want to connect to that story. What is the story under the story, right? There's always a story under the story and that really opens you up to be able to listen from a very different place. And one last thing. One of the things you talked about was this idea of shared identity too, finding that shared identity together, right? And you know, I know I've, and sometimes when you're in this one with a family member or somebody who's kind of worked up, you, maybe this is redirecting a little bit, but you might talk about, oh, remember when we took that trip? And you completely changed this, but you're going into something that you've shared together. So how do you do this when somebody maybe is a little worked up about something? How do you find that shared identity together? Yeah, yeah, well, shared identities is another really powerful skill because it allows us to find what transcends a divide. What is it that we have in common that we are both either passionate about or a group that we both belong to? So it can be, like you said, maybe a hobby that we enjoy, like we enjoy taking trips. And there is a trip that we took together because we are relatives. And that's a huge shared identity. Or we belong to the same school board, PTO. Or we're part of the same neighborhood association, and we care about beautifying our community. Whatever the shared identity is, oftentimes it can help us transcend differences because we have a mission or a goal in common that we can kind of join forces on, right? And that also ties into a different skill, which is finding shared goals or common goals, right? But through a shared identity. So we do know from research that finding things we have in common with people who we might perhaps see as the other opens us up to greater kindness and understanding. And there's this great study from the UK that involved Manchester United fans. I don't know if either of you are soccer fans. My son is a huge Manchester United fan, actually. Oh, great. So he would like to study. So they were brought together, and they were encouraged to think about their allegiance to Manchester United, very much like in-group Manchester United, as fans, reasons for supporting the team, and feelings about the team's success, et cetera. And then they were sent through a parking lot and they encounter someone in a parking lot who looked like they needed help. And in that case where they were just made to think about their own team, they were four times more likely to help the person in need if the person was wearing a Manchester United fans. But instead of thinking of their inner identity as Manchester United fans, they were made to think of their identity as soccer fans in general. Things like the meaning of being a football fan and shared experiences with other football fans, et cetera. And the same thing. They sent them through a parking lot. A person needed help. And when they encountered the person in need, they helped the person wearing the jersey of the rival team just as much as they helped the person with the Manchester United jersey. So it just goes to show how that shared identity of soccer fans, as opposed to the inner, smaller identity of Manchester United fans, how that made them simply kinder and allowed them to spread. Yeah, that is fascinating. You know, Adrienne and I, we've both lived in the United States for a long time now, but we both grew up in Canada. And of course, when it comes to being nice, there's nobody nicer than Canadians. However, if you were to pit them against each other as rival hockey fans, a fight would break out. You know, so we can really relate to that. Isn't that fascinating? I love that. As our team fans, we're less likely to help, but as sports fans, we would jump in right away. Well, and it also makes you think, you know, what happens in our country with narrow group identities versus broader group identities and how the narrative of who's part of our in-group and who we support really plays into people's heads. Yeah, yeah. I've often thought that too, is that you know whatever political party that I don't agree with I know most of them would stop and help me if I was broken down in front of their house. And so that goodness is still within there. It's how do we change our perspective and bring us together versus making us all feel like we're enemies. Hey, by the way, how do people learn more about your work, Juliana? Where would you send them? Yeah, well, we have the Greater Good magazine. So that's a great place to start. I know you mentioned that at the top of the show, where a bunch of articles on bridging differences and several of our other topic and content areas live. And that is greatergood.berkeley.edu. That's where people can access the magazine and most of our content. Then we have an Instagram page for our Bridging Differences program, and that can be found at ggscbridgingdifferences. Let me just make sure that's okay. I believe so. And then we also at the GGSC have an Instagram page, a Facebook page, a LinkedIn page. Yes, yes. My RRTG. So it's not hard to find is what you're saying. Okay, got it. Not hard to find, absolutely not hard to find. But I do want to invite folks, you know, looking for kind of these science-based skills for bridging differences to join our Campaign for Connection seven-day challenge. It's a challenge that we launched leading up to the elections just as a tool for people, and then it's going to keep running. It's going to keep running because we've seen that people truly want it. People really want to be able to feel that they can do something about the division and the polarization that they're seeing in their own life, in their, you know, personal circles, workplaces, et cetera. And then when they sign up, they get a daily skill for seven days, inviting them to practice. So it's a really nice way to get kind of the science in videos, in illustrations, and in small dosages, if you will, that are more digestible and inviting you to reflect, to visualize, to journal in a way that feels, I think, manageable and action-oriented. And seven days is enough. That's amazing. All this division over the last 12 years and seven days. And I get that it's a thought starter, right? You've got to start somewhere. And so seven days. Do you have a seven-day follow-up or a four-day follow-up? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, their follow-up? Well, I would say the follow-up is like downloading our whole Bridging Differences playbook with the 14 science-based skills. We also have an edX course, which has the 14 science based skills, grouped in a way that is also digestible. And that is free for people to take. Or if you want to get a certificate, you pay a fee. But that's also available for people. So yeah, we will meet you where you are. We gotcha. I know you're looking for a PhD level, Jess. Yeah, I'm just thinking I'm probably going to need more than seven days. So I'm glad there's more than just that. But I want you to give my friend, Adrian Gostick here a little help. Adrian travels the world, you know, he's lived in different countries, he's experimented with different languages. In our work, we've presented in over 40 countries around the world. He lives in a rural area where a lot of people. I'll show you out my window. There's not many people there. There's more turkeys than people. Yeah. And many of his neighbors have never been out of the county, let alone the state or the country. How do you help him find common ground with his neighbors and work that out? Because they are like socially and you know, worldly, very, very, very different. Well, Adrian, tell me what do you have in common with your neighbors? I think it comes back to what you said really struck a chord is that, you know, we definitely want the community to be better. And as we talk about that, sometimes definitely we kind of get to, you know, kind of into something national or something. And they assume that I believe a certain thing, because I live here, and yet I may think very differently. But yeah, the assumption is you think like me, and because you seem like a rational, normal person. I'm going to tell you, Juliana, the only thing Adrian has in common with his neighbors is the zip code. So yeah, we want to make the place a better place, and we want to be good and kind people maybe you know some of them got it okay I had a neighbor once tell me that kind is a four-letter word so not everybody but yeah oh look at a pretty tough you know and I you know very tough Yeah. What are you hoping for, Adrian? Like, do you want to have conversations? Oh, absolutely. You know, and I do. I have lots of conversations with folks around me and I do more listening than talking, but yeah, no, I'd love to have that kind of connection. And really, honestly, I know that, hey, if the power goes out and we're being attacked by zombies, they'll have my back, you know? Which I'm not really expecting, but you never know. So yeah, I think that connection, having each other's backs, that is important to me, I think, to have that feeling. Yeah. Got it. So you're looking to feel like you belong to the community, in other words. Is that accurate? That's accurate, yeah. I think, honestly, I mentioned this briefly, but it sounds like you've tried listening. What oftentimes happens with listening, which people don't really realize, is that you end up almost disarming the other person, for lack of a better word. Science does show us that our conversation partners, when we listen to them, we make them more open-minded and we make them less defensive and less focused on their self-interests. So I would hope that you're seeing that in the way that you listen to them, kind of like with an open mind and open heart, and where they truly feel seen and heard and loved, quite frankly, because there's a really wonderful quote that says, being listened to is so close to being loved that for the average person, they are almost indistinguishable. So if you are listening so intently that the other person feels loved, you're really getting at kind of the essence of what compassionate listening is. And hopefully you are through that making them be open and receptive to what you are saying. And hopefully a bond will form. If that is not happening, then I would say finding a shared goal. So you said the community to be better. You want the community to be better, right? Like, how is it that you want the community to be better? Because working towards a shared goal that is benefiting everyone, you are most likely able to put aside those differences and develop a relationship where with that trust, you can then maybe talk about your differences. So that could be a different way, right? Maybe you start with the goal and then through the goal, a friendship develops and through that friendship, you are able to listen more and then your neighbors will be able to say that they have a friend who is such and such but a good guy. I love that. You know, our podcast is about anxiety at work. This has been a great conversation. Give us one of your tactics that you have found that reduces people's anxiety. Let me try to say that again. Give us one tactic that you found has reduced people's anxieties when they start to talk about these difficult issues to lower their anxiety. Yeah, absolutely. I think the best tactic for that, that you could do kind of like in the spur of a moment, if you're not doing kind of like a regular mindfulness practice, which is, you know, has benefits and is shown to improve and reduce people's anxiety. While you're having a tense and difficult conversation, there's a technique we like that's called self-distancing that allows you to gain clarity in tense moments and It's pretty easy it involves obviously it requires practice like everything else, but it's not it doesn't seem like rocket science It involves viewing your own thoughts feelings and even your behaviors from an outsider's perspective so for example you would see yourself from either a third or a second person perspective. And once your emotions spike, you would distance yourself from your immediate feelings. And instead of thinking, I am so frustrated, you would shift to a third person perspective. And you would say, fill in the blank your name, Juliana feels frustrated. Why does Juliana feel this way? And then the idea is that the mental shift helps you observe your reactions with more clarity. That's really helpful. That's really helpful. Well, you know, it's really interesting. One of the things that I always do before our podcast, and this is a shameless plug, by the way, I take Magic Mind, our sponsor. I love this, it's reclaim your brain. But you would love this because it says, sharper mind, lower stress, calm energy. And it is really interesting. It gives you like seven hours of calm energy. And I find it really does work. I take it in the morning. I take it before we do podcasts. And because you're listening to our wonderful podcast, if you put in magicmind.com forward slash Gostick and Elton forward slash 20, you get a 20% discount. So Juliana, there's another thing to put in your toolbox, is Magic Mind, I swear by it, I love it, I'm sure you would too. And on that note, we would like to really thank you for being on the show. I always give Adrian the last goodbye to our guests, so Adrian, what advice do you have or what kind of goodbyes do you have for them? Well, first off, yeah, Juliana, thank you so much for spending time with us. I hope it was fun for you. We had learned a lot, that we got a lot of takeaways for our folks. Thank you so much for joining us today and we appreciate you spending a little time with us, helping us understand how we can bridge divides. Thank you, Adrian. Let me know if you're able to put some of these skills in practice. I'll connect again in like five months and let us know how it went. I love it, we're not even guinea pig. This is great, I love it. Okay, why don't you sign up for the seven day challenge. I'll do it. And practice it and let me know how it's going. Don't do it. You're amazing, Juliana. Thank you so much. Cheers. Thank you both. So, Adrian, I mean, such a timely topic, right? We've just come through the election, we've just come through Thanksgiving, you know, families are divided, you know, states are divided, and it's just such an interesting topic. I loved when, you know, the research showed, look, three out of four people want a more united country. They want less stress. And yet, never have we been more divided. So I'm really curious what were two or three of your big takeaways. Yeah, so many. It's like, wow, first off, research shows Thanksgiving dinner's an hour shorter. An hour shorter. Because, and I noticed this too, is like, I'm just waiting for somebody to say something awkward and it's like, uh, and I'm ready to change the subject. I'm so nervous just being around a big group that I know have very different views on some things. And so, but, but as, as this three out of four says, we don't want to be that way. You know, we want to find that shared common ground, which we all have. Yeah. It seems so often that people are looking to be offended. They're waiting for that trigger moment to jump in. I really appreciated her whole take on bridging differences and this idea of listening and distancing yourself and saying, why is Chester so angry? Take a step back and take that layer away. It's interesting, when I was first looking at her work and it said self-distancing, I thought she meant like get up and leave the room. No? Which is probably not a bad idea. And unfortunately, we're doing that, yeah. Yeah. I also found the study with the Manchester United football team really interesting, isn't it? When we're Manchester United fans, we're less likely to help a rival. When we think of ourselves as football fans or soccer fans, as we say in the States, we're more likely to help. I thought that was a really interesting shift, finding that common ground. And I think I've seen similar studies on different kind of perspectives where, yeah, when we break down, when researchers break down who those others are and we see them as, I can say, in a way shared, that all of a sudden, we feel a connection to them. And I think that's kind of getting what she's getting at with this idea of shared identity as well. Look, we're all, man, we're all soccer slash football fans. We're all, we all have our own teams, but we're all passionate about it and we love the game. Great, that's a shared identity, you know, and you find some sharedness in that. Well, likewise, with the people in our families, our neighbors, etc. You know, what are the things we can connect with? And unfortunately, as we know, inevitably, somebody may say, yeah, but what about... Yeah, but what about... Kindly bring it back. Yeah, it's like I love hockey, but I hate Ranger fans. You know, I mean... Well, they love hockey too, right? Or they wouldn't be Ranger fans. You know, it is interesting when we can find that common ground. I really appreciated when she talked about when you know their story, you know, where did they come from? Like, how did you come to that opinion on whatever the trigger is, right? Whether it's guns or politics or immigration. Because the backstory tells you a lot. Say, well, that's not my experience. That was your, and now, because of your backstory, because of yours, now I kind of get it. I can have a little more empathy for you and what you're doing. I thought that was- And she's pushing us even further to say it's not just empathy, it's love. I mean, how tough, but I mean, you and I, we're church going guys. That's what we're taught, right? Is to love and it's hard sometimes. And yet here's a scientific organization at UC Berkeley saying, that's what you got to get to. And so you know what we learned for what we've been all taught for for years and years is exactly right. It's not just putting up with them, it's not just being empathetic, it's loving them. I had a funny experience with a friend he says you know you and I are so different like we don't agree on literally anything and And yet you always tell me you love me. Why? I go, I'm commanded to. It's part of my favorite. Well, hopefully it's more than just a command. That's a great place to start. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully it's in our hearts too. But yeah, that's good for you. Yeah, anyway, well listen, it was a lot of great takeaways. And I always like to end with a shout out to our sponsor, Magic Mind. I really am a big fan of this product. It's all natural. There's nothing in there. If you read the ingredients, you'd go, ooh, jeez, I don't want to ingest that, you know? And it really does calm my mind. I've found that when I'm under a lot of stress, like, you know, Adrian, you and I present all of the world, and I will often, the morning of, make sure that I take my Magic Mike. I just love that it says it's a mental performance shot, right, reclaim your brain, all that, you know, that anxiety and all that stuff really does seem to calm down. It's a quick little shot. You can sign up. And again, because you're listening, go to magicmind.com forward slash Gostiganelton, 20, and you'll get a 20% discount, which is always nice to get. But I find that when we do these podcasts, it calms me down. Your very presence, Adrian, my dear friend, we've been friends for forever, it seems like. And isn't that interesting that when you're around people that you really do love and admire, that lowers your anxiety too. I want a little shout out to you, Adrian. You calm me down. You reduce my anxiety and I appreciate that. Thanks. It's funny. Our mentor, Marshall Goldsmith, sometimes does the opposite for us. He makes us more anxious because he challenges us and you got that this morning with Marshall challenging you in a meeting. It was good, right? Yeah. It was great. No, really. It was great. That's awesome. Thank you to somebody who challenges our thinking always, it's our producer, Brent Klein. Brilliant. And so is Christy Lawrence, who helps us find amazing guests. And thank you to all of you who listened in. If you like the podcast, please share it. Also, we'd love you to visit thecultureworks.com for some free resources for you and your team. And if you like to have people come and speak on, you know, culture and gratitude and anxiety in the workplace, resilience, please give us a call. We do it in person, we do it virtually, and we literally do it all around the world. Give us a call, we'd like to talk to you about your event. And of course, please pick up a copy of our book, Anxiety at Work, it was a bestseller. And we found that, you know, people do tell us that, you know what, two or three of those things really helped me not only helped me at work It helped me and my family our growing practice of executive coaching is there too So if you need some one-on-one help, please, you know get a hold of Christy visit us at the culture works calm We'd be honored to be your executive coach as well. So Adrian and that pretty much wraps it up. What would you say? Hey, thanks everybody for joining us until next time. We wish you the best of mental health.