#12 Anneke Lucas with Dr. Alison Miller

Hello and welcome to this new episode of my podcast. I'm Annika Lucas and before I introduce my guest I just want to let you know that I travel to beautiful British Columbia for this interview. It is really gorgeous here. There's an ocean behind us. I do like to speak to people in person. I think that we get farther by doing that, uh, rather than just doing it online and um

I do want to ask you, obviously it's not for free. Uh not just travel but also of course the wonderful uh technical uh things that are involved here. I pay for them out of pocket. So These conversations are I think important and I really hope that you can support me. Uh you can just go to my website and support or in this um if you're on YouTube you can just go to the link.

And I really um appreciate any small contribution, any large contribution, anything that you um, you know, if you see like this content and you would like to support it, I would really, really appreciate it. So I traveled here to uh v visit my mentor. So this is not an interview with a survivor, but with a provider.

And this is Alison Miller. And Alison is someone who has been in the field Um well she was a clinical psychologist for forty years and the last twenty five years of her career were spent specifically working with survivors of ritual abuse and mind control. So she is a specialist that is known the world over, not only for what she specialized in, but also for the books that she wrote. and that are very helpful for providers and survivors everywhere. So I just want to show you her book.

um since they are uh he it's they are so important. So the mystifying mind control and ritual abuse, which is a manual for therapists. Then this is a book that she wrote with Wendy Hoffman, who is a survivor from the trenches. then this is a book that Allison wrote for survivors. This is called Becoming Yourself.

And then the book that was, I believe, the first one that um was out there for a really, really long time and has been a very important manual for so many people, uh, really written for providers, but read by so every people all over and and that is of course healing the unimaginable. So it's a treating ritual abuse and mind control. So it's really focused on providers, but again, it is um such a wealth of experience that Allison brings to us and

Um just feeling extremely grateful to have her here and to have this interview. So Allison, thank you for being here.

I feel inspired to talk about the covers of some of these books. Absolutely. I'll bring'em back. Yes, bring them back because the covers mean something to me. The first one I did was Healing the Unimaginable. And I showed this particular one to a client of mine and she said, that's me. Because this is the unimaginable experience and you look at that little girl and that is what people have gone through when they're very, very tiny.

More than just that. The second one, becoming yourself, is for survivors and it has a seagull because that's an image of hope. You can fly on your own wings. You don't have to be controlled anymore. And uh from the trenches that's more of a blurry thing, but because it's when you're in the trenches doing this work, whether you're a provider or a survivor, you're

Y you're kind of in the trenches and you can't sometime some of the time you can't see out. It's hard work. And then this one demystifying mind control and ritual abuse. A survivor Jen Callow did the cover. picture and it shows her all the different parts of her split off by the abuse that she encountered and then coming together as an internal half.

Oh thank you. Thank you. Oh, so she drew her entire family, yes, and of course um before we get into, you know, the engineered personality systems and having you speak about that which, you know, um you came and spoke for us, uh, for our workshop that I do together with Christina Merkley, our online courses um on shifting to power and you gave a an amazing presentation on engineer personality systems. And so very grateful

for your for your presentation there. But before that I would actually like to ask you, um, if you wouldn't mind Speaking about yourself, but really starting at the very beginning, your childhood and what led you to become a clinical psychologist and ultimately to work with survivors. Yes, I had no idea about child abuse.

I didn't know there was any such thing. When um you know, when I first worked in the mental health system, I remember seeing a uh th this was the time that they were talking about dysfunctional families and I had learned a whole lot about that and I saw a cartoon which is there's a door to a great big auditorium and on the door it says adult children of Of functional families. And you look inside the door and there's one person in the room. I was actually that one person.

Well, and my siblings. I came from a lovely family with kind, gentle parents who affirmed me for being who I am. Wow. And that's how that all started. And I was interested in what makes human beings tick. I just always wanted to know that kind of thing.

went to university and all the things that I was good at were not things I wanted to work at particularly so I got into psychology by a series of mishaps that I was afraid to stand up to the head of the department when he wrote all over my course card because he won everybody wanted me in their program. And I went took psychology courses and I listened to that stuff and I thought, this is nonsense. I don't believe any of this.

And all the way through this we got the categories of mental disorders and I looked at this and Started to write papers. I each stage I wrote a papers on what's wrong with the classic And so when you said I don't believe any of this, are you talking about the diagnoses basically? And even a little rather than a response, an illness rather than a r a a response to to to trauma. Almost everything is trauma.

I grew up. Trauma is behind everything and they didn't know anything about trauma then and most of them still don't know. In the psychology department they didn't know anything about trauma. That's how it was. Mind you it was a long time ago, but I still that is still a problem. Continues to be. So anyway I went through um as far as a master's degree and then I got a scholarship to take me to India and lived there for f four years, two years, um

as a student and two years counseling university students and I wanted that to broaden my viewpoint and understand things. I didn't learn a lot in the studies, but I learned a lot by being in Indiana. And then came back and uh decided and was working counseling students in Canada and then there were people I didn't understand.

Th I I developed my own sort of way of counseling people when I was doing this work with students, but there were some people I didn't understand. I thought, why don't I understand these people? What is it? And I decided to go back

to graduate school, thinking that graduate school would give me more understanding. What it gave me basically was a meal ticket. It's very useful to have a PhD and be able to be registered in an organization because then you get respected for that. But I didn't learn a lot even in Green. And I do respect you for that. Especially a doctor who then holds on to their integrity. I yeah, I guess so.

That's true. And then my first real job was with mental health services in child and youth mental health. And I looked at what was happening and there were a bunch of psychologists who sat in little offices and they talked one to one with children who were supposed to be disturbed, or sometimes with a parent who was trying to cope with that child and I looked at this and I thought, Yeah, something's not right here. I'm not gonna sit a little office and try and convince a kid to talk to me and I

Um, I think a lot of the issues are parenting. So then I went into the parenting field, and that was my first calling. and I did a lot of work. I developed parent education programs that grew and grew and became bigger. I did books on this with my colleague Alison Reese, books called Side Stepping the Power Struggle and um

the parent child connection. And I do understand that you were actually known in this field here in the area. I was very well known in this area for doing that, that's right. And y my colleague continues those programs nowadays, yeah. looking at family systems and abuse and what affects people in their parenting and then the parenting of course affects the child. So I did all that work.

So while I was doing that work, my first consciously known survivor of organized abuse was a young woman who came into a parenting program. She had a two year old child. And I did not understand this woman, but she became obsessed with me. She wanted to see me all the time. She'd f lurk in the hallways and wait for me to come out of my office to go to the bathroom or something like this. I why is she so obsessed with me? She she wanted me to be her mommy really. And it was

Yeah, it was very challenging and I didn't understand her. She got the diagnosis of death, borderline personality disorder. You know, dreadful diagnosis. Just means that you're different ways at different times. And she kept talking to me about her inner child.

And I thought, Oh, inner child. I've heard about that. It's a California thing. It's a one it's w it's one of those new fads. You know, everybody's got an inner child. You know, all these fads rise in California and people think they have inner children. and stuff like this. And then one day her inner child stole a wheelchair from the hospital that my clinic was attached to and rolled it all around the place, um, having doing kitty play w on this wheelchair.

and when she was confronted by hospital staff she told them she was my employee. So then I thought, oh, this is interesting. And I got to know and she was my first doorway into this world of ritual abuse and mind control, what she'd been through.

And shortly after her came a bunch of others who were um, two or three of them who were part of the same satanic cult which was local, and the reason why they were all at my mental health center was the it the cult had the same catchment area as the mental health center.

And so uh there was this young woman, there was a young man who was diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic, and then when I moved to a different center but in the same area, there was a a teenage girl um, who came in because of having sexually abused her younger brother. And all these were the first three I had and

It's a story you can read it in Healing the Unimaginable if you want to, but it was it was the life I was dealing with understanding these people. They not only had or terrible organized abuse in their background, they were still currently involved. All of them. So involved meaning that either they were being victimized or they were also being at their age were also being um used for everything, for also perpetrating. Correct.

Yes, they were being victimized and they were also being used for perpetrating or being part of groups. They went to all the regular meetings and things like this and

Yeah. Oh, they went to meetings. They went to meetings. I mean uh this was a satanic cult and uh they have they have regular dates when they have meetings, just kinda like churches. You go to church and you go to the cult meeting and uh You know you're all there and So what I understand from the satanic uh the satanic groups is that there's often different levels and layers and that certainly not everybody is involved with the abuse.

Was this different? These were all people who were born into it. So they were born into it and it was a cult or was it not open to everybody? Not everybody could join? I I think there's li people can join at If adults want to join, they can sort of be at the fringes of the group and maybe attend some meetings, but they're not at the really core event.

So when they're not at the core events they don't really even know maybe what happens there? No, they don't know what happens. There's a lot of things that they don't know. But these people were all members of this. And actually, yes, I mean people I've worked with since have way more complicated uh systems designed by different kinds of networks and perpetrator groups, because there's lots of them.

But the ones that I started kind of cut my teeth on as it were, you know, are ones that are just was uh pure Satanism and they were part of this city. And they were part of a local cult, but do you feel or do you know from their experiences that they were also connected to other groups? They were this local cult was uh the whole Pacific Northwest, the serpent. It was all over the Pacific Northwest. The serpents? Yeah. Who was the called the serpent?

Yeah, there were other such groups. And of course then there's the bigger groups which are you know, the ones that come from the European elite and uh which I believe was your own experience, you know, where they don't necessarily have as much satan if there's satanic stuff it's usually just kind of trappings to make it look scary but As if it weren't scary enough just going through the abuse.

Yeah. Well yes, um I didn't my experience was not like a satanic cult at all. It was more like political and it was r run by the r royalty who were the old um nobility that were involved with the satanic things, but I wasn't exposed to that. I was only I was exposed to extreme sadism in the beginning. In Belgium, uh with the nobility and I was involved in the political blackmail system.

Oh yes. Do you want to say a little about that?'Cause that is I believe is happening right now. It's well it's happening for sure, but that political blackmail system was very straightforward. It was just using children to and I was trained or I was told more. It wasn't so it wasn't so sophisticated at the time. Um so we're talking sixty nine to really seventy two, the first years in the network in Belgium.

I was told to make the men feel comfortable but also how to position them so they would be on camera because there was a hidden camera in the room. So I was then, you know, told that this was a new that it this was his first time. And I, as a six, seven, eight-year-old, had to make him feel comfortable. So that was my those were my directives, though that was very clearly for um political blackmail or political and other the the these were anybody who wanted to climb.

that entered into that club, that secret club, whether it was through the Freemasons or through another way. Uh they they they well and anyone who was they were already triaged as well. You know, I didn't get everybody because not everybody would be open to that.

I guess it's a standard technique. I didn't run into that in the beginning of my work but Right. So you were on the other side, really the satanic side, where is the satanic culture that were born into it? But then people came to me. A lot of people move move to the far west to get away from whatever's happening in the east and so

I got people with all kinds of backgrounds over the years. Basically I worked with these first few that were Sat had the Satanist background. I didn't um I didn't have much background. There wasn't training. I mean at that point Th there were therapists doing this work and we were ha giving each other handouts of things that we had learned and then you'd get a handout from an that it was written by another therapist and you'd sort of evaluate it to see what they had learned and

No studies. Trauma word was not in there then, it was just dissociation. But I joined that and the first meeting I went to was wonderful. It was like people were talking about all this stuff in the hallways of conference. There were presentations about what kind of abuse happened and where and lots of things like this. Um, at that conference I met the woman who's got a piece in Healing the Unimaginable called uh we c I call her Stella Katz, that was her chosen pseudonym.

and she was a actually had worked as a programmer in one of the uh training things and they trained for a lot of different networks. I met her at that conference and she taught me a lot and I just kept uh kept on meeting people and learning things. that way. And then what happened is all the s all the therapists in town who were getting survivors sent them to me because they didn't want to be able to do it.

And so then I would learn from whoever. But they did send them to you because I met therapists that didn't want to go there at all and they wouldn't send me anywhere. They just didn't want to know. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Mae'r rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Mae'r rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Mae'r rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Sometimes they got burned out but they didn't know the skills they had learned and their training didn't help them work.

But my background because I was born in England, I grew up somewhere, I moved a lot as a kid, I spent time in India and so on. My background was in experiential learning rather than book learning. I I took the stuff out of the books, I wrote put it on exams, but I I wanted to just learn from people and from experience and make my own draw my own conclusions. So it it was fine to me to work with people and learn from them.

And what is the timing is also very interesting'cause you started working with um survivors, um network survivors in ninety one, which was just about the time when the false memory movement Found its rise.

My SSTD meeting was wonderful. The next year I went to the conference and everything had changed. They were starting to sue. There were lawsuits against therapists. and complaints to the licensing bodies and everything closed down.

And yes, they talked about dissociation, but they didn't talk about organized abuse. Nothing like this. We whispered to each other in the hallways we couldn't talk about it anymore. It wasn't on it wasn't on the menu because people were therapists were so scared, even the ones working with the association.

They really false memory people really scared to be labeled. They were scared to be labeled as conspiracy theorists as people conspiracy theorists. That's the big fear, labeled a conspiracy theorem. Suggestions to their clients suggested that they had um undergone something that we know no human being ever goes through, you know. Right. And also, you know, I did a why would a therapist

Suggest it to some of their clients but not all of their clients, these crazy things? Yes, that's a good question. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it isn't therapist suggestion. For the most part. I mean I can't say there's never been any therapist suggestion. Um I mean there are some therapists who are trying to work. Yeah. Yes, there are. But but in general it it's not something that a that comes into your head.

Uh n of course not. Why would it? Yeah. It it doesn't it I mean, even when it comes into our head we're like, No, this is not possible. This can't possibly be true. That's true. And you're trained to independent. And then we're trained to to stay there, but yeah. But it's also natural that something so extreme when it comes back and there's no context for it. In my case there was really no context. Yeah. So then you're like, Well, you don't want it to be true?

And and why would it be true? Because it's so extreme. It's it's a wonderful cover I think because it is so extreme. That's right. Yeah. It is so extreme. I know. Yeah, it was all shocking. I mean, sexual abuse was just starting to come out of the closet and around nineteen ninety and people were starting to realize that there was such a thing as children being sexually abused by family members and

That was kind of shocking in itself. But this stuff had been going on for so long and nobody had recognized that it was happening. It it wasn't part of everyday life. Nobody had any context to deal with. Right. Yeah. So also understandable I also understand the denial of it. I mean because of the the shocking I mean, I I think someone who is a normal person would never imagine that these other people could be doing things that are so awful and then let alone to children.

That's right. And that's still happening, that uh people, you know, can't believe they don't want to we don't want to believe it. We don't want to believe this these extreme things.

But you were talking to the survivors or to people that were involved in some way that were still caught in it. So I'm guessing that this is very challenging'cause sometimes as you n may know I'm also working as a provider and when someone's still in it, it's actually quite challenging to work with them. It is very challenging. But one of the things that's happened to me,'cause I started the work at the time when the false memory stuff was really big, was I had corroboration.

Because these people, my first clients, were members of the same satanic cult group, the same coven of that group, or whatever, they backed one another up. They were telling me the same things, the same current events as well as some of the same past events, all kinds of things I ev and I came to know the identities of the perpetrators. and so on because because there was more than one of them.

at the same time. And so, you know, if there'd been just one person, I would think, oh, maybe this person is just really uh crazy. You know, maybe they're hallucinating and imagining all kinds of ridiculous things. But when I have a bunch of different people telling me this Awful, awful stuff, I have to pay attention. Yeah. And turned out, you know, that they all already knew each other, but I didn't know that at the start. Oh, they did know each other. They knew each other in the cult.

But then since then I had others who were not part of that cult. They came from different parts of the country or other countries and they had uh the group the perpetrator groups had been different. Yes, so I'm just gonna put your books here. Um So basically originally these clients that you were having, they were corroborating each other's stories because they knew each other from within.

That's right. Yes. From that from being part of that satanic group. Yes. They were because they were part of the same satanic group, so they were in So they were so they were meeting each other outside but you didn't realize that Yes, for some people Satanism is a religion. And I know there were some presenters from California who actually came up and did a workshop at the Justice Institute in B C. Um and they talked about um

this kind of organized abuse. And they said that a lot of the people that they were treating down there in California actually were still involved in these abuser groups. And I thought, what? And she said they w they're involved but they don't know they're involved because the person is split into different parts. They are dissociative

and one part is in the b uh the group and the other part doesn't even know that they're part of it. And that may happen. They get picked up at night. And I asked my clients about this. And the young man said, Oh yeah, I've I sort of can see myself standing on, you know, at midnight on the corner waiting for them to pick me up and take me out to something what? And then it started to come out that they were still involved, that it was still happening, that it was ongoing.

involvement because Satanism, like Christianity or anything else, it's a religion. It has its meetings, it has its dates, it has all the it has its regular activity. Some of its activities are pretty horrible, especially for children, but that's what it is.

So they had these, you know, um personalities systems and just personalities that didn't know um, you know, the existence of the other And yes, I know that's your specialty. I really want to hear about that. But also since you basically twenty five years of your career as a clinical psychologist was working with these people, you were saying You are really were getting not only the people from the local cult, but you were really getting people from all over the world. I was.

And I s I started to feel like every person had something to teach me. If you look at my first books you will see pieces by different survivors who were basically almost all of them people who came to came to where I was and they and came to Victoria and then they looked for a therapist and I was the person who did it in Victoria and so

I listened to them and the more I listened the more I learned about how it worked and you know they were from different groups and had different experiences, but but there were commonalities. And they weren't all Satanists at all. There were all kinds of things. But there were, as you mentioned for yourself, political groups, there were yeah groups that want to rule the world, which

Well the mind control and you worked a lot with survivors of mind control is not religious. It's but it it is often part of Satanism but not always and it is really run you know, a lot of people that I work with are, you know, were from military families that ended up um being used in these programs.

I think of it all being mind control, not just the military ones. Yes, the CIA have done a bunch of mind control stuff. They had an MK Ultra, MK Sons for mind control. Yes, and one of my clients uh Uh one of my early cry clients, Trish Fatheringham, who has pieces in my books, talks about the mind control that she experienced that You know, she was part of a druidic cult actually. Her parents were part of that, but they but her dad took her down to the military base.

it was a special thing and she was getting this special training. Yeah, pretty Awful stuff. And so there was that. But but I started to realize that all of it, including the satanic stuff or whoever it was, is mind control'cause what they do. I mean mine they there were experiments on mind control with adults and those have been the results of those have been released and are public and everybody knows they tried to do these things with adults.

But some people, including s particularly Mengelee, Joseph Mengelee, with the Nazis in the concentration camps, experimented with using babies. using infants and children and they found you can control a mind way better if you start with an infant. You can do all kinds of things. Essentially, my understanding of what it is is the brain is a a chemical and electrical set of circuits.

and they mess with the circuitry of the brain. There's a a circuit s like I'm talking from a particular circuit in my brain right now. This is me. But if something really, really terrible happens to me, to this me, It's like I go completely blank and I don't know what to think and then there's a teachable part of me that comes out that knows nothing. All they will have to do is they're going to do whatever it is that keeps them alive at that moment.

Now if you start with an infant you can break up the the circuitry of the brain and create new circuits Split them off, split the circuitry until you get the one that will do what you want. Uh one uh client of mine recently uh described it as it's like sharpening a pencil and shaving everything off till you get the little tiny point that you want that will do what you want. And what they want.

the perpetrators want the child to do is never good. It always seems to involve sex, but it also involves many, many other purposes, but all of them dark. Yes, that's correct. the sexual abuse is a major part of the training and sexual training to compromise people like you went through, that kind of thing. There's a lot of that, but there's lots of other things. Yes, kids are t they're taught to kill, they're taught to

to harm their taught yeah, they're taught various methods of assassination and things like this. They become drug couriers, they become all kinds of um things.

As you're saying that it's like I'm just seeing like the underbelly of the whole world and society, which is really still running this way because of this. And

I always thought that this truth is the key to understanding why things don't get better, you know, why the world is the way it is. I think that's true. This has been happening Uh for at least the last uh what, hundred, two hundred years maybe, it started w it started with occult religions but then it spread into political things and and people learned how to

manipulate this way what they did to children. European, Germanic child rearing. You know my almost namesake Alice Miller wrote books about the child rearing in Germany. and how how awful it is. And European child rearing ler led to more of this. They tr they were trying to form a child who would be perfectly obedient. In my parenting programs I always taught parents that obedience is not to be a goal. Oh children should never be obedient.

Well, that's a slave. Yes, exactly. Yeah, obedience was very big. I mean in fact, um, once I was um But in the uh the the global network I call it, because then there were these basically uh a few people that had a lot more power than the Belgians alone and the Belgians had given me to them.

um when I was gonna be trained for them, I was um I was told I would have to obey that that the the obey is and ultimately it was because I didn't fully obey because there was there were tests I was tested to see if I was what I was doing that was harmful was coerced or whether it was from my own free will at age ten. And because they f saw that it was coerced, that was, you know, I was I I received a final test that was I was disobedient and then uh You failed the test, yeah. Yeah.

Yes, they do this. Every human being has free will and they have to freely choose to do all of this. Yes, I have to freely choose. Is that a free choice? Right, I don't think so. but they they believe that they have to give people a free choice and they do give people, particularly people who are born to certain families that are destined supposedly for to be high up in these networks. Um they give these people the chance to become conscious perpetrators.

in adulthood. But and when you become a conscious perpetrator, all the Hurt child parts of you are shoved away where you can't feel them or experience anything from them anymore and so you don't think it's all so bad. You're just doing it all consciously and it's to improve society and um you know fulfill their improving society. Yeah, they think so, but of course. Yeah.

Oh that's right. Yeah. And they do have racist beliefs and uh That I noticed. Yeah, totally. The eugenics is uh very strong. Yes. In fact, you know they want that was a really big problem that I had brown eyes. Yeah. I had to have blue eyes. Yeah. Ah you didn't look quite right, yeah. But you must have been from the right kind of family. Well the blood, not family really, but my father's my that I who I didn't know. His um he came from a family of Huguenots in France which was from a

I think small nobility basically. But they're connected to th they're linked back to the Cathars. So I was trained with the cathar the cathar grid. I got the cathar grid in front of me, with a 12-point grid. But I figured all of that out later'cause I had no idea. I didn't even know who my father was. Of course. My mother must have told them. Yeah, and nobody I I don't think any of the people that I treated for this kind of thing uh, you know, had the father that they were supposed to have had.

You know, I mean the often sometimes the grandfather was their actual father, um, sometimes the cult leader, sometimes, you know. Whoever it is. I mean they do do the eugenics thing and they wanna Yes, they do do the eugenics thing for sure.

So you had but then you had people from all over that um were trained in these very sophisticated ways and you were then working with what you say are engineered personality systems and I was fascinated by your presentation and I just w I'm wondering if you would n talk a little bit of how it works. Well, it's interesting that the the personality system within a survivor often is like a copy of the system of of the people that are involved on the outside.

They have hierarchies in their networks. The network is hierarchical, you know, and people, there's different levels of authority, etc. That that is set up with inside the survivor. Um so that uh Yeah, so that within the survivor you have somebody some part.

are split off to be in charge and other parts are below them and obey them. And within th them So within there's a hierarchy within within with the system. Within one person's system within one person's person parts that have to listen to other parts. That's right, and have to obey them and if they don't obey them they get punished. And the punishments they experience are like

Um, you would call them mental health systems well you wouldn't, but p some people would say they're mental health problems or whatever. They get they they get uh, you know Terrible seizures or whatever that's an electric shock memory. Most of the time they get terrible, terrible headaches. That's a memory of something horrible being done to their head, like putting it in a vise, for example, or an electroshock to the head.

They get um sorry, this is Yeah, no, I got that for sure. That that was my experience. Yeah. Yeah, they do. And I and I still get migraines too. And yeah, and a lot of the punishments are They're pieces of memories, like the memory of a particular training trauma is split between a whole bunch of different parts of the person.

And but the pain um there's parts that are put in charge of each memory and their job with that memory, the punisher's job is to take up the painful part of that memory and inflict it on the survivor if they start to be out of line. If they disobey.

are done by parts inside who are part of this hierarchy. But the punishers have others above them and others above them and it's a hierarchy and it keeps going up. And each level in the personality system is afraid of the level above them and they don't know how many there are. when you get further up the hierarchy you get ones who are actually people who are told that they are the abusers. So they're internal they're internal copies of actual people.

who abuse this particular person. Okay. Okay, and you have those and then when you get up to the top there's usually somebody in charge. If it's a satanic system you've got uh Satan and high Satan and big high Satan. So then that person believes that they're Satan. Oh yeah, a whole bunch of Satans. This this part of the person believes that they're Satan. They've been told that they're Satan.

And then in a Nazi system you get um Hitler. Most of Nazi systems I've encountered are are run by somebody who uh calls themselves Hitler. Uh-huh. Um, but under under Hitler you have various different levels. I was in a ritual where someone played Satan. Oh, they always yes, they do that. Yeah, of course they do. Well, you know they play Satan, they play Jesus. That first young man client I had.

He looked like the Bible pictures of Jesus. Oh, wow. And he was just you know, beautiful young man, looked like that picture of Jesus and I thought I bet he gets to play Satan in the rituals. Not Satan, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Play Jesus. But when they do a ritual involving Jesus, you know either that Jesus rapes them or Jesus has to stab them or

Jesus representing God turns his back on them or there's people who get to be God too, you know, they they act out all of this stuff. They imitate everything. It does because we're dealing with people five years old. people parts of adults who have never grown up and so they believe this kind of thing. They believe who they are. They believe who they are. Yeah, they believe what who they've been told they are. And then when you have the perpetrators in the system Yeah.

Yes, often they are. The parts that are put in charge in an engineered personality system are usually twelve or thirteen years old. They don't let them get any older than that. The they have front parts. There's the front parts they're called, you know, and they sort of live at the front and they live in the regular everyday world and they don't know anything and you know, they just have a they have a perfect life, thank you very much. Or they're okay except they suffer from

Depression, they don't quite know why, or whatever, but they don't know anything about this. And then behind there there's the ones who are living their real life, I guess. And what do you think makes like my perpetrators, I know, for example, had a perfect front life, you know, also public, so it was a lot of money that was spent on that front life. um presenting the front and you know, PR to to present like better than others really, you know, like not only are they

um higher up in the hierarchy of the world, but they're also um somehow better people, you know, like they're more relaxed and they're more this and they're more that and they're more they have better people. They they have, you know, they give a lot of money to Yeah. Whatever whatever the fr the front is really well presented.

And I don't know personally the degree to which'cause I felt that also in these perpetrators there was dissociation. And my main perpetrator, I felt that he himself was not always aware of all the horrible things that he did. in you know, in other at other times. Um, I did feel that he was a blatant pedophile, like he believed that pedophilia was a good thing and then he believed in it and I felt that even in that

was this very young child trying to make their perpetrator right? Like the perpetrator who perpetrated him. If the perpetrator was right doing that, then you know, it is right to do that in general and then he was com you know, he's perpetuating that from that perspective of the child. who's trying to h hold on to that love of that perpetrator.

Still five years old, you know, still convinced that this person loved them. Yes. That was my feeling. Yeah, that's the only kind of love that they can experience. Yes. No, I agree. So when you have these people that are that have big roles in the world, visible roles in the world, and then you have their dissociation, was it kind of the same

You know, with the people that you came across I think they're all dissociative. No, I didn't treat many people who had huge roles in the world. No, I guess you wouldn't. Nobody would. No, that's right. But yes, uh they're all dissociative no matter what. There are hurt children inside them. There are also children like the training, um Stella Katz's chapter I have in Healing the Unimaginable talks about how they create perpetrator part.

Um and they basically split like to create a perpetrator, a sexual perpetrator, you split the empathic pain off into a different part. So there's one part over here who feels the empathic pain of the person that's being perpetrated against. And there's one over here who perpetrates who believes they're doing good thing for this kid'cause this kid really wants them to do because they're cut off from the empathic pain. They're within the same person but they don't feel the empathy.

They're split. Yes. When I treated that young woman what I had to do they're split. When I treated her, what we had to do to deal with the perpetration eventually was we had to take her through the the memories of her training by her older brother, by the people who trained her to be a perpetrator.

all of this. And so when we took them through when I would take them through the memory, the perpetrator parts were the system forced the perpetrator parts to go through the memory and feel the empathy and feel the pain of the person they were hurting. And it cured. Just like that. It cured her. She would never perpetrate again. She y she couldn't possibly do that again now she'd gone through that. But they sort of had to force those parts through it because it

Not when you feel it. You can't do it. You know, that's it doesn't occur to ever occur to you to any ever do anything like that. And then you're more like you know what? we generally understand, but the I guess the the dissociation, the responsibility of the dissociation to the horrible things happening, because it's not as if those let's say very powerful perpetrators that do these absolutely horrific things and then on all levels because you're talking about a cult, a local cult.

horrible things happening, but it all serves a bigger cult as well, no? Does it serve like the global cult and Yeah. I think that's right, there's hierarchies among the cults too. There's also rivalry among the cults. you know, one a person is trained by one particular group and then another group comes in to try s and checks out their system.

on on any particular survivor and tries to find out what's what was put in by the other group and they put their all the their own stuff in there to uh overlist. Oh yeah. There would be there would be. Yeah. Yes, and I think on the higher levels also. I don't know who's at the top personally, but I I felt on the higher levels too there was um still division among them. Absolutely. Oh yeah, there is. And spying on each other also. I mean I wasn't meant to spy on other

Men of the network, not you know, anyone outside particularly. Definitely. Yeah, and they they check their no loyalty and you spy on them because they can switch allegiances too. Check their loyalty, right. Loyalty is very important. big piece of training by the loyalty that sort of like is presented as it's it's not real loyalty by the way, it's it's adherence to something that presents as giving you safety.

But it really isn't loyalty when you just have to obey. Yeah, I guess it does give you safety and often that's the choice, you know, safety in obedience versus peril and danger and risk and hurt in disobedience because everybody still We still have an innate sense of right and wrong. We know it's wrong to harm another human being. Well I do and you do. Yeah. But some people that I came across they didn't seem to. No, but what have they done with that? Where are the parts of them that feel that?

Where the parts of them that have that empathy. Those parts are locked away, deliberately. Yeah, and if a person really wants to heal, sometimes you can unlock if they really want to heal. But I've never met a psychopath that really wanted to heal and I'm saying psychopath because that's my experience that people like I did not feel that they would ever

You know, get there like want to even because it seemed to be working so well for them. Well yeah. And you have direct experience of those people and I don't

Yeah. Yeah. So when you're working with people that are beginning to disobey because they're integrating these parts. Yeah. So I can imagine that not only for them but also for you that things got very rocky. Oh, I got a lot of death threats and things like this, that's right. You know, hurting my clients was

was what they did all the time. But this is how I learned about the programming. You know, programming is essentially giving specific types of training to specific parts of the person so they are all trained, for example, to never leave home or to open the door when there's a particular type of knock.

or to go to the meetings or to um stab a a victim or whatever those kinds of training. It's all programming. I learned about the programs from um when they they tried we would undo something in our work, my work with the client, and then they would try to put the program back in.

And they'd come and my client had been abused again, but I could learn what the program was by what they went through in that reabuse. And so I kept learning specific programs because the stupid satan satanic group kept trying to put them back in.

and they kept doing these horrible things and you know, it wasn't I mean, I could have chosen, okay, I won't see these people, then they won't get hurt anymore, but they wanted to see me anyway. They wanted to heal. Wow. And it was they they chose to take that take that ri Well, eventually, yes, two of well, three of them got away but one got taken back. Yeah. It was kinda hard. Oh one of them died, um supposedly suicide, but it was murder. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing, is there's no qualms.

about killing people. No. Not even their own. They never use the word murder. They always just say kill because kill is a n natural ordinary thing. Kill happens all the time. What a way to do it. Kill happens all the time, like it's nature. Yeah. Yeah, it's stress. There's no yeah. There's people that don't respect their own life and don't know anything about life I feel. Yeah. They don't respect other people's other yeah beings the life of other beings. That's right. And they don't

And I guess there are people what like the sort of public ex esteem and the power and they think they're safe, you know. They also think that this life is all there is and I'm not sure that this life is all there is. Yeah, that's pretty sad. Yeah. I mean in terms of the the like that's when I completely felt freed because for a long time I felt um slightly envious Yeah.

Living the life, you know. Yes. With their wealth and their yeah uh esteem, you know, everybody's you know like thinking that they're great and everything and they're have their yachts and this and that and I had this idea that their life was somehow that their wealth and their you know, that's th how they seek freedom is through that extreme wealth and through do as thou wilt.

was my group they was like do as thou wilt the Alistair uh Crowley Yes um version. Yeah. Where they felt that by Um behaving like absolute, you know, lunatics that that was the freedom. The re the repetit which seemed like to me like always I was always aware this this is trauma repetition. Yeah. Yeah, they're repeating something that if they're Um either, you know, participating in these orgies and these rituals that became they become ritual orgy orgy mixed sometimes, you know, where

Things are horrific things are happening but there's a a sense of togetherness through the frenzy. That's true. There is togetherness in it. There's a belonging and there's a lot of training about belonging and you know uh the only apparent love that people victims receive is from people like this and so they they cling infant parts of them to the kids. They have so much attachment too.

Yeah. The things that the perpetrators gave me that I still needed to develop emotionally. Yeah. So I have this these attachments that I had to work through. Yeah. Um, you know, slowly, slowly, slowly undo the attachments. Yes, yes, because that's that's uh the only thing you have and it's that was love. It's terrible. That was love. Yeah. And it's not love at all.

And you know, when you get to be I don't know. I mean I've never been a big rich perpetrator because you know what? That life would bore me. Well that's what I came to understand, that their life is so poor truly. Yeah. You know, because when you seek freedom through this sprout, which is ultimately what I think it offers. It offers you freedom from the humdrum of daily life.

But that is because you d are not able to have a normal life. Like everything happens life supposedly happens for them in the shadows. Yeah. in the secret, which is the the the the basic incest story, right? Like you have The the the the perpetrator in incest that makes it like it's this fun little thing that we're secretly gonna do. And then there's unfortunately there's physical pleasure. That can even be experienced in the free state, I think, in the fear. There can be the pleasure felt.

And so then I think th the moment the sexual abuse happens and I know that we're talking about babies, but I'm talking about just young children being sexually ab abused, which I was, you know, very young, but as an infant I was sexually abused. So when that happens there is this um

the the the knowing that you are okay is gone just as you are and that you're lovable as you are that disappears. Yeah. And then in place of that comes this now I I can be loved through this and there's this secrecy that develops in the fun.

And I felt all of them like children searching for that fun and this rebelliousness in the in the shadows. Whereas the daily life, like you said, uh there's depression there because there's because the it becomes you know, all about the image because there's really nothing There's nothing too substantial. There's nothing substantial there anymore. It all happens in the shadows for them, but it's not real. Either way is neither are real.

what satisfies a human being is being part of the greater community and Giving and receiving in the greater community and doing something to help those who are needing and suffering and having others do it for you. I mean that level of connection, that's the opposite of what they do. And then you ended up doing that exactly for people that nobody else could read.

Yeah. For a long time. Yes. So was it very very satisfying? Oh yeah. Yes, definitely it was. And uh just even the I mean when I was a kid in university or seventeen or whatever, I you know, I wanted to understand what made people tick and I wanted to help people get better and I I sort of as as I counseled other students when I was still a student, I was looking for within each person who are they really and what it is that they need.

And can I find that growth point that will enable them to become more like themselves? And you notice my book title, They're Becoming Yourself. Exactly. And I I use that same thing with these people. You look deeper inside and what will help you become yourself? Who are you? What are what are you the s true seed of? You know, what kind of being are you meant to be?

you know, by the Creator or by your whatever it is that makes you be there. Do you have a calling? Right. Who are you supposed to be? I I have a calling, you know, and I follow my calling and maybe everybody has one. And that's so much more satisfying than you know, running the world. Yes, it is a very good title because I do feel that the healing process, you know, over forty years now has been that. Like the first time I felt that anything was true was when I was crying over my father's abuse.

And I felt that finally there was like a glimpse of truth there. And then I felt more inside myself through the grief and the mourning period, I felt more inside myself. And this is the process, yes, becoming yourself at But I had no idea before that. And I was already an adult. In my twenties I had no idea who I was. Yeah. Yeah, they take you away from yourself because it they're full of

you know, parts of you that had to please perpetrators and that exp yeah, it takes you away from your true self, but then yes, so really a lot of the healing is a grieving process, isn't it? Yes. And then at the same time, in the healing

these parts that they that parts that are innately m mine, the perpetrators try to sort of use these elements of my true personality for their purposes. Yeah. So that came out later. Yes, that makes sense. Do you want to say more about that? Well I want to see if you have other you know, other experiences with other people because I feel that what was so difficult is that confusing was that

mm the gifts are innate. So they were finding my gifts and then uh in the mind control which happened in Germany for me, um I was tortured to get those very gifts The very thing that happened with my main perpetrator was that I had an experience where I saw his inner child. Yes. And then that very thing

uh in the the mind control I was there for a whole month in the one facility in August of seventy two. That was the thing that I was being trained for. So the gift that he saw in me then I was basically put to work or the everybody was put to work to really magnify that gift so it could be used as an elite sex slave.

So that I would see the inner child of the most powerful men on earth and then be able to, you know, draw them to me draw them to me and spy on them. So you still did that? What kept you doing that? It was a gift. Maybe it was j was it just the chance to use your own gift because you saw that? Like I don't even feel it was me, frankly. Yeah. Like I felt something coming through me y that suddenly shifted things, uh, for me. But um

But he noticed something. He noticed that gift and then they wanted to use it that way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. But in general also the singing I was gonna be I had in me from the blood or from me, yeah. They were trying to they want to own it. There was a triage to see what they were and then that was gonna be yes, owned and and and exploited but also

really pulled out of me. Yeah. So it then becomes really confusing. Like what is really me? Yeah, because it is your gift but it's being used for evil purposes. That's right. And you do something good that they can use for evil and you don't even know that.

It's just like when they, you know, they make you give an electroshock and they they give you a choice between turning the dial to low and the turning the dial to high, so you turn it to low, but they've got the switch reversed so that when you turn it to low it does the high shock. You know, you don't know. That's not what your intent is at all. Your intent and you know what but you know, when you see when you see that person's inner child, you may actually be helping him.

when you relate to that inner child, even though they're using it, you may still be helping him because he knows that he's been seen. That inner child does know. That may mean something Well, he tried to then go and exploit it, but who knows? We don't know. And I've had clients have realized that something like that is happening and then they sabotage it. They've got this great ability and they make sure to fail a couple of the tests.

because if they fail those tests they won't be used for that. Once they realize what's being done they just stop deliberately fail. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So there are people they know their gifts and they know the fail.

When they need to, so that it won't be used. Yes. And then you also have clients in my situation that were confused about what is them and what is Pulled out of me. Yeah. Yeah. These are innate gifts, right? There we are, you know. We are it is becoming myself. Becoming myself is the healing. Yeah. I mean I was so fortunate to

To have an upbringing where my parents let me be myself and you know, expect that I would be myself and you know, that's so unusual. It is rather unusual, isn't it? Yeah, unfortunately. Yes. Is there anything else that you would really like to share? What would I want to say to survivors if they're listening here? You can heal. Um Um yeah, every every perpetrator has hurt kids inside them. Reach to those hurt kids, but then yeah, it's hard for them to get out, but some of them might.

You know, some people well, Stella Katz who was she was a programmer, she got out. She got she got out and she managed to you know, yeah, she healed. They came to punish her, they punished her lots, but she chose to heal because she saw a way out. Um, and my young woman who was sexual abuser, she stopped that. You know, once you know, her system united

make the perpetrator parts go through the memories that made them perpetrator parts. Those things that can be done within yourself to heal from the things that make you do bad things. So it can be done. That's important. It can be and listen to those parts of you who might know who where it can be done. There may be some parts who know that who can tell you things. And you know who knows a lot of things? Floaters.

The parts that are accidentally split off during some of the important traumas. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I don't think that's so clear to anybody who doesn't know this. Yes, the abuser groups call them floaters, like the floaters in your eye, but they're they're part when when there's a trauma being inflicted, sometimes there's parts that sort of get split off and leave the body and observe. They know a lot. They see what's really going on.

for example, when you hear you know, you think you you've just you hear a baby crying and you think that and then the crying stops and you're told that you just killed that baby and the float apart whispers in your ear that baby wasn't crying. There was a tape recorder playing that cry that crying it the baby was already dead. That's an example that The floater can tell you things.

Parts like that know a whole lot of what's going on just around the vicinity of the body, and some floaters go even further and can tell you lots of things. about the network and things like this. There are parts that I don't know if you call them only spiritual. or whatever. But you know, rather than everything being contained within the brain, it's the brain itself is a network and it has a field and it connects to other fields. And uh yeah, you can you can utilize those kinds of abilities.

To heal yourself, to try and find people who want to heal. Some peop lots of people even who are for Yes might want to get out. But thus don't know how. That's right. Yeah. Floater parts. Yeah, floater parts are important. Ask for help. And I guess you have to want to and then you have to privately want to and then you have to Have a lot of courage, right? You do have to have a lot of courage though.

So I mean when you're doing the work you you have to find your hierarchies and find to find your way to convince the ones who were put at the top of the hierarchies that you know, it's worth taking the risk to get out. Sometimes the person when they first enter therapy, they've those parts have made that decision. I wanna try to get out.

You know, and yes, then those parts who take the lead they won't tell you that they're doing that right now. They're still playing the game and pretending to be the bad guys. But if they f if you find someone who can truly help you um you know, a really competent, attuned therapist, you know, those parts can help your system access what help you need outside of yourself.

There's lots you can you can do. So you wanna look at the hierarchies and who's at the top of the hierarchies. You wanna look at um the split between the parts the hurt parts, the ones who carry the pain, who are hidden away. Um and you have to work through the memories. in order to bring back the parts that are hidden away from the

You know, nobody inside can punish you with the pain from the memories. If the memories have been worked through and the pain parts are included in that work, you don't have to get that punishment pain anymore. Exactly. Yeah. And the other thing I need to tell survivors is The group, the the network, they do not really know what's going on inside your head. They say they do, but they don't. You can do a whole lot of stuff inside your head, reorganize things, and they don't even know.

Very important. Yep. Yes. You just have to make sure your reporters don't tell them. So always find your reporters. Yeah. Well I think that's really, really hopeful. It's a very beautiful note, um, to end this conversation. Mostly I wanna really thank you. I also want to just

I know you're writing a new book that's coming out. I just wanna you know if you'd listen would tell us what it's about. This book is different. It's just my memoir. It's called On My Way to Wisdom and talks about my life and not just this work but other things. in my life and what I learned. When is it gonna come out? Next summer. Okay. Well I'll be looking forward to it. Thank you. Thank you, Al just really pleasure. Great, great pleasure and honor to have you. I'm happy to be here.

Really appreciate your work. It's so important. Thank you.