Start Believin’ w/ Ryan Murphy (pt1)

Eyes are very different from even two years ago. Yes, and so it's nice to pick this back up. And I think Jen and I have a plan for this for this version. We're going in depth. We're going to be very open. We're gonna we're not gonna sugarcoat. We're gonna talk about everything. Um and I think ultimately, Jenna, you and I talked about is that there was so

much joy in the process of making Glee. Yes, obviously there are bad things and we will talk about them, but there was a lot of good and we want to explore that. We want to get into the details of the nitty gritty of different departments and who the show have impacted and affected and so going into this first episode and to relaunching this whole thing, we were talking about who could we have, Well, we figured we'd start at the top, right who who better than the man,

the myth, the legend himself, Ryan Murphy. Ryan Murphy, Honestly, I feel like there was a reckoning in the last two years in the best way possible. Um, what you've seen in the media, what you've seen is just a snippet of all of them, of the madness that went on around Glee. But there's so much good and there was so much joy and this thing was, honestly, at least the first couple of years, was made with so much love and UM, I'm just really excited to share

that with you guys. And I feel like we've we've had this, you know, open conversation with Ryan Murphy over the last two years as well, and with all of that, I think everybody's going to this with a new perspective of some sort and and that's why we're doing this and who better to kick it off. We just talk to Ryan for almost three hours. He was so great, open, an honest conversation, and we learned a lot of things

we never knew about behind the scenes. We asked a lot of things, we had questions about that we we have been dying to ask um that we may never get those answers again. So and he was not shying away from and and everything. Buckle up. We hope you enjoy this. We sure did. We learned a lot and here's our kickoff episode. Enjoy our conversation with Ryan Murphy. Let's start at the very beginning, Ryan Murphy. For the people, everybody, this is why old people right, this is Ryan Show today.

Seeing as we have you, we're not going to let you go until we go through everything. And you signed off on that I did. I sort of told you both, like, you know, I've never really talked about Glee or the making of Glee, and you know, for all of us, I think it was the beginning of a lot of things, the end of a lot of things. And I thought, you know what, I'm just going to talk about all of it and say an answer anything that's asked me, and then this is going to be like a really

intense therapy session. So I have my clean xbox nearby, and already your ugs on, you're on a couch, my egs on. I'm on a couch. I decided to treat this like a psychological experiment, and we've all taken and we're ready. We're ready to dive deep. I'm ready to deep dive and answer any arcane. There's no question too small or too big. I think we all need this for some reason. Glee happened over fifteen years ago, and it keeps coming back and people won't let it die.

So let's just do it this. We're bringing it. Let's let's go at the very beginning, very beginning. Yeah, I think so two thousand seven or two thousand eight, Niptuck was in the throes of success, still in the air. Um, you remember you did a pilot called Pretty Handsome with John Grof and you carry and Moss. Yeah, you showed us, I showed you, guys, and that pilot didn't go didn't go forward. How did you go from What was this

process like? Because the story we you heard was you met someone at a gym and got handed a script and eventually that turned into Glee. But what was your experience of how did Glee happen coming off of Pretty Handsome and Niptuck still being on the air. Mm hmm, it was it was always a great It's a great lesson that I always tell people, particularly young people, like every crushing no leads to the ultimate, bigger yes. And that's exactly what happened in the case of Glee. So

I had this big, shiny hit called Niptuck. And when you have a hit like that, you know pretty much the next thing that you do, particularly if you're doing it for the same network, they will say, Okay, great, let's do that. So I put my heart into this show called Pretty Handsome with Joseph Findes. It was actually the first time I think Jonathan Groff had ever been before a camera, as I remember, and I remember saying like, you can't look into the lens, like that's the rule

number one. And he was so charming and was you know, the typical Johnny fashioned like Olivier and Take one. And so I did it. It was it was very much like Transparent. It was it was like ten years before Transparent, and we all loved it and thought it was great. It was about um, a male guyd of collegist who realize that he's a woman and Dot Marie Jones was in it, and you know, it was just an amazing cast and they called me up and they said, we love this, we think it's one of the best things

that we've ever seen. We cannot sell advertising for it. The advertiser advertisers have already told us no, and we can't put it on the air. And I was really really upset, and I think I took to my bed for two weeks. And right at the same time, I had started an overall deal at Fox with Dana Walden, who has gone on to be my big mentor and champion, and she made me have a dinner where her and

she said, you can't be depressed about this. You just have to keep going on and you have to challenge yourself. And she said, what have you always wanted to do that you've never done? And I said, well, I've always wanted to do a musical. And she paused and she said, well, that's not gonna work because there's never been a musical that worked on television like there was famously this Stephen Boco show called cop Rock, and then there was a

Melanie Griffith show around that time. I think it was set in Las Vegas that was people singing, but it didn't work. And I said, well, what if we do a musical that goes on sometime after American Idol or before American Idol, because that which was the biggest, biggest

show in the world. So while we were having these conversations and I was trying to figure it out, like serendipity, I went to the gym and I was in a towel and a guy came up, Mike Novec came up and handed me the script and he said said, I have a feeling you were in show choir. Am I right? And I was like, yeah, I guess I've got a huge gay face in a towel in a gym, and

I said I was. And he said, my friend wrote the script and you should read it, and he gave it to me, and I didn't read it for a couple of weeks while Dana and I were continually trying to talk about, well, what is the musical to crack like, what is it? At one point it was going to be a draculum musical that would have gone over real great.

And so then I finally read Ian script on a plane, and in Ian's original script, it was a very dark comedy that had kind of the idea of it, and Ian and I were both in quired and Mr Shoe I believe as a crystal meth addict in Ian's script, so I like doing was he like touching the children? It was it was like a very dark dark It was sort of like election, remember that Reese Wather's election, but like the NC seventeen version of show Choir with

like a weird protagonist who is unraveling. And as soon as I read it, I was like, Okay, well this is it, and I said what if we? Because what I loved was the idea of um kids in high school. And one of the things that I have since learned in um my career is it it seems like shows that work or TV experiences that work very often feature people going through quote unquote first times, first kiss, first loss,

first singing, singing experience, on and on and on. So I kind of instinctively wanted to do something about first and I wanted to do something after my transsexual show didn't go that was the opposite of that. Like I wanted something very very poppy and primary colors and blue

sky and not dark. I had done Niptuck and I had done pretty handsome, and I was like, I just need to do something optimistic, and so I convinced Ian to work on a draft that sort of leaned into all of that stuff, and we presented it to Dana and she actually liked it and she said, I think that this could actually work. So she was the first

champion of it, just as the idea UM. And then we started writing that and it sort of took six months to write it, and we wrote it, and then the interesting thing was we turned it in and Kevin Riley, who was had hired me at f f X and was now running Fox with Peter Lagory, said I love this pilot. It's weird, it'll probably never go It has one huge problem, and knowing you, I'm shocked and disappointed

in you. And I said, oh my god, what And he goes, there's no bad person in here, like all these people are nice and optimistic, and he goes, there's no one to hate, and I said, you're right, And then Ian and I talked and within fifteen minutes, I said, I know what it is. It's a horrible cheerleading coach

like Jane Jane Lynch type person. And I had worked with Jane before UM, but we kept calling her Jane Lynch like so that's then we put Cecil Vester into the pilot script and if you notice going back that character is not in it a lot um and and and that's why because we just had to put it in there to get it green lead. And then Kevin was like, eureka, you've done it. So then it got we got it picked up and we were off to the races. But it was a very interesting, bizarre way

to make something. What's I remember you when you would sort of tell us like the short version of that story back in the day when you like I walked into Fox and they were like, okay, sure, go for it. Was like, who in the right mind would be like, yeah, um, you this TV person who has created all these dark shows and this pilot that we love that we can't actually green light. We want you to go for this thing that's probably the hardest thing to get success with.

And they were like, yeah, go for it. On multiple levels, well, like do you feel like you were out of your element or in your element? Because we always kept like when we were doing press after the pilot, everybody was like, this is so not Ryan Murphy. This is this is the opposite of what Ryan Murphy does. Like, do you feel like you are in or out of your element

creating this show. I really felt like I was in my element because you know, I had kind of lived that show in a weird way, because there were parts of me in all of the regular parts, you know, the small group of regulars. Then it became like you know, Night of a Thousand Stars eventually, but they were like five key part and I think there was a lot of me in all of those parts, because you know, Ian and I had really were working on the just the ideas of it, and I felt very personal to

all of them, you know. Um, And you know, I started this business writing Popular, which was a very also a high school show that was a comedy. But then I became the prince of Darkness. And I think that what the town does is that you are your last hit, right, so then you're suddenly that thing. And I never thought

it was true. And it was a very interesting time in the life of show business in Hollywood because if you look back at it now, you know, really the two biggest champions of Glee, we're Dana Walden and Jen Sulky. Jen has gone on to run Amazon, and these two powerhouses were the ones I wouldn't say they were battling the guys, because the guys, you know, Kevin Riley and and Peter Rice and Peter Legory were always interested in it.

But it was a very interesting, long battle. But for some there was something about it that as soon as we made it, I just knew that it was special, and I kept just saying to everybody, just get it on the air, and if it gets on the air, I know it's gonna work. So you know, when you that was back when there was such a thing as pilot season. So we made the pilot and we turned it in and you had to do things called test screeners.

So we took Glee, Dane and I in Jen and we went to some place in Studio City with a test audience and we showed it to them, and I think it literally got the worst scores in the history of the bombed. It was just like complete bomb And the thing that at the end of it um the people didn't realize it was a musical, so they kept there was like checked which category or you best, how you would market this show? And they not a single person and there were thirty six people in that room

thought that it was a musical. Um, so they one person a lot of people thought it was a satire and they would they wrote that, which it kind of was. Yeah. So then there was the powerful person in the world who really didn't understand it, and there was you know, back then there all these different levels of programmers. There was also a lot of I'll just say it, there

was a lot of homophobic fear about this show. Um. There was one very powerful person within the corporation who would repeatedly at screenings of it when they were showing it before it was picked up, who kept calling it the fag show, which made everybody in the executives who

had championed it furious. And that was back in the day where you could say this in a room full of people and nobody would bat an eye, especially you were super super powerful, super powerful in your doctors, you know, standing there and that you know, like this person also came up to me a different no matter. It was just hilarious. Like it was one of those things where there were like really five people who believed in it. And then there was Joe Early, who did the marketing

of it, instantly got what it was. He was the one who working with me came up with the color scape of the yellows and the reds and all of you guys doing the l's on your head. It was very simple, and we worked, Joe and I worked a lot on that concept. But the thing about it that was great is is it had all these guardian angels. It had Dana first and foremost, who after that disastrous test screating took me out for a drink and she said, you know what, I don't care. I don't care what

they think they're wrong. What version was the test? Was it the one that actually aired? No, the version of the test had the infamous long Um disco dancing segment with Mr She was a child Um. And I will say, like, after that disastrous screening, the good thing about that screening was it sort of made everybody put on there, Okay, well, how do we convince people that this is a mainstream concept? Um? And it was. The idea was if you take that out and get right to you know, because that was

polarizing because the costumes were like based on Copacabana. It was very very odd and so that that was the first thing to go, and not much after that, and once that we lifted that out I think it's since been seen in like DVD cuts and things like that. Um we um, yeah, we we took that out and then um people were more comed rble with it. And then we didn't make any changes at all. And then the interesting thing was, I don't know if it was

based on my relationships, I think so. Um. And also just because the like Dana and gen and and everybody had been the ringer through it, we got like the first thirteen ordered and that was a magical thing because you know, we got to make those first the first thirteen episodes, no one had seen it, no one had watched it, and we were on the paramount lots. Yeah, we were making it in a real bubble and it was the only thing I was working on the Pray Love with Julia Roberts at the time. But you know,

it was very, very singular. I don't even remember how many of those did I direct three of the thirteen? I think, um, maybe three or four. But I was I just remember making it and not really caring if it was going to be a hit or a bomb, because I knew that the first third Team would get on the air, and I thought, well, maybe this is gonna be like a Freaks and Geeks thing where you know, the third teen will air and then it will be canceled,

but people will look back on it. Finally, because I knew that it would mean something to anybody who had been in show choir. Yeah, what were your expectations? None? None, and you know, there was it. My expectation was actually when we aired the pilot, it aired in May, I think, right around the American Idolphin. It was right after the season finale American, and I thought, just I don't know

how this is gonna do. And it did. And I remember the next morning and there was that you know, back then it's just not that long ago, but so long ago, you know, you'd get the call. Well it did, okay, it didn't do great, you know, but we still love you. We hope that you don't look at this as discouraging.

It's it's okay and you got your being seen and yeah, so it was sort of I always thought it was gonna be like that, Like I thought it was gonna be niche, because you know, I had gone through niche before with Popular, you know, which aired for two seasons and had a very small loyal old audience. Back then, we would call it CULTI, but you look at the ratings for those shows that are culty. Those ratings existed today.

Popular was more would be like Game of Thrones, like more and more people were just watching television, and the ratings were so high compared to now. So I think I remember it the pilot aired, I got on a plane and flew to Bali, right, and I just thought, well, that's what it's gonna be. It's gonna air in the fall, and it's gonna be something that we loved making and we were all proud of, and it's just gonna kind

of be a culty thing and that's that. And I had no expectation for the back seven episodes, although I had things in mind, and I knew that if it did get picked up, I was going to do a Madonna episode and that was going to be my big swan song. I'd come here to do what I was gonna do. So I had no exactly and I had no plans other than that. And I don't know how you guys felt. I remember the last day of shooting.

I remember getting the cast together and saying something because I had a really bad experience with the with the niptuck ending, you know, and going through something that burned really bright, and then everybody kind of falling apart, and I remember giving a speech about staying close and being in it for the work. I don't know if you remember that. I believe. I believe I cried that a

couple of times. God help. But you know what I really remember about that time was, you know, even you're you're saying that I showed you guys the pretty handsome pilot, Like there were some time where, you know, almost all of the cast was known in certain circles, Broadway circles, Jenna, certainly Kevin from your musical background, but nobody really knew a lot about the cast. And we spent every day together.

We had weekends together. I mean, I would bring you guys into this little black room that was the size of a closet, like thirteen of you, and I would screen rough cuts just so that you would get excited and people would be cheering everybody else's musical numbers. And it was a very it was a very wonderful. You know, I was single at the time. I had not you know, but also Glee led me to my marriage, which is another story. But yeah, it was like it was my life.

It was Julia Robertson, you guys and munt and we were all we all that the stupidest things I could possibly imagine. Stop talking now. Kevin and I remember we talked about this a lot, like we spent It was very much a bubble. The world hadn't seen the show yet. We didn't know what it was going to be. Our expectations were non um. In the middle of it, the pilot airs and it does well, and all of a sudden, there's these commercials of Glee was watched by fifteen million

people and the song's number one on iTunes. Were like, we did the mall to this hot topic mall tour or you know, like the thing that I'm glad that you remember the headlines is being good because I remember those headlines as well. They got fifteen million viewers, but that's only because people who were watching American Idol forgot to turn on the channel, So it's not a thing. I remember thinking that because I was always sort of

the numbers guy, were like the cast. I would always report back to the cast like what our ratings and music were doing, and I remember being like, Okay, well, they're like, really milking this. We don't really know yet, but we are. In every department, I think it wasn't just us, It wasn't just you. In every department, the crew, production, behind the scenes, everyone felt the same thing, where no one talked about if it was going to be successful

or not. We were just having the time of our lives. We'd show up, we'd make the crew laugh, we'd have to do these crazy musical numbers with the incredible Andrew Mitchell and Steadycam and it was everyone just felt was all in on making this thing work, that we you were creating the formula as it was happening, and we were all just sort of like, I don't know what this is going to be. I don't know who this

is for, but we love it. It felt like it was for us, and you know, it felt like you were also you were very hands on with us from the very beginning, where you gave us I don't know, I think three or four speeches like the one you talked about where and you did explain sort of vaguely about coming off of this Niptuck experience where you wanted to make sure that you handled this in a way that you felt was better or healthier or a more

correct way to deal with the cast. And I think because we were young and completely unknown and I don't know us completely green, that you would talk us through, like gently, sort of hold our hands through if their success, if we're lucky enough to have any success, this is sort of what will happen, and if it does happen, this is how we should handle it together as a group. And then when we did start to build momentum and get success, you would sort of check in and be like, Okay,

here's where we are. This is very rare air and this may never happen again. Yeah, like this is And that was for you, that was for us, that was for everyone. And I remember I feel like had you not been there with the foresight to sort of talk us through that you had been running shows before, but you also didn't know at the time you were about to be running this billion dollar business, so you didn't

know either. I knew nothing. Yeah, you know how to run a successful show that was had a core fan base and was getting picked up, and that's what you were concerned about for us, which was I think very helpful. But then it sort of exploded into this yeah, yeah, it was. It was a I would say it was like the best of times the worst of times for me. The thing that I was very aware of was, Okay, I hope this is a TV show that's like loved and you know, along the lines of my so called

life at best. So I had only had really one hit at that point, and it, let me tell you, it was a cable hit, and so it was not like it was not it was a smaller, utra ultra hit.

And then to go from being like, okay, you're a showrunner to your the manager of a billion dollar brand literally within a month, because what happened was the show I was in Italy shooting with Julia when the shows that we had had in the can started to shoot started to air in September, and it was one of those things where it came on and with every episode it built and built and built, until I think by episode three, when Kristin Chenowith came on the show, it

had just become a phenomenon that sometimes you see like something just explodes out of the gate and then it's there. So I was getting all of these calls from executive saying, oh my god, it's doubled in the ratings, It's tripled

in the ratings. That that that, that that that, and then the Fall Award nominations came out, and then the music started to become it literally its own industry, and I had that was overwhelming for me because you know, pretty much for the first three years, any song that was on Glee I handpicked, and it was because I loved the song and I could sing it in car like it was just like I would have CDs mixtapes of things like. It was just I was a fan.

The show was about being a fan and a love of pop music and Broadway music and classic rock yeah who yeah, And a lot of that was Brad stuff. You know, Brad was interested in the Springsteen stuff and the Speedwagon stuff and um yeah, it was what was interesting about it was so then it became suddenly like, Okay, now you have a show that I believe, by the time it hit the spring was the number one show

in the world. Then you had this other component, which is the music, which for a long time, the record held where the Glee cast was, you know, the number one recording artist in the world. I think it held until last year until Drake snatched it away with his Canadian hands. You know, I love that drink. He also

played a wheelchair bound student in a high school show. Yes, he did can Then we did that, and then of course it was that thing that happened, which in hindsight was probably a mistake, which was let's go on tour, because what happened the first season we had fun doing the little you know, the radio city music hall thing that felt like that at that that aren't that. It was silly and crazy. But then to go and then you guys became like little Taylor Swifts like that became

this thing and it just was it was. I was very overwhelmed by the three headed hydra element of it because again I knew nothing, and I had never had any experience doing this, right, I had never had any experience of running something on this level. Yep. I mean there's no training for that unless you've actually done it before. There's no school, like, here are the things you need to know when you're running a billion dollar business that

is TV and music and touring. Well, this is the This is the thing that's very I think up about Hollywood, right is you can be a person who is writing a script you are sitting in a room by yourself with your Starbucks and a sad, broken down laptop. You can write something, you can turn it in, and then you can have a corporation say here's a billion dollars, go have fun. And you're like, I don't know how to hire people. I don't know how to manage people.

I don't know how to how am I supposed to do all this while working on the creative element of the show. It's truly like, you still have to turn in two episodes back then, yeah, twenty two, and the three of you wrote those yes to all together, yes for the first two seasons. Yes, So it was It's just I wish that there was some for to sort

of formal training on how to be a showrunner. And you weren't given the keys to the kingdom unless you learned how to not just manage your time, not just manage other people, but also how to manage your own mental health. Because I don't know any CEO in the world who becomes CEO without like at least ten years of training. So it's absolutely insane to be able to

you know, manage something, let alone a cultural phenomenon. It was very, very very difficult for me, and I remember feeling like I failed a lot, and I did fail a lot, and I have, you know, regrets about that about I shouldn't have done a lot of those things. I shouldn't have agreed to a lot of those things. But at the same point, I'll never forget that opening night at Staples Center. It was insane. It was like, well, who, like, okay,

check that up the bucket list. But there was a cost to that, you know, there was I can't even imagine, and I mean I do imagine, but like for you guys having to not just do twenty two episodes a year of a one hour but recorded the musical numbers while in choreography between takes. I mean, thank god you were all so young. But it was but you know, back then and there was no conversation about mental health. There was no conversation about, um, none of that stuff.

We want to we really want to dive into that on this podcast too, about you know, like taking care of yourself and what and how Hollywood does generate this like go go go kind of hustle culture that um, you you really do have to look out for yourself and some people don't even know how to um. And I think for us it was like over everything was so overnight for you. For us, like this was all brand new territory and we didn't know how to We couldn't say no, We didn't know how to say no.

In a way, that's how I felt. I could not say no because you know, for what, it's so hard to get a job. You finally get a job, you get hired on the show, and then it's successful, and then on top of that, it's it means a lot to people, you know, like you hope to get a job, and you hope the check clears and you get to

keep going back every day. But at the same time, we're now you know, hearing from people like what you hope for the show, it did find his audience and it was a lot bigger than you ever could have imagined. And it's like, I think we come from the world of especially the theater world with Jenna and Leah, where it's like you just put your head down and work that you say thank you and you go full out whenever you're asked to work. And so I had the same experience and the only gauge I had that we

were probably doing more than what was normal. Was sort of from the crew. They're like, anything you do after this is going to be easier. You know, I do want to win in one thing that I just said, because I was thinking about it about you know, the truth of the matter is I did say yes that the responsibility is on me. And I'll tell you why I said yes to all of these things because when I first started off in the business, you know, it

was a gay guy. I would go to meetings with executives and some of them would literally imitate my voice like it was rough. It was really really hard, and I thought, I'm never going to be a success. I'm never going to get a job. My show was canceled the first two seasons after popular. After that, I struggled. So I knew what it was like to have a

weird sensibility and to not work. So once you get a green light and you're driving a very fast car, if the next light is a green light, it's human nature to go through the green light, to take the yes because it may never come back again. And of course I've since realized that that's probably was not the way to be, but just for my own life, I was like, well, this could be the end. So the only time I ever said no was in the middle

of the third season. They really did want to do a Darren Chris Dalton Warbler's spinoff, and I said, I don't think that's I don't think I think. Wow, Yeah, we we were talking about doing a Warbler spinoff, and I said, I just I don't have the bandwidth. I can't do it. And I should have done it. Actually, looking back on it, what I wouldn't kill to have done that show because it would have been great. Um, it would have been and it would have solved a

lot of other problems. But I yeah, I mean, I just would like to emphasize again, and I've said this to you. You know, we had a really an interesting thing that happened in my life when Naya passed away. It was a moment where all of us were kind of brought back together for a while in grief, and we finally all got to say, you know what I really think of you, and you know what I really think you did, and you know how I really felt

about that experience. And it was really interesting for me to hear the truth that you guys had, which was, you know, we had started it in such a tight, loving way. And then as it went on and it became bigger, I sort of felt like I just became so overwhelmed by the business aspect of it that I became almost like an absentee father who shows up at the end of the day and pats the kids. And I had no idea to think that. You guys were like, where did dad go? Why? What? Where did you go?

And where I was at was I was in meetings looking at glee merch, trying to pick the right color of blue, or planning the tour, or dealing with the ratings or right the awards. Yes, it was. It was, And it was interesting to go through that experience with you guys not so long ago, to sort of sit and be like, huh, yeah, I kind of that up. And I wish I had been more present. I wish I had known. I wish I had known how to be um a proper parent like I did not know.

I was making it up as I was going along. And the interesting thing about that whole experience was that it really did prepare me for parenting. It taught me a lot about how to be with young people, what to do and what not to do and also more importantly, like the most important thing is the human connection, and um, yeah, all the other stuff doesn't matter, like the tour should

should not have mattered. And I wish I had just sat my ass on that set and enjoyed the experience and was there just because I remember sometimes when I would show up later and waft in in my black vampire outfits just sit there that you know, like I remember just like you guys would look at me like mm hmmmmnet there was a disconnect and then but slowly you would all I would, I would, you know, be sitting there and slowly the next thing that we'd be

sitting there singing Andy Monica songs like we did when we were making the pilot and it felt like, oh, that feeling that we all had the love that we had for that's just each other, but what we were doing, UM was still there. And I think a lot about and you know, and also I had, UM I've never been as close to a cast. I've never tried to be as close to a cast, because I think that all of our lines like where we friends, was I

your boss? I I was I was Actually the thing that people also think about shoan Runners is like, you know, we actually all worked for the same person. We were all employees of Fox. I was not your boss. I was an employee, although I was given this sort of position of power that I really was not prepared for. But yeah, it was a It was a particularly those

beginning years were really really heavy and overwhelming. But I have to say I look back on it with a real great degree of of affection because for every bad moment, there were like a hundred great moments. And I just the thing that I remember so vividly was I had a house account at the Chateau Armant and I cannot tell you how many nights we as a group shut that place down. I mean we had a ball. We had a ball, and I remember even some of the

first award shows we went to as a group. We won't name them, but I just remember us having a sense of what is happening, like it was so fun. It was, it was so fun, and we we had a ball, and we were just always together. We were always together, whether it was filming at dinner, we were together more than we were with our own families. And and I think you're right, run like, thanks for sharing that.

I feel like in a parallel, parallel universe we were going through the same thing where we didn't we weren't prepared for what was happening in our lives, and we weren't prepared for it, and we loved this show, and we you know, I I look back with very fond memories. Now a million good things outweigh the one bad thing in the press that we see these days. You know, a million great things that weren't talked about, And I think that's what we want to do on this show,

is share all of those. But you know, in this parallel universe, like the show was ours for those first thirteen twenty episodes or however many we did before the world kind of took it. And that's that was for us to make for them in many ways, like it changed many lives, it saved lives, and and I'm so grateful for that because it kept us going and those really hard and seasons of like people are still hanging on and still with us and still really enjoying this,

so we do it for them. But um early on, like it was ours and then all the power and everything was kind of like it became so external, and that was like an incredibly difficult shift that none of us, I think had the time or energy to process at that point. We were so exhausted and we were still working.

You were you started horror story at that point, Like there were a million things going on that like nobody got to sit in process until you come to a point where you lose one friend, you lose two friends, you lose three friends, you lose crew members, you lose all these really important people in such a momentous time in your life that you go back and go, what

was it really about? What was it that made it so special that gives you that feeling of Like I remember when we went to the upfronts for the first time and we watched that trailer that we had made, and I was bawling and They're like everybody's laughing at me, but I was like, I love this thing. I get it, like I got it before I think some people got in and I was. I just so attached to it and attached to all of us and this little family that we had made. So yeah, I think I agree

with you. Like I look at back at that period and I remember being emotional about every cut, like showing you guys and sitting in those rooms and crying. And I think, if you look back at it, it it was a very interesting group of people because all of us had something in common. And the thing that when I look back is we all were kind of nerds, and we all felt unloved and unseen, not just maybe in

our families but by the business. We all were like these kind of people that had weird, unique talents that were unseen and finally we got to show them. And then against all odds, people loved us after hating us for so long. At least that's how I felt. And that's a very emotional thing that we went through because

we were kind of united. We were all marginalized people and suddenly we became the establishment and the trend setters, and that also can screw with your ego, and that was also very interesting and bizarre to me, and um a lesson learned. But yeah, I just I just, you know, it's that thing. I always think, like, God, I really did love it, and if I could, those those two years I will say, from the making of the Glee pilot probably to two thousand and eleven were, without questioned,

the happiest years of my life. Without a doubt. I look back on that time and I think, wow, that's what I was doing Glee. That's when I met my better I mean, I've been friends with my better half, but you know, I started dating him because he was dating some guy who was like twenty years old. And he called me up after a long time where I hadn't spoken to me. He said, can you get me Glee tickets from the guy? I'm like, you've got to

be kidding, and so he I got. I'm like, okay, So I got him tickets to the Radio City Glee thing. And I was, you know, chain smoking at the time, so I was rail thin, and I was wearing this Jill sound or coat and I looked good for like two weeks in my life. And that was the period. And then he saw remember the skinny mini, and then he was like, who is what happened here? So that that's how I started to date David that night and then we kis married right David's But it's sort of

that was a great period in my life. Of listen, there were battle royal's but it was fun because you know, again I get back to it was the first the first big success, the first moment in the spotlight where you know, we were all kids, I think, knowing all you guys who were singing in front of mirrors with hair brushes, and then you get to be in a global stage doing something like that, it was a wondrous time. It was constantly, every single day was like all of

our wildest dreams coming true. I feel like, as easy as it is now to look back and be like, yeah, here are things we could have done differently, I also feel like and that in the beginning, by you putting yourself out there to be our friend, you know, and be that close to us, for better or for worse, it did make us feel safe and protected. Though. It did allow us to show up every day and to show our unique abilities and talents and skills that nobody

else cared to see before. And so I do think because of that, because of the tone you said that, yeah, even if we hadn't seen you for a while and you'd come out set, we'd still run over to you because you felt like a foundational aspect of who we are, who we are or were in relationship to the show, and so you allowed us to be all of those things. You pushed us to be our better selves and get our talent out there as much as possible. In the

very beginning, yes we're retired. Yeah yeah. And then of course it was that thing where you know, I also had I remember like I I was the person that also had to be the disciplinarian about some of these things, like you know, laying down the law, which is absolutely absurd now, like you know what it should have been.

There should have been some person who was just in charge of schedules and personalities, and it's like, you know, there was there was no exactly but you know, like I'll just speak graphically and we can cut it out,

you know, like if you want. But I started off that job as a writer and a producer, and halfway through that job, because of the phenomenon that it became and the things that then happened when you were part of a phenomenon, and some of them are good, some of them are bad, you know, I had to deal with things that are absolutely batshit crazy out of my knowledge. Like I had no idea about how to handle domestic violence. I had no idea how to handle addiction. I had

no idea how to handle unwanted pregnancies. I had no idea how to do any of these things. So I was in this role of like the boss but also a friend and actually loving everyone. And then it was just very, very overwhelming, and um again, it really did teach me about parenting and what not to do, what to do and yeah, and I'm just I'm just so relieved and thrilled that at the end of the day.

And again, I'll go back to the Naya thing, which was incredibly healing, but I'm glad that we all got to have these It was like a couple of weeks to really talk about what Glee did to us and what Glee did for us, and those are two very different things. And it was really healing and getting to because you and I would tell you guys, like, Okay, you had that feeling, but did you know that when that was going on, I was doing X X Y Y, and you guys had no idea because I would always

keep that stuff from you for the most part. But that was that was interesting to share what I was going through too, because so many times I think you guys would think that I was just this sort of automaton dressed in calmed Garson who would come level but it wasn't that I was torn up and struggling and

trying to figure it out. I found it interesting when when we did you the night when Naya I went missing, you called me Ryan, and I remember thinking, because at that point I was we were all distraught and you know, wondering what was happening. And I remember in the sense that I had anytime I talked to you always talked about Glee with sort of this I don't know if it was anger or it wasn't definitely wasn't positivity. It was sort of like I'm over at everything's annoying, everyone's whatever.

And you called me and I was sort of like, look, I don't know how it came up, but I was like, I don't know what impression you have of the show, but it has brought a lot of us, a lot of good and a lot of positivity and a lot of joy. And and then from there you and I talked every day for I don't know, almost a month, and very quickly it turned into you know, what do we all have to lose by not talking to you directly into each other about the things that brought us together,

and then what sort of took us apart? And it was very interesting also to like watch your transformation sort of every phone call of also working through things the way we were also all working through things, and I felt like it was very um as and it was such odd timing but made sense that It's like, of course Nia is going to just have us talk about everything,

through everything out there as she would. And it was through grief, like you said, be able to completely sort of like open up all the wounds from everyone and just spill it. And you were like, I'll take it.

I will sit there and i will take it because I want everyone to know that I'm listening and hearing what they're saying and I'm accepting, you know, their experience, and I was on the other side of it, and um, it is interesting now to hear how you've also like shifted and had this more you know, positive outlook, because I think it's it's so easy to get way down, especially externally by all like the ship people say who weren't involved in it at all, and it's like, no,

we spent years having just incredible, incredible, positive, joyful experiences and getting to do craziest things like in one weekend we performed on Oprah and then went to the White House and hung out at the White House and then performed at the White House. Did it was like we

would rather you did. I was there, you were there, We were doing insane things, and there were so many great things that we And the reason we're always going to be connected like this and so deeply is because only we only have each other to relate to end this, because nobody else went through this, and we all went through a very specific set of circumstances. And so I think that's also why we feel things so deeply with

each other. Where the highs are high and the lows are low, is because like family, it's like, well, I have no one else to relate to on this, so like I, I either hate you or I love you, and I can say I hate you because I love you.

And so it's sort of that high school drama that you know doesn't ever and unless you face a head on which you sort of spearheaded, that wasn't That was an interesting um switch for me at Also other things started to happen at that time, right, I mean, I think the thing for me is like that idea of being a part of a cultural phenomenon and sort of going so high that once you're so high, you can only come down, and the feeling coming down is not

good for anybody. It doesn't feel good. And then the media starts to take, you know, shots at you and punish you for the thing that they actually rewarded you for identically six months before so. And then you did warn us of that, by the way, I distinctly, but I guess we were super young, but you did walk us through those things until it happens. It's sort of unbelievable theoretical. I think the thing that happened for me was there was a there was a turning point for

me where, um, I was in it. I was in it. I was and then you know that thing where you're like the gay kid, who, what do you mean? You're gonna make my dream horror show and green light that? Yes? What do you mean? I can go do the normal heart yes? Like I just was so thinking that I would never work again that I took the yeses and then I started to build this business that I've really enjoyed, and that kind of took me further out to see. And then I think you guys felt further estrange for

me because physically I wasn't there creatively. Then you know, we added a writer's room and it became a bigger thing. And I think the thing that happened for me to be blunt was, you know, Corey died, and then after Corey's death and I had to plan a memorial service, I was like, I don't, I don't know how to do this anymore. I can't, I don't know what to do. Um. And it was so painful and dark, and I think

we all felt that. But you know, there was also a very large crew who had been with us from the beginning who was very little, yeah, just no turnover. It was a family, and people wanted to keep working, and well not everybody, there were a few that didn't, but UM, I just think that after that, I was sort of like Elvis has left the building. I think my spirit had gone out of it. And I was so devastated by his death, UM that I had to step away from my own mental health, even though I

didn't call it mental health at the time. So it did become like this sort of thing where there was a lot of space between us. But then recently what has happened is we all, most of us got back together in a very adult good way and had adult conversations. You guys are adults now you're not kids, you know, And sort of that was a shift in all of your lives. You have partners, you have children, like um,

you process it differently. And then now you know, Glee is on Hulu, It's on Disney Plus, and every day there are people who reach out to me about my eight year old is watching this show. And these young people have no memory of it being in the media and a cultural phenomenon. They're just loving the musical experience of it. So that to me has been sort of reinvigorating and like, oh, the work lasted and the works

tested the you know. And it's also hilarious to me some of the stuff that we did in those later seasons that were so mercilessly attacked by the press. Example, remember when we did those scenes with Sue as Jigsaw and and like the Puppet and Jane had the hurt Rocker.

I believe that there were there were many columns written about that I should be killed for those scenes, but now they are among the most beloved watched streamed like, so it's interesting, like everything comes still wrong, You're still wrong for what the Fox is Kevin and Style. Okay, let's talk about these two songs, which I have been a gang of style and what the Fox says. I would like you to put yourself in my little I understand why you did it? Understand Okay, twenty two episodes

a year to fill. Right, So when you're doing it and you're like, well, what's that. That's what's at the top of the charts, like, um, yeah, And if you look at that show, you can also look at like what was popular and what was classic, like it was a weird mixture. And yes, I will say Gangham style not the best moment, but there was a reason why it was only because it was so incredibly popular. And Glee in some regards, was like the jukebox musical of its day, the top of the pops. You could tune

in to see what was totally popular. But I don't know, is that is that your least favorite number? Nay. I felt like I was the last one to break out of the cast, the last and that was my breaking point because I think I think it's because I don't I don't know, but there was something about having puppets and doing that and doing that number or I it was just like what fever? Dream? What has happened? Dream? And there's an actual shot of me looking into the

camera where I'm just like, I don't know. I think it was just because like, okay, am I allowed to break? Now everyone else has broken. It took a very long time for you. And this is my reaction. But I will say, do you remember, like, speaking of all the current music, people used to send you their music, like I remember Gaga sent you Born Born this Way album because Brad and you you guys walked back onto set and Brad was like, oh, yeah, we just Lady Gaga's

people brought us over their music. Brad Falchuk the straightest man on earth talking about listening to Lady Gaga and I was like, oh my god, how was it like? And he was like, oh yeah, there's probably some hits on there. I'm like, where's Ryan? And so I knew exactly what the hits with ye like that was? That was? That was? You know, that was That was a very interesting period and again McCartney sent his music over. UM.

I learned a lot from that period. Um. That was a weird period where when Glee became popular that we could reach out to any artist in the world, and they would pretty much say yes except a few yeah.

But I also learned something like that from that, like you know that whole Kings of Leon thing when when that was the first rejection, I think, and I took it personally and I gave an interview with a lot of you briss in a really big head and and said really stupid things, And looking back on it, I feel like they were right, like you as an artist should be allowed to, you know, do with your music what you will. And I should never have said anything.

I that was just the I learned a lot of life lessons and I was such a jerk in that interview. I don't know why I said some stupid thing about depriving America's children of Kings of Leam. I don't remember that, but it was. It was not good. Don't remember then they came out because I was devastated. I love you. I love that we were sitting in the same row as them at the Grammys. I was like, oh, I

was like, this is embarrassing. I love you. I had I had that moment with Dave Grohl, who I really love as an artist, and he spoke out against that interview. I don't know if you recall saying, who is this guy saying something? And I was going to some another awful award show moment and he was in front of me and turned around and goes, oh, hi hi, He goes, It's all good. He was such a lovely guy. And he was such a lovely guy. But again, things that

you learned, Like I never had any media training. I was just so thrilled to literally have Taylor Swift and Beyonce an Adele remember Adele Adele would talk about her love of Glee and her love of Amber and just like that was that was amazing, Like to be a part of those that experience with that level of artists, To have Stevie Nicks show up on set and send flowers, remember that huge flower arrangement she sent, that craft room we had, she gave, she talked to us in the

Glee in the classroom, and she was It was just like that really great period where as a fan, you could say, or I could say, like I wanted to do songs and pay tribute to people that I loved, like Barbara Streisan. You know, I got to meet Barbara because of Glee and become friends with her. So it was like past and present, but it was it was.

It was that show in the in the in the moment in time, was UM an indisputable force in terms of I was would say, you know, showcasing the love of music, and to me, that's what it really was about. It was about I love music. Music is something that brings people together. It's a great equalizer. I, you know, had the lead in every musical in high school. One of my great tragedies is that I did not become

a pop music singer. What I really wanted to be was a pop music singer and or the editor in chief of Vogue, and I could not do either of them, which is why I'm doing what I'm doing. So we know, you can run a little bit. I can't actually, and by run we mean I only I only could do one thing. But it was just fun and UM that's

the that's the joy of that show is UM. I think the love of music that even if you watch it, I think you can tell now because I went back in preparation for this and watch some of the old episodes and you can tell, like, oh, they really did love what they were doing and they really did have a great appreciation and admiration for these artists, and we were interpreting them in different ways and mashing things up, and it was all like love letters to me, except

Gangham style not a love letter. Three am, what are we going to do in here? But I still love that song I do. I'm sorry, I love it selfishly. I mean that K pop episode. I remember Brad turning to me. He's like, do you I heard you like K pop? I was like, I love K pop. He's like, what can we put in the background of the scene. I'm like, I'll send you a whole list and I got my favorite K pop artists? You did? Yes, we're like rehearsing to to Big Bang, which was my favorite

group at the time. But what season was this? What was this? No? God three or four must have been later um in the spirit of like artists and all these amazing people. What about the guest stars and and talk about the casting of the pilot as well, like were you pitched big name like and what made you decide to go with all of us little unknown? You know, well, that was a that was a wondrous, amazing um casting session that I've really only had once since, and that

was with the cast of Pose. It was a very similar idea, which was, let's let's make stars. Let's there's so much talent out there, let's let's find people. When we were writing the the pilot, I've never really talked about this. That pilot was written for Justin Timber, Mr Shoe was written for Justice. Wait a second, hold up, this is actually brand new information. I think we need to pause and we'll we will talk about this next time.

So come back next week to hear the second part of our almost three hour conversation with Ryan Murphy, because you don't want to miss it. It's just getting started.