Courage Is Conquering Fear to Realize Your True Potential

At a time when courage is in short supply, how can we transform our fears into growth? Hi, I'm Chester Elton, and with me is my dear friend and co-author, Adrian Gostick. Well, thanks, Ches, and thanks, everybody, for joining us. share a roadmap to reprogram the self-protective patterns of thought and behavior our brains go through that actually may sabotage our success. And also we can bring our bravest selves to our challenges and to our vision. As always, we hope the time you spend with us will help reduce the stigma of anxiety at work and in your personal life. And with us is our dear, dear friend, Margie Worrell, author of several books on topics such as courage, self-trust, and ways to handle uncertainty. Her new book is The Courage Gap from Barrett Kohler Publishers. Dr. Worrell writes and speaks about the dangers of being disingenuous and explains in her Forbes careers column, various ways avoiding our real emotions and human experience can have a detrimental impact on our professional success. It's always great to spend time with Margie. She always puts a smile on her face. Thank you so much, Margie, for finding time for us today. You're always a delight. Likewise, thanks for having me, Adrian and Testa. Well, we're thrilled to have you back. And a lot of people don't know this, that, you know, Margie, we call her Crocodile Margie, because she grew up in the Aussie bush. And now you're writing about courage. Well, give us the connection there. How did growing up in the Aussie bush maybe prepare you to write this book about courage, the courage gap? Well, it was all those crocodiles I wrestled, Adrian. Absolutely. And sharks and spiders and kangaroos. No, but you know, I think it's fair to say that I have stepped out of my comfort zone countless times since I grew up on a dairy farm, big sister of seven in the Aussie bush. I've had to wrangle a lot with my own anxiety and my own doubts and my own fears. I've fallen down many times, you know, brushed myself off many times. And I think that's sort of why I have such a passion for helping people to be braver in their lives, in how they live, in how they communicate, in how they lead. Because let's face it, all of us have moments of anxiety. I mean, none of us are immune to feeling, you know, that sense of, oh, can I do this? What's the future hold? We have those what ifs come up. And so it's not about exterminating, extinguishing anxiety and fear from our lives. It's learning how to manage it so that we can take the very actions that will help us to flourish and thrive more in a world that's constantly stoking all of our reasons to feel insecure and anxious. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I think it's a technical term that you talked about, when we feel, and we all do, right? There's those mornings where we wake up and we go, it's in the DSMV, yes. Yeah, so along that line, you talk about adopting the stories we tell ourselves. And, you know, as we, Adrienne and I have talked to a lot of different people about this self-talk or the stories that we tell ourselves and how that can have such a huge impact for good and ill. You talk about be careful because it can end up sabotaging your success. Can you walk us through that self-sabotage and again the tools, how to make sure we don't do that? Yeah, absolutely. that our anxiety is created by a fearful thought about an unwanted future state. Say that again, repeat that, that was really good. A fearful thought. Our anxiety is created by a fearful thought about an unwanted future state, like what might happen in the future. And so, yes, there are many things in our environment that can be, potentially create anxiety, but it's how we're interpreting. It's the story we're telling ourselves. If we operate from a story of, I've got this, whatever happens, I can handle it, I can meet the moment, I'll get through it, that creates a very different emotional state than, oh my gosh, what will happen if this happens? I don't have what it takes, it'll be terrible. We can create our own stress through our language. Our language isn't just descriptive, it's generative. And so, you know, number one, you know, I talk about it in the courage gap is, one is getting clear about what it is you want and focusing on the outcomes you want. What is the future state you want versus what you don't want? Because our brains automatically go to what it is we don't want to happen, where we're twice as sensitive to all the things we don't want than the things that we do want. So, one is just getting your focus in the right place because what you focus on expands, and that can make you more stressed or that can make you feel more confident in yourself as well. But this thing around stories, just recognizing that we are wired for making interpretations and creating stories about ourselves, our lives, our workplaces, our boss, our future. And often we get stuck in these stories that make us feel more stressed and less confident and can keep us living too safely and selling ourselves short. And so just making a practice of stepping back when you're finding yourself feeling stressed as we all do. I mean, we all have moments like that and we shouldn't be going like, oh, I shouldn't feel stressed. No, we all have those moments. But when you can go, okay, I'm feeling a little anxious, I'm feeling a little stressed, what is it I'm telling myself right now? One, what is it I'm focusing on and what am I telling myself about what I'm focusing on? And the ability to step back and to re-script what we're telling ourselves can really shift and short-circuit that stress response that often then sets up in our bodies, you know, where we feel it in our bodies, in our stomach, in our chest, in our throat. And so there is an incredible power to cultivating that skill and that self-awareness, that mindfulness of like, what is it I'm telling myself right now that's got me feeling the way I'm feeling? Because our stories trigger an emotional state and in emotions are what drive action, not our intellect and not logic, but our emotional state is what either expands the actions we take or shrinks it down. So good, Margie. Okay, now I'm going to play hard-hitting reporter because you know, you come on with Chester and I, we're known for our hard-hitting questions. 60 minutes. Bring it on, Adrian. Bring it on. For 60 minutes, then there's Chester and Adrian way up there. The gotcha questions. The gotcha questions. Okay. Okay, so, you know, talking to a 20-something this week, you know, this person was saying, look, I'd love to be more courageous at work, but the corporate world is just stacked against me. You know, if I take a leap and do something different, you know, my head could get chopped off. So that's why in our age, we stay below the parapets, right? We're not sticking our heads up. So how do you get over that when, you know, they're not completely wrong, is that if they take a leap too far and they don't have a year's salary to recover or anything in the bank, they're living paycheck to paycheck. How do you help somebody who's younger take some of this advice? Really good question, Adrian. You should apply for a role on Pixie Minute. I tell you what. Yeah, Maureen's favorite. He's, yeah. Okay, let me say a couple things to that. Firstly, I would just say, be really careful about how you describe a situation. You just said, you know, they said, the corporate world, my company, it's stacked against me. And so, be mindful the way you even describe things. When you say it's stacked against me, or it's impossible to get a head around here. It's way too risky for me to ever say anything." We set ourselves up for that self-fulfilling prophecy because all behavior is belief-driven. If you're telling yourself that, then you're really limiting what you can do. It's like you're never going to say a word. Why would you? All of your organization is stacked against you. I would rephrase that. I'd re-language that and go, you know, there's a lot of challenges and there's risks in the organization, and I sometimes feel like it's not safe. It just shifts it from being it's all stacked against me to, you know, I have to navigate this because I do feel like there's things that I can and can't say, which is true, absolutely. I mean we're all part of organizations and networks where we have to be mindful. There are risks, so it's not about a lack of risk. I'm not saying we're reckless and I'm not denying that there are risks. But I would also say this, we all have the agency to speak up and we have to be very mindful about how what we say will be perceived. And it's not about, you know, I think we all got it wrong a few years ago when people said, bring your whole self to work and be authentic. Being authentic and bringing your…saying everything you think isn't smart, that's actually foolish. So, being astute to how will this be perceived. But for someone who's young, and I have four kids in their 20s, three of which have entered into the workforce, one's about to. And yeah, you have to be really mindful of, ah, you know, what are the dynamics here? You know, what are the power players? Power players, people are always on alert for how they could be perceived badly if you challenge what they're doing, if you give critical feedback. But that doesn't mean what you have to say isn't of value, and it's about how you say it. Are you saying it in a way that respects and honors the experience that other people have that you don't have? Are you just talking about problems and being critical? Or are you suggesting very humbly potential ways that things could be done differently that would actually help the people that you work for be more successful? So how can you language things in such a way that doesn't come across as threatening and critical, but comes across as constructive and respectful, and yes, you know your place, you're new, but hey, you're really committed to making things better and you're learning and you're open to feedback. So I do think the way we say things, how we language things and giving that a lot of thought before you do speak up because just recognizing communication isn't defined by what's being said, it's defined by what's being heard. But I do think that as much as we can always look at all the obstacles and all of the reasons why not, like focus on what's the impact you want to make? How do you want to help others? And get your ego out of the way and don't let your fear call the shots. Let your commitment to being a really thoughtful, contributing member of a team be what drives your behavior. Hey, great answer. Thanks. Yeah. Okay, so you talk about five steps. Walk us through the five steps, and you've got 30 seconds. Okay. Okay, perfect. Okay, I've been training for 60 minutes. Okay, one. One is what I just said. Focus on what it is you want. What's your highest intention? Focus on what you want and not what you're afraid of. Our brains are wired for all the things that could go wrong. So your commitment to a positive outcome has to exceed your fear of a negative outcome. Number two, just take a step back and re-script whatever story you're telling yourself that's keeping you stressed and anxious or making you feel stuck or feeling like everything's stacked against you. Like that languaging in itself, that becomes a reality you're living in. So just take a step back and know that just because you're telling yourself something is a certain way doesn't mean it is that way You know, not everything you tell yourself is true. So re-script. Number three, we've got to right-size our fear. Often we're more afraid than we need to be. We have this magnified perception of all the dangers like, if I speak up around here, I'm gonna get sacked. I'm like, huh, really? Maybe if you do it in a way that's not respectful, if you don't do it with the right people, if you don't give it thought. But just resetting our own response to fear. And I say, just take in a moment to take a big, deep breath. Just taking one myself right now, because you guys have me so anxious here. So anxious. Really have an effect. Take a big, deep breath. It's why we call it anxiety, the podcast. Breathe in courage, stand tall, sit tall, walk tall. The coach John Wooden, that iconic basketball coach said, it's not about how tall you are, it's how tall you play. And our physiology, fear sets up in our bodies, but our physiology can also be a tool to embolden ourselves, to just stop feeling so anxious. And just, you know, sometimes I say go for a walk around the block and walk like you are the king of the world and just put yourself in a state where you're feeling calmer and you're feeling braver. Number four is to make peace with discomfort and treat that nervousness that you feel, that anxiety you feel, like we... Anxiety, I mean the word anxiety, obviously anxiety, we don't want to feel anxious. But can I just say, we are at our best when we're feeling a little bit of stress. If I was having a nap two minutes before I got on this call with you, I wouldn't be at my best. You know, I had a nap three minutes before the call with you, but not two minutes before the call with you. So just being mindful that it is okay that you feel nervous. It's okay to feel a little bit stressed. That's how you hone your game. And I know, Chester, you get on a lot of stages, and Adrian, and you're speaking. And sometimes that little bit of nervousness before you do something is actually a sign that you are on center court in your life, that you are living your purpose, that you are rising into your potential. So when you feel discomfort, treat that as a sign that you are where you need to be and that you're growing and use it as a cue to step forward, not come back. So I think that people that are the most successful aren't those that are always avoiding stress. There are people who go, discomfort is the ticket price for me to grow into who it is I want to be and to make the impact I want to make. And my fifth step, I know I'm just over 30 seconds so I hope you don't press the buzzer, the gong. The fifth step is to forgive yourself when you mess up, because we all mess up. We are all fallible. None of us get it right all the time. I'm sure if I look back on this interview, I'll be like, oh, I could have said that differently. I could have done that. But just forgive yourself for being human and learn the lessons when you don't get it right. I think often we can ruminate and we can berate ourselves, but make peace with failure as an opportunity for you to learn what you wouldn't learn otherwise so that you can do better moving forward. And finally, I would just say, use all of that to help elevate other people and make other people braver around you. That's what I want to get to in just a minute, is how leaders help others. But first off, Margie, how do people learn more about your work? Where would you send them? They can head over to my website, which is margiewarrell.com, and find me on obviously LinkedIn and wherever you hang out online. But yeah, my website's probably the best place to go as a one-stop shop. Sounds good. Okay, so let's talk then about leaders or maybe a senior mentor or somebody who's trying to help others to get out of their comfort zone a little bit to stop this self-defeating talk. So how do you support other people and give them safe places? And maybe give us an example. Has a manager or a leader come to mind that you said they did this really well, that you could kind of give us an exemplar of doing this in the right way? Oh, yeah, you bet. I think I actually recently left a role as senior partner at Korn Ferry in their board and CEO succession practice. I think of Jane Stevenson, who is co-chair there, someone who always made you feel acknowledged, reminded you of why you matter and what you did was valuable. So, you know, shout out to Jane as someone who was an incredible source of encouragement. And I think of encouragement as verbal sunshine. And, you know, I don't know about you guys, but I have never met someone who said to me, feel too encouraged. Most people are hungry for a few… The only person who ever said that to us is Marshall Goldsmith. God bless Marshall because, well, you know, and how fortunate he is that he had a lot of people doing that. But I would just say this, there's two core dimensions to courage. One is the management of fear, and the second is the willingness to take action in the presence of our fears and risks. There are risks. And so, as a leader, one, you want to help lower people's fear factor, and you want to enlarge who they are as a person. You want to help them believe in themselves more, so that even though they might feel afraid or there's doubt or there's risks, that they have the belief in themselves that they're going to move forward anyway. And so creating safety, and we know that psychological safety is the number one predictor of high-performing teams, and courage and psychological safety are two sides of the same coin. I talk a lot about how do we foster these cultures of courage, and one of it is how do we make it safer? How do we de-risk acts of interpersonal courage, giving someone feedback, disagreeing? How do you encourage people to do that and to reduce any reason they would have to hesitate to say something? Because our cognitive calculus will always be, say nothing, stay quiet, don't give the feedback, don't hold someone accountable, don't speak up in the meeting, don't disagree. So how do we make people feel safer? We reward those behaviors. And secondly, how do we make people feel bigger in themselves? And acknowledging the potential we see in them, catching them doing things right, sharing with them how we've failed but what we learned from it. So if they mess up, they don't internalize that, that they're a failure. But, hey, you know what? I did that once too, and here's what I learned, and I know you will as well. Letting people know we've got their back, we create this environment that others feel braver and we de-risk and we reduce all of their reasons not to do the brave thing in those moments when we all have those moments where we're like, do I, don't I? Do I speak up or not speak up and leaders have to go out of their way, proactively and regularly, not once a year, and say, hey, you know, I want you to try this, pushing people out of their comfort zone, rewarding them and acknowledging them and say, thanks so much for speaking up, thanks for sharing your opinion, regardless of whether you agree with it. But that's the stuff that makes people feel a little bigger, walk a little taller. You know, I really appreciate that comment because Adrienne and I will often say, as a leader, when you interact with anybody and you walk away, do they feel better about themselves? That's the mark of a great leader, right? When you approach somebody, do they go, �Hey, here comes Margie� or do they go, �Ah, here comes Margie.� He is going to be just zeroing in on what I messed up. Let me just say this. This doesn't mean we don't hold people to account This is all mean we don't we don't give people feedback that sometimes can be hard for people to hear That's a sign that we care. I mean candor is kindness but we know like the work out of the Gottman Institute the it's the balance of the encouragement with a constructive criticism So, you know, are you constantly affirming people and giving it? And then you create that trust. You're putting a lot of deposits into that relationships account. So when those moments come and you're like, you know, Chester, I just want to say that I feel like you, you know, you talk too much, you know, in that meeting and you probably should have asked some more questions and listened a little bit more. Margie, no one has ever said that to me. Ever. to be ever. I just said it. I just said it. Yeah, well, and this is the first time I'm hearing about it. That's all I'm saying. But hopefully there's enough love in the account that you can hear it and you know that I love you and that's why I'm giving you that. And in all seriousness, I think that's the kind of thing leaders need to be doing, continually putting deposits in that account, but obviously, in accountability, whenever we're not holding people accountable, when we're not giving that feedback, actually, that's us not being brave, and that lacks courage, and sometimes it's out like cowardly and we're doing, not only that person a profound disservice, we're doing the entire team a disservice. Yeah, yeah, thanks for that candor. It's a shame this will be the last time you'll ever be on our podcast. Hey, listen, we're always interested in self-care. Tell us a couple of things that you do to keep yourself brave. Well, it's how I start my day, Chester, I think is one of my big things. You know, I feel so strongly how we start our day, helps to shape our day. And so for me, I do have, I like to make an Earl Grey tea with milk. And I sit down and I often read something that feeds my spirit and reminds me of who I am and who I want to be. So that's a really important practice, ritual that I have, a sort of a kind of a sacred ritual that just is core for me. Moving my body, I didn't exercise today, I had an early meeting, but often I just want to get out and just move this earth suit of mine, because it helps me show up better as well. But I would also say I regularly journal, and I find that literally journaling, and I actually have a faith, so I often say to God, God, what do you want me to know? And then he writes a lovely letter back to me, and often it's just exactly what I need to focus on in that moment. So. That's beautiful. That's wonderful. Hey, Margie, this has been such a great discussion. We're coming up to the end of our time. Give me something that, just to close us off, that you learned writing this book that maybe you hadn't really thought of before became clearer to you. Something, an aha that you went through here. Yeah, you know, there's actually two. One is the importance of not just courage is action in the presence of fear, but learning to manage our own fear because often we're more afraid than we need to be. And the second, and if there was another book right now that I was going to write, it would be about what's in the fifth chapter of the book, which is about finding the treasure when we trip up, but also extending grace to ourselves, embracing our own fallibility, befriending our fear. I think there is such a well of courage that can flow when we forgive ourselves for the times that we don't show up as the person we want to be, when our inner chicken little wins out and we don't step forward and speak up. Rather than berate ourselves and talk ourselves down and go, ìYouíre just such an idiot, such a loser,î which I have done. Iíve been very good at doing. But just extending that grace inside ourselves, and I think when we do that, it not only lifts us higher, but it allows us to be someone that lifts everyone else around us higher too when they slip up because other people will inevitably fall down as well. Thatís wonderful. Hey, her book, you have to buy it, buy two, buy one for you and buy one for a friend, is called The Courage Gap from Wiley Publishing. Her name is Dr. Margie Worrell. She's a dear friend of ours, follower on LinkedIn. Look up her stuff. This is not the only book she's written, so complete your library. Just buy everything that she writes and you'll be better for it. Margie, what a delight. Thank you so much for finding the time. Thank you, 60 Minutes. I appreciated it. It's been a pleasure, and I hope I do get to come back again one day. Yeah, no, lose my number. Okay. It's been great. Margie, take care. It's been great, Margie. Thanks, Margie. Yeah. Well, Chess, really good, again, information. All of us have anxiety about being courageous, but some really good learnings from Margie about how we break through that fear. What did you take away? Yeah. First, I love her story, that she grew up in the bush, in the outback, and she was stepping out of her comfort zone. The oldest of seven kids. That'll give you a lot of life lessons right there. I really like when she said, focus on the right place. We get stuck in our stories. Focus on where you want that story to go. The word that really popped out to me that I wrote in big letters was, re-script. Re-script your story. That stress when you tell the bad story, your throat gets tight and your chest gets tight. and rescript it and tell yourself the story that you want the positive outcome to be and just breathe and get there. So rescript was the big word that popped up for me. Because I know you sparked this too. She said, you know, anxiety or lack of courage is this fearful thought about an unwanted future state. And she says, it's the story we tell ourselves. Oh, nobody's going to want to hear from me. Or if I raise my voice up, I'll get fired. And 99 times out of 100, none of those things are going to happen. And also, what's the opposite? We live in a world where we have no voice and we're not able to be ourselves. That's a lousy way to live. So as she says, look, be mindful of how you describe things, especially self-limiting behaviors and self-limiting thoughts. I think that's really powerful. It was really fun when she said, right size your fear. Walk around the block like you're the king. Stand tall. She quoted one of my favorite coaches, Coach Wooden, when he says, it's not how tall you are, it's how tall you play. That was it. Make peace with discomfort. I know you and I talk a lot about that, you know, be comfortable with being uncomfortable. Well, the word is uncomfortable. I like when she says make peace with that. Yeah, that's a much more positive. That approach spoke more to me than just get comfortable. It does because we always tell leaders, okay, stop telling your people to get comfortable being uncomfortable. But making peace with it is better because it's going to be, the world is uncomfortable right now. It's not going to stop. Every company we go into, every organization is going through tremendous change. It's like, and every time we talk with an organization before we go, they say, we're going through a lot of change. And what we have to tell them is everybody is right now. And your people have to get, like I said, get used to it, make peace with it, and that's where leaders come in. And so I love what she said about, you know, first, courage, it's first about managing our fear. Doesn't mean we can get rid of it, we manage it. We're not, we shouldn't be as afraid as we think we should be. Then secondly, you take action in the presence of fear, which any soldier will tell you, that's how you take the hill, is, yeah, you're afraid, but you take action in the presence of fear. Yeah. Lastly, forgive yourself. I think that's the tough one for everybody. You know, we beat ourselves up more than anybody else would beat ourselves up. That, give yourself a little grace. Forgive yourself and know that you're gonna mess up. Everybody messes up. Put it behind you. Put that action plan in place and move forward. I mean, Markie made fun of some guy talking too much in a meeting, but you forgave her, right? Yeah, I'm working on it. Yeah, Chatty Chester. It brought back horrible memories of being in school. Chatterbox Chester, actually. Anyway, lastly for me was I loved your self-practice. How do you start your day? I loved that Earl Grey. I mean, wasn't that such the English sort of Commonwealth, Australian? I said, Earl Grey with some milk. It just calmed your spirits. And read something that's edifying. So often we start our days, our phone goes off, it's our alarm, and we go right to the news of the day or the sports scores or whatever. That's a good reminder for me to pull up something that's going to edify you, that's going to build you up as opposed to cause more anxiety and worry. Just when I think of courageous people, you know who I'm going to mention right now. He's a guy that has such an impact on our lives. Even when he's sick, like literally on his deathbed, he shows up for us. Of course, it's the indomitable. Brent Kline. The amazing, the one, the only Brent Kline, our producer we wanna thank. We wanna thank Christy Lawrence who helps us bring in such amazing guests and to all of you who listened in, thank you if you liked the podcast, download it, share it. We'd also love you to visit thecultureworks.com for free resources. And of course, pick up a copy of our book, Anxiety at Work, which will help you and your team thrive during tough times. Yeah, I mean, and you can buy Margie's book too, but then add, you know, in the thing, put our book. You know, as you buy the Courage Cap, go ahead and put in Anxiety at Work. Hey, listen, we love speaking to audiences and we do all over the world, whether it's in person or virtually. We talk about topics like culture, teamwork, resilience, give us a call. We'd love to talk to you about your event and see how we can support you there. Really a lot of fun. Love Margie. She just has so many practical ideas. And as always, Adrian, you get the last word. Well, thanks, Niles. Until next time, I wish you the best of mental health. You know, nobody's gonna get that joke but you and me. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. Thank you.