Glee Co-creator Ian Brennan Part 1

And That's what you Really missed with Jenna.

And Kevin An iHeartRadio podcast.

Welcome to and That's what You Really miss podcast. Do we have the Founder, the Pioneer, Ian Brennan.

One of the Holy Trinity. We have Ian back because the recap is coming to an end, and we found out Ian has some strong feelings about season six and some missing memories and some missing memories, which a common theme here on That's what you Really missed? And I think I'm very excited for you all to hear what he has to say about so much. We talk about a lot, a lot, so buckle up. This is Ian Brennan. Oh my god, in a suit.

I'm dressed like an off duty birthday clown.

I beg to say that for us, this is how normally.

No, No, it's not. Yeah, it's off Yeah, it's not that off brand.

I'm not saying the clown.

You said that.

I think you dress very dashing style.

I've looked better at guys.

I I exercised before coming here, so I'm good for years. I've got some flyaways.

It's kind of blazer on.

Aren't you warm after you work out and you put a warm blazer around like that.

Gotta keep gotta recovery.

You gotta work in the muscle muscle confusion, extream muscle recovery.

Your muscles are like suits on. Now let's clean it up, boys.

Guys, we've gone from the gym.

Now hit the boardroom.

I know this is not why we asked you to be on here. I feel like you've always had such a distinct sense of style. You have great sensibilities when it comes to these things. Well, thank you, and like, what have you always had that?

I know it's when I stopped wearing jeans.

Have been talking about this.

Yeah, I don't think I ever met you were wearing jeans when we met you.

Sort of around nine to eleven, but there was no read.

That's right, that's right, Yeah, that's right.

But yeah, I can't do it. I can't wear jeans. So is this the last how far through are you?

Are you? Is it the last one?

We are at? We're in the last season. Half we did the last season?

Great, Yeah, so we're in.

Then we're in the end.

We're in season six.

But I need to take it back because I think we need to take it back to like season five. I think it's important to like talk about what you remember and what it was like, like post Cory going into season six obviously from like the spin off of New York going into season six with the newbies, like how did you get there?

And what was that like?

It was terrible.

It was awful and I don't think it worked, and it was like it was really hard. I think it was so hard that I sort of like blocked it out. I'm not a big person for like blocked out memories, but like I just kind.

Of blocked that out, Like I totally blocked about it out.

It was just really really, really hard. It was like I think we thought originally that it was I mean, look, it's my own credit. We had to do something, and we had to once we probably talked about this, but like early on in the show, I would have preferred, probably wrongly, to not acknowledge time at all.

Right, right, Simpsons, it would sort of reset, right, Yeah.

Second was sort of like you second you have Rachel Berry be like I'm a sophomore, and then you're like, it's prom You're like locked into the earrow of time.

Since see we had you on that all of a sudden was it was never mentioned and then all of a sudden, we started like very specifically referencing time in such an odd way because it got stretched out over like a season and a half.

Yeah, graduation school, it was you.

It's like he would have just been like, you could have just made it.

We just didn't have to be that that final point on it, I thought, And then we just sort of did, and it made sense.

You don't want you.

We didn't want to watch you all turn thirty, although but also who cares, you know, like it wouldn't I don't think it would have mattered, but it sort of.

Like locked us into that.

So then Corey Diyes, the whole show artistically that we were setting up was in which he would sort of come in and become mister Shoe.

That was sort of like, well, okay.

And then it was we Then then it was sort of like, all right, we have to sort of like we don't want to lose these characters who are now like aging out of the high school, bring in a new cast. And it was just like that's just tough. It's just yeah, it's a show about this. I think this show is always going to be a show about a high school.

Yeah.

Second, it's not about a high school.

It just gets weird, right, Oh, it's a little bit like when did he cut her hair?

Right that they're like, oh my god, why do we ever cot her hair?

Like, Oh, I guess it is.

That show's just about like a teenage girl with like blonde, curly hair. The second you're like messed with the DNA that suddenly it's like, well now she's short curly hair.

People are like, what.

Show I'm not watching anymore?

So, which is the show didn't work at all? People still like loved our show. It would just ave us harder to I I had trouble with wrapping my head around it.

Yeah, did you think that like at the end, did you have an endgame for Finn in the show? Like did you think it would just kind of go on in this way where like Corey would just pop into the mister Shoes, you know shoes, and then like it would live on that way and then when Corey died, like that whole plan went down the pooper or was it?

Like, yeah, was it?

I forget?

I'm sure I'm sure Ryan had like a last see. I think I would have been like, I forget. I don't know what it is, but I seem to remember that he had some idea for like this is where that's how we stick the landing right by and large, Yeah, and you could have kept it in the school, but like still then then folded in new people. You know, we sort of tried to do that, and it was not for lack of like like everyone was great.

Who we brought oh yeah yeah.

Has gone on to do great things.

Like it was just you're like, oh, the car can't get out of like second year, I felt yeah, s artistically and then we had to sort of like I remember always being like we're really belaboring this, like what's going on it?

Yah know, what's this?

Like this back and forth between New York and Ohio. Yes, like oh it's just don't really shoe leathery and you're just like, oh, this is like it just became hard. The first two seasons of the show were like just like flew off the page, which is key, and then it just became harder after that, and then I guess yeah, like like yeah five was is that yeah?

Yes, yeah, just hard.

Yeah yeah, Cause you also like and we talked about this a lot, where like our emotional state going into this thing was also obviously just wasn't us on camera.

It affected every the hundreds of people that showed up to work every single day. And then you guys, before any of us ever showed up, had to get together to somehow like do some work and make this thing happen.

Wanted to be I mean partially part of me would want to be. Like it's like when a when a member of a band dies and the band going, it's almost always you want to be like, no, you kind of want to do the led Zeppelin thing. Yeah, it's

Like nope, not happening, yeh.

Like it's just and everybody's just different in that way.

So it was just it was weird in that sense.

That all that said, I think we did probably a pretty good job of like making it a watchable show and it was interesting a new cast whatever it was like, there was like to be had. There's probably things. I mean again, because I don't remember almost any of it, there are whole like characters that will be like.

Who's that now, don't worry, we didn't watched Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's just a function of the show being like suddenly, like the DNA just like totally changes. That said, there's probably like there's probably really funny, good quality stuff in there.

It was just it's just a different show.

Yeah.

No, it was really good, honestly, Like rewatching it, there were just so many moments where we were like, I think we have to rewatch, especially the early season five Beatles, Katie Gaga, end of Twerk, puppet Master, like all those really weird ones. We had to be like, hey, this is what we were all going through. Let's give everybody an effing break, like because it was so hard and there were really really great moments.

Especially towards this end of that.

The second part of the fifth season when we did like City of Angels, Beautiful one hundred, like they were all really great.

It just was different.

And then going to New York, Like, do you remember being in the room or like talking with Ryan and Brad about like making the switch to the I call it like the New York spin off of just being in solely in New York for the second half of season five.

Yeah.

Yeah, but I remember sort of feeling like every time like the move was like this is high school show. It was totally different, and you're thinking about different things, and it's like, in a way, it's too adult.

It's my critique of the show.

Early on, we should have kept the show less adult, like nobody should have boned down until like, way, make that the thing that we all are won, you know, like make it like.

They boned down. Can you believe it?

Yeah, Instead, it sort of became like then once we got into there, it was just sort of like like sort of college sex romp.

It was like, well, that's just weird.

And it just is it suddenly like doesn't quite fit the format, which is like Glee Club, which is by virtue of what it is like wants to be a little bit underdeveloped and like innocent in a way funny about it. Yeah, silly and sort of like childish. It is so, but once we were there, it was it was fine. There was like there were now also in this case, I was directing.

More and so when I directed out of the writer's room.

So season five is probably the one that I feel least attached to writing wise, because some for the first time, some of the episodes I didn't I didn't have a word in weird. So suddenly then you'd be watching a cut of something you'd be like, I don't know what, I don't know where they came up with that. But that's just my virtue of feeling so connected with the show. Early on, it wasn't that it was it was just like, oh yeah, this thing was Yeah, it was like quite

So Tina and Already, well we have.

A model the time you you were.

Just like you were in this like swinging London. I remember that.

I loved it. Yeah, Tina and Already were vying for.

Orion and in front of me and Rachel was and then we were also Already was kind of left out of this trio of Sam Blaine and Tina where we did like jump and jump in and the school like locking.

And called trio and it's about everyone graduating, but there's a fourth one graduating was me. So the whole episode which is like.

Hey, you guys, funny but it was great.

Yeah, and then got into New York. Yeah, Tina went to Brown.

And then.

Recur or recurring directer Jenna went to a recur Right, how how did season vie?

We were it was New York, so it was like, h Rachel goes to New York, she gets the role and funny girl. They open it, It gets great reviews. Then the guy comes for the reality show, and then we have Chris's episode in between there with the old Folks home, and then it ends with entitled Rachel Berry Product Project where she's yeah, going back.

Kurt Blaine, Rachel, Sam and Sam are all in New York and make a promise in Mercedes like Sam got his modeling gig. They're like, we're going to meet back here in six months. Everything's changing because Sam's like, I'm going back to McKinley, and that's when we see like McKinley again. I don't know He's like, I just wanted to get on the side of a bus and I did that, So I'm going to go back home now because I miss my people.

He goes to me the football coacht and then he's like looking through the.

Glee club door window and it's now a computer lab.

I know this sounds crazy, it actually was great.

And then they did POMPEII and Rachel broke the fourth wall on the very last scene. Do you remember she looks straight down the barrel of a camera, oh, which.

I don't think I've talked about on here. After we watched that, I did message Brad because he directed it, and I was sort of like, what what was that welcome? He was like, well, I don't really remember, but it's one of two things. He was like, we were always desperately trying to sort of reinvent the wheel because we've done so many musical numbers, like how can we do

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean the fans really took to it though, because if they felt like it was like Leah breaking in the fourth Wall as Rachel kind of being like because she looks up to the sky and then she looks at the camera and then she kind of walks off with a smile, and so there was this moment of like I'm okay. We're like I'm okay, I get that.

Yeah, yeah, you know, it works.

And the fans really really enjoyed that. And I thought it worked. I totally thought it worked. It was just so jarring when I watched it first, I was like.

I didn't remember much of that.

We didn't well, we were scared going into it because we you know, in our heads it's like one, two and three were like really solid or like four. But the fans were like, oh no, it's good, and we watch it and it's great. And then five remember even less as Ian also, and then six we were watching for the first time. Really yeah, fully for the first time.

Yeah.

Yeah, but going into season six, the fans were like, oh no, these new kids, these characters are amazing, and so far it's true. It's sort of what you said in the beginning about what the show is, where it's like it's a glee club and it's like it's janky, it doesn't really work. The characters are all over the place, come from different places, and that's what really happened with the season six kids, and I think so far why it's really enjoyable and successful in that way.

So how long are you? How far through six are you?

Half way?

Should we start talking about season six now?

Yeah?

Yeah, So I think it's actually when the show gets spectacular again. I loved it was so much fun and I think partly like I rank them one, two, six, three, four.

Five, Oh my god, I loved it because we didn't give out more. Yeah.

Yes, it feels like that a little bit.

Like when we were watching. I think throughout we were just so aware. It seems comical now, like we were so aware of like rating, So when you're like a network show, you're like the rating.

Well, we got moved to Fridays and nobody was watching it. Did that have an impact? Like did you know first of all that it was going to be thirteen episodes and that we're going to be on Fridays.

We I don't think we knew the day, but we were sort of like, ugh, this is probably the end.

So and I think it was just they again, this is the thing with network television.

They were probably like, we got to get this turkey off the air to put on one of our new development things, and then they would do that. I'm sure the thing that replaced our show at lower ratings than us, because it wasn't a show that was getting lower ratings. It was like network television was getting lower ratings.

That's why I could.

Go back into a time machine, yes and back and like knock on the door there and be like, hey, hey, don't blame us for like the ratings going down, the rates going down, is this shift in the landscape, Yeah, this is happening everywhere, And then it would be like what used to be.

You know, we would be.

Like, oh, we got a one we scored.

Now that would be like people were like whoa.

Right, So I thought I think part of the difference was that we were like, Okay, we've hit the end and we no longer felt the need to fight that fight and to do like fan service, which doesn't work when you're like Twitter lesbians are saying like we need to to do this, or like Tumblr thinks that we should do and you're just like no, no, no no.

When you do that, it doesn't work.

You drive yourself nuts a little bit, like you're just because.

They're not the ones that came up with the show. The shows and you Brad and Ryan have the DNA of this show, and so it's like any feeling off of what you The.

Season that was most successful was where we wrote all of it before anybody.

Saw it, so it was just like boom. We essentially like dropped.

It and then you're like, oh wow, there was no feedback, and the feedback loop.

Just did not help the show. I don't think.

But so then by the time of like season six, it was just like just very very fun. I just remember the hurt Locker, but I don't there's other stuff where we were just like, oh no, this is just like we just should have fun and enjoy the ride again.

And then is it still are we still in New York at all? Or it was all back and we're back?

Yes? I think Also that's just helped here we are you but you still you're back with the villain who's going to complicate everything.

You're back with like right Eye.

Young kids, and then and like characters that like the the the audience knows, and like it was just a much much easier thing and not having to do this show about college half the time, where you know, this is just like okay now, because what was good about the show is it like low low stakes?

Were high stakes?

Yes, it was like, oh my god, they I gotta I gotta go. The dad will think I'm I'm in their bathroom and they're gonna think I'm pooing the right amount of like the the you know, the everybody fighting for a Olive Garden gift certificate is the right amount.

Of steaks for like a show about high school, So like that helps.

It's suddenly the scale of what's happening, and then you can do funny things because in a high school, if you do something mildly ribald i e. Like Sultan pepa At, like a pep rally is going to be scandalous and funny. You know it's nice and it's sort of like happens to be Pg.

Thirteen.

So it's also like it's really funny. But also anybody could watch it, you wouldn't be like, yeah, it's a expression advice like that was just never gonna work with the show.

So I think that helped us.

And then it was just sort of also it was we didn't know. We're like, we just have to do like thirteen of these. We can like do it in our sleep. And then like how does it start? Do we know?

The Starwood loser like me? So she Rachel learns that the arts is been banished, so everybody comes back.

And we do.

The Rachel Barry project thing happens where is the worst pilot of all time, and so she gets canceled in many ways and then you know, goes back to Lima with her like tab Beteen her legs and learns that there is no glee Club anymore, and uses her money from the pilot to like restart the glee Club with Kurt Yep and Will's teaching vocal adrenaline coaching vocal adrenaline

I love it well, But.

I think this was the kind of that's what that's why the season was fun, That it was just sort of just a little bit like let's just have fun and you could just sort of Maybe it's because it was like that we felt like it was almost summer vacation or something or that like it was a substitute teacher and we were just sort of like letting to do or you were just like we had senioritists I think a little bit for.

Sure, and we just came through like the hardest year ever before.

Yeah yeah, I mean there's such a Scanner Darkly version of like and again it's like the the longevity of the show versus the tragedy of Corey Monty is dying is I don't mean to make those a one to one, but let's say he hadn't.

I mean, I just do think.

There's a world where that the show went for ten Yeah, yeah, yeahs it really could have. So it is interesting to talk about this other sort of like sort of like intense Plan.

B that so ended up being.

And I think probably seeing I think probably.

And again this is me I get. I get so down on the show because.

It's like in these ways because I was like on the inside of it. It's very well for me, I acknowledge it. Like anytime again, I think we've talked about this. Anytime you bring it up to like a civilian or somebody who just likes the show, they do not know what you're talking about.

Yeah, Like, well here's the thing. So like season five is a little bit weird.

I think that like the second half of the season.

Two, we were maybe a little bit hired.

Three didn't quite were, and they're just like you might as well just be speaking a different language, like you know, this show's good, So I like I need to always like remind myself like no, no, no, no, no, you don't have to be.

Hard on it. Yeah, it's also like a really it was on a good day. It's a hard show.

Yeah, just it's a miracle anything ended up film or on TV.

It's expensive, it's a lot of characters, music, it doesn't not a lot of stuff happens, a lot of personalities, a lot of personalities. Yeah, it's just like it's a miracle that it worked at all. Really low stakes kind of it's a miracle that it worked.

So it's like all all that saying.

That. Yeah, I think it by by the end, it was we were a little bit punch drunk, but it just ended up being like really really silly and really fun.

If do you think that shorter season acts. I think how it does now with most shows that are fewer episodes, where it does make it more focused or you're not having to fill twenty two episodes. Yes, like, oh we have thirteen like you said you do in your sleep, but we can also make each episode really exciting.

No, And I think there's a reason why, like those big orders have sort of like gone the way of the Dodo. They're just like harder, and it's like the model, I think a more successful model seems to with it.

With some exceptions like procedurals.

That you can watch out of order or whatever, but broadly it's just like, uh, you can kind of wrap your hat around. It's so hard, but it's not like impossible.

Especially for an hour long.

It's crazy to do twenty two.

It's just a real you have to work all year. You just don't ever stop. You just call yeah.

Yeah, So it's like so yes, I think that helped, and I think it didn't.

You didn't have to.

There were no her keys where I think there were in like not in one and two, maybe in three, four five. There were just a few where you'd be like, op, I was always just like we should put like a title card at the end.

That's just sort of like sorry, like this show is hard, like tune in next week.

Yeah, yeah, that one missed the mark a little bit.

Did you know that, Like when you were writing it, could you You're like, you finished the episode, You're like, hmmm, I'm not sure about this one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sometimes.

But sometimes you'd be surprised.

But sometimes when you're breaking it, you're just like, these are weird ideas. But then the weird idea is like really work. And that's the thing with the show like this that is a little bit weird, and it was just that was in the dna of it, like sort of swings and weird stuff that you're gonna have you're just gonna miss.

Sometimes I think.

Other shows that weren't going as fast or or had that were a little bit easier you could the It's almost like the quality control of this show was like less quality control, and they shot these amazing things, yes that that were really good that you couldn't you couldn't do.

On any other show.

And again, I think I think the narrative that I kept telling myself throughout in a in a in an environment where that the ratings kept persistently dwindling, that we kept saying like, ah, we're not doing it as well as we were before. And I don't think.

That's entirely fair.

I agree now like we're one hundred and something episodes in, so it's going to be different.

You're right, I would get.

I think I expressed my frustration with the pace and the exhaustion, often with some self self reference and sort of which I don't know quite why I did that, and I would do it a lot, and then I think I thought, I don't know it. Probably I would probably go back and change that and be like, you're

Show still is.

Got it?

I should have been I think we should have been more confident in the reality of the show, right and not rely on being like as gimmicky should My big thing is like we should never met. We should have never made like Quinn, like Lucy Cabussy, do you remember that?

You never forget it, But it's like a bit of a It really undermines the reality of that character.

It works for a moment, it's a great episode, but it's sort of if you watch after that, like Quin's her status totally changes, not.

Like Queen Bee anymore.

She never recovers for the rest of the show.

Right, No, she doesn't, Right.

And it was like, it's stuff like that that I think we would sort of do routinely that I now, like fifteen years later, i'd be like, oh, watch out for those like or be better at buying them back, or know that you're sort of like selling a character down the river. Maybe you because you're on the inside of it, you're not as attached too, but there is like there's a you're playing with the reality of a world that for like an audience is is still very real.

I do think though you. I don't think you were doing the self referential stuff, for example, too much. In season six. To me, it felt more confident because the

But in season six.

That was noticeable to me that it was like quick and like punchy, and that's why I like sort of sat up. I was like, oh, this is funny, Like

They like click in.

What was it like, what was the conversation about bringing a whole group of new kids in to the school in the last season, did it feel like, no, question.

Like that's not that much time. I feel like thirteen episodes and you're getting all propit kids on top of all of us who are already there.

I mean, just the fact of the way you said that like gave me a little bit of stomach ache.

Just now.

Back then I would have been like, who are they? Is it the Twins?

Yes, the Twins, Roderick, Jane who was originally going to be a Warbler and came over.

We've got uh.

And that's Madison the Twins, Spencer who's the out gay footballer. But like that's right, post post postmodern gay.

Yea yeah, yea, yeah yeah. I like Jane a lot.

She was fun and she was easy to write towards. Yeah, the Twins, I don't know that I wrote all that much.

They were funny, what they're great though, And roderg was like the new one with like the amazing poice and it was very brief, but like it gave Rachel and Kurt yes a glee club, right, and he gave them the vehicle for them to lead a glee club simultaneously together as you know co teachers, which I enjoyed, and they're very funny together.

Like you have to actually, this is what's been wild, Like no nobody you have to also like teach m it's a j school.

And they're very quickly falling into like shoe pattern where they're not really coming up with a lesson until the day of because they heard somebody say.

Something inspired writing something down the ball?

Did we do?

Is there more of doing this song where it's like I just wrote this song.

But it's like, fully, no, there there haven't been that many more original songs well that yes, yes, oh yes, there's fully the like and then Santana and Brittany were like, we'll show you how to do it, and the band's ready to go.

And that's classic.

But again, once it's sort of baked in that, you're like, well, this is sort of what the theme of the show is going to be.

That's sort of like how we do.

That's the show's structure. I probably felt less squeamish about doing that in this season than prior ones.

Sure it feels like that, and Jane has this incredible speech to Matt about about how he's never even acknowledged the presence of any of the band and they're just expected to know all of these songs. And she goes on this whole round and it's the only sort of like normal thing she ever says on the show, and everything she says to Matt, it's just like, yeah that actually yes, she was like a recap of all of his horrible things he's done the entirety of six seasons. It was very good.

It's really funny, very funny. She's still just she still slaps still got it. Season five, Season six, as you heard, was a joozy. I feel better that Ian doesn't remember as much. It doesn't make It makes me feel better about myself and how little that we remember.

Oh this whole experience is healing for.

This reasears Yeah, yeah no, but as you can see, it was clearly very traumatic and jarring for us in many many ways. And also like just the I don't know, it's insightful to hear like his take on and like not wanting to leave McKinley at all, like.

I were.

Like that was not our situation is fascinating.

His mindset of just being like This is a show, a show about a show, choir like show about a school. Don't leave the school. So it's fascinating. Anyway, there's a part two, y'all. Uh, there's more to talk about. Hurt Locker is a very very large part of that and we dive, we have to dive deep into that. So he'll be back next week with Part two. Ian Brennan, Stay tuned and.

That's what you really miss Thanks for listening, and follow us on Instagram at and That's what you really miss pod. Make sure to write us a review and leave us five stars. See you next time.