Hello, and welcome to the Animal Training Academy Making Ripples podcast show. The show where we share the stories of the Ripple-making extraordinaires with behavior nerd superpowers who make up the Animal Training Academy membership. I'm your host and one of the happiness engineers at Animal Training Academy, Shelley Wood from Drop Your Jaws Dog Training in Cape Girardeau, Missouri in the United States. We're absolutely thrilled and grateful to have you here with us today.
Make sure you go ahead and hit that subscribe button so that you don't miss a single episode. This show is brought to you on behalf of the Animal Training Academy membership. So if you like the conversations in these episodes, then we want to invite you to continue them with like-minded people in the ATA membership, which you can find out more about at www.atamember.com.
Within the membership, you can get access to twice monthly live web classes, the back catalog of previous web class replays, plus a huge library of videos and projects to help you problem solve your training challenges. And we're a sociable bunch with an exclusive private Facebook group and forums area. It's like a Netflix social media platform for animal behavior geeks. Today we are excited to welcome Pramila Elving to the show. Since childhood, Pramila's life has been intertwined with animals.
Growing up on a small farm, there were sheep, chickens, cows, pigs, and a lively assortment of cats and dogs. Those idyllic summers in the countryside felt endless. She persistently pestered her parents for her own horse, though her wish fell on deaf ears at the time. However, she made up for it in her later years. As an adult, Pramila began riding when a co-worker invited her to ride one of her horses.
That horse, who later became a cherished companion named Rockefeller, left an invaluable mark on her life. Their journey together spanned 25 years. Initially perceived as unruly, lazy, and stubborn, Rockefeller didn't respond well to traditional handling methods. Seeking a different approach, Pramila discovered Sally Swift's Centered Riding School.
There she learned to communicate with horses softly rather than commanding them, eventually becoming a centered riding instructor herself and continuing to teach others. Her path towards positive reinforcement training became clear when she took in a young injured horse named Charisma. Despite being labeled dangerous by several veterinarians who recommended euthanasia, Pramila was determined to give her a chance. Building trust with Charisma taught her invaluable lessons.
She expanded her expertise through courses by Mary Hunter, studied ethology, and deepened her understanding of canine behavior at the university. Currently enrolled in Carolina Franson's Horse Trainer Year Program and pursuing a scent work course for horses, Pramila remains an active member of Animal Training Academy, benefiting from a network of talented trainers and engaging in numerous available webinars.
Initially focusing on human behavior, Pramila trained in human resources, earned a master's degree in sociology, and worked as a manager for over two decades. A decade ago, she founded her own company, assuming roles as an interim manager, coach, and mental trainer. Her fascination with the complexities of behavior, whether in humans, animals, or herself, has been a driving force.
Observing life's intricacies, she recognized a common thread, understanding behavior leads to improved well-being and heightened animal welfare. Welcome, Pramila. We're so excited to have you here with us today. Thank you very much. I'm so glad to be here. So thank you for having me. Yeah, well, I'm excited to jump right in and get to know you better and learn more about you and some of the great stuff that you shared there in your bio.
Could you start us out today by telling us about your story, how you started working with animals, and how you first became interested in positive reinforcement training? Yeah. As it said in my bio, I have always had a lot of animals in my life and always very interested in behaviors and animals. I had a short session with positive reinforcement with my first horse, but I didn't really understand how I should use it because I was really into the traditional training with horses.
So it was first when I had my horse, Karisma, as you also mentioned from my bio, that really got me into this path with positive reinforcement. And now it's forever, so that's the way. And as you also said, I always wanted to have a horse when I was a young girl, and I never got a horse, but now I have several horses, and we also have cats and one dog. Unfortunately, one passed away just a couple of weeks ago. But with the horses, I started riding as an adult.
I had a short session when I was young with horses with some friends, but I started riding as an adult, and I bought a foal from a good friend at my work. And that was, of course, completely stupid because I had no experience. But I thought he was a cute horse, and my friend was about to sell him. And I had been with him from the very beginning when he was born. So I said, I have to buy him.
And as I had no experience, I asked other trainers, traditional trainers from the horse world who was a lot more experienced than I was, and I trusted them. And he was a very friendly horse, very friendly horse. But when I started riding him, he always threw me off. Not always, but often he threw me off. And it was really unpleasant because it came up from nowhere. It just was suddenly, and I couldn't find out when he was going to do it or when he was fine.
And I was told he was lazy, and I had to show who was the boss. And he was stupid and all that. And the trainers told me when he wasn't going forward, they told me that you had to wear longer spurs, I had to use my whip. So I wasn't at all kind to that horse. And also other people, because I asked other people to ride him for me, to help me, and they were really hard on him. So I became very sad when I had been taking lessons, and it wasn't fun.
And because I really liked the horse, but he didn't like it, and I couldn't find out why it was that hard. So I was about to stop riding and stop, because this wasn't my girl dream, to handle horses like this and to ride like this. And then I found an instructor. I googled and I found an instructor very nearby who was a centered riding instructor. And for those who don't know about centered riding, it's more about the rider than the horse.
And Felice would talk about the soft eye and the breathing and the centering and the mind and the awareness of both the mind and the body in the rider. And always if the horse doesn't do what you think that it might do, you go back to yourself. What did I say to the horse? It's a completely different way. And I remember very well when I rode the first time for this instructor, she asked me just to jump on Rockefeller and just ride a bit in the arena.
And then she just shouted me, stop, stop, stop. Because I rode that I've been trained to ride him. And she said that you can't ride that way. You have to use your body in a completely different way. So after a while, it started to get better. But he still threw me off. And there was something that wasn't good with him. And after a couple of years, I understood that he had a sore back. But I didn't realize that because I hadn't any experience.
So I didn't know what feeling I was looking for when I wasn't on a horse. So that was the first part to a softer communication with a horse. And the instructor often asked me, how little can you do to have the horse understand what you want to do with? Can you whisper to the horse? She often used that word. And if I see in the rear view, I see that my animal interest, my journey with my animal also have a connection to my professional life.
Because when I worked as a manager, I worked in several organizations with disabled people who were supposed to go back to work. It was so important to get a really good set up for each individual. So the set up was so important to get things to work for each person. And I met so many people during these years who showed abilities that no one ever thought that they should be able to do. And they go back to work. And I often think, compare this with the animals.
You don't think animals can do things. But if you give them the right set up and the right training, they are amazing. So it's a bit of a parallel. And it's behaviors in humans and it's behavior in animals you're looking for. And also when I train myself as a coach and psychological skill trainer, it's also about the same to what are you looking for? What do you want the animal to do? Or what do the human want to go to to have the right? What do they want to achieve? I couldn't find it.
And if there is something that's going wrong, it's only a lesson to learn. What should I change to the next time? So it's a bit of the same training, I should say. But to get back to my animals, what really led me into this positive reinforcement path was, as I told my horse, Karisma. And she was from the beginning. She is from a mare that I owned. And a good friend of mine had a foal from my mare. But Karisma got injured when she was one year old.
And that was the first time it was in her left hind leg. And we had to treat her. And we had to give her injections because she kicked and we were afraid to get hurt. And we were usually four persons to just be able to treat her leg. And I don't know the English word, but you use a kind of strap that you put around the horse's nose and then you turn it. And then they say it's to get the horse calm. And that is a very common way to get horses calm. And that's how you do it.
And she was, of course, she was so afraid, this poor horse. But we had to treat her leg. And I didn't know about anything else at that time. So she got afraid of injections. And this injury, it was fine after a while. But almost exactly one year after this first injury, she had another injury in the same leg. And this time it was much, much worse. And we had to go to a clinic to flush it. It was a serious joint injury. So it has to be cleaned up properly.
And we had help from the local vets to give her injections. So she get calmed and we could get her on the trailer. And we had five hours trip to the clinic. And when we came there at the clinic, we met a nurse who probably just wanted to go home and was very stressed. And we told her that you can't give her an injection just right away. She had to get a bit calm. But this nurse was very stressed. So she just got into the horse and started to put the needle in her neck.
And Charisma was very scared. So she wasn't actually able to put the needle where she was supposed to. And she told the owner and me that this was the worst horse she ever met. Charisma was a young horse, two years old. She was afraid. The journey had gone very well. So yeah, it wasn't a very first good meeting with this nurse. And Charisma was supposed to be treated the next morning. But unfortunately, the vet was sick. And we had to take the car and went home again.
And the clinic phoned my friend who owned the horse and said that we can move the horse from this clinic to another place where we can clean the joint. And of course, the owner said, yes, I'll do that. I had my trailer still there. And after, I think it was about three hours later, they phoned her again and told that they couldn't get Charisma on the trailer. And my friend had told them, you can't load her on a trailer without giving her very big injections, a lot of sedatives to get her calm.
But they hadn't given her nothing at all. So they said that during three hours, there were six people trying to get her on the trailer. And I'm glad I wasn't there to see what happened. But we said, we get in the car and go to the clinic because we said we had to try ourselves to get her to a place where they can clean the injury. And when we got up to the clinic, she was in her own box, in her own place.
And they hadn't even cared about to take her halter or she was standing there with a rope hanging. So I think that they were quite afraid of her because we also noticed that when she got afraid, she tried to fight. She wasn't and she isn't a horse who go away if she fights, if she gets angry, really angry. And they haven't been able to give her any medication at all because they couldn't give her anything to get her calmed. And but when we arrived, she wasn't angry at all.
She was just standing there and looked at us and was happy to see us. And they helped us to contact another clinic because the second one, which we were supposed to go to, has closed down. So there was a third clinic. And they told us that they can take her there if she, quote, behave. OK, this is a horse, a young horse, and he's afraid. Do you want us to tell her to behave? So it was a very strange clinic, I must say.
And when we were there, we got told that we could give injections by a doctor from a distance. And he came after a while and he said that I don't think this is going to work because horse animals, when they get very stressed, they produce a lot of things in their brain who go against this sedatives. So he looked in her journal and said that he hadn't seen a horse being given this much before. So I tried, he said. He gave her two shots, but she didn't even look tired.
So we said that we have to try ourselves. We have to try to get her on the trailer. So we took her out and we got her on the ramp and the trailer ramp. And but we couldn't get her any further. And we saw she had probably been fighting a lot when they tried to load her earlier because she was injured in the head and yeah, several places. So we had to give up. And our owner decided that they had to let her go to sleep next morning. And we put an empty trailer on my car.
And I thought when we were standing there that she doesn't look like she has any fever. She was very, she just looked at us with our big horse eyes. And I thought this is a young horse who is struggling for her life. And my only thought has been to get the injury flushed because a joint injury in a horse is very, very bad. So we put on the trailer and the horse owner was supposed to phone the clinic next morning. And we were crying and crying and crying for several hours when we were going home.
And of course, I couldn't sleep when I got home. And I thought we have to get this horse home. We have to try to treat her. And if it doesn't work, I said then my husband had to shoot her. That's the best way. It's horrible. But for the horse, that had been the best thing, I think. But I said she's going home. So I phoned the owner the next morning and said, I rent a truck. And then we rent a truck. I put my other horse on the truck. And that is Charisma's aunt.
And so they know each other very well. And then we took the trip back to the clinic for another five hours trip. And then we come up to the clinic. She was standing. It was late Friday night. And we said we take it easy. We sat down outside her box. When we came up, when we came, it was a lot. She had probably very. Her stomach was hurt because she had no water, no food in it. And all alone, she was probably quite stressed when she was standing there.
But we sat down outside and we had some coffee and egg sandwich. And before we know, people are going to be hungry when we start this, because we said we will keep this going until she's coming with us. And then we parked the trailer outside, opened the door and my other horse, Charisma's aunt, Charisma heard her and then they noticed each other. And Charisma immediately wanted to go to the truck. But we had some problems because her stomach was hurting a lot.
So she probably thought that it was us doing something because she got very angry at us when the stomach was hurting. But after a while, we could get her in the trailer, but she didn't know how to get her hind end in the trailer because this truck was another way of loading, a different way than my trailer was. So we had some rope to guide her hind end in the truck. And if she wanted to go out, she was allowed to because we didn't do it to push her in. We just tried to guide her hind end in.
And after a while, she was in the truck and then the owner shouted, close the door, close the door. And I said, no, we are not closing the door. We are going to unload again. So we took her out from the trailer because I didn't want a horse who was probably going to get scared when we closed the door. She could hurt herself. She could hurt my other horse. She could break the truck. So I said, we unload and then we take her on the truck again.
So the second time, she didn't know how to get in with the hind leg. So we closed and there was one kick in the wall and then she stood perfectly still all the way home without no medication to get found. And my other horse, she's from Switzerland, Charisma's own, she was on that trailer for over 12 hours. So she was a bit stiff, but she was amazing. So without her, we hadn't been able to have Charisma home. And it took about two hours.
So it was, I could have done this for several hours, but two hours and then we went home. And now she was home, we were going. We had to treat her leg. So there we go again. And her leg was to be treated every third day. And I couldn't give her any injections. The vet couldn't even come with the car outside before she gets completely stressed and angry and even angry at me.
And then I thought I had heard something about, I have a friend that has been for a long time for this positive reinforcement training, but I hadn't trained this way before. But I have heard about this start doctor behavior. And I go there and I found there are lots of resources, both good and bad, of course. But I could quite quick teach her to take a fake needle, fake injection. And then I could go to my local vet, get the first injections and give her the real injection.
And then the vet could come and give her more so she gets really calm. And we didn't have to use the strap around her nose. But before I trained her for this start button behavior, we were struggling the same way that we did before. So the vet at home also told the owner to let her go and to use the knife start because she was really dangerous and a big horse. So we were afraid to get hurt, all of us. But suddenly this really worked.
And this was the first big step for me into this type of training. And I thought that the whole time I thought that this horse isn't really angry. Yes, of course, she's angry, but she is angry because she is afraid. And she isn't a mean horse. She's a real friendly horse, but she's so afraid. So she tried to fight for her life. And now she's still at my farm. And now she's six years old. And we do a lot of trailer loading.
And I have taken this down to a lot of small, small pieces and building blocks. And train outside without a trailer. And today I have her on the trail now. And today we trained a backward chaining with a hoof target, nose target. And the end in the last behavior was to go into the transport to the trailer. So she was really calm today. So it was so... Yeah, I think we have a lot, a lot more work to do. But yeah, we have no time where we shall not go anyway. So yeah, and she's a lovely horse.
She's very big, but now she's very seldom get angry. There was a time when we had her treated that she was angry at every people who came into the stable. But now she's curious and like when people come. And we have several people who come here and train. And I think it's coming forward with her. So that's something. Yeah. What a wonderful story. Thank you so much for sharing all of that with us. It's a long story. It's a good story.
What a journey from the more traditional training methods, which I think a lot of us can relate to regardless of what species we train. And then evolving all these different little steps until you've worked your way all the way up to start buttons with Charisma, who we have the pleasure of seeing a lot of your work with Charisma in the Animal Training Academy community. And you're doing just beautiful things with her.
Some things that really stuck out to me that you talked about were, it was interesting hearing about the overlap from some of your other work. And how that connects to animal training. But whether you were talking about your other work or animal training, some of the things that really stuck out to me was the idea of... I can't remember if it... I don't think it was Charisma.
I think maybe it was Rockefeller you were talking about earlier, who you talked about some people saying, oh, he's lazy, need to show him who's the boss. He's stupid. And how we often throw these labels at individuals, or even if we don't use labels, how it can be a cultural norm sometimes to put the problem in the individual, rather than in the environment.
But what I hear you talking about was finding the solution in the environment and in the training plan, rather than some undefinable thing that's inside of the animal. I see you nodding. Do you? Yeah, yeah. And it's the same with humans. Because if you label them as what is a lazy person, what do this person do? That's interesting. And what would you like the person to do instead? It's the same with the animals. What do the animals do? And what would you like the animal to do?
So it's the same, but humans are a bit more complex because we think a lot also. Right, yeah. Absolutely, I think the same across species. And I think listening to you talk about charisma too, and the problems with her loading, the problems with her not being able to have veterinary care, up close and personal at certain times in her life. And is that problem because she is a bad horse and there is something wrong with her? Or is the problem and the solution, therefore, something else?
Can we adjust what we're doing to get that animal to exhibit the desired behavior? And yes, we can. The answer is yes, we can. And you have with charisma. And that is something I find more and more reinforcing for my sake. Because when I see that the animal doesn't understand, I can see it a bit stressed in the face. It can be a horse, it can be a dog. And it always gets me to think, what can I do different? What did I say, communicate to the animal to do?
Or what was I supposed to communicate, but I obviously didn't. So to find these solutions to get the animal to understand that is really reinforcing for me to break it down. What you just said there reminded me of another favorite thing that you talked about when you were sharing your journey into positive reinforcement training. And you talked about one of your teachers, I think, saying something to the effect of how little can you do to have the horse respond?
How small can we make our behavior to communicate to the other one? I think it's really good too. And horses are really amazing because we, as humans, we do a lot with our bodies all the time with our hands. And we change positions. And the more I train my horses and the more aware I get of my own body language, because they are fantastic to recognize these small, small, small moments as we do as humans. So as an animal trainer, I learn a lot of myself as well. So they are my best teachers.
They have a very different approach to when they are just doesn't understand. I have Rockefeller as he's 25 now and he's still with me. And I think he's not going to live forever. But he's fine. A bit stiff, but it's OK when we are a horse and 25 years. When he doesn't understand, he takes his front leg and he waves the front leg. So he does it quite slow. So it doesn't get dangerous in a way. But that tells me that now he doesn't understand.
So that's the behavior he picks when he doesn't understand. And Charisma, I taught her to when I put up my hand in the air, she puts her hind end to my hand. And that is a very strong behavior for her now. So if she doesn't understand, her hind end comes to me. And she's very big. So that's not very good all the time to have a big horse in the lap. And Ashka, a dog that I trained nail trimming, she was very afraid of that.
She got frustrated and she barks in my ear when I try to bring her, that's not very nice. So then I have to change something. So that's good. They are good teachers. They are good teachers. And you have already shared with us about a training related challenge with Charisma in the trailer. But I wonder if you have another training related challenge that you've experienced and that you could talk about how you've worked through it and some of the things that you've learned from it.
Mm-hmm. I mentioned Ashka, the dog. And this dog, it's my husband's son that owns her. But she's born here where I live from one of our dogs. But she was from the beginning very sensitive in her paws. So it was hard from the beginning to trim her nails. And then I saw at internet this called the bucket game. And I think I tried that. And it was better and better. But it was still not quite good. She was still a bit tense. And I didn't know even if she was looking at this bucket.
I put the bucket when I learned her teacher to look at this bucket with treats. I put that on a chair and I taught her chin rest on the chair. But even if she put her head on the chair and looked at this bucket, I, she was tensed. So I wasn't quite pleased with this still. But then I taught her to have, I start to train with a different, with an alternative behavior. And that from the beginning, that was a behavior I used to have, let her rest for a while, have a pause for a while.
But then I started to try to just have that. I have an air-filled pillow that she can put her front paws on. And then I started to have this just a side. And she could choose this other behavior whenever she wanted. And she got the same treat for that behavior that she got if she come to the chair with the chin rest and I could trim the nails. And when she was able to have that behavior, suddenly she started to come more and more to the chin rest.
And I even had to show her the other behavior just to remind her, you can also show this if you want to. But now she's very fine. And her owner can trim her nail the same way. And she's just fine. And he says that the back paws is chop-chop-chop. And sometimes he have to have a rest when he takes the front. But she's, so that was a challenge. And just to find these different solutions and just to see the behavior, what is she doing.
And also that she communicated that I do it, but I don't like it. And now she's more relaxed and do it very nice. So that was a challenge. And you've shared about that. You shared video of that work in Animal Training Academy and just absolutely beautiful training, really lovely. And is her owner able to maintain her nails now? Or are you still doing her nails? What's going on there? Yeah, he is doing her nails now. But I think that he is, you're always afraid to trim too long.
So sometimes when he come, can you have a look at if you can take a bit more? But that is not, that is more on his side. And I totally understand that. Because you really don't want to take too long on the nails. That, yeah, that's wonderful. And I understand that too. It can be challenging to know exactly how short to go or how long to leave them. So yeah, totally makes sense that he would still seek your support for that. And he's lucky to have you. Could you share with us now?
I think that everything you've shared so far fits the bill. But could you share with us now another training situation that you're proud of and or that you have found reinforcing? We have a young horse here also. She's called Belle. She is three years old now. And when you and I had contact a bit earlier, she was owned by my husband's daughter. But Belle has been living here since she was, I think, seven, eight months. And now she's three years old.
And I have been a bit afraid that the owner should sell her somewhere. But now she sold Belle, but she's still here. And she's bought by one of my friends who has been here for about one and a half year and trained together with Belle. So now we have started the riding with her. And this is just amazing. I have never been doing this, started a young horse like this in this way before. And to have her just free, no saddle, no bridle. She come to the mountain block. The rider can sit on her.
She can go between different stations. And now we have been in the forest. And I prepare in the forest and put out the buckets in the forest where she can go between these buckets and still no bridle, still no saddle. So people think it isn't that dangerous. But I have a very good coach and trainer. So I take this, I film this and send to Carolina. And she said, this is really looking good. She's very calm. She's not stressed. And this little horse is lovely because she's so curious.
So in the future, I think we don't have to use a lot of trees because her curiosity make her go forward. So sometimes she doesn't. Oh, there is something I would like to explore instead of going to the trees. So this is really fun to do. And it's really reinforcing. And it gives a really, really good feeling. No kicking, no. She's doing it because she thinks she really enjoy it. Yeah, go ahead. No, I should just say that I can see other people when they are going to train their horses.
And it makes me really sad to see how the young horses is treated. And I know I've been there myself. But now there are so much science about horses and training. So I think we could do better with the young horses, with horses as well, and other animals, of course. But I think that there are a lot of people who do this traditional way to force the horses. But this is really, really fun and reinforcing.
Yeah, that reminds me in the very beginning when you were talking about your experiences with traditional training. And I think also talking about Rockefeller then and talking about how this just isn't fun. And I think a lot of us who started in traditional training, regardless of the species we started with, can relate to that. We get into getting animals and living with them and training them and all of this because we love them so much.
And then when we use more forceful methods for some of us, it just isn't. It takes the fun out of it for us and for them, of course. But it sounds like you are definitely having fun now and the animals you live with are as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wonderful. And also, I also have a crossover. I call myself a crossover because I am. And I have this Karisma's aunt, Frislan. She's born here on the farm. She's 12 years old now. And I also trained her the traditional way.
But I think she was a bit shut down. When I tried to train her, I started with centered riding. So there was a lot more soft communication but still negative reinforcement training. And she was always a very, very tense force. And she got her, if you can see, I think that she got her pelvis a bit hunched under, tilted and very tense all the time. And she didn't like when you touched her. She didn't like to be brushed. But she was fine to ride. But there is something wrong with this horse.
So I stopped riding here for a couple of years ago. And I got to the vet and let her back, did an x-ray. And they ultrasounded her legs. And they could see that her psoas was very tense. It's the same with us humans. If you are all the time that you touch, you have a tense back. And so she had treatment with rehab and fascia treatment and a lot of things. And now I do only very, very behaviors and training that she can do very easily. And I put out buckets that she can find free.
And now I see that she's more and more relaxed. She always come to me when I come to the pasture. Earlier I had to chase her to get her in the stable. But now she's almost always the last one to leave when we are going from the pasture. And that gives me a very, very good feeling. And I don't know if I ever gonna ride her again. Because maybe she doesn't want to be ridden. And traditional people say that you can't let the horse beside this. Then the horse maybe not can be ridden at all.
Okay. Maybe. I do a lot of fun from the ground. What a lovely story as far as that. What was that horse's name that you were just talking about? Frickland. Oh, goodness. I don't think I can say that. Well, I love this story. And what a testament to your training that she was not coming to you. She wasn't seeking you out and wanting necessarily to be near you. But in fact, avoiding you. But now she sticks to you like glue. It sounds like. Beautiful. That's a great, great story.
Well, thank you so much for Nila for everything that you have shared with us so far today. Our time is about up. But before we wrap up, could you share with everyone how they can find you and find out more about you and the work that you're doing? Yes, I post quite a lot on my Instagram. And it's Swedish. No one understands. But I think you put it in the. We will put it in the show notes. I'm not going to try. I'm not even going to attempt to say that either. Yeah, definitely.
We'll put it in the show notes. Yeah. And I also have a Facebook page and a website. My training, I film a lot and I'm not a professional trainer, but I have some people who connect with me and ask me if I can give them some advice. And I had a really nice feedback the other day with a young girl who trained her a horse that was kicking when she was supposed to lift his leg. And I gave her some advice. And it looked so nice. So I like to help when I can. Thank you so much.
I'm sure that that individual who you gave advice to is very appreciative as well. And we are appreciative also. Thank you for joining me today and for sharing everything that you've shared with us. So from myself, on behalf of everyone listening, on behalf of Animal Training Academy, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for having me. We do, of course, appreciate all of you tuning in as well.
And if you have enjoyed this episode and are interested in carrying on the conversation about working with the animals in our lives in the most positive, most fun, and most choice -rich ways, then as mentioned at the start of this episode, the Animal Training Academy community is waiting for you. Head on over to www.atamember.com and click on the membership button in the main menu to learn more about what members are describing as the Netflix social media platform for behavior geeks.
That's it for this episode, though. Thank you so much for listening. You'll hear from us again soon.