#13 Anneke Lucas with Sven Kull

Hello and welcome to this episode of my podcast. I'm Annika Lucas. And today I am in Windeck in Germany. I traveled here to interview a survivor that I've known for seven years. And um we have spoken quite a bit over the years and we um do things together and I will talk about that in just a minute after I introduce him. I just want to let you know that obviously I travel here. David is doing the technical side of this.

Everything comes out of my own pocket and any support that you can give is very much appreciated. So small donations or large donations, um, it really helps to get me here. Um, it doesn't usually get funded all the way, so if you do have it to spare, I would love to just like get a nice fat donation to be able to just do a whole podcast. But two dollars, five dollars, ten dollars, everything is completely welcome.

So thank you also for the support that you have been giving, that you have been sending, not only the support in um dollars. but also very much the support in messages that come to me all the time. As we know, this is a difficult Subject, uh not one that we survivors have chosen, but nevertheless important to speak about, to be able to freely speak about it.

And so my guest today is Fen Kul and He is a survivor, um, who I met in twenty eighteen online. And very quickly we um worked together. I had just started an online peer support group for survivors of extreme abuse. which is ongoing today. Um, you can go to my resources page on my website to find it if you are a survivor of extreme abuse, that is to say, extreme meaning, um Uh organized organized abuse, ritual abuse, mind control, these elements

Uh they don't all have to be part of it, but it is um, you know, these kinds of abuse where extreme things happen to us as children. So um Sven is the admin for the group. So m many of you survivors probably already have been in contact with him, that uh especially if you're already on the group. And um so yes, Sven, thank you so much. I wanna just let everyone know that this is the first time that you're speaking out. Yes, it is the first time I'm speaking out. I give an interview.

about my history, about my past. It's difficult to speak about. But it has to be. We have to speak out. So we step um speaking out uh it's similar like to step in the light out of the shadow. And um I hope that uh us also I was may follow to tell their own history. So um we might um get uh people uh to understand that this happened. That this happened exactly. And your story is quite unique in terms of um

Being in the West, we're in West Germany. Well, we're in former West Germany. And um I'm from the West and we have had many survivors from the West. of this um particular thing, but in your context, it was all about being in socialist country state of East Germany. And so I thought it would be interesting to start um, if you wouldn't mind, giving us um an idea of what life

was like uh regular life in the nineteen sixties when you were growing up, what life was like in general in the East. When you were born in in East Germany, um your um your life was scheduled by government from very early age you go to the kindergarten. It was made that each genre got to place. Så de parents could go to work. Living was cheap. You got the family. Got a.

housing a flat, they couldn't they couldn't choose. They got one and then the government said, That's your fl that's your housing. Um you have you haven't paid much for it and uh for food. uh that was cheap. Expensive has been clothing or something uh like a TV or um that was very expensive. Um from uh from an from own car we don't uh talk. Um an engineer has had an income of approximately five hundred sixty to eight hundred German marks a month. And for uh the cheapest car, um is you had to pay

Um in between ten and thirteen thousand German marks. Gotcha. And you have to wait ten years. You have to wait. And also, um, I read your manuscript so and we had also already spoken and yet you had shared things with me that I'll always remember.

and um we will talk more about it. And um you y it was I didn't know that also holidays were assigned by the government. Yes, of course. Um We had as in the school we had eight weeks summer school holidays. But my parents, three weeks of holidays only in the whole year. So there's a big difference. And each... of two to three weeks

during the summer school the holidays. School holidays. And um my parents have paid um part of the of uh of the trip and um by the company MyFollowRocks and There we um we were sent to to uh some to a place somewhere in East Germany. Right. And uh we had the day was scheduled. Yes. Even those can even those holiday camps were quite militaristic. Yes. Um we had went up in the morning, uh sports in the mornings and breakfast.

Um we have had excursions uh uh to um place to museums or to places um where um uh Then the Nazis uh have uh done um bad things and after um after that visit we had to uh write down uh expern is that obviously the Nazis were the bad guys, but in a socialist uh country there's a lot of the education that you received that was complete propaganda. Yes. Yeah. We uh it started from uh from the first class. There is was a youth organization called Ernst Telemann, Pioneers. Yes.

uh that um you became a pioneer in the first class. You don't had to be. member of that youth organization, but if you haven't been in that youth organization, you were punished. by government by um that you uh got no benefit. Gotcha. So basically it's a youth organization like the Hitler jugend really, but for socialists. And if you it was so supposedly all voluntary if you wanted, but if you didn't you actually got um you know

lack of benefits. It's suddenly benefits disappeared. Yes. And that organization is super important to your story. So I just want to um you know, just want to leading in there was um

A situation early on in your life from three to five, you had you know lovely years because your grandfather was very loving. A job? Yes. And um my mother? has been a teacher, a primary school teacher. Yes. And um in East Germany they had to teach uh until uh the sch the children went home. On and um then they had to do the work uh

Yeah, the homeworks and everything and all the other. They had to do it in school. They had to do it all in school. So basically your mother was gone late and then you stayed with your grandparents. In the in the early uh shift? Yes. Okay. Um in between six AM and two PM. Okay. And after that she took me to their home. They lived in in the remains of an old manor. Yes, you there was a great description of this manor where there was only an outhouse. An outhouse toilet?

But nevertheless you have these wonderful memories of your grandfather and the loving relationship that you had with him. Whereas um you described your parents as your um you know, your mother was always busy, also with your little sister later, and then your uh father

Because uh okay, I'm just jumping ahead a little bit because then when you went to school uh basically at five years old, was it that your grandfather died then? No. Or that you moved. You moved away to Brandenburg. To Brandenburg. He got he got uh A housing, a flat. Yes. And then we moved. Okay. So now you lived in Brandenburg and I just want to jump ahead a little bit because In Brandenburg you got bullied in school. Yes. In uh in the kindergarten and ten school. Yes. I had no real friends. Um

I figured out that I got attention when uh for good results in school. In school by the teachers. And that was the only, that was, I focused on that. I focused on that. I learned to get best research. And for that, I got, I became a nerd. But a nerd in the GDR was not a good one. Was not a good thing. When we were young nerds were not cool. No, but uh by uh I got bullied by the um by the classmates for that as well.

And then there was someone uh called Andreas who lived behind you. Basically he was the caretaker of a children's home, which was located behind your home. And he was the one person who would listen to you, correct? Yes. I could uh if um if I was that if I um need someone to talk, I could go to him. And uh he listened to me. Um I got um A chocolate drink or chocolate milk chocolate milk chocolate milk. Just say, Hey, sit down and

But he tried to be my friend and I thought he would be my friend, but he was not. And um in the time between my start at school and um nineteen uh my start in school in nineteen seventy and nineteen s and then in nineteen seventy three. Um he um told me that friends do something for benefit of each other, and he did started to um Yes. in the time between my 5th birthday and my 9th birthday mainly I have memories

And I visited my grandparents. So um so but from five to nine you have sparse memories, but at nine years old

So you were selected for the pioneer camp and you know people can look up those camps or the I'll teal them. No, there have been on the one side there have been the um the holidays camps. Uh huh. From the from the from the companies. Okay. On the other side there has been uh as ga it has been um some pioneer camps. Pioneer camps it was it has been an honor. To be to be uh choosing to a pioneer camp. You got an invitation.

I uh we were we were saying that okay, so the you were telling the di there was the holiday camps that were from the also the state and then there were the pioneer camps which At nine you were selected for the pioneer camp. Um th um there has been a pioneer camp. Um well the children were invited to stay eighteen days. And this was a great honor. This was a great honor. Much bigger order has been.

to be selected for the Pioneer Republic. The Pioneer Republic uh you spent six weeks paid by all paid by government uh at the V Verbellinse um and then there you got a lot of ideologic ideological uh propaganda yes okay so that was only one student of there are no more than one student of a school in the pioneer repo. And now my parents got an invitation for me For a special pioneer camp for all eight weeks of summer school.

That was amazing. I thought that they demanded that the students had to be members of the Pioneer Youth Organization and very good. a very good result in school. We had notes 1 has been very good and 5 was... was the the worst and we had um over all nodes we had to be one point four or better. I I'm not quite understanding when you're saying you you had one was not meaning uh eight uh grades? Yeah you had eight grades. Okay. Overall. Okay. No less than a grade. Okay.

Um that that were the conditions. So um it 8 weeks paid by the government. Oh, so you had super good. Okay. It sounded like a very Good. A very big honor. So you were very much looking forward to I asked my parents. May I? May I go? And they said, yes, you can go. They sent it back.

the letter back and then we got uh information what I have to bring with and with me and um where we where they where we have to be at one time. We had the last school, the last day of the through a year I got my school records and I thought that will be my ticket to a much better life. I went home, um we had um we had some coffee and uh cakes.

And um then we um we headed to the um to the main station in Brandenburg where the coach The bus the k the bus came to get you the bus came um and the bus came and um Each one there were three other children with their parents waiting for the same bus. Uh Brandenburg uh had uh at the time more than one hundred thousand inhabitants. They three uh had then the bus came, we put the luggage in and uh entered the bus and those three I had a num gave them a number. And well plays?

Sit down on those places down on that. So this is the bus. This is not a general bus. It's the bus that takes you to the camp. That is a government bus basically a camp bus. Uh it's not a camp bus, it's a bus um of um military forces. Um in the in the green of the military forces. All right. Khaki. Khaki colour. No, not khaki, uh green.

Green. Yes. Military green. Military green. Gotcha. And when I entered um I I got uh the n newcomber number three. You got newcomber number three. Um I got my place. then the terminals were closed. Well'cause it was all blocked off. All blocked off. And so you could not see where you were going. No. And we uh On the on the right, uh they started with um with test um mathematics, uh just um knowledge tests. And uh no one it it it seems that It has been common because every did

Did it? Um You thought it was a reward to camp. Yes. And there is already on the bus your being testing. Also, you describe okay, um everything the mil the bus is military. You're being tested and then everything is completely like the military or even I mean, you were handed a number, correct? Yes. Um When we arrived at the camp, there was a registration. First all those who had a number went into the registration then those who were new was to register I handed over my

That's okay. Take your time. My invitation? Yes, you're like, I hand it. Uh they took it and I got um a metal plate on a chain with with a number. And um My number has been seven three one eight four one one nine. Seven three. The year of the first time I participated and I asked the first time and they said sure. Um most of them will uh come back every year. Okay. You know that was the first time. Yeah, and then seventy three. One eight. The p uh the first two um

Numbers of the postal code. Okay. Where you live. Yes. And four one one nine was an ongoing number. And so four one one nine you were now called Yes? 4119. 4119 was my new name. They told me they used that number because if several students have the same first name and it could be difficult to... They gave you a good reason and you're like, sure! Yes, and it was okay.

It seems okay. I c I could see that as a child you were saying why not? Why not? Except now you're you're a number. Yeah. Yeah. And we became uh addressed, we became uniforms. Right. You couldn't even bring your right. Yes. No shoes, not your own shoes. They give you your shoes, everything, uniforms. So we became um just um just like doors. E each one looks like the same. Yes. And you actually were in a barrack? We were in a barrack. We had uh there's a two ro two room barrack.

Ten uh bats and one um in one room. Mm-hmm. There were two barracks for boys and four for girls. And that was each summer camp has been the same. Two foot so um if all has been though Forty boys and eighty girls. And so you're a nine year old boy. This is your first time at this camp.

I got my bed in the middle of the room. Okay. And um several of the boys in that room came and helped me. They show me how to build how to build the bed because if one of the room fails The whole room was punished and they helped me to uh fill in my uh uh to put in my things in in a its special place in that locker and they helped me put it in the locker that it was perfect. Had to be perfect. Yeah. So if I understand you correctly, so you arrived there, you're a number now.

And you still think, you know, I mean it's weird that you were tested already, it's weird that it's so strict.

They they forced me to do the we had we went up early morning, uh had um had exercise and breakfast, then um then in uh indoctrination by the um by the leaders. and then we had our school lessons, then we had lunch. school lessons dinner and we had one hour in the evening for us and then at 9 p.m. We had to go to bed. Every every day. Except that just very soon, like three days in or something. On the first Monday of the camp?

we had um medical examination. Um I had to do the medical examination with a girl, with an older girl, who um have to run to have to do it with me. First I have to watch uh what has done to the girl. So and we're talking she's naked. We're both naked and somehow you have to do a medical examination with an older girl.

You have to watch as sh she's being penetrated basically, right? To measure her yeah. And the last thing So it's very strange these measurements that are taken. And last thing uh they had done was the measure of the difference between the temples. And um then it was this very strange situation because now this strict camp that you're thinking is educational now there's suddenly this Complete transgression on the sexual level.

Where your genitals are being measured by a girl that's a little older and naked there. And then it ends with you getting... by the girl. Supposedly to measure your head. And um then um it the wall was a me it was a me, um a lot of things was taken and then uh I

That's the last thing you remember. Yeah. Uh I woke up one month later in the in the ho in the in the camp hospital. One month. One month. Oh my god. Um and they told me I was uh knocked out during the examination and in the time in between I I have knocked out uh several times. Uh that was the official. One year later later I have seen what they did. Um that Measure instrument has been used to inflict electrical shocks. So the kid knocked out and was put on a

On a stretcher. On a stretcher and uh brought away. Brought back and then laid out approximately one month. And you have no idea what was done to you while you were in a coma. Fragmented memories of I have only fragmented memories of the time very disturbing. Um uh fragments. I was buried um I lay on a plate and um was very tired, tried to sleep, but I couldn't get sleep because every few seconds a water dropped dropped on my forehead. I was um I was floating in a tank.

in the water, in salt water, it has been warm water water. Um I um it was dark, I was on some change, but but I I floated it and um I have not seen any. Um that was quite uh nearly completely dark. Uh and sometimes and I started to see lights and hi see stars. But it thinks I think it it has been a hallucination, yeah. But you got very bright lights, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Um I remember some that I had headphones on. On the on the one ear uh I heard some uh I cannot um and on the other ear uh some some some people speaking, there were always two or three people around me, uh one who has been a bad guy, uh and yeah. at least one tried to be my friend and I have memories of torture. I do not want to tell here. I don't

No, absolutely. But it's clear that this camp which you looked forward to so much and thought that this is going to change your life. In fact it did, but The it it it immediately it was clear that this is not at all the p prize it's not at all and so

you know, we're talking it's not maybe ritual in the sense of uh satanic religion, but it's ritual in the sense of Torture and murder. Rit uh rituals as well. Uh all because we were we got told that and uh that the government pay forty German marks each day for each of the students, and uh for that we had to do our very best um to um In exchange for that honor.

And there was um you wrote uh that this they told you that if you didn't do your very best enthusiastically that you were betraying the working people of the GDR. Yes, that's true. And that we get punished if we if we do not do our very best. Um in the Pioneer Organization we were trained to accept uh all decisions of the government. that we do not ask any about what they What they told us and and to be um they could exchange one by each other um individuals were not um

Right. You are interchangeable. Yeah. And you also have to keep the secret. Yes. Yes. We have to be keep the secret and They didn't only told us that we had to keep a secret. They have shown us what will happen to us, what could happen to us.

if we like better than that science. Would you mind speaking about maybe the first time that you were shown The first time I was not only shown, I had to participate. Really sorry. Thank you. Good. Just a little comment. A gathering. A gathering. It has been a gathering. Each has to participate. and the bulk together uh or the military ranks arranged. Uh there's been um a stage. with three seats, three stores. Yeah. There was one if they came one person and then And the in the pink.

uh row and a pink um cloak oh and to add cloaks you take seat in front. There were several in black coats. Mm-hmm. And a lot of our own cloaks. So these are cloaks. Yeah. Cloaks. So they were completely okay. Yeah. Covered. Okay. Just like the satanic, you know, this this is just like what I Yeah. Yeah. Um they told us if um they have catch a subject. who has been a member of that camp until who went uh who uh tried to to tell um bad stories about the camp.

But the comrades could catch him and brought him back with punishment. The boy tried to Can you assume this is a boy? A boy is a boss uh fourteen, fifteen years old. And he tried to uh talk with his teacher. In school and the teacher has been An um secret member, a secret uh informer Stasi. For the Stasi for the um sik security police. It was part of the frame. So when you're saying he was tied to a frame, so they asked who would participate in the punishment. And uh nearly each one.

I asked I asked the hand, I said yes. And I didn't and four others didn't. Vi følte at vi havde to stay up in front of the stadium. And they told us that in case of punishment, each Ask about this. these each has to a signal that he will participate to show um Yeah. Allegiance, yeah. Yes. Mhm. To uh to show that they are not coming with that what they did.

And uh if someone would not want to um to participate in punishment, he or she will get Join the one and punish at the same So we had no choice. They told us they would um because we have been ill time, they would accept uh they would forgive us if we do a punishment. We had no ch we had no chance. my experiences in network, except that it seems like it's a much larger gathering. Yes. And it's more public in that sense. You know, it's all secret but it's larger and it's it's um

It's institutionalized more. Yeah. So it's the same tactics though. The same games. And so y yes, I understand. You find yourself suddenly having to um Do horrible things. Yes. And did did I write this correctly? Were you had you been given drugs before? No. No. Not this time. No last. Um eas we have to strip nude. And each one got... One of the black robes beside us. So else what we have to do. Turn black so mad. What's my what's a blade?

Um, here on the back, on the... On the neck. On the neck. Of course it's all... Because this boy is like tied up in a wheel, correct? Uh uh in a frame. In a wooden frame. In a wooden frame, like uh but in a in a state in a in a in a uh like uh on uh St Andrew's cross. En je staat het. To lose the skin on the back. You go on, if you fail, each one of the others will take your place and last the second frame. We had to skin him alive.

That's beyond awful. One girl failed. One girl failed. One minute failed. After Z. We're all still flail. We had to eat some. Oh my god. Okay. You just described everything, all the practices of the network, what they do in the West. What is done? What is done? The the the the craziest things that nobody ever wants to imagine that are being done. And um thank you for speaking, you know. I thank you so much for having the courage to speak and for your for feeling for the victims and for yourself.

I say that their their lives matter, that it's important that we speak, that their they can be honored, no? Because they were alive and they were killed and their lives matter. We all have been sort of way charged. No one was safe. No, that's clear. Well Um I got my glass back and uh it went on as As such things are common. Yeah, once you get your clothes back and everybody pretended nothing had happened. And this time you were not sometimes you were drugged.

Sometimes we read I've not said not that time. Oh not the first time really, because this was your first indoctrination into this it is it has been my f my um my silence um To make sure that I That you never speak, never never try to tell anyone. And um at the end near the end of the camp or a weekend we did an execution. We had to um Is this is this your was this your again a reward, supposedly? Yes. Was this the excursion? Okay. This was the excursion to Namur. Namur in Belgium, yes.

We have an excursion and the senior boy on the whole set. It's an honor to be on an excursion. He had to do it. Had to tell this. Um we were um we came together, few few boys and many girls. Okay. uh had to enter a tr a truck and the truck b uh uh we didn't know where and when we stopped we would have been on an airfield. Uh there was a freight plane. We had to enter the flight plane and were transported to um

took place somewhere. I at this moment we didn't know, then we had to We were told when this when the doors are opened, you uh there are some transporters and you have some trucks, you have to go in immediately. but that track I later figured out that which has been a sick run helped me that Okay, yes, okay, that kinda citrine. I remember those, yes. Um the little vans really without um without um A wall in between the uh Yeah, the driver in the in the back, yeah.

I picked up Namur and just as well as it was. First time I threw the window. We went to a castle, a building, a castle, a brick, a maze of bricks. And um in um in the building beside we had the strip mute And then we were um we got uh a collar. Collar. Yeah, we got the collar. And um they um We got a small um So you were you were tied together by the collar by by chains. Yeah. So you were all nude and you were just like slaves. And then we brought them to the to the party.

The party, because there was a party going. Because you're in Bel I'm sorry, but you know it's what a what a coincidence that it would be in Belgium and Na Namur, which, you know, as we know is the the area where Dutrou was operative, where Mark Dutrou was operative and it's I don't know. Yes, yes. Anyway. And there we have We have we had to entertain. You were basically sex slaves for the sex slaves. We have been sex slaves. We had um Um it's very rough thing.

Extreme. Extreme. I've been trying to last. Sorry. And next morning we got off back. Go to camp. Back in the plane, back in the cargo plane. Back in the back in the truck, back in the train, back in the truck, back in the camp. At the end of the camp the those who wanted well were My parents got...

Tent camps on the um Baltic Sea. Oh um it has been impossible to get. So they thought they were lucky? They were lucky. Five PS in the room. They thought they were really lucky five years in a row and they didn't realize that it was because of you being abused so much. I know that there were some other um

Things that you were used for and it was also through the camp, if I'm not mistaken, that you were not going to this camp just once a year, but it was several times a year, correct? Correct. We had uh eight weeks summer. One week in autumn. Three weeks in winter and one week in spring and uh and some weekends in between. And we had to participate each time. We had no chance to to leave, we had no chance to go everywhere. Once captured. there was only one way out as a dead person

Yes. That's the only way. I understand. And that was made clear right from the start. And there are certain things that you have described that were very particular that had to do with the politics of the time, also international politics. We we have had a carnival. A carnival and um I w in nineteen seventy four and I had to be dressed like a g little girl. And had to behave like a little girl. And you were how old? Huh? You were how old? I was

10 years old. I'm 10. And I was trained in a hotel room. uh well some hidden cameras have been placed and hidden microphones. So you were First you were dressed as a girl for a carnival, but then you were actually had to put those clothes on again and had to act like that again. Yes. And then you were taken to an empty hotel room where they showed you where the hidden cameras were? We were not to show yes, in an empty hotel room. Um and then

Munich, we had the spring and an autumn. So in Munich, the the the trade fair, the trade Leipzig trade fair. The trade fair in Leipzig in in spring and in autumn, one week each. and I was brought there. I had to dress up in the evening, like a little girl. and were brought to by um by a woman who told she would be my my mother but instead it has been an officer of uh the secur of the state security of Stasi uh to one of the um hotels in Leipzig where only people can um

uh can stay who uh could pay in uh in convertible uh currency. Basically foreigners. Only foreigners. Only foreigners. Only foreigners. And there I uh was um sold eat to um customers for one night. They were checked they were chosen before all just um So they handed me over to the customer. She took the money for the night and left and I had to... I have they have abused me.

And these people who bought you, they knew you were a boy. No. They uh they thought they uh they um They got a girl. That I was a girl. Wow. Um because I was completely dressed like a girl. I was painted in the black ago. Wow. And, um... For that they have um I got um a rough use because they were betrayed. And um but I had to make sure that the has happened on the crisis.

Where the hidden cameras have been, where the hidden microphones have been. Oh that was a trap that was the trap. That was a trap. That they would become abu really abusive. Uh that they uh could blackmail the um the customers. But more than Why not just send a girl which they would rape also Um they're already buying a child. Uh they they have um they have used the girls as well. Yes. But mostly older girls.

Because they could become pregnant and then they uh could um then the um it Yeah, you have to pay for it uh not not Or by information. So these people were s often becoming s these foreigners. became spies for the Stasi but through the blackmail. Next morning um when the when the customer sat on the breakfast, two men came to him in in black leather coats. Yeah. And um then um they represented in um pictures of the last night. Yeah.

And then um So do you think that um them being caught with a boy would have been even more embarrassing for them or something? Yes. And um That has happened. Because listen, they did sexually abuse you anyway, right? Yes. Right. So they didn't care in the end. No. Okay, the Ministry of Foreign Trade or you know whatever it is. And a special uh departure uh department called Coco. Commercial uh Something commercial and uh it that department was set up and led by a major of Khazazi.

And what was his name? Uh Alexander Shalk Olotkovsky. Um the pioneer cap. This of course. Yes. So you're in a Stasi camp. Yeah. To become an agent. I have been um I have been a slave. Of the Stasi, of the Coco to make money. How they made money? Make money for uh the GDR. The cocoa was has produced several million Westmorts each year by but one illegal operation. Of course. Um the sex part was w has been one, military had the second and so Drugs? Drugs, prostitution.

For documentation and purpose. We were told we got told. But each has been filmed.

Which then can be frankly sold as a snuff film or something, you know. So this was Germany under Erich Honiger. Yes. Fuck, Erich Honecker has been... Um Hank Hulk. He was a puppet. Yeah. Yeah. M the first man of the GDR has been Erich Mielke. Okay. He has been the boss of the Stasi. Gotcha. he told what has to be done and so So with this socialist state, um you had really a dictatorship and there's lot known about it except none what is always left out is the children.

It's always left out is the s the the child slavery is always left out of it. Yes. I mean they everybody knows about the prostitution except nobody knows about the prostitution in Judea almost forbidden. Except For purpose. Stasi. Yes, yes, well, there's a lot known now. Um but not the child slaver sex slavery and and I mean not just sex slavery but all forms.

And w was the idea do you think did children that were slaves in the pioneer camps was the idea that they would maybe become agents for it for a Stasi also? Well No. Um no. Oh wow, okay. They got used and not so many became old enough. got married. Mm-hmm. They'd chosen the boy and the girl and married them. So they became families for those were taken from from the society and to keep them for some use.

And you have you have actually told me yeah, you've actually got the the numbers are pretty clear in terms of your calculations. So it was Um I I my number have has been four thousand one hundred and nineteen. Right. And uh that twelve years after the pioneer camps were set up or started. then you can calculate that approximately 350 children each year. And we had fifteen departments in East Germany, so you can count twenty-three, twenty-four children of each department each year.

So it was meant that at least fifty percent of the boys reached her fifteenth birthday. That was the point that was the idea behind it even that that half would not survive. And okay, you did touch very briefly on um the girls that were a little older were made pregnant. They demanded. Yeah, they had to be pregnant. They had to get pregnant. They had to get mostly they had to get pregnant by a use of foreign

When I was a boy, they were blackmailed for that one thing that happened. If a girl got pregnant, they could blackmail them. And they could tell you. various clients that they were the father. Yeah. So they could blackmail ten men at once. Yeah. They uh used the same girl um over um during the trade fair. Nine days, nein customers, one girl. And so they had nine um sources they could use to get information and So um okay. I the girl I I started with my first examination and she told

Her name has been Britta. Britta has been uh um not her real name. Not her real name. And um in summer nineteen seventy-five

So now you're... I have been 11. 11. There's been a gathering. A party, not a gathering. A party style. मैंने ब्राउन Ropes. Ropes. Yeah. The money the hop the brown hopes didn't uh anything, and I think they paid only for uh for participating. They pay to participate to be in these um in these horrific rituals, really. Okay. Um there w has been um an installation of two wheels and two uh and three beams in between this you're outside.

Yes, um the party has been outside. Yeah. Um we had no room to do those inside. Um parties have always been um outside uh um on the uh gathering place. Okay. But party it's not like masked ball, it's it's daytime. It i uh that um parties have mostly have been in the evening and Yes, I'm trying to picture it because when you describe The punishment. Yes. So that was in the morning.

Over the day. Over the day. Yeah. And it was also a gathering and people were watching a spectacle on the on the stage. Yes. And so this is a party and these brown robes come and then what would they what do they do? What happens? Yeah. What were they doing? What are when it's you call it a party, what what are people doing? Um we all got some some Naar eens drink. Ok. Orange juice. Ok.

you you couldn't get orange juice in in East Germany, but uh there we you got orange juice or uh or chocolate drink, a real sweet chocolate drink. But there were drugs in it. So each one was uh happy. Um on that there has been a wheel we called it Wheel of Torture. It has been two wheels like uh bicycle wheels. But it has been metal plates. And in between these metal plates. But very large. Very large. Okay, so we got two wheels. Very large wheels. Two point five meters in diameter. Okay.

And in between these um two and a half meters, whereas I would be one seventy, right? So it's so it's that much bigger than me. Okay, gotcha. And in between there have been they could uh place beams. to connect both wheels. The wheels could be made to rotate. By um by hand h by a hand? So they were placed on something so they could rotate from up to down. So it's like this. It's a vertical A vertical rotation.

They could um and this c had could be done by uh by hand, by uh handheld crank. By crank, and this could be done by an electric motor. Okay. Without that um Usually it has been an electric motor for spinning up up and down. For spinning you. Yep. Upside down. Which spinning is I uh you know, I know that a lot of people have experienced it that have survived. SRA but usually it goes

horizontally, so you were spun vertically. Vertically. Okay. With the machine then it goes really, really fast. But this time Okay. This time there have been beams. And um that go better? Because she wasn't she hadn't been pregnant till now. She didn't get pregnant. She didn't get pregnant. She was fifteen years old. She didn't get pregnant. She was put on two beams.

It's so i c again, it's like something like completely outside of her own control. Yes, completely out of her own control. She was tied. And then a boy was s at the same age was called. He was...heartly nervous. So is that these are the beams in between the wheels. And these children are basically tied to those beams in between the wheels. In between the wheels. And she's stretched between Yeah, and he uh and the boy had to uh Orally satisfy her. And then they called four one one nine.

I had to step forward. That's your number. I had to p to pour the I had to grab the crank and had to pour the beer. You if anybody you were close to at all in the camp, it was Britta. Yeah. And she was fifteen and you were eleven. Yes. So that was on purpose that you were called? Um Then they uh this uh then they ordered me to stop, put something on the um something metal on the on the on the wheel. I didn't

I couldn't see at this time because um they did it there. There was the pla the wheel and I stood on the other side. And then they um I had to go on. And that's the last I remember. I have um big um gaps a gap in in in memories. Next morning I So I went up early in the morning. I didn't know if I had slept uh during the night. on I was on the way to the toilets where beside the behind the the gathering um pla place and the the wheel stod there What a coal.

The thing that they placed on the wheels. They had had they did two things. They placed uh uh like a skirt uh on the wheel, a skirt around the tower's waist. And they had a code file under the wheel. Um in between what was raised and the end of The Boy. From her waist down? Down. And for the boy completely. The boy completely. They were burned. There are most, but most of the lot. And when I the boy was dead, m mm I thought but I thought I felt Brita was not completely there.

Because she was the from here down she wasn't burnt. No. My goodness. Um I acted without thinking. I took the knife. and cut the curves on both sides. Because we were at we are trained in anatomy to um torture without um not later. Not lethal. Right. But this time you knew that you also knew how to kill quickly. I I want to quick to

Make sure that uh she went quickly um to the other side and uh did not suffer anymore. And then I ran away. I ran away from the camp. Um I came to a motorway and tried to suicide to throw me uh in front of of a track. I missed I missed the second time. First time has been when I was line. How? I was brought to the police and from the police they took me, picked me up and brought me back to the camp I got.

I came back to the camp and I first what I had to do was um to write a letter to my parents. to beg for pardon and um I had to Write down something about... and write down my test on it. Oh, your will? Your last will? Yeah, my last bit. And then they started interrogation. White white white uh everything white. Everything white. Mm-hmm. Tiles. Tiles. On the floor, on the walls, no door, and very bright light from above. I don't know how long I've been there.

Um I was put in the coffin they um went me brought me to uh out of the white garment. To a graveyard. opened the grave of a offer of a child, opened the coffin, put me into the coffin and bury buried. Um and so again, I'm sorry to say, but again I this is not uncommon in the satanic families and the children and the people that I speak with have often

I have personally did not experience this, but I have often heard survivors that have experienced exactly that. So somehow somebody's got the same handbook, you see. It's very strange or interesting at the very least that these the tactics that are used by the Shtazi are the same that are used by The people that are practicing this all over the world in secret. Yes.

Um so you were buried with the body of a child in the grave. Mr. Rotten. When Mr. Rotten died. She was rotten and was the bury the body was rotten.

And um I came back to the camp. H you don't know how you got out? Um they brought me some um back. Uh the senior boy of the room said uh he has not expected I returned. Uh I have been very poor sleep. Of basically non stop torture. Yes. This ye in this summer at the end near near to the end, I was ordered for a new ex exercise uh excursion. Oh it started in the mornings of course. Not common because most started in the evening.

And it has been a lot of boys and a lot of few girls. Unusual then also. Very unusual. So m the bus came, we th we we took our our seats, we were twenty children in the bus. 40, full bus had been 40, but only we saw we had taken our seat in the middle, not on the window in the middle. We have to have a... Some of us. Pass the track point. And then we got order to strip mute in the bus.

um put uh our dress beside us and uh metal plate also. That was very unusual. You never took off your metal dog tags. Yeah. Um we then the bus stopped. We had to go out. There were other buses, a lot of children, a lot of adults around. Thank you. Um then we were mixed and the trucks came and we had to enter the trucks twenty children and two um Uh two trainers are armed with a machine gun. We were brought to several places, somewhere in the woods. We had to go out.

And then one of the trainer told us and we had um a lot of games in the uh in the camps like um policemen uh try to catch uh thieves as the thieves that that was happened uh in in the camps very often. Mm. We we do hear the uh similar to it, but today we have a hunting game. And um we have we don't have deers. You are the deers. You have No. Run. Um the hunt us will stop in thirty minutes. Thirty minutes. Yes.

Um they were may maybe uh two or three kilometers away so we uh then they would start a little bit later. Um and one boy said he hates such game.

Um if um each time you got catch And if he wouldn't, he don't want to run. Okay. He sat down on the ground and land the tree. And then one of the criminals who cares. Sjöngen. Sjöngen. Kalashnikov. Cashikoff. In Western world uh AK forty seven. Yes, but we had in in in the camp we had uh a similar but with small caliber. Okay. Uh with small uh shells. Okay. That was made in in this was produced in GDR. Okay. So um from outside

And shot the boy in the head. And just got splashed up. Splashed. Like if you have dropped a melon. And then AK-47. And then he shouted, run. And then we have... I had I I came across uh I came on I came to a creek. I tried uh I thought um if I get over the creek I'm I'm safe. I jumped. I jumped myself. I landed in a lot of mud.

Uh it took a lot of power to uh crawl out of that mud, but it has been more lucky The mud on my body and when I crawled out I took a lot of uh of of grasses and uh trees and uh something got stuck to you. Yeah, stuck on me. I ran and ran and ran and I heard something. I felled into um into a hole. Um there was some dry wood around, I put it took it over me. Um I heard Um foot foot I heard some walking near. They should maybe one meter away. I heard some lighting some um cigarettes.

And then when they left, they didn't notice I'm that close. You knew not to move. You knew not to move. Yeah. Not to move. Don't. The sun must go dark while it was sunset. And um I didn't know what what to do now and then um a call of um of speakers, loudspeakers, screw the wood, uh the hunt is over, the tone back. It was a big poetry.

So basically you're telling me about the hunt and you know, I have other survivors, you know, that have also experienced that I've myself experienced um witnessed ones, experienced ones. Um but then usually that's it. Like that's the event. So you're saying now after this hunt. There was more. There was more. After the hunt.

It bec um so now we we can we can assume that several several children have been killed. Yes, several children got killed. And we were twenty um tr started and twelve were a child. We had we hadn't been sex, we had to have sex, we were abused. Hm by we had to do sex with each other. Mm. We had to do sex with necros sex with those forgotten. Oh no. We had to we had uh we have been used by the animals. And buy the pepper potato. Absolute complete departure.

And these were also these people who were screaming and who were then ta taking part, uh were they Stasi also? Or were these other kinds of people? Um I did not know who, who, what the hunters have been. It has been in a room, in an area, in a restricted area, called Shorfhider. That was in Schaufheide? Yes. That was the private residence of Perich Honecker. Not only. It has been a two hundred square kilometers restricted area.

Oh, 200 square kilometers, so very big. Yes, it's a very big area of wood, of forest, some lakes. of Eric Milter. Yes. The Weekend House of Aleksandr Szaikonutkovsky and a lot of more. Gotcha. So it was of course government. It has been government. It was a government uh residence or uh r uh hunting launch, you could say. And uh they had n it was um they had no deals in in that that shoot that was used. by Goering and Goebbels before and then they changed it to the

Took over by um By the by the socialists. By the socialists, they did the same. And they did the same things. Wow. Um I had to participate several subjects. Yes. Yes, every time, you know, every time you were also whatever for whatever reason also that instead of you being put on a stage and tortured to death after you ran away, You were tortured to the

Extensively but then returned. Yes. So returned and and then uh to the hunting game and or and back and to the next hunting game and to an excursion uh to be used, uh When I became older, um I was not um as a little girl as a little uh girl uh on the on the fair trades and my trade fairs, yeah. My um my job changed from being uh abused by to um To blackmail as a present for a special um

with the words here's here's your uh toy for tonight. If you damage it you have to pay for it. So so basically they said If you pay, you can damage it, you just have to pay. So that's there's just a price. So I'm assuming that you were damaged. Yes. It ended with a broken um with broken boat. Hmm my dick and my balls into um And to a bag with um Ms. Trunk. Oh, with lime. With lime. Right. Um I was knocked out by pain. Then I So that was their toy. Yeah. That was their game. Yes.

My goodness. So I want to um begin to direct us to um Because you did obviously you're sitting here and you're able to speak about it and thank you that you are. You know, I do hope that other survivors, um Will come forward. You're even now speaking to other survivors of the GDR, the same ex i experiences that you had. Can you because um it is amazing that you're alive, would you mind telling us briefly how you you got out?

Well, um in nineteen eighty my So now you're eighteen? Uh I have been um sixteen. Sixteen. Sixteen years old. My father Web puzzles, puzzle. lived in Unterlus, uh near ha in between Ham Hanover and Hamburg. In West Germany. And he was very uh he got a note from the doctor of my of my my other grandpa said he was very ill and my father got permission

I wrote to him to visit him last for ten days. Okay. Because he has a wife and he had two children and they they were they were sure he would help. Right. Well, my father talked with me and my and my mother. But he liked to use that chance to look if we can s the the rest. He wanted you all to escape. رن We want to escape but without um the punishment of the um of the government. Sure. Because uh only preparation preparation to leave the GDR

was punished by fifteen years in prison. And there's spies everywhere because everyone was a spy. Yeah. Yeah. So um we got the Telex after a couple of days he m he became ill and he couldn't couldn't The telegram um was uh the sign He looks forward. Then um several weeks later we became we became we got a second we got a second um Telex that he will not return. Well, the Tilix we got the Tilix. Not the starting. We got. And that was the first mistake the the the the the postal office did.

Then we went to the Stasi. We had to sit here. I give a note, I give a note. Um they offered my mother to be divorced instantly because they counted his Absence um Absence uh as a flight. As a as an escape. Not a flight. Flucht. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is a flight also. As an as an escape. But my mother did not accept it. He revenge Berlin to a loyal foge.

Who did um all the um paperwork? Huh? Paperwork? Uh not only the paperwork, he was the only one who uh uh did uh Or uh that that people could uh emigrate from the GDR into the West into West Germany. In exchange for um payment of the G of the of uh West Germany. West Germany paid uh for each one approximately ten thousand German locks. What is this? When, when, mother? did the application for my for for herself, my sister and me. I became I had to I became a boss.

I became a boss for the government. Right. Um you mean a risk? No. Uh They they wanted you I a boy You became valuable. I became very very valuable. Um A boy of 16 years couldn't be paid for such anymore. Oh, you became a burden. Huh? Yes. Because you would have been a burden, you would have p cost them too much as a sixteen year old boy? No, uh as a as a sixteen they um we got we got pa they got paid by um

Uh-huh. To uh to abuse us. Right. Yes. But at sixteen you were aged out. Yes, I was I was aged out. So you were now a burden that you would cost them. and for that if they can get 7000 Of German mugs. Also the the government was paid. It was slave trade again. I mean in a way to free you you could be free but they would get paid and so they take the money so they don't have to pay for you. Yes.

And uh for that I must leave. Wow. Through this lawyer who was paid by Vogel in Berlin. Berlin. Who was being paid by uh uh West German Germany? to basically buy people out. Yes. And then the only reason they agreed is because you aged out. Yes. Okay, wow. And then um it took s you know we had to wait. The Stasi has told us we will never make it. Okay. But after three and a half years, we got... No permission. To leave GDR.

Into the west, up to the west. Very uh that that saved my life. And then I um I try to forget. Sure. I try to forget all about uh GDR was history. Yeah. In nineteen nine in nineteen eighty seven. Yeah. I started with my study. When I left East Germany I went to school. To get a... Your diploma? To get a... the s the school record so they could start a study and then in nineteen eighty seven I started with my study. Uh huh and each each student get an immatriculation number.

And my inmatriculation number has been eight eight seven four one nine. Slowly memories come back. You know, I started getting memories in n nineteen eighty seven also. Not in 1987 directly, but... Okay. But you got that number which was like boing that hit you. Whereas in nineteen eighty seven I had uh there is a smell. that just suddenly triggered a flashback which I just pushed away again. Pushed a but it started then. It started slowly, um with flashbacks or something. Yeah. Um

Um said couldn't be real and uh For sure not. Right. And uh it went on and on and on and in nineteen ninety eight. Make suicide. You couldn't uh I say try to reach back to the um to the network and um if that happened, um kill yourself and lie ahead and I went into a psychiatric clinic. I stayed I spent there eight eight weeks and then I had a therapy um for four years.

Finish and came out including that was my car that was there as it was omnipresent and I started to write down quite hard on my memory stone. I couldn't speak out but I could write, could write. And each time I had a flashback I w I wrote it down. Mhm. So um in the The first time I A frame with some pieces of a mirror and a lot of pieces of the mirror on the ground. Sure. And I started to put, I tried to put those together.

Then came in 2018. message on uh on T V that um the Belgian government thought about uh Marc Dutroux and just to be clear Marc Dutrou so is the Belgian Network pimp, let's just be clear, who uh became the case for whom, you know, in nineteen ninety six was supposed to blow up the network, except that After eight years of a trial being prepared and many witnesses being ch dying in strange circumstances. everything that was network related initially was reduced to him, Marc Dut.

Except that in twenty eighteen. Go ahead. So there was there was a case that by the way, the network that I First started in was the network of the That was talked about when Mark Dut was caught, when four bodies of little of girls were found. Um okay. So Marc Dutrou was in the news in twenty eighteen. In twenty eighteen and then uh a lot of memories came back. It was because he was in the news because why? Because

His lawyer was pleading to get him out of jail. He should be released from jail, they said. Yes, and that um caused a lot of flashbacks, a lot of memories came back. Um it has been very diffic for my wife very f very difficult during the night. I I screamed, I I kicked, I Uh and she had a blue eye from uh my um and the next morning I I couldn't remember any. And in two th um we were it book we were both short.

um before uh divorce and in twenty nineteen um on a ride in a car, I stopped the car and told her about my history. Yes, and I wanna bring up one more thing that's really important. because um the role of Andreas you found out much later that it was this Andreas, the pedophile that was your f supposedly your friend when you were bullied in school. that he really was the reason that he was the one who basically got you into

He was the one not who g who brought me into who he was the one who gave them the information. There's a boy. Um he is alone. Then um He's a good candidate. He's a good candidate. He has no no close friends. Uh his parents are not uh do not take uh the care uh as as it should be. Right. It it is it might be uh uh easy um Easy to catch him. Gotcha. So he was an informant for the Stasi. Yes.

And th and the other really important thing I want to just um if you wouldn't mind, you know, closing out Um you testified before a committee That's a governmental committee from, you know, the the Federal Republic of Germany now. And that heard your that that is interested in gathering these testimonies. Yes, I um it has it um was set up in two thousand sixteen. Yes. Um after they had um a huge um case. Of Catholic Church and

uh in the best to uh Münster. Okay. And then um they started to investigate and um collect uh reports of um of survivors. It was set up by the government and it's an independent commission. Um they are PEOPLE WHO HAVE STUDIED SUCH, BUT THERE ARE ALSO SURVIVORS. And they started to collect these reports and they and the main politic says we believe you. You don't have to prove any. That you sit here and talk with us, or that you write your hist your history down and send it to us is proof enough.

That has been the first time but I did on that I did a gigmas page. That I took to the testimony someone else. That was my wife. And I I'm very, very sorry. That's the main reason uh my wife is here, um, to listen to interview. So I do not want any um any secrets for her. Last time in 2020 I thought You wanted to protect her from it. Tried to protect her, but Uh f um looking back now it was a mistake. Well she can handle it. Yeah. Yeah. You didn't lose her. No. I didn't lose her. Oh

A lot of my... My behavior... We figured out that I have... Uh dissociative identity disorder. Yes. Um when my wife saw what said to me, uh we have uh we have talked about they do not remember. lot of mistakes and uh misunderstoods. Well now you you do have um you do have the cause. You both know the cause and you're still working on yourself and I do wanna Um close this up, but I just want to ask you if there's anything that you would really like to share before we end.

Is there anything you'd really still feel you need to share before we close? It is difficult for staff to talk about the memories Um it is like uh you have a bound have a bound, have a cut, and you uh uh and each time you um You talk, you pull it up and it's opened again, but a little bit smaller. So long it's down. It's a healing process that you learn to speak it out. In English, no less. In German as well as in English. And um It becomes easier if...

I um if I do it more and more. And um it is a good for uh for survivors who do not Dare maybe. Uh who who cannot uh speak it out now. Write it down uh and share it share it with people who can read it. Then um The the perpetrators told us. We do not have to talk about They have not talk uh talk told us we do not have to write it down. That's true. And that's that helped me me. It helped a lot to write it down, so I could share. And um

shared with other survivors. So um that and for me it was the survivors have been in the same network. And I hope that others could step out of the shadow in the light. Yes. A light tower. Yes. I follow a light tower in the dark, stormy night. Yes. Um, yeah. Awesome. Um who she even if the person was she herself would be a small beam of light in a dark cave. That's from my book.

The small beam in the dark cave is from your book. But it isn't a small beam. It is a light tower in the stormy night. Oh, thank you. Um well, thank you. Yeah, we make right. Oh yeah. Very thank you for that beautiful, beautiful compliment and um that's my honor. I'm so glad to be here with you today. See you again. And thank you to give is that you give me the opportunity opportunity to give that interview. That's my great pleasure. So yes, thank you for your courage in speaking out and uh

Yes. Very, very grateful and uh yes, let it uh let many people hear it and write write it down. Okay. Thank you, S.