Hello and welcome to the Animal Training Academy Making Ripples podcast show, the show where we share the stories of the ripple-making extraordinaires with behavior nerd superpowers who make up the Animal Training Academy membership. I'm your host and one of the happiness engineers at Animal Training Academy, Shelley Wood from Drop Your Jaws Dog Training in Cape Girardeau, Missouri in the United States. We're absolutely thrilled and grateful to have you here with us today.
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Christy grew up in western Pennsylvania and attended Kent State University in Ohio, where she received a BA in anthropology. After graduating, she started her professional journey working with animals in the zoo field, caring for and training a number of different species. This type of training focused on animal husbandry and cooperative care.
In 2008, Christy transitioned to working in the veterinary field and at the same time received a diploma in canine behavior from the Companion Animal Science Institute. In 2010, she returned to school to become a licensed veterinary technician. As a technician, she worked at the National Aviary in Pittsburgh, as well as veterinary specialty clinics in New York and South Carolina.
In 2019, she created and ran the behavior department at the Charleston Veterinary Referral Center and eventually transitioned to her own business, working full time as a behavior specialist a couple of years later. Christy recently moved to Richmond, Virginia, where she works for a veterinary behaviorist at the Richmond Animal Behavior Wellness Center as a technician and behavior trainer.
An interesting new addition to her role at the center is running the DIGA Therm thermal scanner that helps assess pain in behavior patients. Welcome, Christy. I'm so excited to have you with us today. Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Excited to have you here and get talking about all things behavior related. But before we do that, did I pronounce that right? DIGA Therm? It's a DigiTherm, like think digital, like a digital thermometer. So it's a DigiTherm.
Gotcha. That makes a lot more sense. A DigiTherm thermal scanner. Well, hopefully we'll get to talk a little bit more about that a little bit later. But could you start us off by sharing a little bit about your story with us, telling us how you started working with animals and some of the things that you spend your days doing today? Sure. I've always loved animals. I'm sure that's the beginning to a lot of people's stories in this business. So I always loved animals.
But interestingly, I originally went to school for fashion design, but quickly realized that was not for me and ended up working mostly with a primatologist at the school I was at and got a degree in anthropology and then went on to start working in the zoo field. I did a bunch of internships around the country and then got my first zoo job at the Riverbank Zoo in South Carolina as a bird keeper and then eventually moved on to the Oakland Zoo in California and a bunch of other zoos afterwards.
So my journey working with animals started in the zoo field. And from there, I don't know how many years, maybe 12 years or so after I decided I wanted to learn something new and went back to school, got my vet tech license. And at the same time, I was kind of juggling doing James O'Hare's program at the Companion Animal Science Institute on canine behavior. So I kind of was doing those at the same time.
And then after that, worked at the aviary, like we said, as a technician, I was working with birds there. And moved on to some stuff. I move a lot, if you haven't been able to tell. I move frequently. So moved around to some different places, worked in specialty clinics in the veterinary field. And so specialty clinics are if you're referred from your primary vet to a specialty center. So oncology, internal medicine, cardiology, ophthalmology, things like that. So it's a specialized field.
So I did that for a while. And in the background, I always was kind of still doing behavior stuff on the side. I had my little side business going. And the vets I worked for would refer clients to me. And then, yeah, I was able to finally pitch an idea and convince the one specialty clinic I worked for to open a behavior department of one. So I was the behavior department. And I ran that for a few years. And that was really successful. And then jumped off to do my own stuff.
And then again, got the itch as far as, oh, I'd like to learn something new. And always thought my next step would be working for a veterinary behaviorist. And so that's real recent, as of three months ago. And I work for Dr. Amy Learn at the Richmond Animal Behavior Wellness Center, who I love. And I love the clinic. And I love her. And I love everybody that works here. So it's been a real it's been super exciting coming here. And every day just working here, I learned something new.
So I'm having a blast. That's awesome. You have a really interesting background. And I did pick up on that in your bio. And then you said just now that you move a lot. I have been listening to you as well. And I also noticed that in addition to moving a lot, while your work seems like it's had a consistent a couple consistent themes with animals and with behavior, it seems like you also kind of change hats pretty frequently too.
Or you're somebody I think who might be interested or driven by reinforced by perhaps learning a lot. It seems like you're always looking for something a little bit new to do and learning more. Is that accurate? Would you say? Yeah, that's, that's really true. I love learning. And I'm always looking for a new class to take something new to learn. So yeah, that's definitely for sure. When I was working in the zoo, I started out as a keeper. And then I moved into being a supervisor.
Then I moved into being an assistant curator, then eventually a curator. So yeah, I'm always looking for new information and to learn, learn something new. Yep. I'm good at going down rabbit holes when I went when something occurs, and I don't know it, I'm immediately like, let's look it up. Let's learn about it. Let's look it up. So yeah, that's, that's my personality for sure. Well, I want to hopefully not take us down too much of a rabbit hole.
But I kind of want to take a little bit of a what might be a little bit of a detour. I'm not sure. But as you were talking about your early start, I think even back when you were in school, you talked about working with a primatologist when you were getting your anthropology degree. Is that right? That's correct. Yeah, she that was her specialty was non human primates.
And so when I decided, you know, I was watching a documentary on TV years and years ago, this is in the 90s, about the Omaha, the Henry Dorley zoo. And it was a behind the scenes of what keepers did. And I was like, had this big light bulb moment. And I was like, that's what I want to do immediately changed my major, which of course, my parents weren't thrilled about, but immediately knew what I wanted to do. And so she and I'd already I'd always loved the anthropology courses there.
So I can't that's why I went down that road in that field. And she was there. So it was kind of cool. I was like, I was able to do a lot of independent studies with her that specifically focused on primates and doing field observations. And that was that was a big part of learning how to measure behavior by doing field observations. And then enrichment, that was another thing. One of my independent studies was on enrichment for non human primates in the zoological setting.
So that kind of set the tone for me moving forward into the zoo field. Originally, I thought I was going to work with primates a lot. And I ended up working with primates, but birds actually unexpectedly became my specialty in the zoo field. So yeah, that was kind of that's kind of how that all came together. Well, that's a great way to get started in the in the field. I think I've always thought that anthropology is such an interesting field to study.
We had a particularly excellent department at Kent State University, they had some big names there. So it was a really great experience. I loved it. Yeah, it was good. And did you say you got to participate in a lot of observational studies? Yeah, we would use the techniques that we learned. There was an action actually nearby, there was a group of herons that nested every seasonally, they they nest in groups.
And we applied what we were learning as far as doing observations in the field, we would go out and do those studies on this group of herons. So we would apply those techniques to watching them. And then later, I eventually, I was a volunteer at the Cleveland Zoo. And they were just opening their wolf exhibit at the time.
And I was able to apply some of that research that we had done at school into knowing how to do observational studies on the wolves and how they utilize the space that they were recently introduced to. Very cool. And then when you were working in the zoos, you said that you started out, I think, as a keeper, and then ended up being a curator, is that right? Yeah. And what kind of what all does that work entail?
Being a curator is it's kind of like, and I think it gets the name probably, I don't know, just in the art world, or curator just means you, you are in charge of this collection. So all the aspects of caring for the collection, and it probably depends on the size of the zoo, but I was at a small zoo. So this entailed the oversight of, you know, what were the animals eating? What was the enrichment they were getting?
What were their training plans, the staff that was hired, the budget, things like that. So everything that related to the function of that department was kind of like, I was wearing many, many hats doing that. When you were working in the zoo, was there a role that you had that you look back on as one of your favorite roles, whether it was a keeper, working in behavior, being a curator? You know, I liked everything that I did. I loved it. I loved working in that field.
I loved establishing the relationships with the animals, especially if you were, you know, it depended on where you worked, what kind of zoo you were working at. Sometimes you would be in charge of a specific area, and that was your area, or you might be a floater who floated around and kind of plugged the holes while people were on their days off or taking vacation, you kind of would stand in for them. So I love that. I loved establishing relationships when I was the main keeper for an area.
And knowing that if there was a problem that I was often the one that the animals relied on to be able to solve that problem, and that sometimes could mean making them feel more comfortable in certain situations with my presence being there. So I love that.
But I also loved working with the staff and being in charge of the staff and just forming relationships with them and empowering them to do things and encouraging them and seeing, you know, when they had ideas about things, being supportive of that, giving them my two cents about what I thought, but being supportive as, you know, kind of as a mentor. So I love that too. So yeah, I loved all aspects of working in that field.
And I think that when we spoke before, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that you started your work in zoos in the 90s. Is that right? Yeah, that's true. I was doing internships in 96. And then I think 97 was when I first started my zoo as a full time employee. So yeah, that was a really exciting, exciting time in the zoo field in general. Yeah. Was there, there was a lot of change going on in the zoo field at that time, or?
Yeah, definitely felt like you were kind of riding this wave of, there was new things happening. There was a lot of excitement about enrichment and there was a lot of excitement about training. Like you could tell that there was all this momentum building behind these things. And then it kind of exploded after that. When I first started, you know, there, you know, enrichment was a nice thing that hopefully you could do.
And a lot of the newer keepers were really good about making sure that it was done. But nowadays you have a person at the zoo who's the enrichment coordinator and they're making sure enrichment is getting done or, or, you know, training, same thing. Well, it's, it's nice to be able to train these things, but, you know, we may not have the time, but nowadays it's like, yeah, we are taking the time. There is reasons that we're doing this.
And there's often a person at each facility that is in charge of the oversight of that. So when I first started, it kind of seemed like you were just catching that wave that it was just starting to really hit and then kind of just exploded. Now it's everywhere. So yeah, that was, it was a fun time. It's really inspiring to think about that, to think about at one time, things being kind of novel ideas and maybe just happening a little bit here and there.
And then now we just take it for granted in certain settings that enrichment and training is all part of welfare and caretaking for these animals. So really cool to see that kind of positive change and for you to be a part of it.
I'm sure it was really, I feel like it's a similar thing in the veterinary world, because I think people are really, the average person is starting to hear about fear-free, creating fear-free environments in the veterinary field, but we're still, you know, it's not, it's not universal.
It's not everybody, but more and more people every day, I'm hearing owners talk about it or that, you know, more and more hospitals are enrolling people in the program or just understanding I'm going to do a lecture next week at a vet clinic that we're going to talk about low stress handling and, and how you inadvertently condition fear in the veterinary setting. So I feel like it's very similar. It's kind of like it's there, it's percolating.
And then I would imagine within the next 10 to 15 years, it is just going to be, this is the way it's done and that this is the expectation. And so we've kind of raised the bar a bit. So I'm really excited about that because I can feel it. I can feel it happening and generating just like I did back then. So it's cool. That is cool and really exciting to think about for sure. And so then you, let's talk a little bit about your, your journey into the veterinary world.
So you were working at zoos and you were also doing, you had your own behavior business on the side when you were working at zoos or not, did that not come until later? Yeah, that came later. And I think the idea I had there was just when I was working at a clinic, I was starting to see animals come in and I was like, Oh, his behavior problems here. They were very common. Things were coming up and people were asking for advice on things.
And I definitely had the skillset as far as I knew how to change behavior or to train. But I didn't have all the foundations of, you know, how that might specifically relate to dogs or cats. So that's why I was like, you know what, I've got the training kind of skillset and I feel I have that. Let me learn more about behavior. So that was another road where I was like, Oh, let me go down that road and learn about behavior.
And then kind of married those two, like what I knew about training other species and then applying that to training dogs and what that looked like. And then learning about behavior and dogs and now cats. So, yeah. And then deciding that you just wanted to specialize in that entirely. That's what you wanted to do. You wanted to work as a technician and for a veterinary behaviorist and then got to do that. And you said just for three weeks now is all you've been doing? No, no. Three months.
Three months. Still not very long. My goodness. So what are some of the things, tell us about some of the things that you're doing there. Tell us about the DigiTherm scanner that you mentioned earlier and some of the things that you do day in and day out at that vet clinic. So yeah, any given day can be different. Like this morning I had a client. So this is a client that I was in during the initial consultation with the doctors. So I was there for the initial consultation.
Then we're going over history and health history. We've already previous to that, had a phone call with the owner about behavioral things. Then we're doing some medical stuff and health history while here with the doctor. If medications need prescribed, she's doing that at that point. Then coming up with a plan as far as what do we need to do, what skills does this animal need to move forward so that we can help. So today I was doing that.
Then as soon as I got back, we had a cat in the other room that thought that the cat might be painful. So then I get to come in with the DigiTherm scanner. It's pretty much just you're looking at, it's almost like an iPad. It's got a big camera mounted to it. It takes a thermal screenshot of the animal. So you kind of standardize it. So you're getting specific views. So you're always looking at same views. It's kind of cool.
We're doing a lot of stuff with dental now too and sinuses and looking at those, which I'm sure this cat, it will blow up on the screen because it had really bad sinus drainage while I was in it and had difficulty breathing. So I'm sure that'll be interesting to look at. But it's almost like if anybody has seen the movie Predator, and maybe that's dating myself because that was years and years ago, but it gives you this thermal scan.
So you're looking at different variations of color on the screen. Now, if anything is showing up in red, that for the most part, we're saying, well, there's some inflammation there. I'm looking at that and I've got this big red spot and I'm assuming that that could be inflammation and therefore painful. Or you could look at areas that should not have like a blue or purple image on the screen, but they do. And that could indicate that there's some lack of blood flow.
Maybe there's a nerve that's been pinched in some way. So it can kind of give us an idea of, is there pain here, which is a huge part of looking at behavior. You always want to, I think one of the first boxes you need to check is, is there an underlying medical reason for this animal showing this behavior, especially if it's an acute behavior that just kind of came out of nowhere. And pain is certainly one of the things that's underlying that you're always looking at.
Inflammation of any kind, you could certainly look at animals with skin conditions, allergies, chronic GI issues and pain. So any kind of inflammation is like throwing gasoline on a fire when you have a behavior issue. So if you're not feeling well, that certainly will influence choices that you're going to make. So we're using it as a screening tool in that way to assess patients that were suspicious that they might be painful.
I think it's really powerful to hear you say that one of the first boxes we need to check oftentimes when dealing with behavior is looking for, I think, I'm not sure if I'm not, I'm not quoting you directly here, but looking for pain or discomfort. And I think that that idea is something that's beginning to percolate a little bit more in the behavior field right now as well.
And I'm really glad to see that because when there is pain or other discomfort going on and we don't check that box first, not only are we not going to be successful in what we're doing, but that pain and that discomfort is continuing when it could be addressed. So it's really cool to hear you say that's one of the first boxes that we should check. Yeah, for sure.
And so that's why I'm extremely grateful to have the veterinary technician hat that I have or lens when I'm looking at an animal, things probably, probably even the way I look at an animal might be a little bit different because I'm looking for how they're walking and choices that they're making as far as where they're choosing to sit or how they sit or how they get up on something.
So I'm always really paying attention to those things because for sure, yeah, I think you're doing a disservice to the animal if you're not, by not ruling that out, because like you said, you could have the behavior issue that is directly caused by this underlying issue. And no matter what we're throwing at it, it's not going to change if we don't address that underlying medical issue. So yeah, I'm super grateful to have that lens to look through.
Yeah, I could see where that lens would really lean itself to helping you think in that way and to help you identify problems when there might be some. And I also can't help but think that that anthropology lens that you started with and your work in the zoo field that must have really honed your observation skills as well. Yeah, for sure. I definitely think I have that if I had to list, if somebody asked me, what are your top five skill sets, I would probably list observation.
My observation skills probably as number one, and that's probably from working with a number of different species, and especially working with reptiles, amphibians, and birds. Some animals are really good. I would say most animals want to mask when there's a problem because you don't want to become dinner for somebody. So a lot of times they can mask illness pretty well. So you have to be really astute at noticing really, really subtle changes in behavior to stay on top of things.
Like I definitely know for sure with birds, you know, a bird sitting in a different place in the aviary could be a red flag for me that something was off with that animal. And especially looking at reptiles who, you know, it's not an animal that you're feeding twice a day. Some animals might not get, maybe they're being fed once a month, a really large python or something like that. So you have to look at different ways of assessing, is this animal okay? Is this animal comfortable?
Okay, feeling well, those kinds of things. So yeah, I definitely feel that working with a wide variety of different species and learning to look at what's normal, what's not normal and paying attention to subtlety, that was important. That could mean life or death for an animal in those kinds of situations if you're not on top of it. So yeah, I definitely think that has honed my skill set of observing animals in general. Very cool. And the DigiTherm scanner also sounds really cool.
Are those pretty common? Are those used quite a bit? I think we did a little, we went down a rabbit hole the other day at work about the DigiTherm and it looked like that I think the most common use with animals originated with horses, I think, because they were using those for quite some time. And I think in the 80s was the biggest, was the more of a kind of a more common use of them with horses. They use them all over.
We definitely have images that the man who's created the DigiTherm has shared with us from zoos that are using them. But it does sound like every time we talk to him, he's a nice guy, we get on the phone and we share images with him. And then we kind of troubleshoot what's going on with the images and how to interpret better and things like that. So we've talked to him quite frequently recently. And it's like almost every week, it sounds like he's talking to more and more veterinary clinics.
So I do think it's becoming more common. It's not commonplace, but I think it's definitely, it's probably one of those things that's in the ether and will become more prevalent as time goes by. Just because it's so easy to use. Again, it's just like holding up an iPad with this thermal camera on it. And it's non-invasive.
So especially in our clinic, we don't touch the animals at all when we're doing the scans, because we could be dealing with extremely nervous, anxious, fearful, maybe they might use aggression because they're not feeling too happy or they might be scared. So we're not touching anybody when we're doing it. So that's great. So it's different than like taking an x -ray or things like that. But it just gives you more information of where you might want to focus some further diagnostics.
Yeah, very cool. It sounds like a really helpful non-invasive way to get some more information to help tell the story of what's going on with a particular animal. Yeah, it is interesting because you can see it immediately. Like as soon as I make the adjustments that I need to make when I'm, you know, I take the pictures, then I go back and I make all the adjustments to the levels where they need to be. And you'll see it immediately. I'll go over to the vet and say, check this out, look at this.
And so, yeah, I mean, you're getting information right away. So it's really cool. And so you're spending your days there. It sounds like doing some planning, using the DigiTherm scanner, monitoring kind of some general health outcomes and then also or indicators. And then also you are implementing behavior plans. Is that right? Yes. Yeah. So we'll get, you know, the vet comes up with what she wants to be done.
And then as you start working with the person, you'll fine tune and kind of figure out where we really need to focus. Like today I went in, it was the first meeting with these people since their consultation. And so I just wanted to see where are we at since the consultation? Any feedback that I can give the doctor about where we're at with medications, if they're on medications and what's going on there? Are there any side effects? Are there, are we seeing any, are they useful?
And then you have to start working on what's the priority? What do we need to, what do we need to prioritize? I think you have to be really cautious when working with people because they're not trainers. So my, my philosophy is always how do we make this super, super helpful? So we manage a lot of things. We manage what we can. That's, that's one of the things that we're always looking at is how can we manage this to prevent the behavior from occurring?
So that's our, that's one level of behavior modification, the medication certainly. And then actually going in there and doing some behavior modification training. So I always make, try to make that part very simple and not throw too much at a person at one time. And again, assessing how the animal, the first thing I'm doing is coming in and I'm looking at the animal, I'm making all the observations.
I'm looking at them, I'm sure through my technician lens, because I'm assessing how are they moving? Are they moving normally? What kind of choices are they making? How are they what is their reaction to me sharing physical space with them? What does that look like? And I'm constantly changing my behavior based off of their behavior. And then I'll decide what road we're going to go down. What do we need to prioritize here?
So if we start going down that road, what that looks like for the owner and how do I make it super easy for them to implement this? That I think that's the key is it has to be easy. It has to be doable. It has to be able to fit into their lifestyle or it's not going to get done. I think that's a really important point. Keeping things simple and making sure it's something that's going to work in the lifestyle for people as well.
Do you see a lot of the same types of problems or like, do you guys deal with a lot of aggression, a lot of separation anxiety, or is it just kind of everything across the board? Yeah, it's everything. I mean, you certainly see a lot of fear, anxiety, stress, which can certainly in some dogs manifest in using aggression as a strategy. It's just this is a behavioral choice that I've made that's working for me. So I'm going to continue to use it.
So we definitely see all of that separation, separation, distress, fear, anxiety, aggression. Yeah, cats and dogs. So yeah, it runs the gamut. Yeah, it just depends. And what a lot of people see, when I was working for myself, and I'm sure a lot of people who do this for a living, reactivity on leash, that's a huge one. That's a big one. So you're always working. That's another one. That's a real big one that you're working on and helping people with strategies for that.
Because as a person who's had several dogs that are reactive on leash, that's a difficult one for sure. And I'm glad you mentioned cats too. So you are working with both dogs and cats there. Any other species at the clinic where you are now? We're not doing anything outside of dogs and cats now, but I think we've kind of left it open to potentially doing some birds, just because I have experience working with birds and training birds. So I think that's kind of open.
We just got a lot of things on our plate that we're looking to implement. So we're really trying to get out there with our DigiTherm. We just started, we did our first blood draw in the clinic the other day. Now that I'm here, we're able to do that. So that's cool. So we've got all kinds of little things going on that we're just kind of getting started. And yeah, the potential is there to do it. But the majority of cases that we see are dogs.
And then yeah, we don't see as many cats, but the cats, I did the DigiTherm today on a cat. So yeah, we don't see them as much as dogs, but we definitely see them. And before you started with this job, when you had your own business and you were working with people and behavior, were you working with cats then as well? I was, yeah. Very cool.
So could you share with us now about a training-related challenge that you've experienced, whether it was at the current clinic where you are, a clinic before, in the zoo, with one of your own animals? Could you share about a training-related challenge you experienced and how you worked through the challenge and some things you learned in the process? Sure. Yeah. And I'll use this example. This is a good example because I think this really colored how I do things now.
It was a real light bulb moment for me, but I remember we had just moved, we had five zebras at the time and we had moved them from one location in the zoo to another location. So a new barn and the barn there worked differently. We had, and I'm sure if they could go back in time, they wouldn't have done this, but they had the doors running on garage door openers. So they closed quite slowly.
So that was problematic, but the goal that I was assigned, and this is often how things were done back in the day was just, hey, next week we need to have the zebras come into the barn and separate into stalls and vaccinate all of them. Okay, wait a minute. So that in and of itself was a huge challenge and to just have a short amount of time, maybe it was two weeks. I don't know. I can't remember, but I remember coming up with a elaborate plan and sitting down and thinking it through.
Okay, this is what I'll do. This is what I'll do. And then trying to implement it. And of course, I mean, it fell apart instantaneously when you have a herd species, here's a herd animal. Nobody wants to be separate. We're in a new environment, a new location. So it's a new environmental context. So you want to take this herd species and get them to willingly separate from each other with these loud doors that close super slowly. So that's probably not going to happen.
So the big light bulb moment for me there was I had my plan. And as it was falling apart, this one tiny piece of it worked. And it was something really simple. I can't even remember what it was. But I was like, oh, that I can use that I can build off of that.
And so that, that kind of informed me as far as, you know, I don't usually make plans at all, when I'm working with an animal, and I'm seeing him for the first time, because I'm starting to look at how does this animal move in this environment in its home? What choices does it make in the home? How do the people interact with the animal in this home? I'm looking for all of that information. And then I'm going to build the plan there.
And I'm also trying to look at shortcuts to get there more quickly. Because if the animals making certain choices without me doing or asking any things, can I build off of that. So I think that that experience with the zebra is where I was like, oh, this is a disaster. And then just being like, but wait, but wait, that that was something I could use. And then realizing, oh, make this hard right turn. And I can use that. That really has informed me for the rest of my career.
I use it every single day with every animal I work with, just looking at who I'm working with, and building the plan from there. So not having like, you know, I certainly have, you know, it's not necessarily a recipe, but things that you look at, like, in these kinds of situations, these things are helpful, these can be helpful.
And I can use those, like, this animal's nervous, anxious, let me give this animal some choice and control over what's happening, in general, in life, I want to give them some choice and control. So I might add something in like that, but then really looking at that animal and how it receives information, gives information, and then making the plan according to that animal. So that kind of hiccup with the zebras, where I was like, Oh, this is a failure, my plan is just, it's worthless.
And learning, well, wait a minute, you can take some information and find something unexpected, and then and then be able to work with it. So that's definitely the one thing that that that's how I train is just watching the animal and then making decisions based off of what they're doing. And it's like a dance back and forth, they make a decision, I make a decision, I look at how they responded to my decision, and how that changed what they were going to do. And then I respond to that.
So that's, that's kind of the, the, the, that's the foundation of how I work as a trainer. That's a really powerful story. And as you were telling it, and you were saying how you had come up with this elaborate plan, and then it started kind of falling apart, it made me think about what you were saying a minute ago, about working with people, and trying to find the most simple things to give them to do.
And I think that a lot of times, well, I think that a lot of times for me, for sure, early on in my experience training, I wanted to give people like elaborate plans with lots of detail. And the same way they fell apart for you, an experienced behavior person at that time, they fall apart for people who aren't in the behavior field and try to implement them. So it's such a skill to be able to identify those small changes that can be made.
Yeah, I think so for sure, just, just knowing myself, as a, as a person that will always choose management, over training something like, if I could throw up some window clings and change my dog, you know, stop my dog from barking at the person going by, that will probably be my choice, you know, just from being kind of lazy, or that I'm, this is what I do for a living, and I'm doing it every day. And it's like, Oh, I just want to go home and just have everything be peaceful.
You know, I've trained my dogs basic things that I really want them to do, and that things that will keep them safe. And outside of that, I'm just like, just do what you want, just you have your choice, do it. If I don't like your choice, how can I make it easier for you to not make that choice? So I'm always, that's always what I'm doing. Some people may love training and do it and come home and want to train their pets all day long.
But I fall into the category of maybe being lazy and just being like, I'm going to manage it. And then so I figured if that's me, and I had with all the information and knowledge that I have, the average person who has no knowledge, and to be frank, a lot of the information that they might have is, is not good, because they've been going down different Google rabbit holes and, and following some bad advice.
So I want to just make it easy, I'm going to make this easy for you to do this, I'm going to give you one thing to focus on, and then we'll build off of that. And I think if you can give them something easy, and they can see some success with it, then you have a little bit more buy in for the next time that that you're meeting with them, and they feel empowered by it. And then maybe you can increase what you're asking them to do. But you have to be really careful of who am I working with?
It's the same thing, you're assessing the dog, and then you're assessing well, what what environment does the dog find itself in? And part of that is the owner, and how the owner receives information, how they implement things? And are they really understanding? And is it better for them to just manage? And instead of giving them this laundry list of things to do? So I'm always let's make it simple. That's my philosophy, for sure. I love it.
And when you were talking a minute ago, when you were talking earlier about the zebras, you mentioned something about also always just kind of being on the lookout for shortcuts.
And it made me think about how when I first started training, you would often hear people say, or I would often hear people say, anyway, well, that's management, that's not training, you know, as if it was possibly less than or something, you know, but how that really looking for those shortcuts and looking for ways that we can manage behavior effectively can be to give those to give people and the animals who they're living with those easy wins quickly can be just such a helpful
and important skill to develop. So I'm a big antecedent arranger to get there quickly. And I'm sure a lot of that comes from working in the zoo. Because you know, you're working with animals a lot of times that you can't put your hands on or like in a free flight aviary when you got over 100 birds in the aviary, and you're looking for just a few of them to make a certain choice. antecedent arrangement is everything. So that's probably why that's my go to.
And even with my own dogs, my choice will always be, how can I set this up? I'm always looking, can I set this up to make the likelihood that you make this choice greater, and then I'm going to pay you for that choice. So yeah, that's, that's my go to is arrange it. So the behavior occurs, and then I'm going to pay you for it. And then now we've moved on to maybe a trained behavior. But I think arranging the environment to make the likelihood that that choice occurs. Yeah, that's so easy.
It's easy to do. And I think it's powerful, because you can get there much more quickly. And if you know the animal you're working with, and things that that might get them to move in a certain location or a certain way or do whatever it is you want them to do. Yeah, you get there much more quickly if you just set it all up. So it's easy for you to do that.
And then gradually, I just like if you consider it a prompt, if you're using environmental arrangement as a prompt to get something, and then you fade the prompt out rather quickly. That's how I work. Very good. Thank you for all of that. Could you share with us now about a training situation that you're proud of and or one that you have found reinforcing? Yeah, I had a client.
He had two border collies and this one border collie, not sure what happened, but became extremely fearful of going outside. So it was really sad because this kid had traveled with the dogs. They had done lots of agility, lots of hiking. And then, well, you know what he linked it to his best guess was linking it to when the dog went into being neutered. He said, I can almost to the date say this is when this dog changed.
Which is interesting, because I've definitely seen in multiple clients that I've had, like there was some kind of weird event of hospitalization, surgery, trauma at the veterinary clinic. And it could be something as, you know, as routine as the neuter, but from the dog's perspective, perceived perhaps as a trauma. And after that, the dog, for two years, by the time he contacted me had pretty much been living under his bed. And it was awful. When I got there, the dog was under the bed.
And so and he told me, he said, Listen, I've had three or four trainers out here. And nothing's, nothing's helped. And of course, we all like to hear that, because you want to think I'll be the one to solve this. And so he did, he had to lift up the mattress to get the dog out to just in kind of drag the dog outside to go to the bathroom, and then the dog immediately went back under the bed. And so I was like, Okay, so first of all, we can't have the dog under the bed.
It's, it's, it's hard on this owner lifting up this mattress several times a day to get the dog out. So the first thing to me was like, well, I want to eliminate that, obviously, it's a safe space. So I have to replace this safe space with another space. So let's do that first. So we figured out, he was like, well, sometimes he does come out in the day, and he'll spend time in this big crate under my desk. Okay, so that's going to be the space.
And we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna cut off his access to under the bed, because it wasn't safe for the owner to do it that way. Then we just started building value for very small amounts of time, just paying him for spending time outside of the crate, which could be very simple. He was motivated by food, he might come out, nope, you came out of the crate, good, I'm paying you for it.
I think within the first session, he was like, Well, this is all right, I'm gonna Yeah, I'll stay out of the crate. Anytime he got a little nervous, he'd dart back in, but then he quickly come back out. And then slowly, over time, we started implementing things that the dog enjoyed. So I brought his agility equipment into the room where the crate was, and we started doing agility. I think by the second or third time I was there, he was greeting me at the door.
So it was really cool to watch, like, we were able to quickly implement building value for not being in the crate and just making a different choice. So we were paying him for all those choices, getting involved in the things that he liked to do. And then we started using pattern games, the Super Bowls, we just started doing Super Bowls in the house, to build value for moving towards the door, because the door was a big thing. Oh, the door.
So it was great, because we could move towards the door, then we turn around and move away from the door. So gradually, I was able to move them towards the door, the door would be open, one of the bowls gradually was outside of the door. And so gradually, we're down the road with bowls, down the road where we were playing Super Bowls, going down out into the driveway, out into the parking area. And we just kept building value for not spending time in that place, using things that he liked to do.
He loved to play tug, he loved to do his agility stuff, his little sports in the house, we did a little parkour on the furniture, just building value for that. And over time, it gradually, it kind of just started to flip from spending more and more time out of the crate, less time in the crate. So it kind of eventually just flip flopped, where he wasn't, he was no longer in the crate. And then we started working on actually traveling and getting him back out of the house. So it's cool.
His, his owner actually just visited me here in Richmond a few weeks ago. We kept in touch through all of it. And yeah, he was thrilled. So we definitely got the dog back out and having a life again. So it was it was awesome to, to take a dog that's been living under a bed for two years and be like, let's let's start making these little adjustments and see if we can build value for them. And yeah, that was awesome. I love that. That was one of my favorite cases.
What a rewarding thing to be able to do to help the that person and that dog to have such a better quality of life, both of them. For people who don't aren't familiar with it. Super Bowls, I think is one of Leslie McDevitt's pattern games. Is that right? Could you maybe describe how it works for people? Yeah, it's super easy. So I just would take three bowls. And they were maybe they were like, two, three feet apart from each other. I had them lined up.
So I would put a piece of chicken in it, the dog would eat the piece of chicken. And then when he happened to look up and look at me, I moved forward to the next bowl, put the chicken down, ate the chicken. So pretty quickly, he's, he was like, okay, so eat the chicken, look at you more chicken, got it, move forward. When we get to the third bowl. And he got that. He'd eat the chicken look up. I mean, we turn around and go back to the next bowl to the start.
So it was kind of I was using it in a way where we're moving towards the scary thing, which in this case was the door. But once we get that, now we get to move around and go away from it. And so I'm paying you for that, too. So there we are, it's scary, but now we're away from it. And he never seemed really concerned about moving close to the door. Once he figured out the game, we started in another room in another area, gradually moved it towards the door.
Once we were doing that, he knew the game. He was like, Yep, got it game. We're doing it. It just got a moving outside because that was scary for him. I think a lot of his issues was noises outside that were scary to him. But once he realized, I go out and I come right back in, I go out, I come right back in, I'm giving you what you want. We went out now we're going back in.
And that was part of the training to where we kind of go we kind of go at a run and then we turn back around and go right back in. So that was helpful for him to always knowing he had the safe spot to return to. And then over time, he didn't need it as much as he started to feel more comfortable with what was going on. So that's that's very similar to a dog I was working with today who the owners, he is frightened by sounds outside.
And so when they're out in the yard with him, they prop the back door open so he can go back inside, he can retreat if he hears the noise. And what they found over time is he's making that choice less often. It's there, it's always available, but he doesn't need it. We're also desensitizing him to some sounds and building value with treat parties for sounds. But it's just having that choice of being able to return to a safe space. He has it, it's there, it's available. Well, now I don't need it.
So that's interesting to see that. Yep. That is interesting to see and think about how just providing that opportunity to have a space that they can return to and that they can be empowered to make their own decision in that way can impact behavior. Really cool. And I also think sometimes I think about the pattern games and I guess other train any, maybe any trained behavior, I'm not sure, but certainly the pattern game.
Sometimes I think about those as almost like, you know, if you teach your dog, like if you train your dog to something like a mat and then you take that mat somewhere with you, they're like, Oh, I know this is my spot. This smells like me. I know this, I know the drill with this thing. And I kind of think of pattern games in a, in a similar way that there are things that you can kind of pick up and take with you other places. And it's like, Oh, okay.
Even though I'm in this weird place, or even though I'm working on this thing in this, what used to be a scary place. I know the drill. I know the super bowls mean this is how we do this. So yeah, definitely using patterns of any kind predictability and patterns for me. And I'm sure a lot of other people, I know it is that, that it's so helpful for dogs that are anxious and stressed. I just think about people. I always think of when a person goes on a vacation, it's exciting.
You're on the vacation, but things are different. You know, you got to get your food somewhere different and you're sleeping somewhere different and you really quickly establish a pattern. So by the fifth day, you might be going to breakfast at the same spot, or I know people that even go to the same spot to vacation, stay at the same hotel, always visit the same places. They go back to that pattern because it gives you a little bit feeling of safety.
It's predictable, you know, what's going to happen. So I think patterns are so, so powerful for animals in that way. And it's exactly like you said, you're, you're using something that they know, but it's just in a little bit of a different context. So then they're like, Oh, okay. So this is a little more challenging, but, but I know how to do this. So yeah, you're always assessing and trying to make it easy. You don't want to be overwhelming them in a new environment.
You want to do it baby steps, but yeah, I think they're really powerful that they can make the dog be like, yeah, okay. I know what we're doing. And then it makes the scary thing less scary. Very cool. And also with something like Super Bowls too, it has that added benefit of the dog starts the baby or by looking at you. Right. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Very cool. And the, you said the owner just visited you is, does he, is the dog still alive in his life?
Yeah, the two dogs were staying at an Airbnb when we, when he came and met me and we had dinner. So yeah, yeah. It's, he sends me videos of them all the time. So yeah, I've kept in touch with him for years. So that's cool. Wonderful. That's awesome. I'm so glad that those that he and the dog have had a great life in large part, thanks to your help. So I'm super happy with that one. Yeah, for sure.
Well, we are getting ready to wrap up here pretty soon, but before we do, I wanted to give you an opportunity if there is anything that I have not yet asked about that you were wanting to share. I'd love to give you an opportunity to do that. Yeah, I don't know.
I think we covered everything, but yeah, I think the, the biggest things going in is just for anybody who's working in this field is just to start, you know, maybe appreciating some of their nuances and the things, the way that they see things a little bit more. I know people don't always appreciate themselves.
So I think over time I've had, I've just gotten more perspective as I've gotten older on the things that I've done and the things that I'm good at and not being afraid to try different things. And yeah, just, just appreciating who you are moving forward and seeing where you are now and where I am now.
Like, I mean, in this short three months, I've learned I'm a better and different trainer than I was three months ago, just from the experience that I've had working with Dr. Learn and the staff here. So just always, just always taking the opportunity to understand that where you're at now, you know, you can learn and, and, and, you know, wear different hats, different lenses and, and get them to help you moving forward.
So that, that's kind of what I think of just taking all those experiences that you've had and allowing them and let them shape you and how you do things. Because I think the one thing that I noticed here when I came here, because for the most part, I've been working by myself as a trainer when I wasn't at the zoo. So I've been kind of doing it on my own, going to, to lectures and workshops and conferences and learning, but then it's me implementing and doing it myself.
So when I came here, I was just like, oh boy, I don't do it anywhere. I don't do what you do. I don't train the same way, or I don't, I don't do things the same way, but that's okay. But now I'm, you know, I had a little anxiety at first because I'm like, oh, but then it's okay to have your own way of seeing things and your own way of doing things.
You know, if you understand the basic principles of learning, it's okay to, to look at things a little different and allow your own experience to shape the trainer that you are and how you see things. And it may not be the same as somebody else, but, but that's okay. And you can, you can go down different roads for training and learning things.
And I think as long as you're looking at the welfare of the animal and you want the best for the animal and you're making choices, should I be changing this behavior? Is this the right thing to be doing? This behavior is functional for this reason. You're making the right choices. How you get there is your own journey and your own life experiences that shape how you make the choices that you do as a trainer.
So that, that's kind of one of the things I think it's probably present in my mind, just from having moved here and having a little anxiety at first of like, Oh, I don't do it that way. That's not how I do it. But then being like, you know what? That's okay. That's okay. I do it a little differently and that's okay. Cause all of my experiences shape the trainer that I am. Well, I think that is a great insight to wrap things up on.
And I think it's going to be meaningful for a lot of people to hear that certainly is for me. So I'm going to marinate in that for a little while. So thank you for sharing that. And before we do wrap up though, if people would want to reach out to you, get in touch with you, learn more about what you're doing, how could they do that? Oh, they can contact me at the Richmond Animal Behavior Wellness Center. Good gravy. You're putting me on the spot.
Cause I just started and I'm trying to think, is it Richmond at AB Wellness? I can't remember. If you just, if you just Google Richmond Animal Behavior Wellness Center, there's just one email and we all get, you know, it'll be flagged for me if somebody's on there so you could flag me, but I would be happy to talk to anybody, but that's the best way. Richmond Animal Behavior Wellness Center. And we can link to that in the show notes too. That's great. I'm terrible.
I'm still answering the phone and being like, what's our phone number here? Well, Christie, thank you so much from myself on behalf of everybody listening on behalf of the ATA. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to join us and share a little bit about the work that you're doing to make the world a better place for people and animals. Sure. Thank you so much for having me. We do, of course, appreciate all of you tuning in as well.
And if you have enjoyed this episode and are interested in carrying on the conversation about working with the animals in our lives in the most positive, most fun, and most choice -rich ways, then as mentioned at the start of this episode, the Animal Training Academy community is waiting for you. Head on over to www.atamember.com and click on the membership button in the main menu to learn more about what members are describing as the Netflix social media platform for behavior geeks.
That's it for this episode, though. Thank you so much for listening. You'll hear from us again soon.