Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show. I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate about helping you master your animal training skills using the most positive and least intrusive approaches. Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the vast challenges you encounter in training requires a comprehensive base of knowledge and experience. It's common to face obstacles and rough patches on your journey that can leave you feeling overwhelmed and stressed.
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And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this free podcast episode as we explore new ways to help you supercharge your training skills, grow your knowledge and build your confidence so that you can craft a life that positively impacts every learner you encounter. So without further ado, it's my very great pleasure to welcome Craig to the show today, who's patiently waiting by in Spain. Craig, thank you so much for taking the time to come and hang out with us at Animal Training Academy.
Thank you for having me. It's a massive pleasure, Ryan. Thank you for the invite. You're welcome. You've been on my radar for a long time, so I can't wait to learn more about you and learn from you and dive into all of the things we're going to talk about over the next two episodes. Craig, for part one of our recording, I am pumped to learn about your story, where you got started, where your career has taken you and all the way up to what you're up to today.
So to get us started, take us back to where you very first learned about training, about positive reinforcement and then just patch and talk our ears off, Craig. For sure. So, oh God, it's a bit of a long story. So when I was a little boy, I lived with my mum, my nan and my granddad. And my granddad was a police stock handler. Um, so like some of my earliest memories are with granddad. He used to work nights predominantly.
And I always remember him coming home like in the morning in his uniform with the dog, heading off the bed and then seeing him sort of later on in the day once he'd woken up and going out and training with him and the dogs. He used to have like a van with cages in the back. And we used to go, there was a place in London called Gladstone Park that we used to go to. And he used to take me down there with the dog and he would show me sort of different exercises, like sendaways and basic obedience.
And as a little boy, I was just really entranced by it. And he was very much like a role model for me. Um, and at that point, I think that the whole thought process was, I want to be a police dog handler. Like that was, that was like the starting point. Um, and then as granddad got older, he retired. So we worked through, worked through lots of training with him when I was, when I was like really young. And then as he retired, we got a family Labrador.
And that's where like, I really started to do stuff myself because all of that point working with Brandon, it was just like him showing me stuff, showing off the dogs were obviously big German Shepherds. I was a tiny diddly child. I couldn't really do much with them apart from give them a fuss. So we've got a Labrador. Um, and that's where I started to sort of with granddad through books. I didn't have any direct tuition apart from granddad, to be honest with you.
I just read books, um, and worked around training the dog. I realized at that point through the books I was reading that the, and again, God, this is, I'm 37 now. Um, so this was a long, long time ago. Um, 30 years or so ago, it would have been maybe a little bit less. So during the course of like reading the books and stuff, the training information wasn't as, wasn't as it is now. It was just, it was just a different world.
Right. And, but what I did realize through granddad and like his old rolled up, uh, tea tally, tuggy raggy toys that you had to play with the dogs and the balls and stuff that were rewards were super beneficial food. And I, I understood toys, but nowhere near to the degree that I did. Then basically my understanding of toys then were dogs tugging or biting onto stuff or dogs chasing stuff. So with my Labrador is all self-taught. Samson was his name and went through training with him.
And it wasn't really until I got to about 17 when I started to drive that it started to become more serious. That was when I started to drive and sort of sought after external mentorship. I started to get involved in a sport called working trials, um, in the UK. And through that, I met a gentleman called Mike, who was right at the back end of his career as a behavior consultant in London. Um, and he very much got, I've got everything to thank him for. He's nearly 80 now.
And I still still speak to him once every week to 10 days. I love him to death. He's like, he's a fantastic person. And he just took me under his wing run. I was so, so I was so fortunate because I was working at that time when I left school, I did lots of things. I, um, worked as a personal trainer and a lifeguard and a gym assistant in a gym for a little bit. Um, I did some labor in jobs or whilst trying to dog train in the, like on the sidelines.
And then ultimately I got a apprenticeship as a joiner, which allowed me sort of sustainable income and to study, learn, and train. Cause at that time, I mean, it wasn't really an option to be a full-time dog trainer in my head. Mike was like this anomaly that had managed to do it. And I just didn't think that that would be something that I would be able to do, um, at that point in time. So I was working as a joiner.
And then after, you know, being back and forth with Mike for six months or a year and starting to take on cases of my own, et cetera, I thought, Oh God, this is definitely possible. Like I can really push on and do this. And then I started to get more interested at science at that point, because obviously there were varying ways of training conversations around training, but nothing like it was now.
And that's when I started to self-study, um, and really sort of dig into, um, applied, uh, behavior analysis and, uh, Karen Pryor, uh, Karen Pryor. And then, oh my God, what's the lady that writes the. Leslie McDevitt. Leslie McDevitt, but it was the lady that mentored her. Dr. Karen Overall. Karen Overall. Yeah. I remember getting, thank you. God, I'm getting old. I can't remember, but I've read a lot. I love that trail though. That was fun. She's super. And I read her behavior manual.
So it was one of the first ones I've read. Um, I think I've read every copy to be honest with you. And it was back to front reading them that really dug me into developing an understanding of the science and behavior that I started to apply, um, into my work. And then it wasn't until sort of mid twenties, mid thirties until I sought off the board certification and then, um, like, uh, the official study.
So that's when I worked with like a behavior organization in the UK and studied towards like a level six qualification, as you'd call it in, uh, England, which is where I developed more understanding of the science. But at that point as well, it was, uh, it was like a crossover for me, because after meeting Mike, I then met a gentleman named John who like very much fulfilled a dad-like role for me.
Um, and he was really involved with working Malinois and traveling to and from Europe for a sport called Mondioring, which is basically obedience, agility and criminal apprehension or biting. And again, another person, Brian, that I just can't kind of thank God for meeting him because it's changed the whole course of trajectory of my life because he afforded me the opportunity to travel to and from Europe with him to ring sport clubs, um, to competitions.
And when I was in my sort of young twenties, I become the first person in the UK to license, to wear the bike costume in competitions in Europe, which was fantastic. I was so lucky to be able to do that and still being in sort of young twenties, I was, I was gathering so much experience so rapidly because basically I was working from seven or six in the morning until about two or three in the afternoon at the joiner shop.
And then either heading off, I was in Watford and the gentleman that helped me, John was in Herefordshire. Sometimes I'd go there in the evenings during the course of the week, it was like a two and a half hour drive. I just got up there to train dogs and then we'd be off to Europe at the weekends to competitions and to different clubs to wear the costume. I was completely obsessed, like completely obsessed with it.
And then that allowed me to develop like a very unique skillset within like the group that I mixed with, because it gave me such a great, such a great understanding of the predatory motor pattern, such a great understanding of how to utilize it. And basically such a great understanding of how to effectively work with dogs biting stuff, which was super, like it worked really, really well. And then off of that, we were also training dogs for the police, training dogs for the military.
I started to deliver some seminars to like different police and military organizations in the UK, which then led to me working as an instructor for the police. So I went to deliver a few seminars and was offered a job as a civilian instructor for Wiltshire Constabulary, which at the time was trifle. So it was like Gloucestershire Police, Avon and Somerset and Wiltshire, which I really, really enjoyed. That again was a super unique, a unique experience for me to be able to go ahead with.
And it brought it a little bit full circle as well, to be honest with you, because the premise of grandad being a police dog handler, that's always what I thought I'd wanted to do as I got older. I realized it was training dogs that I wanted to do more than anything else. And I got to sort of fulfill that role with the police, which was superb. At the same time, the business was was doing really, really well. And I was I was doing the police job because I absolutely loved it.
It was pure reinforcement. I kept on turning down opportunities to to do things because I was I was busy training police dogs. At the same time, like around about when I started working for the police, I'd started to develop my version of introducing what I was doing with the biting dogs to people from different aspects outside of a biting sport setting. And that's when I sort of hashed the term interactive play.
And basically that was developing when I worked with sports dogs in my younger years, it was very much considered that if a dog was able to to bite out of the gate, they were a good dog. They had the ability to do so. But there seemed to be such limited allowance for dogs that couldn't do it organically or their genetic influence on behavior wasn't so prominent that it just come to them really quickly.
So the big dogs, the dogs that had all of that gas in the tank, so to speak, they're so easy, like you're just working for the process and you're really developing technicalities as they progress on.
But I really started to enjoy building the dogs, like building the ones that couldn't quite do it, or people think that people thought that they couldn't quite do it and like watching them grow during the course of training sessions and, you know, going from this dog isn't going to be able to do it to the dog being able to bite a man or a lady in a bike costume was for me.
It really, really turned my cogs even more so than the other bits that I was doing because I was doing so much behavior work at the time. When you teach a puppy to run, you run them through a ring sport process. You basically start off with a rag or a rolled up tea towel. And a lot of the time, the movement of the people trying to teach the puppies to bite was super, super limited. Like it was very static.
And like I because I learn in France where everything is very movement orientated, I developed like a real sharp, snappy style of movement, which again ties back to the predatory motor pattern. So I started thinking, you know what? There's definite premise in using this with the dogs that I'm working with at home. So on behavior consultations or one to ones on training, I started to introduce play basically as and when I could. And it just made such a difference. Ryan, like they were dogs.
I've historically worked through the course of my consulting career with Malinois, Dutch shepherds, German shepherds, rots in the old day, more so Dobermans, Border Collies, Labradors, dogs that have got a relatively strong time back to the predatory motor pattern and bull breeds specifically for sort of redirected biting issues.
And some of those dogs, I am absolutely positive that giving them a sustainable outlet to do in a large portion what they're bred to do save their lives, because there were so many dogs that were experiencing or people that were experiencing biting related issues with the dogs. And it certainly wasn't agonistic behavior. It was basically fluctuations and arousal due to insufficient outlet or unmet needs during the course of the dog's day to day.
And, you know, when you say to a person, again, this was a good few years ago when you're talking to somebody of a bull breed, like we're going to teach this dog to bite this thing. You're going to just imagine like a person sitting there with this dog that's biting stuff. You know, hold on a minute. You're going to teach the dog to bite stuff. We want to stop it by itself. But that worked really, really well. And I started to systemize it into the interactive system that I developed.
And at the same time, I was approached because I started to deliver workshops on it for sporting people. I've got a really good friend of mine who's involved with different sort of sporting organizations in the UK. And I met him early on and he asked me to go and deliver a biting seminar for him after being on a biting seminar with me. And through that, I met people from different sports, people that were involved in agility, obedience.
And I got asked by a lady to go and deliver some motivational style play delivery to a group of agility people. And from there, it just blew up, right? Like I was super clever with my limited marketing knowledge at the time. What I did was made like a really prominent effort with outreach and basically making friends with as many different on Facebook or agility organizations in different locations over the world and in different locations over the UK.
And I also got into the habit really early of sharing all of the group photos and the content from the workshops I was doing. And, you know, it's high. I was doing some weeks, five or six seminars a week. They were like it was 18 dogs a day and I'd be doing them. God, for a good few years, back to back, just like seminar after seminar after seminar. And at the same time as it was blowing up, somebody approached me to write a book and said, would you be interested in writing a book?
Obviously, at that point, I was like, yes, 100 percent. Not really having any idea the commitment that was involved in writing a book. But I went ahead with it anyway. And luckily, because I was so young, filled with enthusiasm and energy, writing the book was one of the easier things. Editing the book wasn't so or proofreading the book wasn't so easy, but getting all of the information down on paper was pretty easy because it was just it was in my head.
So I just have like big work blocks in the evening, sit down and sort of zone in and get all written out. I wrote the book. I was really fortunate to launch that at Crufts in the UK. And the book did, you know, from from my perspective, what I wanted to make was a practical, actionable guide that people could take training with them. The book is only like that big.
And I wanted people to be able to fit into their training vest, go and try something, read, double check, highlight, scribble all over it, and it really to be a practical training guide. And I think the book in its creation did exactly what I wanted it to. And I've had lovely feedback from it, from people all over the world, which is superb.
And then so as I've worked through that process, what I was also delivering or started to deliver was like arousal related workshops and working a lot in group settings with dogs with problematic behaviors. I deliver a seminar called Communication, Arousal and Problematic Behaviors, which I've also delivered all over the world, which is another another one I do really regularly. And then through working with so many different people, I got opportunities.
I'd already done seminars and CPD for the police and the military organizations in the UK, because that's very much been my wheelhouse. I then got invites from places such as Battersea Dogs Home, the Dogs Trust, Blue Cross and other rescue organizations over the UK, assistance organizations in the UK. People like Victoria Stilwell, I've spoken for their organization. I was super, super fortunate.
And, you know, at this point, right, I've been very lucky for the last over a decade now to travel all over the world, delivering seminars. I've been to, you know, Australia, Singapore, Mainland Europe, the USA. I feel so, so fortunate. Like it's it's really sparked. And I've taught on all different subjects across the world. And as I was doing that, the the bump that I had was that I couldn't continue to deliver in-person sessions from a behavior perspective, as I was doing before.
I left the police ultimately because of the commitment and wanting to grow the business. And when I left the police, I then ended up with another sort of first world problem with regards to I can't deliver as many behavior consults as I would like, because, you know, I can't be there in person because I'm traveling, you know, every weekend. There was a point where I was getting on a plane a couple of times a month to travel. So that's where I come up with my coaching model.
And basically, I manipulated my behavior consultation process to doing it primarily, well, all exclusively online, which worked really, really well. And that allowed me to facilitate a really, really good amount of clients over the course of a monthly basis. And, you know, tick everybody's boxes, fulfill everybody's needs with a coaching model that revolved around like daily feedback and video critique, which which worked really, really well.
And then a lot of that the audience I was working with was split between people with relatively severe behavior problems or people that were dog trainers experience or behavior consultants are experiencing problems with their own dogs. And they basically needed an external set of eyes to help them work it through. And at that point, one of the guys I was working with asked me if I would give him some help with his business. And I was like, yeah, sure. So I said, I'll do it for free.
Let's have a look. And I sort of had an overview of his business. And it turned out that it worked really, really well, which is so I thought, oh, God, there's something to this last a couple of other people that I was working with. Can I just give you some free guidance and help just to say, I'm just like testing something out or testing the water out with stuff. And it basically spiraled at the same time. God, I'm missing stuff out even worse.
So at the same time, we'd recently we'd invested in a farm. So I'd started doing this sort of business consultancy in inverted commas, and then we'd invested in what is Isla Farm in the UK. The there would have been what would have been the timeline. It must have been a couple of years before we bought the farm. But I started to do the business consultancy stuff.
So we invested in the farm, which is now the Ogilvy Dogs training center in Isla Farm with like the air B&Bs and stuff and the sense that we have in the UK. So on the build up to that, I was I was already really quite business minded, very, very fortunate to be so because we also had like an investment portfolio for the properties that we've got. And that's like one of the other businesses that we own. So I started to help the gentlemen and the guys and girls with the business stuff.
And then I thought, all right, there's definitely something to this. Let me go away and get some additional training. So I went away and got some proper training. This is all whilst we were continuing to invest in the property stuff. We just got the farm and we'd started to lock eyes on the center building, the business consultancy. I never actively advertised at that point. I was just working with people within my group that were asking for help.
And it started to spread a little bit by word of mouth. And then COVID hit, which was like 2020. So the coaching business was firing on all cylinders. And the business mentoring was just building little by little. And it wasn't like my prominent focus at the point in time. So we just got this farm in born in England. And luckily, I mean, COVID was obviously a terrible time.
But it actually was a it was a really, really productive period of time for the development of Ogilvy Dogs, because the farm was just all over the place when we got there. It was an absolute dump. There was everything was in as worse condition as it could be. And it basically needed demolishing, flattening, getting ready to go for the center to go up, which we'd already put planning permission in for. But it had been stumped because of COVID.
So over the course of the COVID period, we basically spent a load of time flattening the farm out. The coaching business was running so well, I was spending about six hours as a work block or two work blocks in the morning, first three hours. And then I'd go off and work out and come back and do another three hours. So because I get up so early by around about 10, 11 o'clock, my day's work, so to speak, it was done because I wasn't traveling or anything anymore.
And we just spent the rest of the day flattening out the farm. And then COVID passed. We built the Ogilvy Dogs training center. And at the same time, running in parallel, the business mentoring started to become more and more prominent. And I started to onboard people. I started to sort of advertise it for it actively, still traveling and delivering seminars as well. But because sort of the commitment with the mentoring was starting to become more and more so, a little bit less so of my choice.
But it was it was all the fact of wanting to continue to travel, to stay sharp. That's something I'm really big on. Like, I never, ever want my practical skills to perish. Still, at this point, I travel relatively regularly. So as the business venture was building, the Ogilvy Dog Center was launched and established, which we've been very lucky with. It's been super well. It's like a one of only a few training facilities of its type in the UK and arguably the best one.
Obviously, I'm a little bit biased with that, but arguably the best one in the UK. And then the business mentoring started to get to a point where I needed to onboard some people and create a an agency, so to speak, so that we could do everything internally.
At which point I soft launched Big Bark Media, which is the media agency that I own, me along with my marketing executives and sort of small team that work to facilitate the business needs of lots and lots of dog related, not just dog trading, but dog related businesses across the UK. So I've been really, really fortunate with the really, really fortunate with the business mentoring.
That is the primary sort of time spent at the moment for me, I spend the majority of my time consulting businesses internationally, along with the team. And then we got it. So it's a long story, right? I feel like I'm talking at you straight for half an hour. And then after that, me and my wife got married in the center, actually. It was the first event we had like the our wedding in the center. And because work was so busy, we didn't get time to go on a honeymoon.
So a year later, I was teaching in Cyprus, which I've done sort of every other year for a good amount of years. I've got a really lovely relationship with a lady there that works closely with rescue centers. And Max asked me if I would go out and teach. And we sort of said, oh, you know, why don't we go and have a little bit of a honeymoon? And this was the first time Ryan in. I don't know how long I'd been on holiday, like I've, you know, self-confessed workaholic, but through choice.
And I really, really find it reinforcing. So we went off and went to Cyprus. I talk for a couple of days and we had like a week or ten days or so in Cyprus. And it was the first time in a long time that I realized how much difference the weather made just to life in general, because when I go on holiday, I always work or do a big chunk of work first thing in the morning. And it was just different.
Like I answer a lot of my consulting messages when I'm either walking or I'll do them on the laptop and just having a warm climate and not being clambered up inside or having to wrap up like a snowman every time you go outside makes such a difference to the day. And me and my wife was sitting down talking during downtime. And I was like, you know, what's stopping us finding somewhere in a different country? You know, everything ultimately now does not rely on us being in one location.
We could ultimately move to somewhere else. So we talked about a little bit. And then the following year we went to Thailand. Again, exactly the same experience. I was like, absolutely love the weather. Like I love everything about all of the stuff that we've created in the UK. But the weather is the real blip point for us. So that's when we started thinking a little bit more seriously about at least getting somewhere that we could spend a little bit more time for the course of a year.
And the businesses at this point were continuing to grow. I'd onboarded some more staff at Big Bark Media. And the Mentrum was was still the primary focus with the Ogilvy Dog Centre still doing really well and still traveling through the course of the year, which I'm so super fortunate to do. I'm very, very lucky. And then at the beginning of this year, we decided to trial Spain for a month of sort of remote working. So we went off to Spain for a month and worked remotely and come on back.
And whilst we were there, it was about time to invest in another property within the property company. And we decided that what we would do is rather than buy somewhere in the UK to use primarily as a as a rental, that we'd look at buying a holiday slash location time that we'd spend some more time in through the course of the year in Spain. And that's what we did.
So we bought a property in Spain and we've spent like the last few weeks here over the course of this year, which is our first time being here, which I really, really like. And the plan is now basically to spend time alternating between the UK and Spain, dependent on the weather and sort of visas and everything else that we need to collect for being here. And that's where I am now, my man. I'm sorry, I feel like I've spoke to you for like a straight half an hour. It's been 25 minutes.
That's good. That's the longest I've ever spoken to somebody ever in my life. I was hoping you were going to interrupt me. I did. I said, Leslie Ben-Devitt and Karen Overall. I was I was telling Craig to listen, talking to the listeners. Now, Craig, I was telling Craig before we push record everyone that I was listening to, correct me Craig, Debbie, Debbie, Debbie Potter. I was listening to Debbie, Debbie Potter's podcast with Craig as I was putting my daughter to sleep before we recorded this.
And Debbie asked Craig to share a little bit about his life. And Craig said, I'm going to give you the short version. So I told Craig before we push record today, none of that. And so thank you for listening to what I requested before we push record. Hey, you know, my dad's name, Craig, was Michael John Carledge. So he's got both of your mentors wrapped up in his name. With any group, and he's been a lot of his childhood in Cyprus. So I mean, oh, we did go Michael, Michael.
What's Michael's last name? I feel like I want to give proper credit to these. Michael Woods, Michael Woods and John John Rumble. John, I mean, Rumble. How could you not say his last name? If anyone if anyone's got kids and they watch Paw Patrol, like Rumble's like a big deal. Craig, now, it's inspiring what you've shared. I mean, I'm not sure of as many listeners still listening. We talk about them.
Yeah, well, I mean, there's probably no one listening now, but for the one or two people that are still here, because they left it on in the background or whatever. Now, not many of them probably have properties in Spain and kind of have the opportunity or the feel like they have the resources or like the the mindset to believe that that's even possible. So you're living it. We're listening to it for half an hour. We're listening to it, and it's and it's and it's and it's super inspiring.
Christian, what time do you get up in the morning between three thirty and four a .m. three thirty and four a.m. How long have you done that for? When I was a kid at school, I was overweight for a large portion of my childhood, probably. Well, for as long as I could remember. And I remember when I was a teenager, I think about 13 or 14. I just got tired of being overweight. You know, typical problems with with being overweight, being at school, being a teenager, et cetera.
So I decided in all of my wisdom that the best thing to do was to get up in the morning and go to school at like five a.m. and run laps of the track until I got skinny. So I think the habit started there. And I don't know where I got that from, right? I've got no idea. My mom is an incredibly motivated lady. She's always worked really hard and she was like a single parent for the large majority of her life.
So it's like seeing her work really hard, get up early, go to work, I think subconsciously must have had an influence on me. Although if you'd have asked me at the time, it was just direct action to reinforcement. I was like, if I run, I'm going to lose weight. If I lose weight, I'm going to be happier, which was certainly the case. Yeah. I mean, I tell people I get up at five and that's shocking to a lot of people, I think. Well, these are these are potentially deeply personal questions.
So you can tell me what time do you go to bed? Like how long is your day? It's actually got it's got much later since we've been in Spain for the last few weeks. If I was single, Ryan, I'd be asleep at seven o'clock. I'm definite certain I'd be asleep at seven p.m. But normally now between eight and nine. So like try to get to bed between eight and nine in the evening. So usually go up to bed for eight and I'm fast asleep by nine o'clock. Like it would be the absolute latest.
There's not there's not there's not eight hours of sleep now. I'm on this like premise that that's important. I don't know the science behind it. It's usually around about seven. I mean, when I was younger and I was like completely mad, I'd be getting like four or five hours sleep at night, like I just just worked through all of the time. But now like between like seven hours is absolutely superb. If I can get a little bit more than that, it also works fantastically.
But yeah, like seven to eight hours a night is is ideal. So what so you've shared with us about your dog training and doing your seminars and traveling the world. And I've met a lot of people. And this is I don't know this is based on, but I just get a lot of people who listen to this would love to do that. That would be quite fun, a fun job, a fun position to be in that you are sought after across the globe. And you get to see all of these places and you get to meet all of these people.
Yeah, so, so forth. And then you've got your property portfolio and you've got your media business, which is creating websites. And it's basically in addition, it's tailored specifically to suit the needs of dog related businesses. So one of the things that we always struggled with when we were building was sort of conventional understanding of what was needed specifically for a dog trainer.
And I created it to scratch our own itch, because basically when I started the mentoring process, we were outsourcing a large portion of the meat, portion of the media work. And unfortunately, like time delays and, you know, not having a solid communication loop with the external company, not getting things done quickly enough led to me going, OK, let me on board my own little team.
And I've got like a little team of assassins, as I call them, which work for us, and they do fantastically with all of the businesses that we work with. But it's directed at all of the media needs for dog training or dog related businesses. So like, are you satisfied with your current success? And that's why I'm laughing as I ask that question. I was going to say, well, how do you, if you're never happy, how do you how do you define success?
For me, I think I think happiness and success are two different things. I think success is dependent on the peer group or the goals that you look for. And for me, although I haven't got like a massive social circle by any stretch of the imagination, the people that I aspire to be like are far beyond me. I'd say happiness is consistent reinforcement in the actions that you follow on a day to day basis. And from my perspective, I'm very happy with the things I do on a day to day basis.
I like getting up early. I like doing a big chunk of work first thing in the morning. I like going to the gym. I like training my dogs. I like seeing my wife. I like being in the sunshine. I love traveling internationally, like I'm going to Australia and Switzerland later on this month to teach. And I look forward to those trips, training the dogs. I was in Denmark the weekend before last.
I love consulting for businesses and helping people grow and watching them, you know, make more money than they thought that they ever could do as part of the process. So I think happiness is just reinforcement in the actions that you follow on a day by day basis. Does that make sense? Yeah, well, it reminds me of what Susan shares and potentially others. I couldn't credit the source of this. And other people have said that well, depression is a lack of reinforcement.
And then the opposite is happiness is an abundance of reinforcement. How do you frame it? Can you say that again? So I think happiness is consistent reinforcement in the actions that you take on a day to day basis. So the behaviors you're doing are attached to reinforcement. You're reinforced for the things you're doing. Exactly.
Yeah. So because every day you've got most people are stuck in a rhythm of doing things on a day to day basis, in my experience, that they have limited associative reinforcement around. And then that drives the outcome for the end of the day. And if like we're very lucky as animal trainers, I like to think that a good portion of people that we work with are very happy with what they do on a day to day basis.
But if you look at somebody that's unhappy, it usually ties back to the structure of the routine that they follow on a day to day basis. Well, yeah. And I'm reinforced for getting up at 5 a.m. and you're reinforced for getting up at 3.30 a.m. My daughter often gets me up at three. One of my daughters anyway, she gets up at 3.30 a.m. anyway. But I'm not reinforced for that, Craig. What do you think? So so your success, you also said that you people you aspire to be like are far beyond you.
Did you say that? Is that how you phrase that? What do you mean by that? I mean, a large portion of, you know, when people say like you need to get a mentor or you need to have somebody to look up to. I very much had that in John and Mike when I was younger. And I love them both for it. And like from a business perspective, the majority of inspiration or motivation that I've got has been from listening to podcasts or listening to people that have achieved great heights.
The small group that I've got are all way above me in sort of business development, which is great, as you're always looking to aspire to be like those people. So I think again, I think like success and happiness, I think success is subjective, isn't it, depending on the on the person? Because, you know, there's lots of people that have a really, really lovely family, are super happy, and they that they've achieved ultimate success.
And my version of success, I guess, in their version of success is two completely different things. I think that I just think that sometimes like the word successful is so super objective, isn't it? It depends on where you're at in life and what you want to what you want to achieve. Is there a different word that resonates more with you? Good question. I just think it's all about happiness, right? To be honest with you, that sounds super soppy of me. No, that's known.
I just think it's a love that answer. Yeah, I think I think it's about being happy. I think we've got a finite amount of time on this earth. But most of us, if we're lucky, are going to make it to 85 or 90, which means I'm nearly halfway through my adult life. And I don't want to spend the days doing things. I worked in a joining shop when I was young. I hated it, right? I hated it so much. Like it was like the worst thing ever. And it's like all I wanted to do was to train dogs all of the time.
And I remember like having this morning where I sat in my van before going into work and I was working really hard to try to change. And this is a well, I guess it's it's all related. So I'll tell like I sat in my van in the morning. I was in my early 20s, like mid mid to early 20s. And I remember thinking, but I just want this to change like whatever I need to do to get this to change.
And at that weekend or the Thursday, I think it was I was delivering a seminar for biting dogs and I got married when I was really young. And I got a message whilst I was doing the seminar. And my wife said at the time, like, I can't do this anymore. I'm off. I'm leaving. I'm not coming back. And I remember having like this obviously like immediate upset and being like, oh, God, like, what have I done?
And then, you know, after some conversation back and forth, like I just had this moment of like, I'm obviously not making this person happy. Without this relationship, maybe this is what I'm being given to do the things I wanted in my life improved like tenfold from that point moving forward because I was able to, you know, work and train dogs full time. And I tried to never, ever, ever lose the the gratitude for being able to do what I do every day. It's like it's it's so fortunate.
There's so many people that would kill to do what I get to do. And it's like I never, ever lose the gratitude for it, because I think it's it's it's the things that you do on a day by day basis that make you happy. You know, does that make sense? It does. And it potentially answers my next question. And I was going to phrase it something along the line of what do you think is one of the biggest things that has led to your success?
But you your answer before wouldn't make that question need to be reframed. So I came up with. So what do you think has been the biggest thing that has led to you being able to craft a life that has led to an abundance of happiness? But you said something I think is really pivotal there, and that is to try not to lose gratitude for what you're doing every day. And I know for me, I wasn't super happy when I was young. And in my head, my self talk wasn't very empowering.
It was a bit self degrading. And I listened to a lot of books. I listened to a lot. I read a lot. I listened to Anthony Robbins. And one thing he told me that he said at the time was to walk every day and spend 15 concentrated moments thinking about gratitude and the things you're grateful for. And that changed my life. And it was probably allowed me to connect with happiness. I think I don't know why, but that stuck out to me.
How do you then, if you try not to lose gratitude for doing what you do every day, do you have intentional strategies that you employ to allow you to stay connected to that gratitude? Yeah, 100 percent. So for me, I also think that gratitude has a good amount to do with being uncomfortable as well, which sounds really counterproductive. But I also like to get uncomfortable multiple times per week.
Before we did this podcast early this morning, Ryan, once I finished my work block, I run up the mountain that we've got outside of my house. I genuinely thought I was going to have a like a heart attack or something. It was so hard to run up because it's so steep and the altitude so high.
And I think that having moments whereas you're able to completely remove yourself from what you do on a day to day basis, concentrate on the task within you that you're doing, the task in front of you gives you like a real exceptional amount of clarity, because it's if the task is really hard and it makes you uncomfortable, you can't really focus on anything else. You have to focus on the thing and getting it done.
And I think that acts as like a form of meditation, which then post that allows you to reflect. So I finished the run, for example, and I was like overview of my schedule. And I was like, I'm excited for the podcast with Ryan this morning. And then I've got consult calls with Jess and Chris and all of these other people that I'm talking to today. And then I'm going to go later on this evening, agility training with my wife because she's prepping for a competition that she's doing.
So it's just like I think that that period each day of active reset, which involves either a little bit of being uncomfortable or doing something that you can completely commit to that can be walking. If you don't want to get out and go out in the cold, that certainly would be the case for me in the UK. It can be going to the gym. I can be going for a jog. It can be meditate and it can be whatever you like.
But I think it's necessary for everybody to have some type of an active reset every day so that it just gives you a sense of reality. Otherwise, you just end up rolling with the punches all day long. And it's like, I've got to get up and I've got to be at this appointment. And, you know, this client's being a bit of a pain in the bum. And, oh, God, I don't know if I've done that good a job with this dog. And what am I going to do with this here and how about that?
And I don't think they give themselves or a majority of people give themselves any time for active reflection. And I think if you can just take 50, it took me 20 minutes to run up there and back this morning because it's not a gym day. I'd usually go to the gym, but it's a rest day. And like after the 20 minutes, like it's it's such an active reset. Does that make sense? It does.
And do you mean because because initially I hadn't connected physical discomfort, was it was it was the hill run physically uncomfortable? It was horrible, right? Like I didn't enjoy it, but I thought when I got to the top of it, it was going to be a problem. Am I wrong? Well, because you're going to pass out and then no one will find you or something. I thought, yes, I was I was struggling to breathe. But at that time, I couldn't focus on anything else.
But keeping one foot going in front of the other and breathing to make sure that I didn't have some type of a an asthma attack or something. You know, I remember when I was working at Wellington Zoo and they had conservation leave so you could get paid to go do some conservation project. So I went into the mountains here in New Zealand with the Kia Conservation Trust, Kias are mountain parrots that live in New Zealand, and we track them. And I climbed the biggest mountain I've ever climbed.
But it was hard and I wasn't super fit. And I just remember thinking one foot in front of the other, one foot in front of the other, because because it was so hard by the end of that, getting to the top of that hill. And the Kia conservation guys were at the top filming me as I came up laughing at me, throwing things at me like they're great guys. And we had a lot of fun. But that's so vivid, that memory of just the hardness in a one foot.
And so I completely understand, I think, because because that was a long time ago and because it's so vivid in my mind and because you literally see one foot in front of the other. Yeah, I think it's for me, it's just a moment or a period of time where you do something that is ultimately that is for you, that is challenging enough that you can't think about anything else.
Because I think that that acts as a form of meditation and allows you to then reflect on the things post that you're really happy with. Because, you know, if somebody is upset, down, not having a good day, you know, I'm very, very fortunate to work with tons and tons of people developing businesses. And I work with people that have that type of thing all of the time. It's no good me saying to somebody that's really upset about something.
You just need to think how lucky you are to be doing this, because it's so counterproductive to say to them when they're having this really bad time. Well, you should be so grateful you get to train dogs every day because it doesn't work like that. So what I'll say to them is always like, OK, let's think about this. Let's get out. Go for a walk. Go for a jog with the dogs. Go for a bike ride. Go for a swim. What what part of movement do you find reinforcing?
And they're like, well, I don't really like this bit of I'll go for a bike ride. And they go out for a bike ride as part of the bike ride. They inevitably like get their body moving a little bit more. So they can't really focus on much else but riding because that's and then they get back. And I think it just gives you a functional reset. So it's sort of I guess it turns the question on its head a little bit with regards to what are the processes that you use to stay actively grateful.
I think you need a reset process or to do something that allows you to reset your mind to stay grateful, because I think it's not, you know, if you speak to somebody that's got, you know, like a job that they're not fond of and they've got like a lovely wife and kids at home and you tell them to be grateful for their wife and kids and they're, you know, doing something that they absolutely despise.
There's such a disconnect between those two things, because, yeah, they love their wife and kids, but it doesn't make the things that they're doing at that time any less undesirable. And I think having the reset allows you to really reflect on the things that you're grateful for. But also it gives you clarity to start to think about changing the things that you're not happy with.
And looking at the time, one other thing I really want to ask you, but just before we jump off this topic, do you only mean physically uncomfortable or do you also mean mentally uncomfortable? Mentally uncomfortable. Like yesterday morning, I'm learning Spanish and I did a Spanish lesson yesterday morning. And for me, physicality or moving is really important. That is my active reset. But after that Spanish lesson, right.
And, you know, taking into account that I, you know, do high level problem solving all day long is a new problem to solve. It's not animal behavior analysis. It's not business strategy development. It's learning a language like I'm back at school, which is something I find really challenging. And again, I wasn't able to focus on anything at all. I didn't look at a single notification.
All I focused on was the lady and the group of people and answering the questions and trying to compute all of the information. So that, again, gives me another feeling of complete active reset. It can be reading a book, listening to a podcast, but you've got to have something to remove your mind from what's in front of you. Otherwise, you end up very reactive, so to speak, to the circumstances that you're dealt, and I think that impedes your ability to become truly grateful.
Well, I really appreciate you sharing all of it. Thank you very much. And the one thing I wanted to ask before we jumped off this episode, we're going to talk about play in part to everyone. But in a short time, you know, I've been connected, Craig, and there's conversations we've had and what I've read about you online and what I've listened to on other people's podcast shows is I get. And you've said it here today.
And so the listeners of this episode have heard the importance of the mentors in your life. And is it is it full circle now that you've come back to offering that to others now? Can you speak to the importance of mentorship? Yeah, for sure. I mean, certainly for me, like John and Mike specifically are two of the people that I love to death, like they've been so irreplaceable in my life.
And if you'd have asked me, Ryan, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, 12 years ago, if I was going to facilitate a business mentoring role amongst dog trainers, I just said, all I want to do is train dogs. And, you know, still to this time, I train dogs in my free time all of the time because it's what I find reinforcing.
But there's something hugely reinforcing about trying to help people get on their way when they're getting started out or they're in the middle of a journey and they don't know quite what to do, because I've been very fortunate. Well, I'm super, super lucky to have all of the experience that I have, you know, in the multitude of aspects of business development and dog training or the dog world specifically.
And it's just it's really fun, Brian, you know, watching people because it's never easy, you know, building a dog training business, a behavior consultancy business, a grooming business, etc. etc. It always comes with its own set of challenges. But it's really reinforcing for me being able to help those people work through the bumps and make the trajectory of point A to point B much easier for them and having somebody to go. Oh, you know, I'm struggling with this. What would you do?
And I go, oh, well, you know, there's five different ways to do that. This is the way that I would do it. But there's also these options as well. What one sounds best to you? And I go, oh, I'll do it the way that you do it. And I say, you sure? Because, you know, these other options are legit as well. But that's definitely what I would do. And I go, OK, perfect.
So it's just it saves people so much time and it allows you to help them, you know, project and and achieve what they're capable of in training dogs and working with animals rather than having to stress about all of the other parts that go into building a business. I do find it really reinforcing. It's something that I really enjoy. Like it's been a it's another chapter to the book that I didn't predict or set out to do actively.
But as with all of the things that I've done through the course of sort of my animal training career, there are they've always been things that have been presented to me and that there's been an opening. And I've sort of capitalized on the opening and thought, you know, that works really well. Why don't I try and do a little bit more of that? And it's always ended up working out. So I've been so super fortunate around, for sure. But yes, it's it's so reinforcing.
Well, I've got a million questions about we've been going for a solid hour, I think nearly by the time we add the intros and outros and everything. Craig, this episode will be roughly an hour long. So unfortunately, I'm going to have to not ask all of the million questions I have for you, but rather share gratitude to you for sharing what we love to call your behavioral odyssey with us. We love hearing about people's journey. So thank you very much for sharing yours with us, Craig.
Just before we do officially wrap up, though, part one of this episode, could you share with everyone listening where they can go to learn more about you, the services you offer, the mentoring you were just talking about and how they can get in touch? Instagram is the easiest place to drop us a message. So Craig Ogilvy Dogs on Instagram. The website is OgilvyDogs.com. But if you want to chat or have a conversation, just fire us a message over on Instagram.
I'm also on TikTok and Facebook, all of the same handles. But if you need anything, Instagram is my most used platform to drop us a message. Fantastic. And we will, of course, link to all of that in the show notes as well. If that's easier for you, the listener. Craig, this has been so much fun. So from myself and on behalf of everyone listening, we really appreciate you taking the time to come and hang out with us. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me, Ryan.
And thank you so much for listening as well. This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off from this episode of the Animal Training Academy podcast show. We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox. Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery. Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and keep improving.
And don't forget the path to growing your skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this episode. Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive membership, where you will find a community of trainers just like you. Together, we're making a huge positive difference in the lives of animal and human learners worldwide. Until next time, keep honing your skills. Stay awesome. And remember, every interaction with an animal or human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of the way. See you at the next episode.