Our guest today says many of us blind ourselves to our true motivations. Hi, I'm Chester Elton and with me is my dear friend and co-author, Adrian Gostick. Well, thanks, Chester. We're going to spend the next 30 minutes helping leaders see themselves more clearly to better navigate the complex human interactions we all face and maybe create a little bit more positive change in our teams. As always, we hope the time you spend with us will help. As always, we hope the time you spend with us will help reduce the stigma of anxiety at work and in your personal life. And with us is our new friend, Desmond Lomax, co-author of the fourth edition of the bestselling book, Leadership and Self-Perception. Desmond is a clinical mental health therapist who worked for 20 years in the field of law enforcement and corrections. He's now a senior consultant at the Arbinger Institute. And I have to say, we were talking before the podcast started, I have a lot of experience with leadership and self-perception. It's paid tremendous dividends in my family. I can't tell you how excited I was to talk to you today, Desmond, about the fourth edition of Leadership and Self-Deception. So welcome to the podcast. Oh, Tess, thank you. And Adrian, thank you so much. You know, it's a privilege. Co-auth is a strong word. There is a collective of us in the Arbinger Institute that collaborate to put this thing together. And it has been my privilege to contribute in a way. The Arbinger Institute, we brought so many different people together to contribute in a way to really create a meaningful story that is relatable, meaningful, and actionable, which is very important. We're not used to the humility on this show, Desmond. I don't know if this is going to fly. Oh, goodness, I love it. I love it. I love it. No, thanks so much. Yeah. And boy, it's fun to see somebody who says, oh, look, I'm just part of the collective. And we are. Isn't every great thing nowadays solved by a team? Every great issue is solved by a team. And that's what you're talking about here is how to lead a great team. So for those who haven't read the book before, and I don't know who's still around who hasn't, but if you haven't, you need to go get a copy of this new edition, tell us a little bit about this idea of self-deception in leadership and why that's so important to identify. Well, it's fascinating. I always say good people are often blind to their impact on others. A lot of times the idea is if I work hard and I'm doing my best, then generally good things are happening Self-deception is the problem of not knowing that I've created problems for others and because of that they're resisting us in some way and so so really When we look at things like self-deception, it's critical that we overcome them because a lot of times this idea that because I'm doing my best and I'm working hard and I'm doing everything right in quotes, that everything is supposed to work out, then I'm confused because I'm not having the impact I want. Self-deception makes me feel that, oh, because I'm doing everything right, because I'm mission focused, then my impact is generally good. And I think that is the overarching concept and the overarching challenge is that often we are blind to our impact and self-deception is at the heart of it. So how does that hurt our professional growth and development? I mean, we're in this bubble, we're doing good stuff, we're getting good results. How does that self-deception hurt us? Well, it's fascinating. When I am self-deceived, the challenge is that the people around me, I don't fully understand. I see them as problems or objects or vehicles for me When I'm self-deceived the things I do and how I do them they bring results and that's the only thing that matters The challenge is is that I could have so many more results if I would simply be more awake More alive to the humanity of the people around me Which is why like one of our mottos is is we bring humanity to the workplace the Arbinger Institute. That's interesting. You see people as objects to an end. Because I remember in the book, you're right that it's important to see others clearly in relationships and in our teams. So what kind of conflicts can arise when we fail to see ourselves and others clearly, as you say? And how do we see each other in a more clear way? I always tell a funny story when we're teaching this training. I have somebody, they're an amazing football fan, and they love a particular team. Let's just say the Washington Commanders. They're a big Washington Commanders team. And I'm like, okay, okay, you love the Commanders. I have a gift for you. We've been friends, we've been talking. I'm your supervisor, I've been leading, I brought a gift and they open it up and it's a Dallas Cowboys And to me that's at the heart of Like what the challenge is is that I might see you in some ways in which you meet my beneficial goals But because I don't understand you fully. It's this principle of giving you things or connecting with you with things that are not things you would rather connect with, are not things that have true meaning to you. Because of my self-deception, I see shades of people. And the challenge is that they see shades of me as well. Well, the trouble is nobody likes the Cowboys, so you picked a kind of interesting example. Except Cowboy fans, I guess. Nobody likes them means everyone likes them. That's the challenge. Yeah, yeah. You know, isn't that interesting you talked about giving that stuff. I am a big sports fan and I follow everything. If they're keeping score, I want to know who wins, right? And so I would assume that everybody kind of likes sports. And people would wear baseball caps with the logo on it. And I fell into the trap so many times that I now say, so do you cheer for that team or was that a cap that you just found? You know, because we'd go into people's offices, see all this golf stuff, say, oh, you're a big golfer. And he goes, no, this isn't my office. And I'd have spent half an hour talking about golf. You know, it's just so stupid, right? I'll take it one step further. So my wife runs marathons and I collect marathon shirts. Oh, okay. So, you know what I'm saying? So I'll be wearing like this marathon shirt and people are like, hey, did you run the marathon? I'm like, I'm wearing the shirt. And my wife who spent three to six months preparing, she just rolls her eyes like, good gracious, really? Like really, you're gonna wear that marathon shirt? Like you just, I'm like, I collect them. They're like two or three dollars. They're like sweat, sweat, sweat, you know? You know, the year before Claret shirt? But yeah, the idea is that if I'm not alive to another person, I'm seeing shades of people. These assumptions are just dampening our capacity to have innovation. Like when I don't see you, I don't have the capacity to bring the best out of you, which is just very, you know, so self-deception really, when we look at it from the lens of being a leader, it really complicates things because I'm just working with the parts of you that are either doing what I want you to do or working with the parts of you that are resisting me. And those are the only two things I'm focused on. And I rarely see the full scope of who you are, which gives me the opportunity to be more innovative around you. Excellent. You know, I know you worked in corrections for years, and I just recently visited this brand new prison in Utah. And I highly recommend that if you want to get scared straight, go to a high security prison. And just to get into the prison is such an ordeal, right? Let alone should anybody try to get out. The thing about the leadership and self-deception, I know you do a lot about relating the book's concepts to redemption and second chances. And the recidivism in the penal system is sky high. In Utah, they told me it was at 65%, which is above the nation's average. So how do you use this principle for people that have, let alone in normal life, but in a correctional situation where it can be seen as a reset rather than a punishment? Does that make sense? Chester, you know, I retired as the director of community programming for the state of Utah. Like I literally, this was my job. We need to have a part two to this where you can call me back and we can talk about strictly about this. I can talk about this for hours. Just to be very brief, one of the challenges we have with people who have been incarcerated or are currently incarcerated is that we don't see them as people. They're inmates, they're people. You know, I was a therapist in a prison for many years. If someone said, what's the number one challenge? It's the belief that the average person who's incarcerated cannot change. And it's a system built upon that belief. The majority of the workers that work there, if you sit there, let's say one of the most, the treatment sections of the prison, like where people like me, like therapists work, and you sit there and talk to all the correctional officers, and you do a survey. Do you believe the people in this facility are changing, or do you believe they're wasting their time? I guarantee the majority of the people that are working with these incarcerated people believe they can't change. Society as a whole believes they can't change. There are systematic laws that say you can't even live in certain neighborhoods if you have a felony. And so until we start changing our outlook and our mindset, there are places in Europe where they say, hey, Jim went to prison, it looks like a college campus, he's going to come back as a better human. It's a mindset change. It's just our mindset regarding people and rehabilitation. We don't have the right mindset to see the improvements we want to see. You know, yeah, it's so interesting you say that. We were there with a program based on kindness. It's this new movement, One Kind Act today. And I talked to a guy who I guess took over from you, Brian Taylor, who's been in the system for like 30 years and counseling. And it was so interesting, we did get to meet some of the people in the prison. I'm trying to avoid the word inmate, people in the prison. And the opportunities that they really were offering to get your GED, to get an education, to get off of drugs, to get clean. And their big message was, to your point, a reset. That this is a time for you to reset and build bonds outside of the facility so that when you get released, you have an opportunity. I couldn't agree with you more. I was terrified going into that facility. And I came out actually quite encouraged that there were programs, and we were able to talk to some of the people in the facility. And they were saying, I'm absolutely taking advantage of this time. I'm getting my education. I'm getting clean. I'm making connections. It was very encouraging. And yet you look at the numbers, they're still a long way from where they want to go. So I really appreciate your input on that. It was a really deeply emotional experience for me to be in that facility. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't get any easier even when you work there. My principle in life was as soon as those doors got closed behind me and I was walking out of that prison, I expressed like I was freed every day. Like even I worked there, I'm like freedom! Like I'm walking. But that's how I lived my life. Like to this day. Like I don't take freedom for granted. And I can't stress enough, Chester, you're on point. Like there are a lot of good people trying to do good things. And I'm not negating that. I'm just saying the system overall is discouraging. And with every program, I fear there's somebody who really creates difficulties. And so I think that's definitely, definitely a challenge, but I am hopeful, just like you are, because I've worked in Utah for 20 years. They're amazing people doing amazing work. And I think they'll turn that recidivism around at some point. Awesome, good to know. Well, tell us about your work now, Desmond. How do people learn more about Arbinger and you? Oh, so yeah, Arbinger is a consulting organization as well as an education organization. Clearly we have a leadership and self-deception best-selling book, fourth edition. That's a good place to start. Just go ahead and read that book. We have arbinger.com. I spend my days training organizations on how to humanize the workplace, on conflict resolution, on coaching. I'll spend my time doing keynotes across the country. You know, I joke, I work for, you know, I might be working with a funeral association one day, the Department of Defense another day, and a Fortune 500 company the Friday. You know, like, so there's definitely a place for humanizing the workplace in so many different arenas. And I just have the privilege as a, they call me a master facilitator or senior consultant. I have a privilege of going to these organizations, sharing, making sure there's a direct application to what they want to accomplish. And I think it's super helpful to be able to do that. So give us, so when you're out doing a training or giving a speech, give us, maybe when people come up to you afterwards and they say, you know, Desmond, that one tip you gave me was so great. I'm going to start that today. Give me one or two of those that you feel like could help our listeners today on how you apply the tools of self-deception and relationship building. Sure. Some of the things, some of the takeaways, I know there's two things we need to understand to create safe, inclusive environments, to create environments that people can thrive. One thing is, is like, how do I truly see another person? Do I see a person as a human? A person that has hopes and fears and challenges? That's the first piece. I have to check my mindset and how I view others. The next one is just as important, I believe even more complicated because now I have to extend outside of myself. The next stage is, how do I start to understand my impact on others? I understand that they're humans now. Now, seeing that you matter and I matter, what is my impact on you? I need to know what I'm doing that's working. I need to know what I'm doing that's not working. But the reality is, once you are humanized to me, how I'm impacting you matters. And once we get to a stage where everybody is seeing each other's humanity and having discussions about impact. The culture of the organization is a safer place because now we have the capabilities and the safety to engage. I love the definition, I always say, psychological safety is defined as having the courage to take interpersonal risk. It's not just about being seen, being heard, being validated, not being afraid. It's like, do I have the ability to take interpersonal risk with the person in front of me? And I think in seeing a person's humanity and understanding your impact on them, we're creating a foundation that makes it safe to take interpersonal risk. So that's just something. You know, it seems so obvious in a lot of ways to see each other's humanity, to check ourselves, what's our impact. And yet we need that constant reminder, don't we? So talk to me about acknowledging this humanity in others and how that works in our daily lives. We know there's always a ripple effect, right, how we act at work and the person we bring home. So talk to me about the daily life impact of seeing people like that. Well, you know how, okay, you folks are, you folks like specialize in this anxiety business and this workplace business. So I'll be very, very clear. There is a strong impact. We know that as emotions go up, as I'm emotionally elevated, my ability to have social engagement decreases. There's this correlation between elevation, fight or flight, and social engagement. And so when we look at this from a day-to-day space, seeing people for who they are means more than just, oh, you're a person, I'm a person. It means in this situation, when this person is emotionally elevated or elevating, in seeing their humanity I'm less likely to join the circus, right? I'm less likely to take offense. I'm less likely to engage in a way where it's about me being offended because a person's emotional and more about the humanity that they're simply expressing that I can simply choose to understand in a way to enhance social engagement. And so we talk about, yeah, we, of course you're a human Desmond, oh yeah, you know what? I'm not a human when you're frustrated, when you get frustrated, like these actions, these day-to-day actions of embracing a person's humanity in a way where it's okay for people to have emotions. It's okay to understand them deeply. It's okay to see them in a way where you're not fighting against things. I can't tell you how many times people argue over things that have no meaning at all. They're simply trying to protect themselves. And if we really saw each other's humanity, I'd be less likely to get into those protective mechanisms that I feel I need to be in, that make it difficult for me to have the day-to-day communication and engagement that I want to. Lovely. That's beautiful. That's a beautiful thought. Yeah. Bringing the humanity here, especially when people, like you say, are emotionally elevating. I love that term as well. Hey, we're always interested in people like yourself. You're a successful person. How do you keep your mental health where you want it to be so you can thrive? Give us some of your daily tactics to keep yourself grounded and focused. Come on, man. I am a very broken soul. It's for y'all. And I think the thing that keeps me grounded is a deep appreciation that it is perfectly okay for me not to be okay. It's perfectly okay for me to be to be broken, to cry, to have challenges, to have difficulties, to have sadness. I have put away the expectations that I need to constantly be something for somebody else and instead focus more on the capacity to just simply be who I am because that's enough. That is enough. And all of that comes with this deep appreciation that being broken, being imperfect, being maybe not exactly who you want to be is a beautiful place to be. And I don't have to second-guess it and I don't have to, I mean that's the part of my health, embracing the fact that I'm unhealthy. I mean, Wait a minute, I thought you were a marathon runner. You got the shoes. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I love that expression. It says the masterpieces in the mess. Said, well, then I guess I'm a masterpiece because I'm a mess. Yeah. Yeah. There is so much societal pressure on being a certain way. It's a multi, multi-billion dollar industry and people creating narratives about what you should look like, what you should wear, where you should live, who you should communicate with, what you should do. And it's too much. It's all rooted in lies that make us believe we need to be better than others to be happy. And I try my best. I'm not perfect at it, but I try my best to not prescribe to such models. Well, hey listen, we're wrapping up. This has been so engaging. I really appreciate you, Desmond. People that are listening to the podcast, give me one or two things you hope they will take away from our conversation today. The fact that seeing a person's humanity can often be complicated, as well as seeing your own humanity. And that once I'm a bit more curious and aware of others, and I can create an environment where people sense that I really want to see their humanity, then I present a different human to them that they've been resisting in the past. And so the benefit of this is to be that new human by seeing who they are and understanding their impact. Well, the book is the fourth edition of Leadership and Self-Deception. Our guest has been Desmond Lomax from the Urban Georgia Institute. Desmond, thank you so much. It's been an amazing conversation. I feel more pumped up for my day and enlightened. So thank you for joining us for that. My pleasure, folks. Really a pleasure. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, appreciate you. Thank you. You know, Adrian, we're all looking for ways to manage our own personal anxiety and mental health. And I found a ritual that really works well for me. And it's magic, man. You know, particularly Monday mornings, I love it. It's a little green liquid bottle, it's a quick shot, and it's all natural ingredients. It puts me in the flow for like seven hours. I love that all the ingredients are natural and they're sourced. That it's something that really does give you that easy up and that easy down at the end of the day. I find that not only does it calm me down, it sharpens my focus. And I think that's what we're all looking for, right? You know, it's the world's best ingredients. Read the labels, go on magicmind.com and look at what it does and how it does it. And because you're listening to our podcast, when you go to magicmind.com, just put forward slash Gostik and Elton, that's G-O-S-T-I-C-K-A-N-D-E-L-T-O-N, 40 for your discount. You'll get 40% off your subscription. It's available for the first 10 people that respond from the podcast. It really is a wonderful product. It's a natural product. I swear by it. Give it a try, I know you'll enjoy it. If you're looking for some fun ways to manage your mental health, this is really a good one. Magic Mind, I use it and you should too. So Adrian, I mean, a classic book, fourth edition. You know, it's a book you and I know very well. And what a delight to have Desmond on the podcast. Give me a couple of your big takeaways. Well, just this idea of seeing ourselves clearly as well as seeing others. That self-deception hurts our growth. Sometimes we don't realize the impact we have on others. I mean, you know, I've had, you know, people 20 years ago say, oh, you were my best manager. And I've also had people who kind of said, yeah, we never really clicked, did we? And so we don't really realize the impact we have on each other. But I loved his kind of idea about the football team, for example, and how often do we do that, where we kind of assume people are a certain way, when we're really not seeing them clearly. Very powerful. Yeah, along that line, it was shades of people. We see people in shades, we don't see the whole person. I thought that was really interesting that we look at them as objects, people that get things done for us. And as long as they're doing things that we want them to do, we think they're pretty great. And that was a big takeaway for me. It really was. And if I don't see you, I can't bring out the best in you. That idea, we say in our trainings, we say find their stories. And this is even bigger. It's the idea of, yeah, who is the whole person here? Because what we're looking for is this idea of psychological safety. And he's also saying, psychological safety is the ability to take interpersonal risks. That I'll bring you in, then I'll be a little bit more vulnerable. I mean, what a powerful thought. Yeah. I think the other thing that really jumped out to me was his experience with inmates and the prison system. And he says, we don't see him as people, we see him as inmates, that people can't change. We've got to change that whole perspective, that it is a chance for a reset, that people can change. In fact, people change all the time. But we've got it in our heads, once you've gone to prison, game over, you know, and just recently having had that experience, really rang home to me. I have to tell you, though, his wrap up, when he said, I'm a broken person. And my mental health exercise is to be comfortable with the fact that I am not OK, that I'm going to be sad. I'm going to cry. Things aren't going to go well. And I'm OK with that. That was huge. It really was. I mean, that was that was so powerful. I put a big exclamation by that, too, because we all were all broken vessels. As you said, the masterpiece is in the mess, and we're all messes, and we just don't want to admit it to anybody. We don't want to show our failings or vulnerabilities, but as leaders, what we found is the days of Superman, Superwoman are long gone. I don't need my manager to be that way anymore. I need them to be human, to admit when they've made mistakes, to admit when, you know, they've been a little fallible themselves or been stressed or anxious. And he says, when I then get emotionally elevated They're still treating me like a person who's just having a bad day versus you know, somebody who's off the off the rails, etc Yeah, my last thing is his admonition to say hey you matter Don't forget the fact that you matter see other people's humanity It can't get complicated and see your own humanity and that this is a new time you can become that new person and make that change well I'll let you wrap it up before we close things down, but you have one last thing Just the last thing I scribbled down was that yeah, and then I'm paraphrasing Desmond here But yeah, this this perfect image of ourselves that people see on Instagram and Facebook or wherever you go is is why? We're all infallible, we're all fallible, we're all broken vessels, but accept that. We're okay. You're okay as who you are, and you are enough. And you know who's enough to chess is our producer Brent Klein. And our amazing booker. He is. Yeah, and he is, and so is our amazing booker, Christy Lawrence, who helps us find such amazing guests. And all of you who listened in are amazing and enough as well. If you like the podcast, share it. We'd also love you to visit the the culture works.com for free resources to help you and your team thrive. Yeah. We love speaking to audiences all around the world, virtually or in person on topics of culture, teamwork, resilience. Give us a call. We'd like to talk to you about your event. And of course, feel free to pick up a copy of our bestselling book, Anxiety at Work, available on Audible, Lit Video, digital, and at fine bookstores everywhere, and of course, Amazon.com. It is, it's everywhere, it's everywhere. Adrian, as always, I'll give you the last word. Hey, thanks everybody for joining us today. Until next time, we wish you the best of mental health.