From Pews to Peril: The Dangers of False Conversion

1, 2, 3. Welcome to the Rap Report with your host, Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian Podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeeternity.org welcome to another edition of the Rap Report. I'm your host, Andrew Rapaport, the executive director of Striving Fraternity and the Christian Podcast community, of which this podcast is a proud member.

With over 50 podcasts in the community, I'm sure you'll find something that you will enjoy listening to. Well, you're listening to this one, so there's one. I hope you're enjoying it. And if you are, would you mind sharing it with others? Maybe just text out to five friends. Hey, been listening to this. Check it out.

The episode we have for you today is on False Converts. Now I am traveling and therefore I'm putting some episodes out where I've been on other people's shows. This is a show where I've been on that's called Wrecked to Reformed with my friend Randy. We are discussing the topic of false converts. False converse is a major issue that if you go do any evangelism, they are like a very difficult group of people to evangelize because they think they're saved already.

And so this becomes something where it is a struggle and a lot of people do wonder how to. How to deal with it. What is a false convert? How do you know whether you're a false convert? So I hope that this episode is very helpful. And the next thing you're going to hear is going to be from Rec to Reformed. Go check them out. Follow them with my buddy Randy. That's coming your way right now on the Rap Report. This is Wrecked to Reformed Foreign. Welcome back to Rector Reform Podcast.

I'm your host, Randy Atkins, and if you can't tell if you're listening to audio, we have a guest. He's been on before and he's back. Andrew Rapaport. How are you, brother? You actually had me back. Yes. What were you thinking? I have no idea. It's been a long day and my last brain. No, folks, I mean, what can you do with your host here, you know? Yes. The audacity to. To bring the one and only Andrew Rapaport back on the show and he's not even a post millennialist. And, and, and that's cool.

Well, I'm actually not the only Andrew Rappaport, which is kind of funny because the other Andrew Rappaport is a venture capitalist. And so, yeah, it becomes really funny because people like, we had a woman in my church, she brought a neighbor to church with her, and so I met her and we talked, and she. She gives this. This envelope to her friend to give to me, and she's like, what's this? It's for your pastor. Why? Well, I have it.

I have a new idea for, you know, like, a business, and I want to see what he thought about it. And she's like, why are you giving it to my pastor? He's a venture capitalist. And she's like, yeah, no, I know him, and he doesn't have the money to do that. You know, I. I spoke at a. At a pro life, you know, like a crisis pregnancy center banquet. And so someone had seen that I was going to be there. And so, yeah, they came with a business idea.

As soon as they started pitching it, I'm like, I'm the other Andrew Rappaport, the poor one, you know? Oh, my goodness. I even got invited to dinner with Dennis Kaminich. This is back when I worked at. At what was Bell Laboratories, it became Lucent Technologies. And he emailed his office, emailed me when he was running for president at my Lucent email address. Like it. That should have tipped you off. But he. They emailed me and wanting to.

Dennis Kaminich wanted to take me to dinner to talk about his presidential campaign. And I just responded back, I'm voting for Bush this year. I mean, you know, you should have taken him up on a free dinner. I'm like, yeah, no, yeah. Maybe the gospel with him. That would have been worth it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Me and my wife had a. A good adventure during Christmas. We. Me, for the first time in my entire life, I got on an airplane. And. And I know you fly every other Tuesday. Sometimes.

Do I? Sometimes on Wednesday. Yeah, rarely. But I. I, for the first time, got on an airplane, and we. We had two. We had a connecting flight. So I got on two different airplanes on the way down and then two different airplanes on the way back. And I did not expect to like airplanes as much as I do. They. They're like, is it. Is it just me, or are airplanes just always kind of dusty or kind of grungy or. Or. No. Okay. What airline were you flying? Dirt Cheap R Us. Well, it was. It was Southwest.

No, I'm just kidding. No, it was Delta, but it was the little bitty planes that just. I don't know, they just seemed a little bit kind of dirty. Not the seats or anything. It's just the floor was just kind of, it felt like being in an old time Greyhound bus. Some, some might be. Yeah, yeah. So folks, this is why, this is why we're here to talk about, we're here to talk about, you know, the airflips. Yes. Dirt on planes. And don't worry, I'm sure from.

Look, as a listener, this podcast can only get better. The episode we started off on the ground, we, we can only go better. That's right. They, they should, they should know me by now that I, I have fun on, on podcast. And, and we get into theological weeds and, and we get really serious sometimes.

Which surprisingly so, is going to be this episode as well, because the topic is actually false converts. It's, it's discussing and explaining what is a false convert, what makes a false convert, and then also scriptural sufficiency because there are, there are a lot of people who are in churches all over the place. This is a common, common issue. Small churches, places that they will deny the sufficiency of Scripture.

And it's, it just blows my mind how long a person can be in a church, in a pew and, and still not grasp the gospel or the holiness of God or the sufficiency of Scripture. So I wanted to kind of bring you on to try to tackle that, those issues and see if you can kind of bring some clarity because again, this is, this is very common and Ray Comfort touches on this often. And if you've never listened to Ray Comfort and you're listening to this, go listen to some Ray Comfort because he's fantastic.

Yeah, specifically, he's got a message he has preached that they sell at the Ministry of Living Waters. It is called True and False Conversion. And that would be the one to listen to on this. Now they do have a. Well, I'm gonna, I was gonna say a cd, but who listens to those anymore? But they used to have a double CD set with two sermons by Ray.

One is Hell's Best Kept Secret, which is on the message of the gospel and then True and False Conversion because it was such an issue for people to realize, you know, whether they're genuinely saved. Yeah, I, I remember.

And it's, it's one of those things that I, I dove headfirst into by the grace of God because I wanted to be absolutely sure that I was right before God, that I knew and understood the gospel, that I believed the biblical gospel, that I was justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone who he is, what he accomplished on the cross and that he was raised from the dead. And so I, I was diving into, you know, John MacArthur.

I was, I was diving into solid people, Paul Washer and, and then I found Ray Comfort and, and hell's best kept secret and audacity and you know, all those things. And they really, really kind of clarified a lot of things for me that, that I didn't really understand the working of grace in my heart actually drawing me to really desire to understand those things.

So as far as false converts, what, what has been one of the, the biggest surprises for you, I guess may not be surprises for you, but kind of the things that kind of take you by surprise. Well, we, it shouldn't take us by surprise if we read the, the Gospels. An interesting thing because a lot of people talk about the fact that Jesus spoke about hell more than heaven. That's true, right? Some will point out that he spoke more about money than heaven and hell combined. That's true.

What they don't talk about because, well, people don't want to preach us at their pulpits typically. But Jesus spoke about hypocrisy, people who think they're saved with a self righteousness, but aren't more than heaven, hell and money combined. Most of his parables he's dealing with addressing the Pharisees in their self righteousness who think they're, they're right with God and they're lost. And so, so much of what he talked about was that element.

Even as you go through history, you could see in, in the, you know, it's been called the Dark ages, right? The, the, the period where you had the Roman Catholic Church kind of dominant. And when looking at the church, they struggled because they saw a lot of people since it was kind of required to go to church. You had this Christian nation that was, you know, this is the thing you can't, you can't legislate Christianity.

You can't just say, okay, you're now like the, the government decides you're saved, you're, you're a Christian. And so what you had was so many people that go to church that were unbelievers and those theologians were trying to figure out how to distinguish between the kind of, the genuine church, those who are believers and those who just attend a building claiming to worship God. Right?

So you have believers and unbelievers and theologically they developed an idea of referring to the visible and invisible church, or some would call it the local and universal church. So the visible local church is those people who gather, enter a building for the worship of God that's made up of believers and unbelievers. And then you had the invisible or universal church that is referring to only believers everywhere in the world. And the idea of which church are we talking about?

We talk about those who are gathering locally that might have people that are unconverted sitting in a pew or in a chair. Or are we talking about the invisible church that's actually redeemed people? And it is a thing that we have to recognize. There's, there's entire books written in the New Testament to encourage people in their faith too, specifically the book of James and the book of first John. Both of them are dealing with what, what genuine faith is. Are you genuinely saved?

When you look at the book of James, there's a dozen plus tests that he provides of how to evaluate yourself to see if you have a genuine faith. And, and John does a similar thing where he. Different, different way of approaching it, but he's, he's addressing Gnostics. Gnostics, people who, you know, they, they would, they would claim their, their, they were Christian, but they had a higher knowledge. And therefore they would say that they were more enlightened.

And so in a spiritual pride and arrogance, they would actually deny what would be the biblical teachings, but they would deny it feeling more proud than others because they have a knowledge others don't. And so these are some of the things that it shouldn't surprise us, Right. Because I mean New Testament is filled with warnings. I mean think about this. When you go to church, if your church has a communion service, which it should every Sunday. Okay. If you're having every Sunday.

Good. And so if you have it every Sunday, it becomes a little harder to kind of do this. Right. But it's, but it's important to do.

The purpose of the communion is twofold. One, it is a time of self examination. And then two, you partake together as one body of Christ. Right. So if you're doing it every week, it just, it's not that it can't be done. Well, some just do it out of rote. It's, it loses the meaning. And so we, but part of that is it should be a constant reminder. This is what Christ did for me. Right.

So, so that we realize we, we have a time of examining ourselves and, and looking at our, our actions, our behavior. Looking at what Christ did on the cross as a punishment for that. Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why we do it every week. Me and my co pastor, we talked about that before we instituted it for every Week, but it's that every week that you're examining yourself at the Lord's table, you know, so I, I think it's a good thing. Some people can, you know, mis, misuse it.

Obviously, as you well know, they, they lose that respect for it. But we should never lose respect for what it represents and, and to examine ourselves. But yeah, it is, it is common. Do you all do it every week or every church? We do it monthly. We usually do it the first Sunday of the month. Yeah. I'm not against doing it every week. Right. I, I, I would be more concerned with churches that do it less than once a month. Yeah. Like quarterly or yearly. Quarterly or semi, annually or.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I don't, I'm right there with you. I'd be concerned if, if they did it any less than. Well, some don't do it at all. Yeah, it's true. Well, even if they have a communion, they don't have an element of that self examination. And, and I wouldn't want to judge motives. Right. You don't know why different churches may choose to do what they do. But I wonder sometimes, are some of them doing it where they don't, they just don't want people feeling uncomfortable?

Or if you're asking people to do a self examination that makes them feel uncomfortable, they may leave. Yeah. Now if that is the motive and you know, pastors who may be listening, they know their own heart. But if, if that's the reason, I would just challenge them to say, you know, this is important for us. You don't want to have a church full of unbelievers. Right? Yeah. You'd rather have a church full of believers. Unless of course, you're the pastor and you're an unbeliever.

And then maybe you don't want unbelievers because you don't want people convicting you. Right. And that's another issue. There are plenty of pulpits filled with unregenerate people who for some reason want to preach. Or, yeah, I can go down that raven trail, but it's, it's unfortunate that it's so common. But like you mentioned, when we're unwilling to make people uncomfortable, I mean, where does it end? Do, Are you unwilling to make people uncomfortable with the gospel?

Are you unwilling to make people uncomfortable? What, like what is it? Where, where does it end? Where does that train fall off the tracks? And it's, that's the, the, the offense of the cross. You know, if we're unwilling to offend people with the truth, then we don't care about them at all. We care more about ourselves because then that, that's, that takes away from. Well, they, they don't like me as much as the. So they leave.

What we should be more concerned about, I'm preaching to the choir, is that we're faithful to scripture. Yeah. A quote that I've become well known for is people don't water down the gospel because they care about souls. Right. They water down the gospel because they, they want to be liked. And quite frankly, we have to get over ourselves. Amen. A thousand times. Amen. Amen. That's. Oh, man. Yes, absolutely. And so that, that kind of comes back to probably.

I don't know, maybe you would, you would disagree. But what I think is the root cause of something like that, obviously is, is regeneration is a supernatural work, a sovereign supernatural work of God in the heart through the proclamation of the gospel.

So we always have to be preaching the gospel, but where people, as far as I can figure out, they deny either all of scripture or some of scripture, especially the parts that convict them, or, or they don't particularly like, you know, like the cross or like what Paul says in First Corinthians, Chapter 6 about homosexuals and all that kind of stuff. Maybe it's just the things that they don't like about scripture.

And I know we're, we're both reformed, we're Calvinists, we, we know the sovereignty of God through the proclamation of the gospel is the only thing that saves. And the only reason anybody comes to saving faith is because God draws them to the son. So that removal of the heart of stone, replacing it with a heart of flesh and causing one to be born again and granting them repentance and faith.

So I understand, I obviously understand that aspect, but as far as the humanistic aspect, I think there's a lot that a lot of people deny in scripture. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I think that when we look at this throughout the ages, people will try to say different causes for it. A lot of people in America would blame things like the church growth movement where they just tried to get a lot of, you know, people in the pews. Do dramas, do.

Do what it takes to get people to, you know, if you go further back, you could look at, you know, Billy Graham, Billy Sunday and, and the others who just. Charles Finney, who were looking for ways to manufacture conversions. Let's play this music. Let's play this song over and over. And the idea being that we can manuf salvation. We could put people in A state where they're more likely to say a prayer, raise a hand, walk an aisle. But we see so much of this in. In scripture, in Christ's time.

So it's nothing new to us. Right. People always want to. In the. For the unsaved. They want to corrupt the true gospel because that's. That's the message they don't like. There's a big difference between saying God did everything for our salvation at the cross, and I can add my human works and effort to what God did. Right. I mean, that's literally the difference between life and death. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I was never a fan of Billy Sunday. Just did, you know, Were you.

We. I mean, I didn't know. You didn't look that old too. No, I. I had a friend of mine after I was first converted, and he was a big Billy Sunday fan. And so he would send me sermons from. For Billy Sunday, and I would listen to. I was like, I don't like this at all. This isn't exegesis. This isn't what I've been listening to. This isn't Bible. Give me Bible. Yeah, well, he was influenced by Charles Finney. Finney denied original sin. I mean, some might get upset with this.

I'd have to question whether Charles Finney was actually saved. Obviously, I don't know the man, but just from what he believed, it's. It. He denied some of the, you know, core tenets of the faith. Now, could he be saved? Sure, he could be. But I think that Billy Sunday took the moral teachings of Charles Finney and he continued on that path. But I think he was a little bit more biblical. Right. Then Charles Finney and then Billy Graham started out.

You know, he kind of was known as kind of taking over for Billy Sunday. He was the. The big name, and he started out very well. He just didn't end very well. Yes, And I think a lot of it, again, goes back to what we're talking about. Billy Graham was looking to do big crusades and get people to walk down the aisle to say a prayer. And then he teamed them up with a local church, which all sounds good, but a lot of it was just emotional manufacturing and.

And that's what produces so many false converts.

When people are told they're not told about hell or God's wrath. The fact that if we are, we break God's law and it would have a consequence. The wages of sin is death is what the scripture says. When we look at that, if we ignore that and just give a message of God Has a wonderful plan for your life. Believe in Jesus and everything will get better. Yet there's plenty of people that want their life to get better. So they quote, unquote, try Jesus and things don't get better.

And now they go, you know, that's it, I'm done. I remember when I was much younger, I mean this is over 30 years ago, 35 years ago maybe. So you're forged. Yes, something like that. And our church would go door to door and, and do evangelism. Back then you'd have people that would answer the doors. And I still remember me and the other elder were walking through a neighborhood. There's a guy, it's 10 in the morning on a Saturday morning.

There's a guy sitting out in, on his front porch and we start a conversation with him. It's ten in the morning on a Saturday morning and this guy was completely drunk. Oh my, he's stumbling, you know, but we're sharing with him and the, the, my, the other elder starts talking to him about drunkenness. And the guy gets real upset, goes, goes, you wait right here.

He goes in the house, he, he gets his wallet and he pulls out of his wallet a decision card that he signed and he shoves it in this guy John's face and he says, I'm a Christian. I was told if I ever doubt, I have this to prove it. And we walked. I mean, and John's just telling him that's not salvation, like, look at your life. And we both were just so grieved over what somebody did to that poor man because maybe well intentioned, but that man was no longer looking for salvation.

He thought he had it because he signed a card. Yeah, that's that get out of hell free card. Yeah. And, and that's a horrible thing to, to do to people. Absolutely. You know, I, I refer to the scariest verse in all of the Bible or passage I should say is, is Matthew 7:21-23. I know this doesn't surprise you and probably most in your audience, but Jesus speaking, he says this in Matthew 7:21, 23.

Not everyone who says to me, lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven, will enter. Many will say to me on that day, lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? And I will declare to them I never knew you depart from me, you who practice lawlessness. That is a scary passage because it says there's many People, it doesn't say. The few will say to me.

He says many will come to me. Right. And this is what breaks my heart for Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, I mean, people who are really trying to do works to get themselves right with God as they're doing that, thinking they're going to stand before God and hear, well done, my good and faithful servant. And instead he's going to declare, I never knew you. You practice lawlessness. That's scary.

Yeah, I was actually, I was preaching on that verse just a couple weeks ago because it is so common that it's something that I, I, when I was saved, it was something that I was so focused on by the grace of God because I was a false convert for 28 years. When I was 28, I was saved. But my whole life I thought I was a Christian. I was baptized once, you know, at 9 years old. I didn't know what, what the gospel was. I didn't understand the cross or, or any of it.

So when I was 28, that's when God put me in the hospital for three days. And that is when God the Father started drawing me to God the Son and praise the Lord. I thank him every day that he humbled me and put me in the hospital, that he brought me to the end of myself so that I could see. He grant me, granted me, eyes to see, ears to hear, and hard to understand that I was lost and I needed a Savior because if I died in that position, I would go to hell. Justly so, rightfully so.

And so that's why I always try to mention the fact that you can have all the theology up here, you can study the Bible, but unless you're born again, you will not see heaven. You will only see hell. Yeah. And that verse is one of the verses I, I go over constantly when I preach the gospel to people on the street or at the park or wherever it is. That's one of the verses that I will bring up because this is so common, especially around here. Of course, you've, you've been to Kentucky.

You know how it is. But that's, it's everywhere. It is, and it is because it's, it's part of human nature to want the, the benefits of being a Christian without actually wanting to come to Christ the way that he declares. Right. And so what you see is a lot of people who are draped in the appearance of spirituality but are living a sinful lifestyle. And this is what Jesus constantly addressed with the Pharisees.

And he would say to, he'd say to his followers, do what they say, don't do what they do. Right. Because what they do was a self righteous religion where they claimed, and Jesus confronted them. They, they claim they're following God when they're breaking God's command. He would talk about the, the issue of Corbin, that they would deny what's biblically commanded, take care of your parents by saying, oh no, we, we took our money and we dedicated it to the temple.

So we can't give it to our parents, we can't use it to care for our parents. So we're in stewardship of it until we die and then it all goes to the temple. Well, that was a way of not doing what the Bible commands to do with the caring of your parents. Right. And it also denies the caring of your children because where's your money go when you die? You did this because you didn't want to take care of your parents, but you also don't want to take care of your kids. You don't want to pass it on.

And so it's a selfishness. And Jesus addressed the fact that they ignored a clear God given commandment for this idea of Corbin, which was a man made commandment. So they, they substituted the divine for the human right. We see this throughout. I mean this is what Romans one would talk about when it talks about people who instead of worshiping the Creator, they worship the creatures. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's the Corbin rule was.

I will, you mentioned it, but Jesus said, you therefore nullify the word of God for your traditions, for the traditions of men. Correct. Which also gives us our ultimate authority, which is scripture, the word of God.

And that gets what you mentioned earlier, the sufficiency of scripture. And this is something, I think that's been under attack more so in the last hundred years than maybe previous. Yeah, we used to believe that scripture was an authority. Now some would say it was the, the only authority. This was something challenged long before Martin Luther, you know, with the idea Sola Scriptura.

Martin Luther got that really from studying John or Jan Hus who argued with the Catholic Church saying if you, if you, you have to convince me from scripture alone. And, and John Yan Hus actually got it from John Wycliffe in reading his, like Jan Hus when he was in, in school to get paid, he would, he would copy documents. A scribe, folks, this was before like the Xerox machine and some of you don't even know what that is. But you know we have this. Yeah, you'd make copies of, of A document.

But the way you'd copy a document was to have someone have the document and write it out in a new book. And he was doing that with John Wycliffe's writings, and that influenced him. So you always had people who argued for the authority of Scripture and, And the sufficiency of Scripture. But there are times in history where I think that doctrine has. Of the sufficiency of Scripture has waned over time.

And I think that what we see now is we have a lot of people who are looking for something more than God's Word. They're looking for an experience, right? They're looking. I mean, when you look at the extreme charismatic movement, where you have people looking for the gold dust and the, you know, whatever experiences they're trying to get, they. The. The experience is to make them feel closer to God.

But when they're looking for an experience rather than God's Word, what ends up happening is that they. They're no longer believing that God's Word is enough. They need to hear his voice. They have to feel his nudging. They. They need something more than His Word. And that's a dangerous place to be. Very. I remember early on I. I was reading the Bible and I was like, I want to hear God speak to me. And then I love. I've got so much respect for John MacArthur. I was.

I was listening to a John MacArthur sermon, and I think it was. I think it back. I think it was him. Anyway, somebody said it, but I think it was John MacArthur that he said, if you want to hear God speak, read His Word. If you want to hear him speak out loud, read it out loud. Well, if. If that was John MacArthur, I think he was quoting someone else, and that's Justin Peters, I believe Justin Peter is known for. He's known for that quote. I don't know if he originated it, but I, I believe he.

He may be the source of. Of the original. I think you are correct because now that you mentioned it, I, I remember even his mannerisms because he holding the. Bible and he's like, look, John MacArthur and Justin Peter. I, I could see how you can confuse them. They look a lot alike. They're twins. Yeah, I mean, they're. They're really twins. I mean, they walk the same way. Except for one. Yeah, except for one likes to burn clowns with a flamethrower. Oh, you saw that video?

Yes, I did, and that was awesome. That was a funny video for folks who don't know the, the reference. Justin was speaking at a conference and someone had a flamethrower and they put up a clown and they start recording and he just looks into the camera and for the folks who don't know who Justin is, he's got cerebral palsy. So he's, he's in a, he, he's in a scooter.

And he looks at the camera, goes, you, you've never seen a man, you know, with a flamethrower burning a clown, you know, he's like, well, you have now. And he turns and just like lets it light up. He's got a funny sense of humor. I, I just, I love his reaction to it. He's like, oh Nelly. Yeah, that was the best part. He was like, oh my goodness. But yes, yes, that was Justin Peters for sure. And, and that, that was me early on. And I was like, oh, he's got a good point.

Because when you start going after the experience, you end up in places like Bethel and all these heretical places because you're chasing after experience. And that comes from a lack of knowledge of who God is and how he speaks. That's right.

It, it just seems to me that not holding to the sufficiency of scripture and we're seeing the attack on that today as well with Thomasm and people who are, they're, they're literally attacking the, and I think they're straw manning it, but they're attacking what they call Biblicism. Have you, have you noticed that? Well, the term biblicism or Biblicist is. So I know there's two connotations to it. Well, it's such an overused term. Right, Joe? Witnesses would, would claim they follow the Bible.

You know, this is the problem with labels. Sometimes you use, you use labels when you said that we're both Reformed and Calvinistic. But see, it depends on what you mean by that. It does, right. Technically, historically, Reformed theology is what the, those that came out of the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic Church had a idea, what we call Covenant theology, but the reformers reformed that.

So they kept a lot of the hermeneutic but removed the liturgy, remove the authority of the church and tradition and things like that, and that became Reformed theology. And there's a lot that is overlapping with those. But we have to recognize there's also differences historically. So you like when you say we're, we're reformed. Well, I wouldn't technically be reformed by the historical definition, but I, but you realize how you're using it.

I can, I could agree because you're referring to doctrines of grace. And this is always the problem with labels is they change. And the, the example I give to it is people will, will struggle with the idea that language changes. And I will use the example that fdr, and for those who were in public education, FDR was our president and the only president United States to hold four terms.

You know, just for those, those with a public school education, you might not have learned that you were learning how to be trans. And, you know, yeah, unfortunately. So the. FDR was referred to as a very gay man. And I will ask people, what does that mean? And it is interesting because some people who are younger typically will say, it means he was a homosexual. And after they're older, they go, he was very happy. You see, the word actually meant happy.

But in the last several decades, that word morphed, so much so that many people don't know its original meaning. So this is the thing we have to recognize that words do change. Labels change.

That's why I don't actually take the label Calvinist, because I don't know what someone means by it. What actually when people ask, well, what are you? I go, I'm a reportian. My last name is Rapaport. You have to ask me what I believe. I mean, I wrote a book on what I believe called what Do We Believe? You could go read it. You'll figure out what I believe. But the reality, it's. I think it's a good book, but I might be biased. No. Just because you're the author.

Yeah. Well, the, the thing is, is that we always have to be careful, right. When we use the labels. And so I like to use the. Labels just so I can have people ask me, what do I mean by that? Unfortunately, not enough people do. And I'll give you a label in context of what we're talking about. Christian.

What is a Christian? I, I, as you know, I do a lot of evangelism out on the streets. I will come across many people who say, well, I'm a Christian, okay, and could you tell me what the gospel message is? You know, sometimes I'll use like something I got from Ray Comfort. You know, I got stabbed in the back, I got three minutes to live. Tell me how to get to heaven or how to get right with God.

And what I do is I modify it a bit because I know the answer most often I'm going to hear is believe in Jesus. So I'll say, could you share the gospel with me? Like if I was dying, I got three minutes to live. Could you tell me how to get to heaven. And by the way, I'm Jewish and believe Jesus Christ is Hitler's God. Go. And they just stare at me because the only thing they know how to say is believe in Jesus. And I go, that's Hitler's God. I want nothing to do with him.

Because from a Jewish perspective, Hitler was funded by the Catholic Church. And so he claimed to be a Christian. He claimed to do what he did. He wasn't. No. He had. He created. He wanted his own version of Christianity. But as a Jewish person, we. I wasn't raised to understand that distinction. Right. I was understanding that, you know, Jesus Christ represents the Holocaust, the Crusades, the Inquisitions, where Jewish people were either killed or forced to believe in Jesus or tortured. Right.

So this is the. So you tell me, believe in Jesus, I want nothing to do with him. Right. So many people can't do that. So what that allows me to then do is say, well, how about I share with you what the Gospel is? And I could very quickly do it in three minutes. It's very simple. It's the fact that you and I, we lie, we cheat, we steal, we break God's law.

And because God's infinitely holy, infinitely just, it carries a consequence that will take forever to repay because of the nature of who God is. And therefore, we rightly deserve eternity in a lake of fire because we've broken God's law. Now, as criminals, we can't save ourselves. So we need someone who's been innocent of any crime to be a substitute for us so the payment could be made. God is just. So he can't just let us go. Amen. So there's got to be a payment.

And therefore the only way for that payment to be made is by a being who is eternal. That way he could pay the eternal fine. And someone who is a human that never broke the law, so he could be a substitute. And that's the person of Jesus Christ. And that's why Jesus Christ alone is. Is the only source of our salvation. And to say, well, I'm going to take what Jesus did plus add my human works is to mit. To diminish the work that Jesus did on the cross. Yeah. And therefore the.

What we have to do do is to turn from trusting ourself our good nature that we think we have, or trusting our good works and trust what Jesus alone did on the cross as a payment for sin for us so that we could be set free. And that's the mercy. Now see, the payment was paid at the cross. But when we receive Christ. That is the grace of God being offered to us. Now. That's his mercy. So it's the.

Christianity is the only religion where you can have a God who is both just and merciful, because those two are mutually exclusive. And so every other religion's one or the other. And it's usually mercy, because that's what they want. Right. People say they want justice, but they really don't. No, no, they don't. They. They think they do, but they don't. Yeah, justice. As long as they get to define the standard. Right. Which. That's. That's why I love the. The slate. By what standard?

By what standard? Jeff Durbin, of course. I love Jeff. But, yes, he is both the. The just and the justifier of those who have faith in Christ, which is. I remember the first time I actually understood that. Oh, my goodness, I. I wept because. Right there is actually what the problem was. You didn't have any goodness. You had to recognize that. Absolutely. Amen. Because Isaiah says that even our righteous deeds are as filthy rags. That's a pretty graphic word in the Hebrew, by the way. It is.

And I. I don't know if I've ever explained that on the podcast or not, but it's pretty bad. And that's our righteousness. That's. That's our best deeds are as filthy rags. Okay. I can't say that and leave your listeners hanging if they don't know. So let me in the Hebrew, what our righteous deeds, the things we think are really good, Isaiah describes as a menstrual rag. Yeah. And if you don't know what that is. Okay. Just go ask your mother. Yeah, it's pretty. It's pretty bad. It's pretty bad.

But, yeah, that's good. That's good. And I've explained that from the pulpit before, so it's nothing that I wouldn't say.

But for a person who doesn't believe they're that bad. Right. This is what produces the false converts. Exactly. It's why I laugh when people say, well, I wouldn't go to church. Church are full of hypocrites. And I go, wait a minute, church or the. The. The entrance into church is to say, I am a wicked sinner who breaks God's law. That. That's the first. Like, this is the requirement to becoming a Christian. You admit you're a wicked sinner. So if.

If someone actually sins when they say they're a wicked sinner, that's not a hypocrite. You want the hypocrites the hypocrites are in the malls, at work, in the libraries and the shopping centers where you have people saying they're a good person when they're actually a wicked. Yeah. Or. Or the classic example is the Pharisees. Correct. They. They denied the fact that they were sinners. So they would be the sinless perfectionists of Christ's day. Oh, yeah. Listening to this.

I know you just got upset with that, but yeah, they are. Yeah. They. They told Jesus they were without sin, and he had to say, yeah, that's why I didn't come to you. A physician doesn't go to the healthy, goes to the, the sick. So when they were challenging, why are you with these sinners? He's like, well, as a physician, I go to those in the need. You. You think you're. You think you don't need. You're not sick, so you don't need a doctor.

It's that they're blinded by their, their sin, so they didn't even recognize their need for the doctor. Christ. Yeah. And that's first John 1:8. If we say that we have no sin, the truth is not in us. We're not even saved. Yeah. So that's, that's the sinless perfectionist.

They're lost because that's what they claim. But there was another thing that you mentioned, and, and this is actually what I do often is that I'll ask people, what's the gospel? And then they'll. I've heard almost every kind of explanation. Well, it's, it's. It's the Bible. Oh, okay. Go on. And did you know I had a pastor tell me. Yeah, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't ask people what the gospel is. And I was like, did you ask him what it was?

I, I was, I was so astounded, as taken off guard with that. And I was just like, what? Really? You wouldn't ask people what? The gospels? No. So I asked a pastor. I was doing open air, and this pastor was listening, agreeing with a lot of what I was saying until I asked the pastor, what is the gospel? And she said, no, she wasn't pastor. Then Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Oh, my goodness. Yep. That was a slap on the face that you heard Randy do.

Yeah. That was her response, to which I said, ma' am, you don't know the. Gospel and you're not a pastor because you're old. No. Somewhere that I have video somewhere stored of that exchange. It really was funny because that's when she just pretend like I Okay. I think she pretended like her phone was ringing. Maybe it really was. But, you know, there is an indicator because if you pick your phone up when.

When it's, like, it's ringing, you could see the little thing that says to accept or decline. Yeah. And. And she just pulled her phone out and put it to her ear without ever, like, accepting the call. I have to go. I have to take this call. It's a pastoral call. Yeah. No such thing for a woman. But that's one of the classic movie. I. I don't like this conversation, so I'm gonna get out of here type. Oh, my goodness. That. That is comical in. In both a sad way and a hilarious way, because I've.

I've. I've always. I have. So that was that particular day. I had, like, probably, like, three hours that I was doing Open Air, and there was five different. Like, if I took clips of it, I have five different clips that I could pull from that that are just great teaching. And I've. I've always wanted to do it.

The problem is, I was in New York City, and the person who was doing the video decided to position herself as she was capturing video, right where directly in front of her was the topless girl that we were trying to avoid. So. Oh, my goodness. I've never released the video because I. It's going to take way too much work for me. I don't do enough video editing to know how to blur the topless woman out, like, of everything. Right. Oh, my goodness. New York for you. That is New York for you. I've.

I've been to New York. I've never been to New York City. I hear it smells of urine. It depends where. I mean, but it's not as bad as San Francisco, where I. I was. I was preaching at a church in San Francisco and. Or in the San Francisco area. And my bride and I were gonna go spend a day or two in San Francisco and see the city. And the pastor says, well, you have to download the poop app. And I went to. What? I'm like.

He goes, oh, it's the app for you to know where the human remains are left on the street, and you can. That they come and clean it up. I'm like, oh, you're kidding. There's not really an app. Not only is there really an app, like, we are walking and someone goes, oh, I got to report that one. And I'm like, so, yeah, just a warning if you're gonna go visit San Francisco. Oh, my goodness, that is terrible. But Hilarious. But here's the irony of that.

To draw it back in a. In an analogy to what we're talking about. San Francisco is where, you know, most known, right. For the. The lgbt. And this. It's supposed to be this enlightened group of people, and yet what do they have around their city in their. Their care for the poor? Yeah, they got human feces everywhere. So, yeah, that's. This is what the false converts are.

They. They try to look like they're enlightened and they have the truth of God's word, and yet the reality is they stink like human feces, but they just don't smell it because they're just used to it because it's all around them. Right. That's like the. The fish that doesn't know how wet it is is the sinner who doesn't know how sinful they are. Correct. Yeah. And it's a thing where it's deceiving. Pride is a terribly deceiving thing, because pride will tell you you're right when you're wrong.

And if people try to tell you you're wrong, what pride does is tell you they're wrong for telling you you're wrong. And it doesn't matter how many people point out that you're wrong, pride will always say you're right. And that pride is deceptive, and it blinds. And that's why people, when they're given a gospel message of, repeat after me and say this prayer now. You're saved. Here, sign this car. Put it in your wallet. If you ever doubt your salvation, you just pull this out.

What that does is produce people that are blind and no longer looking. Yeah. It's their get out of hell free card. Yeah. And. And that's actually one of the reasons. I'm sure you're familiar with it. Heaven's gates and hell's flames. I am not. Okay. So I was asked to be part in that and actually play the part of Jesus, and I didn't want any part of that because I knew how much of a sinner I was.

But at least relatively speaking, even as Christians, we don't see our sin as clearly as God does, but I was asked to play the part of Jesus, and I was like, I don't know what this is. Let me go look it up and research it, and then I'll get it back to you. He's like, okay. Oh, my goodness. There is no gospel. It is emotional manipulation and scare tactics, but no gospel. And this is a quote unquote, outreach that saves souls no, it's not.

It produces false converts who don't understand the gospel and they just don't want to go to hell. And they've been emotionally manipulated so much that they make a quote unquote decision. It's the old heresy of decisional regeneration. Yeah, well, and, and again, this is where I understand the thinking behind this to an extent where people want to, they want people to, to go to heaven. Right. They want to feel that people are going to get saved, have a better life.

And, and yet the reality is you're actually doing a disservice. Yep. You know, you, you're, you're leading people into hell thinking they're going to heaven. And Matthew, you're giving them that Matthew 7:21-23 experience. I wouldn't want that for anybody. No, not at all. And that's, that's why I appreciate your time. I wanted you to come on and kind of help clarify this for people. It is deadly, deadly serious to, to know that you understand the gospel.

Actually understand the gospel and believe it. Yeah. Because if you don't, you'll be one of those people that goes up to Jesus. And I've, I've said this many times before. That's one of the scariest verses, if not the scariest verse in the Bible. It terrified me when I was first saved because I didn't want to be that person. I, I had to know that I was right with God. And I, I had to know, okay, what, what is the evidence of a truly saved person? What, what does it mean to believe in Christ?

What does, what does the gospel mean?

What is the gospel? And so that's why I spent so much time studying it. And then once I truly understood it and understood that by the sheer grace of God, he saved a wretched sinner like me. Because I, I know to some degree how sinful and wretched I am. And that God would show mercy on the worst of us is absolutely amazing. It's. Why Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. It's, it's one of my favorite hymns of all time. And then close to that is. Is it as well.

Because I was astonished that God would stoop so low and save someone like me. And so I didn't want to be the false convert who shows up the moment I die or on Judgment Day and go to Jesus, Lord, Lord. And then you hear those very terrifying words because once he doesn't have to say the whole sentence. The moment that he says D, it's Like there's no hope, none forever. And so I didn't. I did not want to be that person, and I don't want that for anybody else. So I have to preach the gospel.

And that's why we ask people what is the gospel, so that we can correct them if they're wrong. You know, an interesting thing is I. We used to go out when the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints used to have their Mormon miracle pageants. I kind of think they stopped them because they had several of them. And if you look at the Mormon population in Utah, where they had these pageants over the years, those areas became the least Mormon in.

In all of Utah, I think all the evangelism that would go on at the pageants, but here they're doing a pageant where they were going to have this reenactment of the. The Book of Mormon. And they're going to talk about Joseph Smith, how all the war religions got it wrong. And they get to a point where they. Where they have him saying how. You know, basically religion, you know, the. The. These false religions that say you can't work your way to heaven, you know, and.

And yet before they start the pageant, they sing Amazing Grace. And it's just. It boggles my mind. Like they don't even understand what that grace is. Right. They sing the words. And this is what a false convert would do. They would sing the words. They would. They would do all the things that they expect a Christian to do, but there's nothing inside. And this is a lot of what the book of James is. Is covering those who profess a religion that they do not possess. They're.

They profess to know Christ, but they don't actually know him. Yeah. And. And James. James was one of the books that at first, every time I read it, like the first year that I was saved, every time I read feels like a sledgehammer is. Is just pounding the dirt out of you every time you read it. That in Hebrews. And I was, you know, especially early on in. In my walk with the Lord is. Is man. This is convicting. It's like every.

Everywhere I. I read scripture, it shows me I'm more of a sinner than I recognize. Yeah, that's true. But yeah, it does exactly that. Like you mentioned, points out the fact that there are lots of false converts, people who profess to know Christ, but there's no inward regeneration. There's.

There's no. There's not that new covenant sign of, of taking out the heart of stone and replacing with A heart of flesh, that, that conviction of sin and that understanding that God is holy and I am a sinner and he must judge righteously. And so either you're going to be judged in hell forever for your sins, or that sin was paid for on the cross.

So you mentioned Hebrews, and there is a very important passage, mo often misunderstood that deals with this subject. And it's Hebrews chapter six and starting in verse four. I mean, you could. We would. Typically, if I was going to expound this, we'd look at more, but just for the sake of. Of time. This is dealing with exactly this issue. People who are in the church, they go to church week in and week out. They've grown up in the church. This is all they know. And yet they're not a Christian.

And so they're partaking of the church, but the visible church, the local body that gathers. But they're not part of the church. The invisible universal church. This is what, this is what Paul preached. And someone wrote down. Did I just give that away? Okay, that's my theory. That's what I believe as well. I think, I think it's a sermon from Paul. And Barnabas might have been the one to write it down.

But, but this, the writer of authors, the author of Hebrews writes this in, in Hebrews 6. 4, it says, for the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. Now I'm going to stop there and just say that. A lot of people say, well, this must mean people who are saved and then they lose that salvation. It doesn't need to.

I mean, I, I don't have time to break up in the context, but if you go to strivingfraternity.org put in Hebrews 6. I have a full paper that explains this. But this is people who are partaking. They're, they're in the, the congregation. Okay? It says in verse five, and they've tasted the good, the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away. It is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they have again crucif.

Crucified to themselves the Son of God and put him to open shame. So the person who attends church and does not know Christ, who, They've seen all that and they walk away going, I tried Jesus. I grew up a Christian. I know what Christianity is. It says here, it's impossible for them to be saved. It's impossible for Them to renew. Now, is it saying that that's an absolute thing? No, it's not. It. It's kind of like the parables. It's a generality.

Okay. But the clear instruction we have here in Hebrews, it is a warning to those who would partake and pretend to be Christians, go to church for their own selfish, you know, reasons, whether it's, I want a better life, I did it to marry a girl, I wanted to keep my family. You know, I just thought this is what we should do, whatever reason, whether, you know, I want to try to earn God's, you know, favor, righteousness, whatever that is. If you're.

If you don't know Christ, then it will be impossible for you. I mean, that's. He's saying it in strong language so people would realize if you are someone who goes to church every week and you have never repented, repented, turn from trusting yourself or your good works and turn to Christ, then that warning is for you. Right? Amen. Yeah. And that was one of the. There was Hebrews chapter 6, Hebrews chapter 10, and James for me, especially early on, just trying to understand those passages.

And one day, because I was reading through the. The New Testament over and over and over again. And one day when I got to Hebrews chapter six, it finally made sense. And I'd been studying, you know, listening to other preachers and everything, but I wanted understand it from scripture myself. And then finally one day it made sense when I understood and, and saw. And it was like the Lord focused me on this verse. It was verse nine.

But I'm persuaded of better things concerning you, things that accompany salvation that stood out to me more than any, anything that day. It's like, oh, all that stuff that came before doesn't prove that this was a believer who lost their salvation. This was a false convert. Correct. Because I've been listening to, you know, Ray Comfort and a lot of other people speaking on this issue. But it finally made sense to me that day.

And so that was the end of me thinking, because I was raised being taught that you could lose your salvation if you were ever, ever Christian at all, you could lose your salvation, so you just do better. And that was the false gospel that we were given when we were young. But that put the final nail in the coffin for me, believing that you could lose your salvation. But then there was the question, because I was really early on, I wanted to make sure. But then, am I really a Christian?

Am I really justified? I see that you never lose your salvation, but am I really saved. And so that was that went up and down for actually a few years, concerned that if I was really truly a Christian or if I was just the, the self deceived guy who thought that he understood the gospel, thought that I believed in Jesus. But John Bunyan is fantastic on, on that issue. With what? Because I'm not familiar with what you may be referring to. You mean a book that he has written or.

Yes. Okay, so John Bunyan authored a book. It's called He Did Mountain Grace to the Chief of All Sinners or the chief of Sinners. It is fantastic. Yeah, I mean, I, I have and I could look to see if it's still on my shelf. I've been selling all my libraries, so no, it's not behind me. It'd be on the pure. The puritans are over there. I, I used to have a, you know, a whole bookcase dedicated to him, but now there's only one shelf left. Everyone bought my puritan books. Right.

But yeah, I mean, this is a thing where there's a difference between. What you're describing is the assurance of faith. Right. And what we're talking about with a false convert. There's a difference. So the assurance of faith is a believer who, who's saved, but they, maybe they're in a sin, maybe there's some sin they've been stuck in and they start questioning their faith versus a false convert who believes he's got faith and he, he doesn't. Right. So there's a difference.

How can we know the difference? Well, I'm glad you asked, Randy. Let me, let me give you a way that I, I like to explain it because it really is a struggle. As a pastor, I've dealt with many, many times with folks. And the way that I like to describe this is when you sin, what do you hate? And as a listener, I want you to think about this. Do you hate the consequence of your sin or the act of your sin? In other words, you go and you sin. Is it that you don't like the consequences?

Whether it be you, you, you're you, you're giving over to drunkenness and you don't like that hangover that next day. You don't like the feeling, or you don't like the fact that people recognized you and think less of you? Is that why you don't like the sin? Or, or is it that you hate the sin itself because that's what Christ died for? Now that's a very big difference. Now if you don't hate the sin at all, then let me be clear. You're not a believer. You're not a Christian. Okay?

If you don't hate your sin at all, then this is a total different category. You need to repent. Amen. If you hate the sin because what Christ paid for it, that's the sign of a Christian, you know, And I've heard people that. And I know. I've experienced it myself where, you know, you can. So. So my biggest issue has always been gluttony. Okay. I didn't always recognize it, but I. I always use this as an example because it's just. It so clearly showed me how sin works.

I was on my way to church now, when we used to go to church, we would go over this bridge, and there was a freedman's bakery that. Oh, it smelled so good when you're going over that bridge. And I always wanted to go in there. My wife would be like, you don't need that. I'm like, I know. I just want that. Hello. Difference problem, right. I realized then that I was a glutton. But there was one day I was headed over for leadership meeting, and I was alone in the car, and I was early.

And so I'm going. And I had to be early because in the summer, you know, boats could come. So you had to make sure you got over the bridge. And. And I'm going over the bridge, and I just smelled it, windows down. But here's the thing. I purposely lowered my windows so that I could smell that. Right. And the whole time I'm telling myself, I'm not really going to go in. I'm not. I wouldn't go in and get anything.

I'm telling myself this, but the whole time I'm making excuses like, let me roll that. I'll just smell it. Yeah. I'll just, you know, kind of drive by there. Well, it doesn't hurt to just stop outside of there. Well, I'll just go in and look. I knew the whole time I was going to go in, and then I want to buy something. And the first bite was just. It was over. The whole temptation ended, and it wasn't worth it.

But there was a point where I was actually like, as I'm going, like, I'm standing outside with my hands on the steering wheel because I knew I should not go in, and I knew that I wanted to go in. Yeah. And I hated. Now, who knew that what. What I was doing was sin. Well, me, because there was a. No one else there, and no one would see me going in. A bakery and think that's a sin. For me, it was right. Because of the desire of my heart was wrong.

And I remember actually kind of shaking because I knew it was wrong, what I wanted to do, and I did it anyway. Yeah. And. And it was like, when I took that bite, there was. It wasn't. There was no consequence of anyone, like, looking bad, you know, less than me, or it was the fact that I took that bite. And it, the, the reality of it was, it was. It didn't taste like the anticipation that I thought. And I sat there and was like, Christ died so that I wouldn't be given over to my flesh.

And I did that. And I didn't even eat the rest of it. I tossed it in the garbage. There you go. Complete waste of money. But, but that's the, the heartbreaking aspect of sin for the Christian. It's. It's like, way I explain every now and then is it's like you've been doused with a bucket of cold water. Of course you would like this because you do cold plunges. But it's that feeling. Well, let's correct the record. I do cold plunges. I hate the cold.

True. But I, I do love the cold plunge, like about an hour after I get out, then I love it. Then I'm thrilled with. I'm thrilled with the effects of the cold plunge after. But go, go ahead, continue.

So, yeah, the, the feeling of sin and the, the consequence for the Christian is the conviction and the heartbreaking aspect that you've given in and, and you've committed sin and, and now you, you hate it. You. You hate yourself, you hate the sin. You know, it's just. It's all bad. But see, there's a difference. It's not just enough to hate. Let me give a biblical example. David's son has a lust for his own sister. Half sister. Right. You know the account.

What happens when he finally comes up with this story? His sister brings some baked goods and brings it into his bedroom, and then he rapes her. And the amount of desire he had to lust after her became hatred for her afterwards. And so the question is, was that a hatred for the sin or was it a hatred? Because now he knew what he just did in, in the shame he brought to his family and the abuse he did to his sister, the consequence was what he didn't like. Right.

Versus what he should have done is, is have a hatred for the sin itself. Yeah. And that's the difference between someone who's a false convert. They hate the Consequence, because people are going to look at me bad versus hating the sin itself, which is that, that assurance of salvation that you, you're. You don't feel like you're saved because you've given yourself over to sin when you hate the sin itself. Yeah. Amen.

But, oh, on a lighter note, before we wrap up now, I appreciate your time, brother. It's always a blessing is that I have started taking cold showers. So you will be proud. That's a good. They are terrible. They are. They're horrible. But like you mentioned, about an hour later, you feel fantastic. You feel like you can run through a wall. But don't do that because it's going to hurt. That'll hurt.

Yeah. The cold showers, I would, I'll argue 50 degree cold shower is probably worse than a 50 degree cold plunge. Because what most people do is when they get in a cold plunge, they sit real still. You know why they do that? Yeah. There's a little thermal layer that builds up so you're actually warmer when you're in the shower. There's no. The thermal layer doesn't build, so you get to feel the cold the whole time. And it's, it's terrible, but fantastic at the same time.

I actually watched that cold plunge. You did. And you mentioned that thermal barrier and I was like, yeah, you're right. And so you were moving back and forth and everything. It's like you, you want to chill and you want to break up that thermal barrier. I was like, well, you just, just wait. I, I got a video coming, a cold plunge video. I'm working on some. Something really funny. I'm just gonna, I'll just say. So folks, don't follow me on Facebook or X. You won't see it. Just saying.

But. So that means go follow Andy Rapaport on both Facebook and X. On X, it's Andrew Underscore sf. SFE stands for Striving Fraternity. And on Facebook, I'm Andrew Rapaport. And also go to striving for eternity.org and check out all his stuff. Yeah. From there you can, you can get the my books. You can take part in our free classes that we have online. You could check out our Christian podcast community. You can book a speaker.

We have right now four different speakers, experts in different areas. So all that's available for you. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, and with that, God bless. Appreciate you, brother. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Real quick, I just want to thank you for listening to the podcast. It is so much fun to make, but it's definitely not free and it takes a lot of work. If you feel this has been helpful, please consider donating by clicking the Donate tab under the podcast Notes.

Lord willing, much more to come.