The Art of Conversation: How to Engage with Your Muslim Neighbors

1, 2, 3. Welcome to the Rap Report with your host Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian Podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to Striving for eternity dot org. Well, welcome to another edition of the RAP Report.

I'm your host, Andrew Rappaport, the executive director of Striving Fraternity and the Christian Podcast community of which this podcast is a proud member. We are here to give you biblical interpretation and applications for the Christian life.

And today I have a guest on James Remnant is someone I heard on Cross Politic and I reached out to a friend of mine, Gabe, and said hey, I want to talk with him because it was such an interesting podcast and I know when I was listening to it I said I have more questions that they didn't ask. So James, welcome to the Rap Report.

Would you mind just giving folks a little bit of an introduction of yourself and if you can, because I heard you describe this on on Cross Politic, explain how, what your ministry is, how you got into this. Yeah, thank you for having me on. My name is James Rayment. I'm the director of the Almighty Initiative. The Almighty Initiative is a Christian ministry dedicated to equipping the church to understand Islam and engage Muslims with truth.

I'm originally from the Middle east of England, place called Northampton. I've been living in Seattle since I was 21 and you know, basically my journey with Islam starts like many others in the west after 9, 11 and I came home from school and my friend's mother was walking out of her house like in tears because at that point only one plane had hit one tower. And those of us in the house, at least I think with many others, believe for 10 minutes or so that it was just some tragic accident.

And then the second plane hit and the world as we knew it changed forever. At that point as an 11 year old boy, Osama Bin Laden's face being plasters every plastered everywhere was actually kind of exciting for me in some capacity if I'm honest with you, because both my grandfathers were in the British Air force during the Second World War and the 90s seemed pretty boring compared to the past.

But, but when I started taking Christianity more seriously when I was 13, I think Islam in my imagination went from a sort of geopolitical enemy to a worldview theological enemy. But my, my approach was still very, very shallow. I didn't really have any Muslim friends. It wasn't until I was 20 that I had to do a college radio show project actually on interviewing people on their views on the end of the world.

So I got an elder from my church, I found some more missionaries, and then I thought it'd be fun to do a Muslim. So I searched all around my British hometown for Muslim. And then I finally saw a Muslim woman working in the T Mobile store. So I said, hey, can I talk to you about your views on the end of the world for a college project? I'll buy you subway. We made friends. Then I moved to America.

Decided to really, everything I knew about Islam at that point had come from other Christians, some, a lot of whom were doing a good job, some were not. And it came from the media. So I decided I should learn about Islam from the sources myself. So I read through the Quran, I listened through Sahih Al Bukhari Sahih Muslim, which are more of the Sunni Islamic source materials, and then just had a conviction.

It was a very academic exercise. So from there I decided to crash the Muslim Student association at the University of Washington. Walked in super awkwardly partway through one of the meetings. Everybody saw me come in. This is in like 2012. And then I got invited back and just kind of kept going to listen, learn, make friends, and then have one on one conversations. All of this came to a head in 2017.

I was saying hi to people off the church one Sunday and I saw a woman leaving who I didn't recognize. And I said, hey, I don't think we've met yet. And she says, well, what? I said, we don't know each other. She says, what? I said, we've never met before. She says, no, this is my first time here. I said, great, what brings you here? She says, I grew up Muslim, decided, and believe that anymore. Tried being nothing that felt empty. Now I'm here to try this. I said, great, where are you from?

She says, saudi Arabia. I said, great, which city? She says, you wouldn't have heard of it. I'm like, try me. She says, okay, it's a small town called Katif. I said, I know where that is. I have a friend from Katif, which means you grew up as a Shia Muslim, right? And she says, how the hell did you know that? I have so many questions. When can we talk? So then that Friday we got coffee and the place she was at is, she liked the vibe of church but didn't quite get it.

So she asked me, as a Christian, do you believe the Bible and the Quran or do you only believe the Bible? And I said, I only believe the Bible. So she said, okay, if. If the Quran's not true, how do you think Jesus escaped from being crucified? I said, he didn't. And I just read her the last three chapters of Matthew, and she says, oh, it does say that he died and rose from the dead, but what actual difference does that make to my life?

So I said, okay, so in the Islamic version of things, Allah loved Jesus so much that he rescued him from the cross. In the Bible's version of things, God loved you so much that he put Jesus on the cross. So if you trust in him, you can know with certainty that you're loved and forgiven. And she said, that makes so much sense to me. I believe that. So then she started coming to church with us regularly.

And in the course of discipling her, we were going to host a party for people who used to be Muslim and now Christian. But she ended up pairing me, pitching an event where Christians and Muslims can meet each other and hang out. So we did that during Ramadan. We had 35 Christians and 35 Muslims come to church for dinner, and we just had good conversations. And basically everything has come from that.

So now we are training churches, we're helping them understand what Islam is as a worldview, who Muslims are as people, and then tangibly helping them meet their Muslim neighbors and have meaningful conversations over the course of a lifetime.

So for some folks who know nothing about Islam, let's just give some background for folks. You mentioned two different sects of Islam, Sunni and Shia. Could you give a quick overview for folks of the differences and what are they and how did you know that she was just from the city, which branch she was, of course. Well, the only way I personally knew about the specific city she was on is because I'd met another guy from that city, like, a year previously.

So I just happened to know that in general, though, the Sunni world, The Sunni Muslims comprise 90% of the Muslim population in the world. Shias are about 10%, and most Shias are in Iran, with a lot in Iraq. And then there's a good number in Lebanon as well. There's small communities of Shia in basically every Muslim country. But the center of that is Iran, both on a population standpoint and on a geopolitical standpoint.

And for folks that are listening when we're recording, this is in the news these days. Iran, you know, everyone thought, oh, Israel's attacks Iran. America attacks Iran. The whole Muslim world's gonna come against them, against the US And Israel, because they're all Muslim. And yeah, they did. That didn't happen. And I, I said I didn't think it would happen. And people were like, afterwards, how did you know it wouldn't happen? I'm like, you gotta understand that.

It's, these are not too, they may be Muslim, but they're, they've been worrying the Iran Iraq war went on for many decades over the views of Islam. Right. It's a very close contender. Whether there's more animosity between Iran and Israel or Iran and the Sunni states around it, the, the wounds run deep and the animosity runs deep as well.

You know, in the same way that I think for us as Christians, we almost have more frustration with professed Christians flying rainbow flag than we would with like an atheist flying a rainbow flag. Right. Because they're supposed to. They profess the same things we profess. Theoretically these differences make people more frustrated. And that's the way it works with the Sunni Shia conflict.

Yes. And the, you know, for folks to understand, you said something there in the beginning that for many it may be the first time they're hearing this. I will say what you could do if, if this is new to you, you can get my book. What do they, I have the chapter on Islam and we talk about that there, that in, in the Quran, the, the idea that Jesus never died on the cross. It was a look alike. It was. So Allah made it look like it was Jesus.

This is really, it's, it's one of those things I bring up often when speaking to Muslims because there is a verse that refers to Allah being the great deceiver. Now when you get the English version, there's some debate whether that's a deceiver or a planner. But the way to avoid that debate over Arabic, especially if you don't speak Arabic fluently and they do you, you know, is the fact that, you know what James mentioned there.

They believe that Allah deceived his own followers into believing that Jesus went to the cross when he really didn't. That's scary. Right? Right. Now I think if you look at the history of this, this idea doesn't really originate from Islam. It probably originates from the Gnostics. So there's a Gnostic text called the Second discourse of the Great Seth, which basically uses very similar wording to the way the Quran describes Jesus being saved from the cross.

So the Quran does not go into a lot of detail as to how that happens. So this is something Muslims have been trying to solve for a long time, but it seems to absorb this from Gnosticism. And for folks to understand Muhammad as he was coming up with this, developing these thoughts hundreds of years after Christ, those he was in contact with were not generally the genuine Christians. He was a merchant, he would travel around, he would talk to Jewish people. He talked to.

I'm going to put Christians in air quotes because many of the Christians he interfaced with were heretics that were thrown out of the Roman Empire. And that's why in the Quran it will argue that we believe in a trinity, a tri. Unity of the Godhead. They would say that that's three gods. But the strange thing is it describes the Trinity as referring to the Father, the Mother and the Son.

And so there is a surah that will, will actually ask Allah is saying to, to Jesus, did I, did I tell, you know, people to worship you and your mother as God? And anyone that knows Christianity knows that's not the Trinity. And, and so that's a good question I, to ask.

I, I don't know, James, what, what you think about this, but I usually will ask when I deal with someone that's Muslim, one of the things I ask is how does the Quran define what Christians call the Trinity and who makes up the Trinity? Because what I usually find is people who are born in America will define Trinity in the proper way. And if they're born in a Middle Eastern country where they haven't really interacted with Christianity, they say what the Quran teaches.

Yeah, a lot of Muslims grow up basically believing that Christians believe in father, mother, son, basically because that is very similar to the Arabic polytheism Muhammad himself was dealing with. And now some Muslims will make the argument that, well, it doesn't literally think the Trinity is this. It's making a hyperbolic argument against the sort of Catholic veneration of Mary that existed at the time.

But, but really even the sort of Catholic veneration of Mary really is a later development in Roman Catholicism as well. So, so I think the safest thing for Muslims to sort of shelter behind when it comes to this is how little information we have about what Arabia is really like before Islam. Because it's, there is some writing, but it kind of comes in fragmentary pieces. So they can certainly make the argument that there are Christian sects we don't know about, that the, the Quran is refuting.

And if that's the case, then they're not refuting us here and now. And then the Quran doesn't apply to that. Correct. So, so that's their best kind of argument really. Yeah, they do have a group that they will argue, oh, they believed Mary was God. But the. The point to make in that is. But that's not Christianity. They even admit it was a very small subset of people that were thrown out of the empire for heresy.

So even if they were the ones he's speaking to, he's referring to the people of the book, the Christians. And it's like, well, there's a problem there. Right. And it's also speculative as well, because there's nothing in the early Islamic sources that would point to this being a heretical sect of Christianity that no longer exists. Like, there's no differentiations made in the Islamic sources. Doesn't mean it's completely impossible, but it seems pretty unlikely to me. Correct.

And. And the only sources I've. I have ever seen for this sect of Christianity are from Muslim sources. And so I have not been able to find anything outside of Islam to support that. Now, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist because we've lost a lot of documents from antiquity, but it is kind of suspect that the only sources are from Muslim sources to defend this argument that Christians make against them. So, James, for folks who you. We probably. Because this podcast goes around the world.

And so with that in mind, there's probably many who really don't have a good handle on.

On Islam. Maybe they've like, like you said, 9 11, there were a lot of people that had questions. In fact, the way that my book what Do They Believe? Started was because of 9 11. After 9 11, the pastor of the church I was at, he actually asked me, would I study the Quran so that I could teach the church what Muslims believe. And so what I did was I. So I come from a Jewish background. I remember a rabbi that tried converting me back to Judaism, and he gave me tapes from this rabbi, Tovia Singer.

And Tovia Singer would mix Roman Catholicism and Mormonism and describe that as Christianity. I've. I've always said, not always, but for decades I have said that I will debate Tovia Singer anywhere, anytime, without preparation. He actually heard me say that and contacted me, was ready to take me up on it, until I think he. He sent someone. One of his followers called me up and was like, oh, I. I used to be a pastor. Like, I got to help you with your debate with Tovia.

The guy didn even hear my full debate argument. But I guess it was enough. I found out later he actually converted to Judaism and follows Tovia. So after that, Tovia has ghosted me. Tovia even created a banner like debate you know, former Christian or former Jewish Christian pastor versus Tovia singer, you know, and, and then he ghosted me. And so I, I emailed him and said, hey, because he moved to Israel. I was like, hey, I'm going to be in Israel.

You want to do a debate when we're there together? Never responded. And so, but one of the things he did was he misrepresented Christianity and he does that to people who don't know Christianity. So when I started to study Islam, I only wanted to study from the Quran. I did not want to look at hadiths because that's where there's some differences in as we are talking with the different groups and sects of, of Islam. And so I wanted to be fair to what they believe.

And I ended up doing that with Islam. And then because I was Jewish, I was asked, hey, can you, can you cover Judaism? Well, the Talmud is a, takes a long time to read through and study. So it took me longer, but you know, I ended up going through all these different religions. But for many people after 9, 11, all they knew of Islam is, well, when you die, you get 70 virgins. I mean that, that was it.

It was like you die in a jihad, in a holy war, and, and you get 70 virgins when in the afterlife. And so for many, that's the extent that they have an understanding of Islam. Could you give, provide for folks just like a quick thumbnail version of what is it that Islam believes? How does someone become a Muslim? Do they have to convert to it? What does that conversion look like? So how does someone become a Muslim? What is the main premise that Islam would teach?

Especially that which would be different than Christianity.

Okay, so basically the central premise of Islam is that there is one God and absolutely one God who has created the world. But differing from Christianity, the world was not created perfect. Adam and Eve were created in paradise and then sent down to earth when they sinned. And this is called the Dunya. And instead of believing in original sin, all of us are tainted with a sin nature from the time we're born.

Muhammad actually taught in sahih al Bakari that everyone is born pure in a state of what the Muslims call fitra, or nature. And then it's external forces that corrupt you from that. So when somebody becomes a Muslim, Muslims say that reverting to Islam and that instead of converting because they believe everyone's born Muslim. So if you're born into a Muslim family, the Shahada, that confession that this one God and Muhammad is messenger will be whispered into Your ear as you're born.

If you're an adult who becomes Muslim, then you have to say the Shahada three times in Arabic and that's how you become Muslim. So the idea is if you're sort of born pure and this world is a test, then the idea is to do as many good deeds as you possibly can and do more good than bad in this world. And on the day of judgment, your good deeds are weighed against your bad deeds in the scale. And if your good deeds are heavier, that means paradise. If your bad deeds are heavier, that means hell.

At least temporarily if you're Muslim. But it's not just about good deeds. It is also about believing and finding the true religion of Islam. So the Quran says if anyone seeks a path other than Islam, it will never be accepted from them. Even though you'll find lots of Muslims that do believe that people from other religions go to heaven. Historic Islam does not teach and believe that.

So, so, so, so how we get here and what constitutes good deeds and bad deeds comes from both the Quran and the Sunnah or the Hadith. Right. And so the idea is that they affirm that God has spoken through Adam, through Noah, Abraham, Moses, through David. And they also believe Jesus is a prophet and that Muhammad is the final prophet and the seal of the prophets. So the idea is the prophets like a letter God has written to mankind.

And then Muhammad is like that wax seal that stops anything else coming. So they believe the religion is perfect, it's for all people in all time and that in order to be made right with God, you must become Muslim and then strive after good deeds. And they believe salvation is a combination between, between God's grace and mercy and good deeds. It's not, it's not works alone. A lot of people think it's about faith versus works. It's not, it's a faith works combination.

And then they believe they'll people who, who serve Allah correctly and pass the test will spend eternity with law. Yeah. Much like Roman Catholicism, it's faith plus works. And I think the reason you have all these different religions that have to the majority of it is works. Right. That's the ultimate thing. But because man made religions are going to add human effort to getting right with God. But if they don't add the faith, well then you could believe anything. Right? Right.

So every one of these man made religions that are used to control people will always have an element of faith because it's got to be. You believe in their true faith. They're the, they're the only true religion. And your works kind of keep you there. And so. Right, right. It's an important thing for people to recognize. This is how you recognize the true religion from false, by the way, folks, is every man made religion has human effort added to it in one way or another.

And what the Bible teaches is Christ did all the work. We can't add anything to it. In fact, if we. If we try to add anything to what Christ did, it diminishes what he, God Almighty, who became a man dying on a cross, it diminishes what he did when he paid the fine that we owe, which is eternity and lake of fire. Well, he, being an eternal being, can. Can do that once in time. It would take us forever.

And so that's how you know a difference between the divine religion, Christianity, and all the others. They add human, human works. And I would say that for any Muslims listening, that Muslim cultures do have an innate understanding of this to some extent. Because I was in Saudi Arabia about a month ago, and when I went to riyadh, I spent $7 for my entire time in that city because of the hospitality. Like hospitality is a really, really important part of their culture for a couple of reasons.

One is because they do genuinely love their guests, but also, even if they don't, there's a large sort of sense of honor by providing everything for somebody. And if somebody is paying for their own meal, that is dishonoring the host. Right. So in the same way, God is honoring himself by refusing to let anyone else bring anything for salvation. We simply accept it as a guest. Then. For this is an important thing that you bring up, because for folks here who may.

I'm hoping, James, that you are going to influence some folks that do that. End up saying by the end of this episode, hey, I want to reach out to Muslims in my area. One of the things to realize is they have a very large understanding of hospitality. It's a major part of their culture. And you inviting them over to your house, they're gonna. Usually they're gonna come and they're going to be very respectful. Keep inviting them, right? They're in your house, they're going to be respectful.

You get to talk, but learn what they believe. Never. One thing I always tell people is don't assume what someone believes, because even if they say they're Muslim. Hey, we got. We got a Mayor May, a candidate for mayor in New York City right now, and everyone's saying he's Muslim. He supports lgbt. Most practicing Muslims, which he claims to be, would not agree with his positions. In fact, they might want to throw them off a building. Right, right, right.

Zoharan Mamdani is a product of a very interesting thing that's happened in the American Muslim culture.

So there in some ways has been an alliance of convenience for, for the sort of Muslim community in the left wing community in America, which they have some common goals, so they end up working together. But what's strictly supposed to be a professional relationship got a little intimate. And now you have a generation of people who have a sort of hybrid ideology which has some sort of Islamic sprinkling on, but is largely like left wing in its ideology. And this sort of.

Zoran Mamdani is one of those people. Yeah. And I, and I, I think it's fascinating to see because like this is, he's someone new. I'm going, how do Muslim accept him? You know, he's in that culture, he's promoting himself as a Muslim and yet totally supporting things that Islam would be against. Well, I think what you'll see in the Muslim world, and let's be, let's be clear here, this isn't something that only applies to the Muslim world, but there's a certain sense of tribalism to this as well.

Right. When it's, when it's kind of Muslims versus non Muslims, it tends to be us versus them. So for a lot of Muslims, having somebody who's technically part of the group as the mayor of New York is a big deal for them. They feel like that's a win for the community. But if you put him alone in a Muslim community, they wouldn't like him because he's Shia or because of his, you know, actual views which are completely at odds with historic Islamic orthodoxy.

But because there's such a big deal of sort of group solidarity, it's, it feels like a win for a lot of Muslims in New York. Yeah. And, and this is a thing for, for many to just to realize that I, I don't want people to think of just because this guy's in the news and think this is what Islam believes. He's more of a, I'm trying to think of a good word. I want to say freak. But that, that wouldn't be more of a, an anomaly. I think of, you know, what we, when we say what Muslims would believe.

He, I don't think he would represent what the majority of Muslims would believe or what would be faithful to the Quran. Right. He wouldn't. But he would be much more representative of what a lot of Muslims in America actually do believe than you might think.

And what you saw in the last election, like the presidential election, is you're starting to have a little bit of a sort of cold war between the sort of camps of Muslims who are sort of more historically grounded in Islamic theology and then people who are sort of captivated by the American political scene and how much that's influencing their theology. So it's not. Yeah, he's not. I wouldn't say he's an anomaly. Like, at least not in the time and place we live now.

There's more and more people who are like this, but he certainly doesn't represent historic Islam. Yeah. And. And when. When I. You. You're more up to date with American Islam than I am, because my study of Islam comes from studying the Quran, studying hadiths, talking to. To Muslims. But most. Most of it is from their sources. That's where. Where I, you know, I. I'm always looking to go. And so, you know, one of the things that I would like to. To dig into is. So we gave an overview of Islam.

I want to dig into your ministry, what you do, how do you train churches? Because this is, I think, an important thing for you in the audience listening that I want to encourage you with. I want my. My hope in this episode is either that someone reaches out to James, and we're going to give you a way to do that. And if you go, hey, wait, I don't know how to spell that word that he used for the initiative. He's going to give you a easier website in a moment.

But my hope is that one of you listening is gonna feel burdened to reach the Muslims in your neighborhood.

And so when we come back from this break, what I'd like to be able to do is I want James to explain a little bit of ways that either his ministry can help you or how what you could do to be able to reach Muslims in your neighborhood. Because this is really the thing, folks. Many people complain when we have Muslim immigrants moving in. And I did an episode many, many years ago when I first started this podcast.

I think it was like episode one or two way back when, where I made a case for people who are upset with so many Muslim immigrants that were coming to America. And I made the case in that episode to say we should be evangelizing them, not getting upset with them. I mean, God is bringing them here. You know how I know that? Because they're here. That's how I know God is bringing them here. That's God's will, because it happened.

And so instead of complaining because we have a favoritism of our country, America, we should be looking at and saying, you know, they, they come to America, they stay within their own community. What can we do to. Since they're here to help them hear about Christianity, which they would never hear elsewhere. So we're going to come back to that right after this break. You know, one of the things we're talking about with Islam is the fact that they have a hospitality culture.

And one thing that you could do is, well, invite them over for a good cup of coffee because, well, who doesn't like coffee? Well, okay, the Mormons. But if you make it cold, then it's okay because they just don't have hot coffee. But the reality is is you can invite your Muslim neighbors or friends over. You can come and have a cup of coffee with them.

And if you're going to do that, may I encourage you to get yourself some Squirrelly Joe's coffee because, well, a, they sponsor this show, but more so because it's a great cup of coffee and you're supporting a Christian family as well. You know, folks, one of the things I always find interesting is that when you do speak to Muslims, the way Muslims view other Muslims and the way Christians view other Christians is kind of, well, different.

You see, a Muslim will hire other Muslims and pay them more, and they will. If they're working for another Muslim, they work even harder because they think they're taking care of one of their own. Where you know what Christians do? They go, oh, you're a fellow brother in Christ. You should give me a discount. And then if you're the guy working, it's like, well, I don't have to do good work because he's going to be forgiving.

No, we should actually be more like the Muslims in that way, take care of one another. And this is one way you could take care of a fellow Christian family is by buying Squirrelly Joe's coffee. Joe is a, a fellow believer. You're supporting his family and by, by getting the coffee. And so it is a way not only of getting a great cup of coffee, but supporting a Christian family as well. Way to do that is go to striving for eternity.org coffee. That is striving for eternity.org coffee.

And you from there, you will get a discount on your first order by using the promo code sfe but may I encourage you to always go to striving for eternity.org Coffee when you reorder that way he knows you went there from US and he continues to sponsor us. And I will recommend if your church has coffee because, well, you're Christian, they all do. So get the five pound bags for church and that way you can have your whole church enjoying great coffee.

Now if you're sitting there saying yourself, you know, Andrew, the problem isn't the coffee because I'm, you know, I get so wired up, I, I need to get a good night of sleep, we got a solution for you there as well. You can go to my pillow and use the promo code SFE it stands for striving for Attorney. Get yourself some great pillows, towels, bed, bed sheets. They got so many things out there and you get great discounts with our promo code. And then they continue sponsoring us here.

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With that, let's get back to how you, as those in the audience might be able to reach out to Muslims in your community. Maybe you're too old to go in to the local college and go to the Muslims Student association and you know, break in there and you could just go. If it's a public college and they have open open meetings, maybe that's a way of, of doing it. But for folks, James, that don't know where the Muslims are in their community, how, how could they find Muslims in their community?

What are some ideas that they could do to reach out to the Muslims? And how could your ministry help them to do that? And, and with that, what are some resources that you could think of that would help them to learn about Islam? Yeah. So there's several ways you could kind of go meet Muslims. And it kind of depends on where exactly you live, of course, but on the sort of like larger scale of things, one thing that's a really good avenue to meet Muslims through would be, say, cultural events.

So for example, in Seattle there is a Seattle Arab Festival, there's a Seattle Persian Festival, there's a Seattle Turkish festival. Like, those are great avenues. On a slightly smaller scale, you could look for, say, music shows or stand up comedy events and stuff. So one of the best settings I ever experienced for this was a comedy group in Astoria in like New York, where there was a comedy group called the Muslim Otherhood.

If I was in New York City, I'd be going there every single show to kind of hang out and meet people there. But on a smaller scale, what you should be looking for would be halal restaurants that serve like Middle Eastern food and stuff. You could be looking and looking for kind of coffee places which are open late. So generally Muslims don't like to hang out in bars. But food establishments which are open later than everywhere else tends to have Muslims there. Why?

Because the culture tends to involve staying up really late and talking about things. And if there's any individual Christians or churches interested in this on our YouTube channel, which you can find on our website, which is almeida.org or more simply muslimsandjesus.com There's a whole series called Alma Academy which can train you in this. But we also work directly with churches.

We'll travel, we'll come to you, we'll help you understand Islam as a worldview and we'll help you meet your Muslim neighbors. So the resources go into your website. Some places they could go. What are some things folks could do, you know, in order to, so they invite someone to their house. You know, what would, what would be good approach on what they could do to, you know, have good relations, you know, questions they could ask, ways to start conversations and, and further them along.

So I would say I would focus on being friendly, honest and curious. So essentially, and this is the same with Judaism as well, that you talk to 10 different people, you're going to get 10 different versions of what the religion is. So you do not want to go into a conversation with a script, assuming you know who you're talking to. So what that means is you need to understand who exactly you're talking to first.

So just try and figure out how exactly the person in front of you thinks about the world. Like, okay, so you're, you're Muslim. What does that mean to you? Does that mean you're reading the Quran every day? Does that mean you're doing like the five daily prayers? Or what exactly does it mean to you to be Muslim? And then just sort of like, you know, compare notes.

Like, oh, that's interesting because it's, this is how we approach prayer as Christians and just sort of have those things and just kind of keep asking more and more questions, right? Then ask, oh, you have kids, I have kids. What do you do when your kids are acting this way? So there's also just any kind of life questions of how their theology and their worldview impacts the way they live are really good starting points.

But James, that sounds like that's going to take a lot of time and, and I don't have time. I'm so busy. I mean, I got kids, soccer, and I got you know, the TV shows I got to watch. And I, I mean, what do you, how would you respond to someone that feels that that's a big time commitment? Yeah, it can be a big time commitment, but this doesn't need to be something that's happening all within the course of a week. Think of this as a marathon, not a sprint.

Like you should be at your kids soccer games. Within reason. Yeah. I want you to enjoy the TV shows that you enjoy. I need to watch TV too. It's the like one thing that keeps me grounded and like a regular person able to have regular conversations with regular people. Right. It's. You should still be you. But this is something that God has given us as, as a mission. So think about ways to build margin in your life where these things can happen.

Because ultimately it's good for you and it's good for everyone around you as well. Because this will bring a whole layer of magic and excitement to your life, as it has for me. This, this, this has taken me to Istanbul, it's taking me to Saudi Arabia, it's even taking me to officiate a wedding in Guadalajara. Like, when you start investing in the people around you, you have no idea where these things gonna take you. So I don't want you to feel like this is a chore.

I want you to be having as much fun as I am, because I'm having a blast doing this.

But this is what discipleship is, folks. It's not something you do. Just a lot of people that do evangelism have the idea like, they just go, they go out, they evangelize. They don't do any discipleship. They just sow seeds, leave it out there, go out, preach on the street. And then if someone gets saved, they get saved. There's no follow up. And we're not called to do that. We're actually called to make disciples. Some of those disciples are going to take a lot longer.

And especially if they're coming from another belief system that is ingrained in them that they cannot question. And you want them to question it. You know, James, the, the book that I, that I wrote, what do they believe? It actually started, like I said, as a, as a Bible study. And so because it was, it was started as a Sunday school. And what was interesting was, and I didn't expect this, but there's a missionary who works in the Middle East. He couldn't tell me where he was.

And if you look in the back of my book, it's not actually his real name. I actually, the first printing of the book, we put his real name in. The quote that we had for him is, he can't do that, like, because he keeps them separate. Like, you know, and so he would take this Bible study and he said it was the best evangelism tool he had. Because what he'd do is he'd start on the chapter on Islam.

He would tell people, would you like to just study world religions, the American religions, because they knew he was American. And they'd be like, yeah, it seems like it's, it's not evangelizing, which would be illegal in that country. It's just learning religion. He said he always started on the third chapter, which was Islam. And the reason he did it was because what I tried to do and what I encourage people to do, as you encourage people to do, is to know what someone actually believes.

So the, the book just goes through what the Quran teaches. And so Muslims will say whether, whichever sect they're from, they agree on the same Quran. And so that's why I don't get into Hadith. But he said they would always be like, wow, this is accurate. And so they trusted it. He'd go, okay, hey, you want to understand Judaism?

And especially in the Middle east world, not Middle east of the uk, but the Middle east, they would then be curious of Judaism because there's such a division with them and Judaism. So they had the curiosity. And then he'd, he'd say, well, you know, there's other sects of Christianity. And he'd then go into the chapter on, you know, Roman Catholicism, Joe Witnesses or Mormons, Joe Witnesses. Then he'd get to the last chapter on Christianity.

And one of the things he would do is go, Islam, faith +works Judaism, faith+works Catholicism, faith+works Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, faith+works Christianity, faith alone. And he said by that time they have spent several months together going through the different passages in the Quran, in the Bible, in, in Talmud, whichever, to, to study it. And it, it was time consuming.

But he ended up saying that it was really helpful because he started with them seeing that it wasn't a misrepresentation of what they believe. And because of that, they then are curious of the others. And the reason I'm saying that, folks, is because what you're hearing James say, and I, I want to emphasize this, is the fact that we want to be very careful not to misrepresent others. I'll just tell you when. And you probably had this, James, when I had.

I'll give it, give it in A real case scenario, I'm in New York City, I'm doing some open air evangelism with friends. I'm not doing the open air, but someone else was. And he just, I hear him say, well, my friend Andrew over there will be happy to talk to you. Andrew, raise your hand. I have no idea why I'm raising my hand. I raise my hand and a family, a Muslim family comes over to me, okay? Father, the mother, their adult children, the wives, so six of them.

And the father insists, he's a, he was a PhD professor at a university and he, he insists he understands Christianity because he talks to the Christian, the Christians at, at the university. And yet he's telling me we believe in three gods. Now I'm there with a bunch of Christians and I did like, I'm just sitting there, hey, Peter, come here.

Define the Trinity. And they're like, one God, three persons. Okay? Hey Joe, come here. Define the Trinity, you know, and one after another. Now I, I will admit, James, I made one mistake. One thing, it didn't backfire. But afterwards I was like, that was not the wisest thing to do is I went, hey, Aisha, come here. What's the Trinity? And you probably picked up what I, what I did wrong. But right from her name, they probably, they could have picked up, oh, she's Muslim.

She was Muslim and she converted. That could have been really bad. But, but what did I do? I, I basically called out a whole bunch of Christians after six or seven. He's like, I get the point, you know, I said, but he's misrepresenting Christianity to me. Now, James, if someone does that with you, are you going to put faith in what they say about Christianity when they misrepresent it? Right. Absolutely not.

Yeah. And so if we want to accurately understand and communicate Christianity to someone and why we would disagree with Islam, and what James is saying is we need to be fair with what they believe. Don't just run in and say what you heard on the news or from some Christian saying what Muslims believe, because I don't know if you had this experience, James. When I started studying Islam, I discovered that many of the books written by Christians about Islam I couldn't find in the Quran.

I couldn't even find it in some of the hadiths. Right. Well, Islam is kind of notoriously hard to study because even their own scholarly material doesn't do citations very well. So trying to, like, find something that is widely agreed upon, a lot of the scholars just don't do it. Some, some do it, but lots don't. So doing source work in Islam is, is difficult, but it's really, really important.

Yeah. And, and there are, I mean this is why when I, when I didn't, you know, wrote my book, it was, it was hard. It was, you know, it's not, I know Muslims will tell you that the Quran is like the, the most beautiful book ever written, especially if you read it in Arabic and I've heard it sung, I wasn't that impressed. But it is a hard book to read and it, it takes a, some diligence to really kind of get a good handle on.

When I wrote my chapter on Islam, I went to a couple different imams and asked them to proof it to, and I did it with each other, the religions so that I, I wanted to make sure I wasn't misrepresenting them. And, and that's a, I think a good thing and a fair thing to do. But if you're talking to, you got someone in your house, as James said, don't assume that even if you, you read my book on Islam that that's what they believe. Right. They may not.

As, as James said, I mean that was kind of new for me is how far adrift American Islam Muslims are moving from what Islam historically has taught. When we're interacting with Muslims. One thing I'm trying to encourage everyone to do is never to straw man what people believe, but to steel man what people believe instead. So don't simply repeat arguments that make sense to you. Try and understand how people are going to respond to these arguments and account for that as you're making them.

Because my goal is if ever I'm talking about Islam, I want to describe Islam in a way that when a Muslim hears it they say, oh wow, you described that so well. And then that's what I'm going to state my disagreement with it. So how, how do you help churches so individuals can go to your website, get some training from there. But what kind of resources do you have for churches? How can churches get involved with the ministry you're doing so that you can have an impact on different local churches?

So basically our goal as a ministry is not to build a giant pyramid of Muslim ministry under us, but our goal is to help interacting with Muslims become the normal part of DNA for the average American church. Islam is the largest non Christian worldview on the planet. With that considered, Christians are not nearly equipped enough to be able to deal with Islam. So what we do on a kind of basic level is we'll go into a Church.

And we'll provide a kind of a basic training, which is kind of three hours. The first half of that is what is Islam? How does the average Muslim relate to it? And the second half of that is how to meet Muslims, how to have meaningful conversations with Muslims, how to welcome them into the life of the church. And then on our team, we have people from Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan. Our team speaks Arabic, Urdu, Pashto, Dari, Persian, Turkish.

And we are ready to support you in whatever issues come up as you're trying to reach people. And that's going to look like very different things. Maybe it's helping someone figure out how to get a visa. Maybe it's helping someone escape from a refugee camp in Afghanistan. We've. We've kind of done a little bit of everything. And for the most part, you'd be amazed at how well equipped you already are to answer the questions that Muslims are really asking.

And we just want to give you encouragement to do that. Then if you get stuck, we're here for you. So, again, for folks, James, give the website and some of the resources that you provide, because even though they might have heard it, now that they're, I hope, seeing more of a need for them to make this part of their regular Christian life, that they. They would jot this down and reach out to you guys.

So you can find us by the website muslimsandjesus.com on our website, you can find something called Almeida Academy, which is the sort of basic, some of the basic teaching we go through of helping Christians to understand Islam from the perspective of Muslims and how to interact meaningfully. Also from there, you can find our YouTube channel, where we have another series called Ask Almeida, which is a series of sort of short videos answering questions Muslims ask us.

And we also have a couple of podcasts. We have the Almighty Initiative podcast. Boring name, I know. But then we have another one called Christ Caliphate. So the Almighty Initiative podcast is me talking directly to Muslims, because I'm hoping to kind of model the kind of conversations I want to be out there in the world. And then Christ in Caliphate is me and two former Muslims talking about world events and timeless principles that are happening in the Middle East.

Well, James, I want to thank you for coming on. I hope that this was helpful for you, the audience, to learn a little bit more about Islam. And I hope that you have a little bit more of a burden for people who really live in kind of a. A bubble from Christianity. Even here in America, many Muslims, just like many orthodox Jewish people, stick to their own people in the sense where they will not interact sometimes with anyone that isn't Muslim people.

They, they are friends with people they work with. The, A lot of times, even here in America, you might have people, I know it in the, in the Orthodox Jewish community there, there are people who may never really speak to have real meaningful conversations with anyone that is not Orthodox Jewish. And the same with some Muslims. They may work with non Muslims, but they're just talking work. They're not having meaningful conversations because, well, you're not always able to do that on a job site.

So this is something we have to be proactive at as Christians. We don't have to go all around the world to make disciples. The world is coming to the United States. Take advantage of that. So go to muslimsandjesus.com James, I want to thank you for coming on.

Any, any last words you have, anything you want to, to talk about before you sign off? Yeah, I would say in the cultural moment we're in now and the time and place we're in now, it's very easy to kind of get sucked into the politics of things and forget the individuals right in front of you. So you may be somebody right now who is freaked out by the amount of immigration and the amount of Muslims in the US and how much prominence they seem to be getting.

And you can have your political views, you can vote however you think you should vote to your conscience. But what the government's job to do here and what your job to do here is different. Your job is unconditionally to love your neighbors, to speak the truth to your neighbors, and to take the opportunity God has given you to engage people with the truth and love. And I really believe that if this country is going to turn around in a good direction, it's going to come through this.

It's going to come with the people of God, taking the message of God to the people that don't know him. And through that, amazing things could happen. Not just the reclaiming of our own country, but the transformation of the Muslim world as well. So please join the adventure. Trust God, speak the truth and see where he takes you. So folks, with that, I want to encourage you to go, go check this out, learn more and look for ways.

Pray for ways that God can put you in the path where you will meet some Muslims and start trying to reach them. Because you never know what God is going to do through your life on someone who never thought they would speak to a Christian and understand what Christianity is. And maybe like James said with this woman who came to church. Maybe they'll get saved and maybe you'll be discipling them and teaching them what Christianity is all about. Something to think about, something to pursue.

I hope that this has been encouraging to you and you know, this hopefully is something that you will take and pray about. So consider doing that. And with that, that's a wrap. This podcast is part of the Striving for Eternity ministry. For more content or to request a. Speaker or seminar to your church, go to strivingforeternity. Org.