Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show. I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate about helping you master your animal training skills using the most positive and least intrusive approaches. Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the vast challenges you encounter in training requires a comprehensive base of knowledge and experience. It's common to face obstacles and rough patches on your journey that can leave you feeling overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide. We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their positive impact on all the animal and human learners they work with. We are excited to do the same for you. Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this free podcast episode as we explore new ways to help you supercharge your training skills, grow your knowledge, and build your confidence so that you can craft a life that positively impacts every learner you encounter. We will start today's episode where we will be talking to one Sabrina Brando, or I should say welcoming back to the podcast show, Sabrina Brando.
Sabrina is a psychologist interested in the connection between humans, other animals, and the natural world. She is the Director of Animal Concepts and a PhD researcher at the University of Stirling in Scotland. Her PhD project focuses on individual team leadership and organizational aspects of human well-being in zoos and aquariums, and she will have a related book forthcoming in 2027.
Sabrina launched Animal Concepts, a signature online membership and community in 2020, which is packed with tools and resources and combines the science and practice of animal, human, and planetary well-being so people can feel supported and feel well while doing good. With a profound commitment to well-being for all, Sabrina's influence spans universities, zoos, aquariums, shelters, and sanctuaries worldwide.
She brings a wealth of expertise in animal welfare topics such as training, behavior, environmental enrichment, and a human-animal relationship. Sabrina's impact resonates through her captivating keynote addresses, workshops, and guest lectures at institutions online and in person globally. She contributes to academic journals and books, serves on advisory committees, and actively leads and special collaborates on animal and human well-being research projects.
She is a co-editor of the book Optimal Well-Being for Aging Wild Animals and is currently working on two other books, including one focusing on animal training. So without further ado, it's my very great pleasure to welcome Sabrina, as I said earlier, back to the show today, who's patiently waiting by in Spain. Sabrina, thank you so much for taking the time to come and hang out with us here at Animal Training Academy. Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me back. It's delighting.
So really looking forward to this podcast and connecting with your audience again and with you, of course. And let's see if your memory is better than mine. When was the first episode we recorded for this show? I'm thinking, I'll have to look back. I'm not even going to have a guess. 2021? Something like that. But you can find that episode back. And a lot has happened since then.
So before we dive into the main topic of today's episode, Sabrina, which for you to listen, it's going to be five key areas where animal training principles are integral to Sabrina's work of exotics. I'd like our audience to get a clearer picture of the unique, I think that's a pretty accurate way to describe what you do, unique and impactful work you do in zoos around the world.
Because your role, I say that because your role encompasses so much from animal behavior and welfare to environmental enrichment and compassion awareness. Could you perhaps share with the listeners an overview and talk as much or as little as you want when I say share an overview of the services you offer to zoos and describe. And again, don't know if this is something that you can do, but what a typical day or project might involve of you if such a thing exists.
I thought to get started, understanding the breadth of your work will help our listeners appreciate the nuances and importance of the topics we're about to explore. Yes. So maybe sort of in a nutshell, maybe a slightly bigger nut, but the, so I work as a keeper for many years. So as an animal care professional, that's how I started over 33 years ago. And so working directly with animals and always being interested, of course, in their well-being and how can I support that.
I ended up studying psychology and looking at how can I not only, of course, through the lens of ethology and other lenses, but also thinking about the psychological well-being and the emotions of animals and having them have good well-being most of the time.
And that, of course, spans this sort of holistic idea on animals, but also our connection to them and our relationship that we build with them or that we can build with them, whether it's through positive reinforcement or, you know, other ways of building connections and bonds with animals.
And that led me to doing a master's in animal studies because I became more and more interested in, so what, who are these other animals or who is this other individual and how do I show up for that individual in the best way? But also what does it mean for us to be connected to other animals or to other things that people often feel are important to them when they go into working with zoos and aquariums, which is conservation, conservation of species and wild places.
And that sort of rolled into me being interested in connecting with other facilities and people started asking like, hey, could you come over here and talk to us about animal welfare or help us with training and enrichment and so on? And that sort of, you know, resulted in 2004 starting my own company, Animal Concepts. And we work with zoos and aquariums, but we also work with universities. So we teach at universities. So we supervise students.
We also help for organizations that don't have researchers on their staff. We help them set up projects or train people in doing research themselves or behavioral observations. And then we help analyze the data and help them publish because, of course, it's important to write out your experiences. That could be in a blog or it could be in a vlog or any way of sort of disseminating what you're doing and how has that helped animals or people.
But it's, of course, also important to do that in a systematic or in a structured way and then hopefully peer review publishing. So we help organizations with that. And then one of the other services we have is sort of career coaching or academic coaching for people that either want to get into the field or they are already in the field and they might want to add to their skill level. And so we do those sorts of sessions with people as well.
And so we have clients also in shelters, in sanctuaries, wildlife. We sometimes write policy and work with governments and other agencies. So we have quite a variety of different services and different skill sets. We also have an extended team, people with a background in conservation and welfare or psychology or even sustainability and social entrepreneurship. So we try to really tie that together and understand what is it that we can do.
And if we think we can't do it, then we'll reach out to other people in the field that have certain expertise. So we try to be pretty clear about our wheelhouse. And so the interest ultimately also for me is to really connect all the different dots, because ultimately we are interconnected.
Even though I'm in Spain and you're in New Zealand, we're not just connected through technology, but we are connected in why we do what we do or why it is important to care for other animals or why it is important to care for ourselves and care for each other and help each other. And whether that is in your local community or across the world.
And all those things together is also caring about where you live or the natural world around you or the urban species or the wild species and in general, the planet that we share with everyone. So we are very interested in this concept of interbeing. And that's really what animal concepts is about. And in my PhD today, I look specifically at who are all these people in these jobs.
Obviously, I can't talk to all the people, but I was able to talk to a lot of wonderful people in interviews, but also in surveys to try and understand why do we do what we do. And then also importantly, because of course, there's no amount of self-care, you can throw it yourself if, for example, your team or leadership or the organization isn't well.
And if we're well, then we don't only feel good and connected to our purpose, but we also are going to be able to do better care for animals and species and wild places. So it's just sort of going around and connecting all the circle. So that's sort of in a nutshell of where I've been and what I've been doing over the last years.
And I'm just curious, because well, firstly, actually, I nearly missed an opportunity, because if animal concepts started in 2004, that means that you celebrated a birthday last year. We did. Yeah, we celebrated 20 years. And it was pretty amazing. Yeah. So we had, you know, of course, good. I think I would have liked to do a little bit more. But actually, for the last three years, I haven't had a house, like a fixed home. So I put all my stuff in storage for three years.
And so a lot of like sort of the old pictures that I wanted to dig up and sort of tell stories around animal concepts. I couldn't really do that because I didn't have access to the materials. But for the last three months, I've actually unpacked everything and moved into this new home.
And so I'm actually sort of planning to do that retroactively this year is to sort of celebrate a little bit more about, you know, with old pictures and stories from obviously animal concepts, but also people that have attended. We've organized over 500 events all over the world over the last 20 years, all kinds of different workshops on training and enrichment and the emotional lives of animals and so on. So yeah, the celebration for this year is going to sort of continue with some of that.
And so thanks for that. Highlighting that because it is a big milestone, for sure. And to your second question as what sort of does a day in my life look like? There is no such thing as the same day almost, even though to, you know, in this moment in my life, I'm focusing on submitting my PhD at the end of this year. And this is actually the first time I'm sort of saying it out loud to such a wide audience, but I have plans that I will do this. And so my week is very structured right now.
So Monday and Fridays I work for Animal Concepts and that can be working with our clients online or coaching sessions or analyzing research or writing content for our platforms and connecting with people and with the external team. And then Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday is just focusing on getting my PhD. You know, I'm in the analysis and writing up phase. So right now, that's sort of what it looks like.
But it could also be next week I'm traveling to the Netherlands and going to see some family, but I'm also going to do some work with some schools, some colleges that teach animal care and behavior. So I would be on location at these schools and I would be teaching and interacting and doing lots of workshops and problem based or case based solving and with the students. And I'm going to work together with a city farm because we focus pretty much on animals everywhere.
So, of course, there's a lot of animals in city farms and their well-being, of course, matters too. So we have a workshop at a city farm with all kinds of people who are working in the well-being and the caring for animals, you know, mostly domesticated. And so that would be then a whole day of workshops and specifically focusing on enriching and welfare. So, yeah, my days could be all kinds of different ones. Depends a little bit also who hires us. So sometimes we're hired to do like an audit.
So we really look at all the processes and procedures and all the documentation. And sometimes we will be doing behavioral studies and then we do the analysis. So my days can be extremely varied, but now they're super structured because otherwise, obviously, I won't get my PhD submitted. So, yeah. Well, I know that we have a topic for this episode because I just have a million questions to ask you about the things that you've just said, but I'm not going to.
Let's transition to the main question. I'm excited to talk about it. So, Sabrina, obviously, you do a lot as a learner, as a listener has just learned about, and they can appreciate that the vital role animal training, because our listeners are predominantly animal trainers. So with everything you've just said, they can appreciate the vital role that animal training principles would play in places like zoos, obviously, and shelters and city farms.
With this background in mind, I'm curious with that large umbrella of ways that you can connect with and touch base with organizations and help organizations. I'm curious to dive into this specific aspect of your expertise, animal training. Can you highlight for us five key areas where animal training principles are integral to your work? And we can talk about shelters and city farms and stuff. Totally cool. I had written here to talk about work in zoos, but let's talk about all of the animals.
I'm sure our listeners who are eager to broaden their knowledge and skills in animal training will find your experience and insights in these areas super valuable. So can you share with us your five key areas where animal training principles are integral to your work? Yes. So when you asked me that question, obviously, I thought about it.
And sort of, you know, the first thing, obviously, sort of your, at least my mind sort of flew to is like, how, like, what are the things that animals living in human care, whether they are in a zoo or a shelter or anywhere else or at your home, what would benefit them, right? And that is sort of the voluntary care, their daily care or the cooperative care that a lot of people talk about today.
So, but I was, I was also thinking, so I'm going to sort of zoom out right now and tell you all the five and sort of how they link for me. And then we can address each of them separately. As some of you may know, for the last 15 years, I've been on this soapbox about the importance of looking at an animal's life from a 24-7 perspective. So what is their life? Who is this individual? Who are you? And where do you live? So are you at a zoo? Are you in a shelter? Are you in a research facility?
Where are you? Right, because of you, obviously, the role that we have given you, whether you're a companion animal or an ambassador animal or research animal, all those are going to affect the life that you're going to live. So what is your life like? Where are you? And then really thinking about, okay, so what, when I think about animal training and sort of taking it broader, learning principles in general, and behavior, then what, what do I need to do?
Whether it's setting up the environment, creating good environments. So I talk a lot about being habitat managers or environmental managers, and then all the other things. So you can be the agent of your own life as much as possible. So you're less dependent on the human, your human, the human, whatever is your preference. With regards to eating, socializing, you know, staying healthy, fit, and all those other things, play, sleep, whatever it is that you want to do.
So certainly there's birds I viewed for me 24-7 is incredibly important. And animal training or learning principles play a role in that. So that's one topic to me. The other one is, of course, daily, the daily care or management of animals, whether they are in zoos. So them being able to shift and go places. But of course, hopefully we have as much as possible open access. So animals can actually make those choices themselves. But my ability to ask them, can you please come in?
Can you please go out? Can you sit on a scale? Right. Can you open your mouth? Whatever else, those sorts of things to make sure. And then depending again, right, 24-7 across lifespan is really about what is it that you need when you're like a young animal? Or what are maybe the training needs that you're going to need when you're very old?
And our book on optimal well-being for aging animals has a whole chapter on training with regards to elderly animals, because now maybe because of your sensory changes in your sensory systems or how you move, right, you might need other things. So second sort of aspect to me is really thinking about the individual and their life stages and what is it that they need on a daily, weekly, monthly, whatever relevant basis. And then what I was thinking about was what have animals learned in general?
And so this sort of this, again, this broader perspective. So sometimes when people say, can you come and teach us about animal training or how I go from not having a behavior to having a completed behavior or to be able to maintain behaviors or maybe change something because of age or pregnancy or something else. But for me, what I do when I arrive at a facility is to actually do nothing for the first day or two and just observe.
So what, because what I want to know is what have animals already learned? So what behaviors are they doing? When are they doing them? How are they doing them in response to whatever is around them, whether it's the feeding routines, the cleaning routines, the general human animal reactions or interactions, whether they are direct or indirect. So I'm really interested to sort of map out an inventory. So I would do that together with the sort of 24-7 approach.
I want to first sort of get a good idea of what have animals already learned from the way that we interact with them? Because, you know, you get a lot of things happen and a lot of behaviors are learned, but not necessarily because we wanted to or because we meant to, but because of many other reasons. And some of them are going to be positive and they're going to be good and they're going to be fine for the animals.
But there's also a lot of things that animals have learned that are not necessarily good for their well-being. So whether it's feeding routines, always being in the same location or at the same time can often result in a negative anticipatory behaviors or stereotypes and so on and so on. So I'm very interested in that sort of third aspect, and these are not necessarily in any particular order, but to get a really good feel for the lay of the land of like, what is going on here, right?
Because there's a lot of learning and training. And then sometimes when people say, oh, I don't like animal training and I'm like, well, then it's going to be impossible for you to work with animals, right? Because whether you want it or not, learning happens all the time or information is being updated all the time. And so I will look at how people work.
And of course, this comes from a place of, right, I talk about, and this comes from a friend of mine who is an animal ethicist, and he talks about the flashlight and the hammer. And so we can bring a hammer and that's usually, I mean, those are good for like putting a nail in the wall, but, or maybe something else, but in general, they're not very good for, you know, connecting and trying to find out how can we make things better, right?
So he talks about the flashlight and the flashlight is really shining a light on what is, everything is information. So this, those first moments for me is, is to work with people and understand where they come from, education, all those sorts of things. What do they know and what do we see with the animals? And that's, I think, incredibly important because are they, you know, happy walking up to, you know, the care staff or are they running to the back and huddling in the corner?
No. So what have animals learned or what have we trained, whether we liked it or not? So that's a very important aspect. So as you can already gather, I tend to set them always in this broader sort of umbrella of wellbeing and training is, and learning is of course part of that. Then the other thing, which I've had an interest in from day one, because that's literally how my first job started was research. And we have had five research, four, four research training seminars to date.
And every so many years we organize them. So specifically training animals for research. And that's something I love doing because it allows us to obviously get the animal to participate in all kinds of different sessions, whether it is physiology, hearing, cognition, any sorts of things. Like how do they perceive the world?
And that of course, or what matters to them, what is more important to them, which can then feed into obviously their care, but also can have really important outcomes for wild animals in the wild or for that very animal, any animal in the wild. So research training is something that I'm very passionate about. And then last but not least, the fifth one for me, which is sometimes part of the work that we do is conservation related work.
So learning, training with regards to things that animals need to know when they, for example, being released or reintroduced. So what are the things that animals need to know or need to be able to do or stay away from? Because there's also a lot of aversion training, sometimes necessary, whether it's to humans or to certain.
So that's not work that I did, but that, for example, people that worked with the reintroduction of in human care bred Californian condors, when they released them again, you know, they do like a poll or electric poll aversion training because they don't want them landing on them because that's not good for their wellbeing. So I'm very interested in these aspects.
So 24 seven across lifespan in general, what animals have learned or what we have trained without knowing, or maybe we know it and we don't necessarily act on it. The daily care of animals, research and conservation. I think the answer to this question is kind of two parts to it, but the answer might seem obvious as I ask it to you, the listener and to you Sabrina, but I want to hear it in your words. I think it's going to be valuable to the listeners to have you flesh out a little bit.
Again, I think it's kind of obvious when we say 24 seven, what does that mean? But to flesh that out in your words, because as you said, again, in your words, you've been on a soapbox much to the benefit of all of us to learn about and to learn about it, but also just to be reminded of it and to benefit from your perception of it. So now I'm asking you to tell us what it is.
Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, I've started to call it a soapbox because it's literally in every conversation that I have when it comes to animals, it's constantly this, this, and, and also what is funny is like some people, because I talk about it and I have talked about it for so many years, they're like, not again, this topic, I know I have had eye rolls even, and it's funny, but I'm like, I will talk on this topic. Until we nail it. So what is this topic about 24 seven across lifespan?
And it's not new in that sense, because obviously, you know, when you look at books already published on, you know, thinking about the animal's life, whether it was Heidegger, or whether it is, you know, other books, or it's not necessarily a new concept, we have just put it into a sort of framework that allows us to talk about it. And what it is about is really thinking about what is an animal's life like across the whole of the day, and across its life. So his or her life.
And so it means thinking about so if you're working in a zoo, I will have people pull out their, their phone, or if you have a calculator today, it's like a miracle. But if you know, I asked you to punch in, for example, 16 times 365, divided by 24. And then I will ask people what number they get. And what you get is 243. And that actually is the time, the days that you are actually not at the zoo, because you're only at the zoo eight hours a day.
Or at your shelter, or at your wildlife park, or at wherever. And even, you know, we because of this 24 seven concept, we talk at horse conferences and dog conferences, right. So and for the for your dog at home, or your cat at home, or your guinea pig at home, or whatever, it's going to look slightly different. But still, you know, you might be out working.
That's why we have so many wonderful people with dogs have dog walkers, they come to their home and you know, have their dog go out because they are not at home, right. And then when you're at home, you're also going to be, you're going to be asleep. And then you have all the other things to do. Whether it's, you know, being with your family, going for sports, cleaning, prepping, whatever else not. So the actual time and that's the same in the zoo, when you are at the zoo.
And based on my experience, I in our paper, we have this little clock and it's sort of divides up on what will I be doing, I'll be preparing food, I'll be in a meeting, I'll be fixing things, I'll be talking to the public, I'll be doing so many other things.
But to actually work with the animals, like I in my career, I have worked with certain species, it would literally be, I'll come to your habitat, I switch on the light, I put down your food, and then I leave and then I don't come back until the end of the day where I do the reverse. I put down food and I switch off the light. So and which means that some animals got only five minutes of my time at the most.
But obviously, they're not there just five minutes, I just happen to be in their lives for five minutes. But and what I feel is important is that even if you're not directly with animals, with your companion animal or with the animal at the zoo or anywhere else, we have to keep in mind that whether I am with them or I'm not with them, I am with them. Because you are in general the one who they are waiting for, right?
Whether it's for enrichment, for training, for stuff to happen in their environment that is enriching to them. All those sorts of things are highly dependent on the human. And this is why whether if you, for example, read Wild Animals in Captivity by Kleiman and all, which is a book that I think was first published in the 80s, they already talk about that, right? Like, animals are dependent on us.
And so what the 24-7 concept tries to do is to bring awareness to wherever the animals are, they are in human systems, and they are dependent mostly on us for all the things that they want and need. And this is why in that concept and also in our paper, we talk a lot about, yes, we need to be the animal trainer, right? We need to be the animal enricher. We are the caregivers. We give care. Those are the things that we do.
And then depending on how good we are, that will dictate also the quality of the animals' lives, right? That's where we talk about our quality of care is their quality of life. But how do we then become not just animal caregivers, but actually become habitat or environmental managers? How do we become the people that actually obviously have a good relationship with the animals because we train them for go sit on a scale and all those sorts of things?
But what we actually do is we manage the environment in such a way that they can do most of the things that they want to do most of the time without having to depend on us for all the things and waiting for them. And so the 24 concept is really doing that. This is true. It's not a welfare assessment. It's an awareness raising tool that goes, OK, so you're only at work for eight hours or you're only at home maybe for eight hours.
How would I create environments where the animals can do the things they want to do so they can be the agents of their life? And then it, of course, also brings in the things that we need to then think about, whether it's the life stage of the animal. Well, what sort of role have we given the animal? Are they an exhibit animal? Are they an ambassador animal or are they actually food for other animals in the zoo?
So I could have an amazing rat habitat where they are on a reverse night cycle and they have all that stuff and it's so much fun and they have a great life. And then I've got rats in the back that are actually breeder rats for the snakes and for other animals. And they just are in this sort of small cage with nothing in it. But so the role that we give animals is going to massively affect the well-being of the animal. And then the seasons will and the geographical area of where you are.
So the 24-7 concept is really trying to have you step back and really look at all the things and then tie it to. And now what is it that we need to do? Like, what is it that I can do in the environment? So I reduce the dependency on humans as much as possible. And that's really what 24-7 Across Lifespan is about is an awareness raising tool. And for you to remember that whether you are with them or not with them, you are ultimately the one that they're waiting for.
And how can we make that waiting less? How can we have them be more agents of their lives? As you're talking about coming in to turn on the lights and put the food down, I'm thinking about the many geckos that I've worked with over my life. Where that is the amount of time they generally got as you went around your rounds through the multiple enclosures, turning the lights on, spraying the waters, spraying the water, spraying.
When I say that to the listener who doesn't know what I'm talking about, I should explain what I mean. That's having a spray bottle and misting, putting mist into their habitat to raise their humidity. And in what you're talking about, remind me of an episode we did with Susan Friedman and Rick Heister. And I'm going to direct the listeners to go back and listen to that episode. You can find it in our catalogue and quote them on this. Don't quote me on what I'm saying right now.
But they were doing some investigation of some of their animals in their collections. And they literally found that when they went back or when they when they did observations after they had left. So they had come and they'd done their things. They'd done their training, they'd thrown their food in and they left. And then no one was observing them. But then they went, well, let's observe them.
And the animals were literally just waiting, just waiting at the gates for the humans to come back and do their things. So you worded it like this is when you first started answering this question. You worded it so that the animals can be the agent of their own lives as much as possible. Are you able to think of any examples where you've really had a profound impact on either a team or an organization you work with or just an individual? Sorry, Sabrina. Environmental manager.
And they've kind of employed this and managed the environment to let the learner living in that environment become more of an agent of their own life. Yeah. So and I think, you know, like we're definitely always going to be animal caregivers. Right. And because that's what we do, we give care and hopefully we do that in the best way. And one of the ways that we give care or that we can care is about like managing the environment for the animals. And then you're also like the habitat manager.
But not all your care is going to be necessarily being a habitat manager. So that's why I sort of use them separately. And some of the examples like it are around.
So what is it that animals would be doing and what they enjoy doing and whether that is, you know, different modes of locomotion, whether it is obviously being able to or things that they need, like being able to shelter from the environment, from the environmental elements or whether it is your ability to access food when you want to eat. So when we work with facilities in general, we what we really look at is the quality of the environment, the complexity of the environment.
So whether it is for a monkey or any other species, what we try to do is like. So, for example, many of the changes that we've made, for example, for monkeys or boreal monkeys. So monkeys that like to be up in the trees and like that sort of cover. But then they also do a lot of locomoting. What we often have in different whether it's sanctuary or zoo or anywhere else. And that doesn't, of course, only apply to monkeys.
But you can sort of see it as an example is that they we have maybe some places where they can sit. So maybe some shelves or maybe some cords. But because they like to be high up and into trees, if you're sort of doing the observations, you would see that they would use maybe only one third of their habitats or their environment because they just like to be high up. And also, there's often very little going on in the other two thirds. And it's very exposed.
So it's sort of putting on your hat and go, OK, who are you? Where do you usually live? What are the things that matter to you? And how can I now actually make maybe this this habitat into one giant tree right from top to bottom? So I'm really looking at creating, using. I often talk about how do we make the environment as functionally interesting for the animal as possible? What is it that we need to do?
So creating this massive, you know, big tree by adding in covers, visuals, barriers, extra ropes, all the other sorts of things, allows me to think not only about how are they moving, are they swinging, are they jumping? Right. Because you don't want to just create one massive tree and then animals can't locomote anymore. Or if we're thinking about making having birds have the ability to fly more. We have to think about how do they take off? How do they land? How do they turn?
Because the way that you're going to create more opportunities in the environment has to be informed by those things, because otherwise they might still just be walking around or hopping around because they actually can't take off, turn and do all those sorts of things. So in general, any of the work that we do is really looking at what is the space that you can work with, whether it's very, very small. And that's why I like really thinking about looking at all kinds of different facilities.
So my work in research laboratories has had really great insights. And you can find this, for example, in our paper in confronting back of house traditions, which is the smaller areas that we often keep these animals in. They're often barren compared to the front of house, the exhibits that the public sees.
But these smaller facilities or smaller areas have inspired me to see how can we take what I've learned from, for example, a research lab or in general, creating more functional space and bring that into the back of house areas. So what can we do? And maybe you're not a lot of the facilities we work with are very old. You can't just go and drill in the walls or, you know, hang stuff from the ceiling, because, of course, you need to do this together with people who know the structure.
You're not just going to do whatever. But if you can't drill in the walls or if you can't hang from the ceiling, then what could you do structure wise that you could literally sort of put in a back of house? So that's what we have done.
We have sometimes brought in all the poles, all the stuff, and then we constructed a structure that was, you know, just standing on the ground that would allow us to build and hang without actually, you know, working with the physical structure that we didn't know how to work with. So we're constantly thinking in that sort of space or like sometimes when I travel to very warm, like hot countries, there might be beautiful structures like here in Chimp Eden, for example, in South Africa.
They have beautiful structures in their sanctuary for the chimpanzees. But a lot of them, they're like sort of huddled together in this one place. And that's because that's the only place that has shade. And so, you know, how would we, because we want animals to use their environment as much as possible and being able to, you know, play and rest and sleep and not necessarily having just one space.
How would we then adapt that already, that structure that is already there for them to be able to use it by adding extra shades, by adding blockers and whatever else not. So it's constantly thinking about who lives here. What are the things that are important to them, whether that is the way that they move or the way that they socialize or the way that they sleep.
Even like small perches, like if animals like to sleep and socialize together or play together, if your perches are that small, and I often see that there's a lot of different perches, but there's not one huge perch or multiple huge perches or platforms. So it's very hard to actually hang out together or be together. So it's really sort of putting yourself into the fins or the shoes or whatever we want to call it, the paws from who the other is so that you can really go.
And a lot of these things are, you know, not necessarily very expensive, they're not necessarily very complicated, but it's a matter of thinking more deeply about what does that environment look like. And this is, of course, also crucial when you're building new.
Because at Animal Concepts, we often talk, and I just submitted a report the other day, I talk about building new old things because we keep building, you know, boxes, even though in the 50s, Heidegger already talked about a box being the most unnatural space for an animal. And then the boxes are also often still designed in the same way. So when we're thinking about animals being agents of their own lives, it's really thinking about what would they be doing.
And on our platform, we have one wonderful conversation with John Cole, who's an amazing landscape architect. And you probably know about him. I see you nodding. And he talks a lot in that conversation. We talked about what are we doing for animals that they could do better for themselves. And that's ultimately sort of the idea between, of course, agency and the 24-7 concept types. Like what are we doing that they could do better for themselves?
And what is it actually that we need to do better by building better, by developing better, by making environments better? And this is, of course, also the origin of environmental enrichment, these two words, right? We realize, oh, wait a second, this environment isn't very good. We need to go and enrich it. We need to make it better. And in the lab sciences, you will actually find papers that talk about environmental refinement, because they use the three R's.
And one of the three R's, there's the reduction and replacement, but there's also refinement. And so they talk about how do we make this habitat, this place better for animals? How do we refine what we do?
And then at Animal Conscious, we like to talk about enrichment as being the cherry on top, because ultimately, right, you have to create these habitats, these environments that animals can do what it is that they want to do, when they want to do it, with who, and all those sorts of things most of the time.
And if you become very, very good at that, then if you look up a little video, it's not a little video, it's a video on YouTube from the Oregon Zoo with Dr. David Shepard, who wrote Second Nature. He said if we get very, very good at creating good spaces for animals, then maybe enrichment as we know it today is no longer relevant in that way. And that points again to agency. It's about who are you, what matters to you, and can you do what you want to do better than we could do it for you?
Is that an offering of a definition of agency? How do you, how could you do what you want to do better than we could do for you? Yeah, I think we could turn that into, I don't think that's how necessarily agency is defined today, but that's certainly how I talk about it a lot in the 24-7 and so on. Yeah, like who do we need to be so they can, and what do we need to do so they can do what they want to do when they want to do it?
Yeah. And you think of an example where you've asked that question and then you provided the environmental change, a environmental change or opportunity where an animal has then gone and done something better than the humans that were managing their environment and caring for them or doing for them. Yeah, so I think, so the better as in. Yeah, that's a good point. What do we mean by better?
Yeah, I think it's more, to me when I was saying that, it's more like rather than having to sort of wait for like Sabrina to come and I don't know, you know, put your food there, like what ways would we set up the environment so that you can forage, that you can access food so you don't have to necessarily wait for me to, obviously I need to at some point do something, but right now we have like a lot of different food feeds as a sort of routine and that then becomes the way that animals forage.
But, you know, for example, look at some Amazon parrots. If you look at the literature, a lot of these parrots will forage like six to eight hours a day. You know, they're not eating. They're just foraging, right? And it's important to sort of think about, so consuming your food is a behavior that is part of a much wider foraging repertoire, right? So there's the sort of feelings of hunger or, you know, the stimulus to go and hunt or forage. And then you need to do all that sort of work, right?
Whether it's digging or, you know, going through leaves or jumping from one place to another or like checking on whether the fruit is ripe or not. Like there's literally so many things. Or if you're hunting, then maybe when you've got your small prey, you're actually one of these small animals that wants to hide their food. And so sometimes we see stereotypic behavior, you know, in these smaller cats and so on.
They're just walking around with this prey, but they can't actually hide it anywhere, right? So we've failed to provide those sorts of environments for the animals to go hide their prey and then come back to it later. So it's sort of thinking about those sorts of things that allows us to really think about what is it that we would need to do so they can do the things better in sort of that way and more complete and more holistic. Because, of course, it is important.
For example, we know that a lot of giraffes in human care, they will just drink all at the same time. And in a while, they would never do that because that's not smart, right? There could be somebody lurking around that wants to, you know, eat you. So somebody's looking around and some are drinking and that alternates, right? But a lot of giraffes in human care, of course, don't have that sort of stimuli, which is good. You know, I'm not advocating to put lions in with the giraffes.
But we are missing, you know, the animals are going to be missing a lot of the different behaviors that they would be. And this is sort of, you know, pointing to the, if we're thinking about learning or training in this sort of really broad perspective. And somebody who's talked a lot about this is the late Graham Law.
He talked a lot about so what are all these various behaviors part of a particular repertoire, which is obviously not a standalone from from all your other things that make that that that is a sentient being. We would have to challenge animals in different ways. Right. So they get stronger, they get cognitive stimulation and so on and not necessarily feel. A lot of times I might hear, oh, I feel bad about that. You know, I don't want them to have to work too hard or to be a little scared or.
But it is in that sort of like, you know, that's why we have meerkats like being the sentinels, like they're looking around. And then if they if there's a little, you know, thing happening or there's a bird of prey circling above, they do their thing. And that's allowing for social cohesion. Right. But if we're going to cover the whole meerkat habitat, they would they would never have any of those sorts of stimuli unless you're going to introduce them.
And this is sort of these ideas around them, of them, you know, doing the things better than we could ever do them is because they are actually engaging in them. They are actually doing those behaviors that keep them physically and psychologically well and sort of. And that's sort of how I think about it. And so whether it is indeed, you know, having a shadow or something fly, even if you are in an enclosed area.
It's like, how would you introduce that so that they would still be doing those behaviors, still, you know, have the social effects and everything else? Because obviously it is not good for well -being short term, I think, even though some of the things are not necessarily always pleasant. But life is not always pleasant. Right. And for us to think about a certain degree of stress or stressors, whether it's on your physique or on your psychology, it's important to become a strong, right.
Physically fit, but also resilient person or an other animal that can solve things that happen. So I think those all those things are sort of tied together when I'm thinking about agency. And again, another seeking of definition in your words, knowing that, again, as I ask this, I'm like people understand this word and the listeners will understand this word. But I want to hear it in Sabrina's word because of who you are and your knowledge and experience and your skill set.
When you say well-being, can you offer a definition for our listeners of that word? OK, so obviously there are a lot of different animal welfare definitions out there on, you know, very specific to health. So just to sort of set the stage, what I'm thinking about is the five domain model, which is thinking about the social environment of animals. It's thinking about health. It's thinking about nutrition. It's thinking about environment.
It's thinking about behavior in these three with regards to the environment, to other animals. And of course, the human animal interaction, including, you know, when I say social life, it's really, you know, of their own lives. But also the life that they have with the human care staff or the animal trainer or whoever you define. And how all of these leads to different mental states in various ways. So how that impacts.
And so recently I was thinking about, OK, so when I'm thinking about well-being, what are some of the things that are important to me when we say that? So the definition that I wrote is animal well-being comprises the psychological and physical experience, including emotion and all needs and most preferences of an individual animal as perceived by herself or himself. And the ability to exert agency over one's life to a meaningful extent.
A wide variety of experiencing ranging from positive to negative affect animal well-being. A variety of inputs may act simultaneously and may be synergistic rather than simply additive in their consequences. Therefore, the well-being evaluation should consider all measurable factors and how they interact. The focus should be monitoring and assessing animals based on their experience and promoting agency, choice and control and predominantly positive well-being.
That's how I've sort of tried to make sense of a field that is, you know, pretty complicated in that sense or can be sometimes pretty contentious because, you know, obviously there's there's so many different also streams of research and opinions as well on who other animals are and how we define their well-being.
But I would say that most people today are in the space of thinking about animal well-being with regards to their psychological and physical experiencing, including, of course, feeling emotions. And so but then I try to tie together what are all the other things that ultimately, because that's sort of the shorthand for then what are all the other things that come that are important? What does that look like in the real world? I guess that's what I was trying to get at. Right.
When we talk about choice versus control, they're two different things, but they can work, you know, obviously together. Or if we're talking about agency, if we talk about these things, what does that look like in real life for an animal? Right. What does it mean? So how do these things inform the type, the quality of care that we give, the quality of the environments of the animal? Because I'm always interested in hearing, you know, what does that look like? What specifically are we doing?
What is the action so that and how do we know? Right. And we know that through whether it's behavioral observations like ethograms or whether it's qualitative behavior assessments and looking like the at the emotional expression of animals. Like, how do we know that what we're doing is actually benefiting them?
And how do we know that they can do the things better and by themselves, like as much as possible without us is to be able to, of course, do research, but also, you know, common sense in the sense of like, if I am doing all the things. Habitat wise, environment wise, that allow them to not be at the gate waiting for people to come back.
All those sorts of things, if we see them engaged, like with their environment, engage with each other and, of course, also respond positively to the people that care for them, because we don't want animals that are afraid of us every day. A lot of that, even without necessarily doing formal, formal research, your observations can tell you, are we succeeding, right, of them feeling that they have control, that they have a choice, that they have opportunities, because the less.
And this is, I think, the other thing is being comfortable with being uncomfortable that animals will not choose you, that they will choose their environment, that they choose each other, that they choose things over you, and that I will feel joy from that. It's sort of like, right, your ability to sort of go like, you go and do your thing, because you will be able to do it better than I ever can.
And then, of course, I would want to have the best relationship I can through positive reinforcement or other means so that I can care for you when you need it. And that comes to, you know, a super practical example. In 2007, I said, let's ask the animal which trainer they want to work with. And people were like, no, I don't want to do that, because what if I don't get chosen? And I'm like, well, what do we need to do to get chosen, right?
And it's sort of this bird's eye view to me is like, yes, I want to be important in an animal's life, but I don't want to be so important that they can't do without me. And I think that's the big difference to me where I'm trying to tie these things together. We've got limited time left. So, firstly, I'm just going to encourage to you and the listeners, appreciate if you're still listening, because we went off on some tangents here from the original list of five things.
But I've really enjoyed it. And I think it's been really valuable. Okay, Serena, are you ready? Because I'm going to throw some random thoughts at you that have been coming to my mind as we've been talking. Let's do it. So I was listening as I was putting my daughter to sleep before we jumped on this podcast today to a podcast. And it was about the New Zealand context and about how we've been in a recession and about operating as a business in this country.
And it was this idea that when things get hard, like in a recession, people are like, oh, my God, like we need to change things and we need to get better and we need to do this and we need to do that because our business is struggling. And then changes are made and they get back to a place where they're comfortable. And then they're like, okay, cool, we're comfortable here. This is good. No more changes. We don't need to do anything. We'll just cruise.
And so that's fresh in my mind, obviously, because I was listening to it before we jumped on here. But then, you know, one thing that stuck out to me today and I'll say as an off the cuff statement from you, but you've been on your soapbox talking about this stuff and people roll their eyes and they're like, Serena, seriously, not this again. But then it reminded me of that. And I think one of the things that stick out to me as you talk is a lot of your answers to questions are questions.
So they're like, yes, you're agreeing. Like, so how do we know what we're doing? And what does that look like? How do these things inform the quality? That's how you're asking the question by asking questions. And so the listening to the podcast, listening to you talk, hearing that people roll their eyes when you talk about this. I just want to end the show by asking you, you said you're going to talk about this until we don't need to talk about it anymore.
But do you think there's a similarity between and I think it's potentially a human thing across lots of fields. But you get into a level of complacency. What you're saying is this is a question. I'm not saying what you're saying. You say what you're saying. I'm asking is what you're saying is when we get that level of complacency. Yeah, cool, man. Like I'm at work, like everything's going well. Now I'm feeding all the animals and seeing all the animals and doing a good job.
But really, when you hit complacency, what you're saying is how can we do better? That's what I'm taking away. It's like we can reach complacency. We can reach things are good. We can reach. We feel like a good job. But that's not when you stop. That's when you keep going. Yes. Yeah, I'm scrolling things, scribbling things down as you're talking, because definitely. So I'm very looking forward to answering that question.
I'm also very happy to actually tie my five things together, even though we didn't necessarily always talk about them in detail. I get stuck on one thing and just go down the rabbit hole. So thank you for designing that, Sabrina. Appreciate it. Yeah. No, absolutely. So why don't I tie these five things together and then finish with this question? Because it's ultimately what it is about, right?
So your ability to really think 24-7 across lifespan allows you to deep dive into that and to really go like I'm never going to understand it completely. There's a ton of stuff we don't know from animals in the wild, right? I'm never going to get it. I will always get it a little wrong or even a lot wrong, but that's OK. But I'm going to really dig with this.
And because I'm going to do it through that lens with welfare models such as the five domains and really then putting on the hat on, OK, let's just first map it out. Let's go, what has my dog learned from our routines, from whatever it is? What have we inadvertently trained or what have they learned without me being aware of it? That can help you by watching videos and those sorts of things. Sort of really getting a good understanding and bring lots of compassion and care, right?
Bring the flashlight. It's all information. And now how can we make it better, right? And really thinking about, OK, so now that I know those sorts of things, how can I make things better? So, for example, if I sometimes see animals that sort of walk away or fly away or they huddle in the corner, that is not great. We don't want that. How can I make that better? What sort of training plan, what sort of enrichments, what sort of environment, what can I do to make that better?
Right. And also, if I want, I'm an excellent animal trainer and I and this is a huge shout out to all everyone listening here. If you're a very, very good animal trainer or, you know, learning to train animals, think about how would those principles apply? So reinforcement schedules. Animals don't feed all the time in the world. Right. But we might feed every correct response. But if I'm thinking about that in how they engage in their environment.
So think back to those parrots, you know, six to eight hours. How would I now do use reinforcement schedules to actually extend feeding time and make it harder to do so that I get closer to instead of parrots eating everything in 20 minutes? I'm going to use, you know, thinking about training or or timers or reinforcement schedules in a way that I actually extend that feeding repertoire. Right.
So that's that's sort of feeding all that knowledge and skill that you have into these and including, of course, with the public. There's so many things that how that could also be something. Right. So how do you become that habitat manager with your trainer hat on? And then, of course, with regards to what is it that you know that you could do as an animal trainer in research?
So how can you deploy your research skills to ask questions about what matters to animals or how their physiology or cognition works? And that could be another way of sort of extending all the work that you're already doing, whether it's with your companion animal or the stables that you're working. So how can you use your trainer hat to maybe provide enriching activities for animals by doing research?
And if you're specifically working in a zoo or conservation or other area where it's sort of thinking about what are the things that animals would need to know to be successful in the wild? And how can I use my behavior trainer hat to align with conservation goals? And and so and because all these things tie together ultimately. Right. If especially if you're focusing on wild animals is like how do how are you well today?
And but also how do you stay well over time, but also how does your species stay well across time? And that and this is sort of how all these things ultimately, whether it's the environment 24 seven or the specific training that you're doing for carrying them on a daily basis or through research or specifically for conservation. How do you put your trainer hat on to make those things happen directly with the animals or indirectly because you are the habitat manager?
And then with regards to the last question on. So wait, before I run into that, is that sort of a good wrap up? Thumbs up. Yes. Awesome. So with regards to complacent. So we know that humans, you know, probably all animals, really. We just try to take the road of least resistance because, you know, it's hard. Right. And so it has all kinds of evolutionary reasons. So we have to literally override it. Right.
Just like if we're thinking about human well -being, it makes you know, you are always on the lookout for danger. And so, you know, you will remember negative things more than positive things. That's why we have to counteract that by, for example, writing down positive things that happened that day. Right. And recollected. So, yeah, we have the tendency to either be take the road of least resistance and so on. So it's easy to become complacent.
And and also we a lot of us like to learn new things. So I have sort of called it, you know, new shiny things. I have a blog about it where people like, oh, not that topic again. Right. We want to hear new stuff. And I'm like, yeah, of course, I'm learning all the time. You want to be learning new things, but very, very important. A lot of things. That's why the very beginning of the podcast, I said, hey, a lot of this stuff is not new. People have written about this for decades.
And so our role is to not only become complacent with sort of what is the status quo and challenging that today. But what is it actually that we have known for a very long time or a very short time and we're not using it? Right. So building that bridge from learning principles or specific animal training or anything else and then putting it into action. And I love this. So Jim Quick, who is somebody who helps people remember things and do things, but really sort of learn things.
He has these actually have it here written because I want to remind myself all the time. And so he has these three questions that he that he asks is how can I use this? So if there's anything from this podcast today, I want I would love you to ask these questions. How can I use this? So what in this podcast resonated with you were like, hmm, I could I could use this. I will do this. Right. Why must I use this? And sometimes you can and sometimes you can't.
Or sometimes you have to be creative and go, oh, wait, that came from horses. I'm working with dogs. Could I adapt it? Right. And the other is when will I use it? So because today is the day, as I often talk about. Right. Today is the day. So what small step, what small change could you make for the animals or for yourself today? So how can I use it? Why must I use it? And when? Because Tuesday is a day. Right. And today, the 13th of January, 2025 is a day. But some day is not a day.
So think about how will I do this? And then and then the other thing is one of my mentors said. Right. You will never get there. We will never get there. Right. We can have a goal. So I'm going to train this behavior from start to finish. I'm going to set up a training program or welfare program. Right. You can hit goals. You can hit steps. But ultimately, we're never going to get there. We're always we will we'll be sailing from shore to shore, if you like.
But we'll be navigating on stars because there will always be new information, even in the animal training field. Like I would not consider myself today as somebody who is massively informed in the animal learning and training theory anymore because I have shifted. Right. So this is why it goes back to the wheelhouse, because we are there's so many new things and there's so many new research and new practices. Right. So you'll be you're never going to get there.
And again, because we have our tendency to sort of become maybe complacent or not put on the fresh glasses, it's easy to sort of stick with that. So and I think one of the important part of what we want to keep inspiring. So Albert Schweitzer talks about right to something wonderful. People may imitate it. So what is that small thing that you could do that inspires you to do to make a change and may also inspire others?
And then the other and what you can always keep in your mind, which is one of my favorites. And I'm going to end on this. My favorite sayings is what you do speak so loudly. I cannot hear what you say. Right. Because ultimately. And so this is well, Waldo Emerson, because ultimately, if we're going to nail the well -being. Right. If we're going to be so good that, you know, they're doing things better than we could ever do or even for ourself in self-care. But what you do speak so loudly.
I cannot hear what you say. That really has it really sums up. Right. That's by seeing how well we do. And of course, we're going to use research and so on allows us to really stay in that space of where we can always make things a little bit better. And in that way, the animal is going to be well and we are going to be well. And that's all going to help. I could keep going, but I'm not going to.
Obviously, let's let's ask you to share with the listeners where they can go to find you online and get in touch and check out everything that you offer. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, everyone, for listening. You can find me on the usual social medias of Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn. And of course, our website, animalconcepts.eu. And yeah, thanks so much. And I really look forward to hearing from you, especially like today's the day.
And I would love to hear what one thing will you do so people can drop a comment somewhere. I would love to hear what that's going to be. Wonderful. We will link to all of that in the show notes so you can do that as well. Well, this has been great, Sabrina. So from myself and on behalf of everyone listening, we really appreciate you taking the time to come and hang out with us again. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for inviting me. I would like to connect with you again.
So thanks so much, Ryan. And thank you so much for listening as well. This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off from this episode of the Animal Training Academy podcast show. We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox. Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery. Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and keep improving.
And don't forget the path to growing your skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this episode. Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive membership where you will find a community of trainers just like you. Together, we're making a huge positive difference in the lives of animal and human learners worldwide. Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay awesome. And remember, every interaction with an animal or human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of the way. See you at the next episode.