Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show. I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate about helping you master your animal training skills using the most positive and least intrusive approaches. Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the vast challenges you encounter in training requires a comprehensive base of knowledge and experience. It's common to face obstacles and rough patches on your journey that can leave you feeling overwhelmed and stressed.
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And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this free podcast episode as we explore new ways to help you supercharge your training skills, grow your knowledge and build your confidence so that you can craft a life that positively impacts every learner you encounter. But we will start today's episode where I'm thrilled to talk to one, Debbie Martin. Debbie is a licensed veterinary technician in Texas and one of only 30 veterinary technician specialists in behavior.
She's also a Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner and Faculty Emeritus. Debbie has been a full time registered and licensed veterinary technician since 1996 and spent 14 years in private practice. Since 2005, she's been the animal behavior technician for Veterinary Behavior Consultants LLC. She owns Team Education in Animal Behavior and Debbie Martin Animal Behavior and Coaching.
Additionally, Debbie is a contributing author and co -editor of the textbook Canine and Feline Behavior for Veterinary Technicians and Nurses Second Edition. Alongside Dr. Martin, she co-authored Puppy Start Right Foundation Training for the Companion Dog. She also has extensive experience in both general practice and behavior specialty, fuels her passion for a team approach to behavior preventative behavior medicine and a fear free initiative.
She is honored to be a subject matter expert for fear free and fear free happy homes. So without further ado, it's my very great pleasure to welcome Debbie to the show today. Who's patiently waiting by Debbie. Thank you so much for taking the time to come in and hang out with us at Animal Training Academy. Thanks, Ryan. I'm excited to be here. What a great opportunity to sit and chat with you for a period of time. So thrilled to have you here. I've been wanting to do this for years.
So pumped we're finally making it happen. Let's dive straight in today, Debbie. I can't wait to learn about your behavior odyssey. I was hoping you could take us, the listeners of the show, back to where you first learned about animal training, about positive reinforcement and share some stories with us from your journey. Yeah, well, it started with a dog. I think that often is where a lot of people start. But now, you know, I'm going to back up just a little bit further from that.
Actually, before I became a veterinary technician, I actually used to be a preschool teacher. So when I went to college, I learned a lot about development and how children, you know, there's different developmental stages and how they acquire different skill sets at different times and that there's kind of these onsets and offsets for them and the importance of different exposures.
And I I think that's probably why once I did get into veterinary medicine, I naturally gravitated towards behavior because of my strong interest coming as a preschool teacher before that. But then so 1991 graduated from college and was a preschool teacher. And I got my first dog as an adult. So this is I had grown up with dogs throughout my life. But I went to the shelter and I found this 10 week old shepherd mix. And when I took him into the adoption room, he hid in the corner.
And I thought that was really cute because I knew nothing about behavior. But Snickers ended up living with me for almost 15 years. And he taught me a lot about animals and dogs and training and all those things. In fact, when Snickers was a little puppy. So end of 1992, early 1993, our veterinary hospital that I was taking him to was offering puppy classes. And so I enrolled him in a puppy class right away, which is really good because he had some fear of things already.
And he loved going to that vet hospital, even though he got neutered there and he went for vaccinations and was kind of a little bit frightened about some of the things that they were doing with him. He would when we would get there in the parking lot, he'd be pulling me in to get to the lobby because of those early foundation memories he had had as a puppy. In fact, when I moved across town, I drove 30 minutes to go see that veterinary hospital because Snickers liked going there.
So that planted a seed in my brain once I got into general practice about what a profound impact we can have with young puppies having good experiences in the veterinary hospital to kind of establish this feel good feeling is all I could think about. You know, Snickers liked going there, so I liked going there. And that's where we were going to go. And so that's that's kind of where I started.
Like I was a preschool teacher, had a dog that had some issues and had some experience with going to a puppy class with him. I will I will also say, like after puppy class, they had recommended going on to obedience classes with him. And I I do nothing about training at this point. I was just a baby learning about this. And I remember asking, like, what kind of colors do you use? I don't know why I asked this, but they said, well, we use a choke chain.
And I thought, hmm, that doesn't feel like something I feel comfortable doing, you know? And so I decided not to enroll him. I just trained him on a flat collar and harness, and we learned how to walk together and that kind of stuff. It wasn't until he was like six years old that I enrolled him in a clicker training class that was happening locally. We had a trainer that was marketing at our vet hospital, and I enrolled in a class with her to learn what is this clicker training thing?
And I was hooked at that point. Snickers loved it, of course. And and she enjoyed seeing Snickers adventures and asked me to come on as a trainer with the company. So I was working in that hospital at that point. I graduated from tech school and was working in general practice. And so you got Snickers in 1992, did you say? Yes. Yeah. End of 1992. I think it was around Thanksgiving. So the end is in November of 1992, which is an awesome time. I lived in Ohio, so it's cold weather.
It's a great time to train a puppy to go outside, to go potty, you know, like when it's snowy and awful out. But yeah, I usually recommend it to people. Get puppies in the spring or summer when you live in a place that's very cold during the winter, because the house training part was not very much fun, especially for the first time pet owner. Although Snickers is fantastic. Like I think he maybe had two accidents in the house ever. But he was closer. Well, he just I mean, he was really good.
Maybe maybe I was really on top of it, too. I don't know. Well, it sounds like you had a intuition about things based on just hearing that chug chains were used. Because as you say that, I think about the general populace and the prevalence of chug chains and a assumption, which I have no data on, that people don't have that right to intuition to not use chug chains. Yeah, I have found that just in my career, too.
You know, a lot of owners, very smart people have been told to do things that they felt kind of uncomfortable with. But here was an authority figure suggesting it and they were paying them money. So they would try it, even though maybe it didn't feel right. So certainly, I guess, you know, maybe if I had jumped in and not asked any questions and then been in the situation, I might have tried it.
But yeah, I just it just didn't feel right for Snickers, just knowing his sensitivities at that point. And I'm glad I didn't. So I don't think Snickers would have done well with that. He ended up being a, you know, a fantastic dog that did really well with a lot of people. I was concerned with him about fear of people. And he did, as he got older, develop some sound sensitivities, as well as some separation anxiety, which are often diagnosed together.
And in older dogs, we actually have data on that to suggest that there's probably an orthopedic component to it. And I don't know that we had recognized that in him. Whether he had one, an orthopedic component or not. There was also a change in the household. His dog that he had lived with for a long time, a golden retriever that kind of brought stability to the household, had passed away suddenly. And then these things started to develop as well.
So it's hard to know if it was there and just under the threshold of reactivity because she was his emotional support dog for him or not. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to bring those things up in a safe way sometimes, because if someone's listening to this and they're like, well, I went to the joke, Jane Collar, you know, we don't mean to make anyone feel judged because we've got a lot of compassion for people as a busy parent. I've got a lot of compassion for people.
You know, you want to you want to find a subject matter expert and you want to be like, you know, man, I want to make I want to entrust the decision making process to you because my brain is like on overload. So I totally understand at the same time people's seeking out someone to help with their problems and not having the skills to make an educated guess about or educated decision about who they are to help, even if even if you feel uncomfortable. Yeah, that that gift of like.
And and also the methods, they do work right. Like you do see a change in behavior. And unless you're aware of emotional components or even if you are like sometimes that that trumps the decision, like it feels like this is the only way that we can train them. And and I actually have found that because I'm not a crossover trainer, that I have a little bit of a disadvantage because I'm not able to say, hey, I used to do it this way.
But now, like I I've decided that this is a better way for me to train. So, I mean, I would say I was not the best positive reinforcement trainer and that some of my learners early on probably there were aversives in there, not on purpose, but just because of my my skill set or, you know, at the time using more negative punishment and those types of things. But I have evolved since then. But certainly, you know, I think that that's really important.
We're not alienating different methodologies, because regardless of how you train, you love animals. And the reason that you do what you do, especially if you're a professional trainer, is because you want to help. And there is a connection, whether it's your own dog or a client's dog. There is a human animal relationship and human animal bond there.
And people who train in different ways than I do that maybe I wouldn't feel comfortable with still love animals and I have compassion for them, you know. So and you can learn something from everyone. I've been in a lot of different training scenarios for years. I had Belgian Malinois and did some bite work with them. And that did involve being in workshops where techniques were used that I would not use with my own dogs, but I could see it skillfully being used by other trainers.
And for the most part, some of those dogs looked really happy and didn't show emotional fallout from some of the techniques that were being used with a skilled trainer using those techniques, not that I'm advocating for them. But but I still like the workshops. I learned a lot of great things from these trainers that I might not have gotten in another context, which is beautiful.
And I love the ability to leave emotions at the door and step in front of a human learner and be open to a conversation and learning and listening. That's awesome. And I also feel there's a lot of value in what you've shared that you have some what's the right word? Envy. I don't know if envy is the right word, you correct me, of not being a crossover trainer because there is something that you don't have.
And that is the skill and experience that you can only get from having been down that road. So not saying that people should go out and go down that route, but if you've already done it, like you have this kind of advantage in a way. And you have the advantage of talking to people who are thinking about changing, maybe or eliminating some of the aversives that they've added into their training program.
So having a conversation with someone that has been in that same situation is easier than someone who has not, because I can't always have their full perspective. I try, you know, I don't I'm not. I don't believe that you have to experience everything to understand how that might impact things, you know, like you don't actually have to practice it to understand the negatives associated with it. But but if you have, it gives you a little bit different insight that is a life lesson learned, right?
Yeah. And I think that this can be really powerful for those people, what you're saying. I did some study in marketing recently, and they said that if you want to be a good guide for someone, a good coach, then having empathy and really understanding the situation that someone's in and what it feels like to be there is like it's going to make you a good guy. It's going to make you a good coach. And you should look for that when you're looking for coaches and guides.
So I think that's really powerful. We just shared there. So 1992, we get Snickers. Yeah. Pulling us back, you get Snickers and you make this decision sometime around then to switch from preschool to. Yeah. So I went to tech school, I think it was I think I started in 1994. Yes. And I graduated in 1996. But I was working in I did do some volunteer work at a veterinary hospital before I went back to tech school.
And while I was in tech school, I was doing work at a veterinary hospital as well and getting experience there. And then I got into clicker training with my dog in 1998 ish. And I also got I started teaching puppy classes at the practice where I was where I was a head tech. I was the lead technician on the floor. And one of the technicians was going on maternity leave and she had been teaching puppy classes. And she asked, would I be interested in taking them over?
And I was like, yeah, that sounds interesting. It sounds right up my alley. And I fell into that and wanted to find out more. Like, I just felt like I didn't have enough knowledge or information. So I did a continuing education course at Purdue University. It was a two or three day course just on teaching puppy socialization classes. And it was put on by Dr. Andrew Lucher and Julie Shaw. And that's when I met Julie. And Julie and I are very good friends.
We are also the co-editors of the Canine and Feline Behavior for Veterinary Technicians and Nurses textbook. And it at that point, I was like, I want to go to Purdue University. And they were talking about having a internship for a technician in animal behavior. Now, it never came to fruition, but I thought, you know, here I lived in Ohio, which is, you know, so it's about four hours from Purdue. And so I moved and got a job at the university in the text or in the vet school.
I was actually a cardiology technician, but I hung out in the behavior department quite a bit to learn more about behavior because that's where my passion was. And so I went from, you know, doing preventive things, you know, like basic training and puppy classes to more intervention when you haven't been able to prevent because not everything is preventable and you haven't been able to prevent some conditions like what do you do now, you know?
And so that's where I kind of got my education at Purdue and then working with veterinary behavior consultations for, oh, gosh, 19 years as the behavior technician and seeing clinical cases that were referred by regular vets to the veterinary behaviorist, Dr. Kenneth Martin, and seeing those cases together for 19 years.
I've seen a lot and worked with a lot of clients, a lot of dogs, a lot of cats on specific behavior conditions that they have had challenges with, so I've helped coach them through that. And in the middle of all that, you know, like so I did the Karen Pryor Academy certified training program and then I went, I became faculty for that program and taught for six years. I would go around the country on my weekends and teach students. I love that.
Like it was really fun working one on one with the students and spending weekends just kind of geeking out on training and watching the animals in front of us and hypothesizing about like what's happening, you know, like what, why are we seeing XYZ behavior when we thought we were going to see this behavior? So breaking it down and really kind of identifying the challenges with each individual animal or problem solving and not really challenges.
It's just like when things go wrong and then how do you figure out like, oh, well, you know, they're attending to this and I'm attending to that. And so just being aware of those things. So that was a lot of fun. And about, I guess it was in about 2007, 2009, I started doing some public speaking at some of the veterinary conferences on animal behavior. And then in 2011, I was asked to come on to Clicker Expo faculty.
That's also the same time they picked up the book Puppies Start Right, foundation training for the companion dog. And in a year later, in 2012, we launched the Puppy Start Right for Instructors course through Care and Prayer Academy as well. So, yeah, it's just, you know, lots of public speaking at that point, because once you have a book, you get more attention, I think. And then also specialty in behavior happened in 2010.
I sat for the first exam to become a veterinary technician specialist in behavior and is a new specialty for technicians. Although I will say with the Fear Free initiative, a lot of technicians in general practice are getting the behavior bug. And I think that we are going to see a large uptick in the next 10 years or so of technicians when you specialize in animal behavior because it's becoming more accessible to them.
Yeah. And also during that time, wrote chapters in textbooks, wrote a textbook and edited it and got involved with Fear Free in 2015 before it actually launched. I was asked to come on board and help develop the first course that they were going to be putting out and worked closely with a large group of people at Fear Free and specialists in the field and then came on as subject matter expert for Fear Free in 2016 once it launched and we had certification.
So and that's bringing us up to speed, pretty much the things of, you know, and then, you know, a couple of years later, the pandemic hit and things slowed down a little bit, but we just modified how we did things. Well, I think we just summarized 24 years in five minutes. Yeah, it's pretty good, huh? So 19 years of doing what do you call it? Not preventative, but intervention.
So interventive care, like where some kind of like so kind of like if you think about a board certified veterinary behaviorist as being kind of like a psychiatrist, you know, some medical doctor who treats diseases associated with the brain or, you know, pretty much what a veterinary behaviorist does, although they will also see a variety of different like oftentimes there are basic issues, too, you know, that are kind of along the path, like they don't have maybe many cues that we can use or
anything like that. So there's training that's involved in kind of working through any kind of identified behavioral disorder in the veterinary field. So and I would be like a psychiatric nurse. Right. And oftentimes I will collaborate with other trainers to to work with the patients that we have seen and how kind of be the go between between the veterinarian, the client and the trainer and kind of keeping everyone in the loop of what's going on.
So the case manager is kind of what we call it in the textbook. So we're going to talk about in part two of this episode for the listeners, we're going to record two episodes of Debbie and we're going to acknowledge in part two that through that 19 years and in the nearly three decades of work that you've been doing in the veterinary industry and with behavior, you've obviously seen a lot of great stuff, but also probably a lot of pretty challenging stuff.
I'm wondering if there's some cases from those 19 years that really stick out with you and that kind of have taught you profound lessons and insights that you kind of think about regularly and shape to you have become as a practitioner. Yeah, good question. Lots of them, you know, so one of them would be just the it was kind of going along those lines like of meeting people where they are. I'll give an example. We had a client that we saw and she had multiple dogs.
We were seeing she had several shepherds, I think, and then she had this it was like a pity Labrador mix of some sort. And that dog had some aggression. It was showing towards people and other dogs, unfamiliar people, unfamiliar dogs, and was quite could be reactive on the leash.
And I think there had been a nip or something involved, but there was a lot of fear also, which even regardless of how I was confident, it's not the word I like, but, you know, regardless of how offensive the dog may look, I still find that oftentimes that are every time there's a fear underlying that. Right. Why are they or why are they wanting to make something go away? It's because they're concerned for their own safety. So they're working to push that thing away.
But this dog was being walked on a bench collar. All the dogs were. And so when we discussed it, we basically talked about for this specific dog, let's see if we can transition to something else because the associations that might be made are I see a person or a dog and I lunge to bark or something like that. And then I feel this unpleasant feeling around my neck and I associate that with the actual stimulus that's there.
So what can happen is, you know, like if we just said, let's not use this, let's use this instead, this is causing some of the problem. We probably would not have had a good conversation. If we also had said, by the way, all your other dogs that don't have a problem, bad on you, let's get them off those pinch collars as well. We did not do that. We just gave her an alternative for this other dog.
And what was interesting is a couple of weeks later, she updated me and said, dog's doing so much better. In fact, I've taken my other dogs off their pinch collars now because I don't really need it. You know, like I have these other tools that I can use that aren't going to create problems. And we had not suggested it. We were just, you know, very mindful of this specific dog is having an issue. So let's address it there. Yeah. So that was it.
That was, you know, just being really mindful and trying not to have the client shut down was really important. Not that I've done it perfectly throughout the years. I mean, I'm sure there are times that regardless, like people feel judged and sometimes that's out of our control that they come with that baggage, maybe. But sometimes there's little things that we do, whether we glance away or cross our arms.
So there's body language indicators that can tell them that, hey, you know, we're not accepting of something they're telling us. And so being more mindful of that is a work in progress because it can be hard to hear things that clients are sharing with us. And if we're not receptive or open, then they're less likely to share. So that can be a really eye opening one.
I would also say, so for me, some of the most rewarding clients I have had are those ones that we've had for decades, like over a decade, you know, like you're with them. They stick with you and you see them routinely and you help them throughout the life of their pet, you know, and you build a special relationships with those clients as well. So we have a client currently that used to live in Austin, Texas, which is where I am.
But now lives in Houston, which is about three and a half hours away. And she still comes twice a year for us to see the dog because she trusts us. And it is a challenging situation, one of probably the more difficult cases that I have ever seen. But the bond I have with that client and also with the dog is so strong and will be there for her throughout. So that's it's really nice building those special relationships with clients over the years.
In fact, some clients have become really good friends that I go spend time with, you know. Yeah. So both of those stories from your journey have been leaning towards the human side of your role. Is that so when you think back, are you more touched, more influenced, more shaped by working with the human learners?
Yeah, so I would say, hmm, yeah, I just the nature of the work that I do, I often don't have the luxury to do the hands on training with the animal because that's not comfortable for that animal, you know. And so I'm often coaching the clients on the methods so that they can apply it.
And I don't necessarily, I found out early on, okay, maybe a decade in, not early on, I found out mid-career that if I became the sole focus for the dog, it became challenging for the dog to focus on their pet owner if I was trying to transfer skills to them. And it depends on your business model. Some people actually do want you to just come in and train their dog and then transfer the skills to them. My model has always been like I'm there with the client teaching them about it.
And oftentimes I would practice it with their dog and then have them do it. But the problem was the dog started to learn that I was all about treats. I didn't have to get the dog a bath. I didn't have to trim its nails. I didn't have to do any of those things. I wasn't living with the dog. So when they saw Debbie, they were like, oh, it's Debbie. It's a treat lady. And we're going to have a great time. And it's going to be really fun. And so they would get highly focused on me.
And then when I would try to turn it over to the owners, even if they had great treats and stuff, there were some challenges. And so I tried to back away from that a little bit more and let the owners become the primary giver of good things in those situations and coaching them as opposed to me doing it all. So I would say that's probably why as my career advanced, I felt like those relationships with the clients really is what became stronger.
And when I worked with my own dogs, though, so I had Jasmine was my Malinois that I did agility and rally with. She, oh, she was such an amazing dog. And she, she was, I called her a mini Mal because she was only 39 pounds. So she was quite small for a Malinois and very agile and just really focused and fun to work with and not over the top too much, you know, like for a Malinois.
But the training with her and the bond that I developed with her doing kind of rally, obedience and agility with her was something I hadn't felt with a dog before. Amazing. Really interesting. I've got a million questions about everything you've just said, but I've only got an hour. So I'm not going to ask. Sorry, audience.
I'm interested to hear about and something that I'm selecting from what we could talk about today that I think will be interesting for our listeners is about your journey with the Puppy Start Right book and program. Can you tell us a little bit about that segment of your journey?
Yeah, well, the book came about because Dr. Ken Martin and I were creating handouts or we were suggesting books to people and we'd say, OK, we'll read this book, but not this chapter, you know, because there might be something about dominance in there or something like that. And so we're like, why don't we just write our own book instead of having all these handouts that we're creating for people? We'll just create our own book and use it with our clients.
So even though it says Puppy Start Right, we use it with all age dogs. It is appropriate book for all age dogs. But, you know, there's that early part about getting started with socialization and experiences and that is and most people are looking for a book for a puppy. So that's probably why the title came in that way. But yeah, so that the need really stemmed from that. We had used the Ultimate Puppy Toolkit and then it went away like it was no longer available.
So that really sparked our interest in, well, maybe we'll write our own book. And so that's what we did. And then naturally from there, I because I started my training and animal behavior career teaching puppy classes and saw what a profound impact they had. Like I had clients that they would come to my puppy class with a young puppy at our vet hospital.
And then when it was time for their dog to be spayed or neutered, they would ask which day I was the surgery technician because they wanted their dog to be cared for, nursed. They wanted me to be their dog's nurse during that time. They didn't care which veterinarian was doing the surgery. They wanted their dog to know the person that was handling them and prepping them for surgery and recovering them in a familiar face, right? So those relationships was really cool in general practice.
So because of that, and just seeing the impact it had on the dogs coming into our practice, if they had gone through a puppy program, because our puppy program really emphasized like going into the exam room and getting up on the exam table and getting lots of treats and having an otoscope or ear, you know, having their ears looked at or touched.
Like, so it taught owners how to work on those things and it gave the puppies great experiences in the vet hospital when they weren't actually needing to be examined or vaccinated. So these dogs usually were much easier for us to do care on as they grew up because they had had these positive experiences. And so I wanted more vet hospitals to be doing that. I also saw the profound impact it had on Snickers and I in our journey together in 1992, 1993.
So I developed just a packet that I could go to vet hospitals and teach them. They would hire me and I would teach them, give them a full curriculum. And I was doing that, like traveling around to a couple of different hospitals and doing that. It was very time consuming. So once the book was picked up by Karen Pryor Academy and Sunshine Books and, you know, clickertraining.com, they're all kind of all one thing. We talked about, could we make it into a course?
And besides a dog trainer professional program, Karen, well, there was Michelle Pula had her, you know, freestyle course with them. But Puppy Start Rate, I think was the next course then that was launched by Karen Pryor Academy. So it took about a year to write it and record everything that we had for it. But it provides a full curriculum for someone who wants to teach a puppy class, whether it's in a veterinary hospital or training facility, it doesn't matter.
And then also I've adapted it for like, if you're just doing private lessons, I have, I've done that. I've used the same kind of formatting for doing private sessions with people. If for some reason their dog is unable or they're unable to attend a group class setting. And that course now, is that just self -learning when you enroll in it? Yeah, so it is an online course through Karen Pryor Academy. And it's, you can sign up anytime and you get it. There's lessons that you go through.
There's videos that supplement that. And then there's also a full curriculum that is provided for you to teach at the end. And it goes through the curriculum in it. And we break, me being the preschool teacher, I broke it down into like, you know, five or 10 minute increments of what you're teaching during the one hour session. And really kind of modifying it to keep the learner's attention and the puppy's attention. So we're not just talking, talking, talking. And it's not a free for all.
Ideally, I do like young puppies. So when we're talking in Puppy Start Right, we're talking about puppies that are actually in their socialization period. So the oldest the puppy can be when they start that class is 12 weeks. And so, because I want them done by the time they're 16 weeks of age, which is really pushing it. They're probably coming to a very close of their socialization period at that point. But there's variability between breeds and individuals too.
So, but we do, I do like to, if it's appropriate, the dogs are compatible. I do like to have some short interaction sessions with the different breeds at that young age, just so that they can learn that, you know, a French Bulldog is a dog, right? So, I mean, that looks so different and sounds so different to a beagle who encounters a French Bulldog, may not understand the communication that's happening.
And so if they can do that with a young puppy, it's often, you know, just like with kids, children need children to interact with their peers. Being around only adults, there are things that they will miss out on.
So during this like window of opportunity, we want to try to provide some positive experiences with a variety of different breeds of puppies that are all in the same age set so that they're more likely to be compatible and less likely to have any conflict or agonistic interactions with each other. It doesn't mean that there won't be.
And that's why I say, if it's appropriate, if, you know, the personalities are right, like you, obviously, if there's huge size variations, that doesn't work either. If you've got a little itty bitty Chihuahua or a Yorkie, and you've got a Great Dane puppy, and they're both 12 weeks old, that might not be safe.
It might be, like, actually, I remember in one of my puppy classes, the big Bull Mastiff that liked hanging out with the little puppies because he didn't like the big dogs that were running around too much. So he hung out with all the little dogs and they like played around him and it worked out well because of his energy level was different. But yeah, it could be a challenge knowing how to work play in and making it appropriate. So it's not a free for all.
So maybe once or twice during the class, they get about three to five minutes of some well-supervised interactions with the other dogs.
And then you point out things like their body language and what they're trying to communicate with each other so that the owners are learning about that as well and kind of understanding their dog's communication and if they're comfortable or uncomfortable, and then how to redirect them if they're feeling like they might be uncomfortable and doing it in a way that is not damaging to the relationship with the other dogs or with their person.
Well, there's a couple more things I want to talk about, but firstly, I just want to say congratulations. You have done cool things and you've had an amazing career. And there's different segments of our podcast audience, Debbie. There's going to be those who are like, just want to geek out on training and might be kind of intermediate and wanting to gain ideas.
But there's those who have aspirations, you know, they would love to write a book and be called up by Karen Pryor or not Karen Pryor, Kendra Meares now. Hey, do you want to add your catalogue to Karen Pryor? I mean, what does that feel like to get that recognition? Getting acknowledgement from someone who's esteemed in that industry is Karen Pryor. Yeah, I know.
So just looking back at spending time with Karen too and learning from her over the years and, you know, gosh, I miss seeing her face at the conferences and stuff and her insights were always so good. But yeah, it was just really just kind of surreal, you know, like how did I get to be so lucky, right? And I know it's not like, I shouldn't discount my hard work and all those things, but some of it feels like sometimes like you're just in the right place at the right time, you've got connections.
So one of the reasons that I was pulled into Clicker Expo was actually Julie Shaw. So she was a behaviour tech at Purdue University and she was on faculty and she brought me in as a suggested speaker. And that's, you know, was the opportunity that came out from that. So, you know, that collaboration, that helping each other and helping boost other people up that are coming in the field is important.
And I think it's important kind of what you're doing too, like, because you are doing that exact same thing by having this podcast, having different professionals coming on and talking about things instead of it just being, you know, the Ryan Cartlidge show and it's all about you and what you have to say, you're wanting other people's perspectives. And I think that that's a big part of opportunities for young professionals in the field, as well as, yeah, the continuing education.
I would say my push to always learn more has opened up opportunities and not everyone is able to do that. Like, I mean, I would say financially, things were really tight and for a long time. I mean, like starting a new business, working as a veterinary technician, you do not make a lot of money, okay? I'm just gonna tell you right now, like when I was at Purdue University and I know this was back in, oh gosh, it was 2003, so 20 years ago.
But I was only making just under $30 ,000 a year, which is not very much in the United States, like it's not really enough to live on by yourself. And technician salaries are still fairly low for the skillset that they have, especially like if it's a licensed technician that has gone to school and can anesthetize animals and, you know, draw blood and put in IV catheters and do all these things, it is quite amazing how little they are still paid.
But that is the challenge of veterinary care, like making it affordable for the clients and being able to pay your staff appropriately can be challenging. Well, I mean, talking about earlier that understanding that a good guide offers their clients, and I think there's pretty many listeners of the show who are in that position right now, so it's inspiring for them to listen to you and see what the long results of hard work and dedication. Yeah, and sacrifices.
I mean, there were sacrifices that had to be made in order to pay for continuing education. So for veterinary technicians, the reason I was able to take the Care and Prayer Academy dog training professional program was that Julie Shaw started a scholarship for veterinary technicians that were interested in pursuing a specialty in behavior, and it helped pay for almost half of the course. So it became a 50% discount basically because there was a scholarship available.
And we still continue that to this day. We offer three scholarships a year to veterinary technicians that are working towards a specialty in animal behavior who want to take the dog trainer professional program because it oftentimes is not something that they would be able to afford otherwise. And it's still a sacrifice at half the price, so yeah. Where do people find out about that scholarship? I didn't know about that.
Oh, so it's on the Care and Prayer Academy website under their dog trainer professional program. There's like financing and scholarship offers. It's called the Faith Scholarship, and it is based after Julie Shaw's service dog for her son.
The dog's name was Faith, and that's how it got started was helping really trained to help veterinary technicians who wanted to learn more about training and pursue a career in animal behavior, give them those skills because part of being a veterinary technician in behavior is you have to understand how animals learn and how to train them and also how to work with people and coach them as well, which the program does do a good job on all of those fronts.
So considering the sacrifices and then the financial considerations that anyone who might be considering that line of work has to consider and reflecting on your bio, when you said you're one of only 30 veterinary technician specialists in behavior and then also thinking about fear free and these other opportunities for people to upskill themselves in the area of behavior, can you maybe just share a little bit for anyone listening who's in that space, what does veterinary technician
specialist in behavior mean? What does that entail? What are some career paths or considerations that people need to make if they're thinking about exploring these opportunities? Yeah, great question. So it is a three to five year commitment of specializing in behavior before you could even be eligible to apply to take the examination. So within the veterinary field, they've had specialties for veterinarians.
They also have quite a few specialties for technicians and the behavior one, you can find out all the details at avbt.net and that's the academy of veterinary behavior technicians.net. So it's just avbt.net and we can probably put a link in the show notes or something at the end for that. But it is having so many hours of prevention and intervention. And then also, so it does require as a technician, our role as a technician is to be working under a veterinarian.
And so if we're working as a licensed technician, we do have to have like an overseeing veterinarian on the case, but then we can do all the like cool stuff, you know, like teach about the behavior modification and how to train these behaviors and help problem solve this treatment plan that's being given to the client and help them apply it to their household and their specific unique situations.
And so working, it doesn't mean you have to work at a vet hospital, it's just that the animal, like for in my mind, the animal should be seen by the veterinarian and have a veterinary diagnosis.
In the States, at least as a licensed technician, if I start saying things like, well, your dog suffers from some kind of separation distress or separation anxiety, that actually in the state of Texas could be perceived as practicing veterinary medicine because I'm giving a medical diagnosis, which includes mental health in the state of Texas. And so I could lose my license over something like that.
And if I say like your dog's got this and these are the treatment recommendations for it as well, even if I don't say that, if I don't try to diagnose it, but I provide treatment recommendations for mental health disorder, that could be considered practicing veterinary medicine. So as a technician, I have to really be careful about the line that I walk and make sure that I am teaming up with the veterinarian because there are lots of things that could be missed if we're not careful.
And I hear everyone out there, not all vets know what to look for. And that is true. Not all vets are up to speed about animal behavior. And sometimes they give really poor advice. And yes, I know, but let's meet them where they are and help educate them as well if they're open to it.
And certainly because of that kind of stipulation, a technician who's working towards a specialty is gonna have to kind of think about linking up in some way with veterinary hospitals, whether they're doing their own practice and seeing cases that are being referred to them by a veterinarian. And then they're also collaborating with that veterinarian. But you can also, we see plenty of people who get their specialty, they come from a general practice.
So they have a veterinarian that is interested in behavior that is seeing some cases. A lot of their hours can be preventive things like puppy classes, kitten classes, puppy well visits, adolescent well visits. These are things that don't require veterinary intervention or a diagnosis. So I think three fourths of their hours actually can come from prevention type things. So that does give them a quite wide variety of ways to get enough hours. And then they also have other requirements.
Like they have to write some case reports. They have to have a case log. They have to have so much continuing education in animal behavior. And then they apply, they send their application in for our board to review. And they either are accepted to sit for the exam or we give them points on things that they need to build on before then. There's also in the application process, there are videos that they have to submit of actually working with clients and animals and showing their skillset.
So they will have to submit that as part of the application process. And then if they are accepted to sit for the examination, it's a full day exam, part essay, part multiple choice. Well, thanks so much for sharing all of that Debbie and sharing everything so far. We love hearing about people's behavioral odysseys as we like to call them. I could keep asking questions. We didn't even talk about fear-free yet in much detail but we're running out of time.
Before we do that, I would love for you to share with the listeners of this show what you're up to now. What are you doing in 2024? What is currently keeping you busy? Yeah, so the odyssey still continues and different chapters in my life are starting and continuing. I'm still a subject matter expert for fear -free and fear-free happy homes, which I enjoy doing and consulting with them on kind of content, making sure that it's in line with their principles as well as best practices for behavior.
And then along with that, been in collaboration with Dr. Kenneth Martin writing a canine and feline veterinary behavior program for fear-free for actually the past five years. And it should be launching. Some of it will launch at the end of this year. And then the full program will be launching over the next year as well. And so this will be for veterinarians and trainers to learn more about clinical animal behavior from the veterinary side. It is very much a graduate level course.
And if you know anything about fear-free, most of their courses are just a couple modules long. This one's gonna be like 45 modules. It should probably take anywhere from seven to 12 months for you to complete. And it is gonna be something that will help veterinarians at least have some comfort level with treating or recognizing behavior challenges in dogs and cats.
And then also it will help trainers who are interested in the veterinary aspect of animal behavior to kind of collaborate with these veterinarians so that they can all kind of be speaking the same language, so to speak. And on the same page, they have the same education. The course will be the exact same for whether you're a veterinary technician, a veterinarian or a trainer.
And so that is something I'm very excited about because it's, I really like educating, getting education out to people, people who want that information. So that's coming out, putting the final touches on it as well as continue to write a little bit more content for it. And then I also started working with a new startup company that is trying to make behavior more accessible for, well, this is only in the United States right now. It may venture out to other countries, but it's called EasePetVet.
And you can find them at EasePetVet.com. But the referring veterinarian can refer their client to Ease and then the client can purchase a treatment plan that has been written by board certified veterinary behaviorists. And it also has videos to supplement it. So it's an online option that they can get access to immediately at a affordable price.
The problem oftentimes, at least what we're still seeing in the United States is that we have a lot of dogs and cats that need help, but they might be referred to a specialist that there's a three to six month wait period before they can be seen. And really in that interim, things can get much worse or they start doing searches online or getting information that's not conducive to improving their situation.
And so this can be a first step in the process of getting them to someone that can help them hands-on. But it may, for some cases, actually treat the whole condition, so for inappropriate elimination in the cat. Like that oftentimes between the medical component and then some tips that can be given can be treated pretty successfully. And so very excited about that option too.
And then I am also starting a new coaching service for pet owners that have a behavior treatment plan from a veterinarian, whether that be from Ease Pet Vet or from the regular vet or from a board certified veterinary behaviorist. And I will do virtual and if they're local in-person sessions with them. And it's really about like committing to a two months of us working twice a week together to kind of implement that treatment plan into their life.
So I try to break it down into for the next three days, when do you have five minutes and 20 treats to do this exercise? And then let's report back how that went in three days. We'll see how that went and we'll expand on it next time we meet based on how things are going. So I'm excited about that because that gets me to those clients that want kind of that long-term commitment, not just the quick one appointment, fix my dog doc type thing.
It's more of the ones that want to really implement the behavior modification plan and need some assistance in doing that to help keep them motivated and feel like they're not making errors because oftentimes follow-ups maybe will be a month or two months or even three months out. And so being able to walk them through that plan slowly, I think we'll have better success. Firstly, I'm thinking, do you live in some parallel universe where you have more than 24 hours in a day?
No, it sounds like a lot, but I do break up my... So what's nice is I talk about like I have four different jobs, basically. I work with clients, I do public speaking, I do writing and I do like review of content for Fear Free or some other companies too as well. So I get a balance of things. It's not like I'm gonna have like 20 active clients at a time. I will have a max of four clients that I'm working with at a time. If I'm meeting with them twice a week, that's already eight appointments.
That's the max, right? Because I'm only gonna commit a couple of days to that because there are other things that are on the to-do list as well as time for me. And that is important as well. And I have, it's a work in progress, but it's still, I feel like I have a good routine of self-care and doing some of the things that I really love that energize me and keep me fueled. Well, beautiful. I'd love to do a whole conversation just about this. But I'd like to also say that the, what is it?
Easepetvet.com, that sounds like a really valuable and needed globally. It will be global at some point, I promise. I think it's gonna do well. We will link to all of us in the show notes. And unfortunately, we're gonna wrap up part one here. Debbie, this has been so much fun. So from myself and on behalf of everyone listening, we really appreciate you hanging out with us for part one. We've got more Debbie coming up, which I'm excited about.
Thanks, Ryan. And thank you so much for listening as well. This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off from this episode of the Animal Training Academy podcast show. We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox. Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery. Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this episode. Visit www.atamentember.com to join our supportive membership, where you will find a community of trainers just like you. Together, we're making a huge positive difference in the lives of animal and human learners worldwide. Until next time, keep honing your skills. Stay awesome. And remember, every interaction with an animal or human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
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