We just fell on our knees and we're like, "Lord, from now on, we want to follow You with all our hearts. We want to do everything." We had our Bible and we're like, "Lord, we want to do everything we see in this book, even if it makes us weird." And I had no idea what I was saying, how weird I was going to become.
And Dean always says, "It wasn't like any rockets went off or anything, but it was like this subtle feeling, one of those moments that like, okay, something has changed and things aren't going to be the same again." Tania, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. I've been wanting to do this for a long time, actually. We've interviewed your husband, Dean, and got his story, but never, never sat down and got your story on this podcast. And I really want to do that.
Just for some context, you were in the United States Army for a number of years and ultimately left that. And there's kind of a long story of the journey of trying to find a church community and work through these new convictions and things that you're learning. So we want to get that story today and just see where that takes us. So the first question I have for you, let's start at the beginning. Where were you born? Were you raised in a Christian home? Tell me a bit of your upbringing.
I was born in Irving, Texas, which is in Dallas County, which is sort of between Dallas-Fort Worth. Dallas-Fort Worth is like a big metroplex. So I was born and raised there. And I was born into a Christian home thanks to my mom. She was the backbone of-- very spiritually minded mom. And she and her sisters were all born again.
And so we were brought up in the Assemblies of God Church until like some point when I was in my young teens, we started going to maybe churches that said they were non-affiliated or non-denominational, but they still had sort of like that. Maybe you'd call it charismatic flair.
But I'm very thankful for that influence because I always tell people like as a child, I always marvel at this now, like they'd like lay hands on us and pray over us fervently and like anoint us with oil and pray like we cry out to the Lord. And I know I was meaning it with all my heart. Lord help me and come and bless me and guide my life, but didn't fully comprehend everything. But I think it's a neat thing that I had. And it was definitely not a perfect church growing up.
But it was definitely where I received my faith. I grew up with the Christian television on in my home a lot. Pat Robertson, 700 Club. That was a big thing for our family. Oh my, we just respected him so much. I even campaigned for him when he came through. I went into the campaign center and helped support him for president. He was running for president. That's right. I forget what year, 1986 maybe or somewhere around that time.
Yeah, because he's-- I think he's pretty-- He was a big deal back then. I mean, for my generation, we probably don't even know. We just really appreciated... He just was such an inspiration. So I saw testimonies all the time. People like Corrie Ten Boom. She's one of my favorite heroes of the faith, sort of modern day. But so many people like that telling one story after another after another of what the Lord did for them.
And so it gave me this amazing, almost egotistical idea as a little girl, like, God is real. And like the way in our churches, we were sort of taught name and claim it. And I had to take a few steps back and realize sometimes the cross wasn't something you could name and claim. Like, you didn't necessarily want what the Lord had in mind. But in essence, I think it gave me a great springboard of faith to say, yeah, the Lord is real. Why wouldn't anybody want him and what Jesus has done for us?
So at what age would have you made a profession of faith? Probably at the age of 15, made a profession of faith. And even before that, I have very many memories of just like crying out to God on my bed at night, you know, praying for my future husband, wherever he was or praying for. We had many financial hardships and praying that God would help us with our, I would pray he would provide for us miraculously.
And I just had a faith as a little girl, but it doesn't mean I wasn't very naughty sometimes too. But I definitely treasure that seedbed of faith I got growing up in those churches where there were a lot of good things in place like women being keepers at home and if they were married and just, you know, father being the head of the home and, you know, children should respect their parents. And I felt like we had a lot of, you know, we ate dinner around the table every night as a family.
And there were a lot of good things there that as I grew older, I recognized, well, I was privileged to have that. So I'm grateful for that now. So you have that upbringing. You know, you come to Christ, all of these things, somewhere along those lines though, you decide to enlist in the United States Army. Now what influenced that decision? Was that, was there a family history of that?
Was there, oh, I really love this country and I want to do this or was it, I mean, Texas, you know, some of the Texas side of things coming out. Like I just, what was the influence going on there? The biggest influence on that was my husband. I remember we were playing in a little Dixieland band at Six Flags Over Texas and a man came up to us and said, you know, you should think of joining the army band. You guys could be in the army band.
I was sort of like not interested and Dean really engaged with this man and was wanting to know more about it. He said, you know, you could get the army college fund and it's just a wonderful career. And I would think, why, at that time I thought, why would you want to join the army? But then I would, I remember going to visit Dean before we were married on the base and I sort of caught, it's almost like I got the little bug of patriotism.
I already had a little bit of that of my dad having come as a refugee to America at the age of 19 and being so grateful for the freedom we had in America. Where was he refugee from? Where was he a refugee from? Hungary. Oh, okay. So he grew up in a lot of turmoil and particularly as a young man seeing the Hungarian revolution happening and he'd lived not far outside of Budapest.
And yeah, he saw a lot of hard things like my grandfather and my great grandfather being taken to Siberian concentration camps. And thank goodness they were able to escape by cutting a hole in the bottom of a rail car and walking all the way back apparently or found their way back somehow. So this would have been 1940s, 50s, like after the war. Good question. I don't really know those details.
I just know that my dad says he remembers his dad kissing him goodbye before he left and he pretended to be asleep. And he said he was sort of sad. He was always sad until his dad came home that he didn't let him know. I was aware you were giving me a kiss goodbye. But yeah, then my grandma would sit and look out the window apparently praying every day for him to come home. Then one day they come walking home, he said he almost didn't recognize him.
It was the first time he had seen his dad with a beard. So it was like, wow, it was a big celebration for the whole, their community was really close. They still are sort of a close-knit community, so yeah. That's a wild story. So you have that in your family history and those are powerful stories. And so I can imagine, yeah, you come to America as a refugee from a situation like that. Very grateful. So you would have felt that for sure growing up. So there was definitely a flavor of that.
Patriotism, I value this country in what it stands for, freedom. Am I getting it about right? Absolutely. My dad always told me, don't ever take this country for granted because I know what it was like to see a lot of hard things that it doesn't always just go this nicely is what we're experiencing. And so it did definitely, I was grateful for it. They did give me an appreciation.
But it went to the next level when I married my husband because coming in as an army wife and just being so proud to be on that team. And we were very close-knit in Germany, kind of like a little America over there, those of us who were stationed in that area. At that time I was an army bandsman wife and we kind of like hung out together. A lot of us went to the same Baptist church and our youth leaders lived two stories above us. We had a neat relationship.
But that patriotic fervor, I definitely was very excited about that. I got that vision for that and it was very much something I believed in with all my heart. So yeah, it seemed to make sense to me at the time. So your husband would have enlisted before you? Did you enlist at the same time? Yes, that's correct.
He enlisted before we were married and then about, I don't know if it was about six months or more in, he came back to visit and asked me to marry him and then six months later we were married. So then it took two months for the army to cut orders for me to come with a military ID as a family member and then joined him there in Germany. But in less than a year from that time, I had decided to enlist myself and also joined, but I had to leave him for nine long months in order to do that.
That was the bad part of the deal. The nine months was just going through the initial initiation process, is that right? Well, yeah, basically, so first year you flown to basic training, which I was stationed to Fort Jackson, South Carolina. And that's two months. And there's often just a little bit of holding period before you start basic training and then maybe a little bit of holding period after you graduate.
Then I was sent to the US Army Element School of Music in Virginia Beach, or Norfolk, Virginia, where we trained with the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps, all except the Air Force, all the military bands trained there. So I was there for six months, but so all in all, it took nine months before I was actually brought back to my husband in Germany. But this is the 1980s we're talking here, right?
So Germany was divided, East/ West Germany, et cetera, the famous Berlin Wall and so forth, Iron Curtain. Now talk to me about that a little, because I'm removed enough from it. And I think our generation's kind of lost... My generation and younger has kind of lost touch of kind of how crazy the world was there for a couple decades with the divide between the USSR and the West and the arms race and the Cold War and all of these things. You're kind of close to the center of all of that, right?
Because Germany was this, at least on a map, that's where the dividing lines were. Did that feel strange or was it like this is normal life? It definitely felt strange visiting for my husband. I didn't go until the wall came down, but it definitely felt strange being aware of that, knowing how to affected my father and his family. My father was always afraid to go back and visit. He was afraid that it might endanger his family there in Hungary.
And so, yeah, I was aware of some of those strange things that seemed strange to me anyway. But after I joined the army and being in the army band there in Germany, I didn't really think of it as being anything to fear. Maybe I was clueless, but at the time it really didn't impact me a lot being there in the army band.
We had reforger where all the troops would come around and we'd all prepare how to defend an attack from Russia, but we all sort of would laugh about it like, "This is never going to happen." Maybe we were just little kids that didn't know better, but it just didn't really seem like an imminent threat or anything to us at the time. It seems to me like what you're describing is like you just had your normal life in a way, right? Right, exactly. Absolutely, yes.
And we really enjoyed being in the army band. For an army job, it's wonderful. You're doing as a musician what you love to do. We had a secondary job on the side. I was a band librarian and my husband was an armorer, which you probably heard that before But yeah, we loved it. We were kind of like a little family even just as a band, so had a good time together. Yeah, this is an interesting picture that you're painting.
I'm just trying to get my head around what this was like and what the context that you were experiencing. How long then were you a soldier in the United States Army? Just shy of three years. I would have fulfilled my three-year enlistment, but thankfully I was able to be released as honorably as a conscientious objector. So I was just shy of that, which was sort of hard for me because I felt like I don't want to be a quitter. And I wanted to be a good girl. I wanted to be faithful.
I wanted to do what I had sworn in my enlistment that I would do. So that was sort of hard. So yeah, talk to me about that. The process, well, I want to get into the bit of the process of what it takes to become a conscientious objector, the CO status. But before that, like what you're describing, it seems like you had a normal life. Things were fine. You enjoyed it. Why go and upset this nice life that you and your husband have? What changed? Definitely, it was a God thing.
I have no question about it. I think the first thing that you try to wonder what happened first. I look back at different things. There were Jehovah's Witnesses who would regularly come to our door. And at the time, so I'll back up a tiny bit, I ended up getting into the rock band with my husband. And we backslid in those days, being in the rock band, started playing clubs. And then you start missing church on Sunday because you're out late on Saturday night.
And besides, you want to practice on Sunday. And we started doing it on the side, not just in the army band. And I felt convicted. I knew I was like, I knew the Lord was sort of saying to me, you want to have one foot in the world and one foot with me, but you have to make a choice. And I remember telling Dean, these Jehovah's Witnesses, they'd come and sit at our table and we try and reason with them on the scriptures. And I said, they're going door to door with a lie.
And we have the truth and we're not really taking this seriously. So that was, Dean says that wasn't quite so influential in his moment of crisis or whatever. But for me, that was definitely a precursor to God working in my heart of convicting me of my being sort of lukewarm, not just sort of definitely being lukewarm and careless with my commitment to Christ. And so then I remember the fateful moment and maybe you've heard Dean talk about this, that we walked into a Stars and Stripes bookstore.
It's basically just at the PX, there's a usually a little news stand and they had books there. And there was a Christian book by the Keith Green's wife. He was the 1980s singer songwriter who also had a radical testimony of just trying to be obedient and follow Christ no matter what the cost. And his book by his wife compiled the book, wrote the book. It's called No Compromise and her name is Melody Green. And that book, Dean picked it up.
It's like this thick and it had a watercolor picture of Keith Green, like with a big afro on the front. It looks sort of funny. And Dean used to say, he said, I haven't read since I was a kid, you know, and he didn't even like reading as a kid. He hated it. Really? Oh, I wouldn't guess that now. He said the only thing I ever read was Artie the Smarty. I always thought it was so funny. But why did he think that book? Something about that book got his attention.
He must have read something about a man with a commitment to follow Christ regardless the cost. He picked it up. I remember that moment very clearly. We both do. And him looking at me saying, I just really want to buy this book. I want to read this book. And I was like, you'll never read that book. I said, but if it makes you happy, buy it. You know, it's okay. It's okay. Just buy it and take it home. But he read that book and he's been reading voraciously like a wild man ever since.
And that book was so influential in our lives. And it was just, yeah, just seeing another musician. So we had that in common and he had lived near us. I remembered as a little girl listening to Christian radio and hearing that moment we heard on the radio that he had died suddenly in a plane crash in East Texas. And I remember how it impacted me as a little girl. I had denial like, maybe we'll find out it's not true. You know, and so we were deeply touched.
We knew some of his music, you know, as a little girl, I knew his music, some of it. But I grew to know more of it after reading his book. And was deeply impacted by the testimony he and his wife had to be wanting to do anything for the kingdom of heaven's sake. And that really got into us. That was a very important thing the Lord brought into my husband's hands and deeply impacted us.
So that seems like a pivotal moment where it's like, okay, that's got you started taking at least some initial steps down a very different path than what you've been doing before. So then what happens next? So this gets you started, but tell me more of the steps of the process. Then the Holy Spirit starts convicting us very strongly to the point that we just finally one night on a band trip, we traveled all the time and had certain regular things we would do.
And every year we do this thing called fasching, which is sort of like a European Mardi Gras or something. And people kind of go wild dancing and drinking before Lent season. And it's very sad and sort of, yeah, just doesn't feel like a very godly season, you know. But during that time we were there playing and we went up to our motel room and we just fell on our knees and we're like, Lord, we from now on, we don't want, we want to follow you with all our hearts. We want to do everything.
We had our Bible. We're like, Lord, we want to do everything we see in this book, even if it makes us weird. And I had no idea what I was saying, how weird I was going to become. But it was, and you know, like Dean always says, it wasn't like any rockets went off or anything, but it was like this subtle feeling. One of those moments that like, okay, something has changed and things aren't going to be the same again. And so that was sort of a turning point.
And then it was just more and more conviction, you know, reading the scriptures in bed at night and my husband suddenly saying, whoa, I need you to hear this. Let me read this to you. He got to the Sermon on the Mount and he reads me one part of the passage, you know, probably Matthew 5. I don't know if you read all 5, 6, and 7, but I remember reading through it and Jesus saying, you know, to return good for evil and turn the other cheek and do good, go the extra mile.
And he finished it and he said, what do you think of that? And I said, well, it sounds pretty simple to me. And he said, yeah, but we're in the army. Like he was good at thinking that I was like, you know, not taking it very seriously. Like, well, this has serious implications if we really believe what he's saying here. Before that point, how much scripture studies, scripture reading would you say that you would have been doing? You know, I was raised with a good amount of scripture from my mom.
Like she was good at quoting scripture still is to this day. Very much more though, like, I don't know, Psalms and Proverbs and maybe certain other verses, but not a lot of Bible study at all. And for Dean, you know, I think we were just basically starting like with our Bibles open on our laps. And for the first time in my life, though, in a peculiar way, it was as though the Lord was speaking personally to both of us. And it was just amazing.
I know I hear sad stories where maybe one spouse goes through it without the other and it causes friction. But for us, it was like Jesus was speaking to both of us personally. And it was just like one thing would have to happen after another. And it was exciting, but scary because it had serious implications for our commitment as US soldiers. Yeah, like I think that's the part that wrestling with a little bit because like this is not on your horizons at all. It sounds like until this point.
Not at all. I had no idea this was about to happen. I mean, it's just crazy. And just something about that recommitment to Christ and being sorry that I had failed him, just going so lukewarm and not standing for him anymore. I was wanting to just be cool and be in a rock band and drink with my friends and do all these things and just not be very set apart for the Lord. I was convicted by that, that my failure.
Yeah. And instead of doing those things, you start going the other direction and reading your Bible and getting serious about what does Jesus want me to do here? Ooh, that must have been disorienting though. It was. It was. So yeah, so Dean's just looking at this and I'm the type of person I might have been able to leave it there and say, "Well, it's okay. The Lord will bless this." But it was at that time where it was heating up in the Middle East.
It was on the front pages of all those little newspapers we'd see there at the Stars and Stripes bookstores. And I think all of us were getting a little nervous, like, "What's about to happen here? This is a little scary." Yeah. So this would have been Berlin Wall or the Iron Curtain, you know, falls 1989, right? So y'all would have been in Germany for then? 1989, yeah. Yeah. So y'all would have been in Germany for that, which I think Dean was at the Wall. Or you were at the Wall.
We were both there. Oh. Oh. And with the other couple, Dawn and Rick Shirley who, most of our friends, we would share our new insight with them, our Christian friends, and they would be like totally not getting it. They were actually disappointed in us sometimes. And maybe they were saying things like, "Dean, you're asking questions Christians shouldn't be asking." And they didn't quite understand. And they were worried about us. They were thinking, "Oh, they're ruining their lives.
They're about to go off the rails here." But this one couple, they would sit and look at these verses with us and they said, "You're right. Jesus does say that. Now what are we going to do?" And so the four of us, it was kind of a blessing to have this other couple who we were already good friends with, pursue this journey together. Like does Jesus want us to really do this? And so we had gone to the Berlin Wall together with another guy and Martin Ripple was his name and oh, and Jeff Hall.
And we had a good time there. But it was, yeah, Dean says stark difference between before it had been the communist era and all the machine guns and concertina wire. And now it's like the wall's coming down. People are trying to batter it down, whether with their car or battering rams and shaking the hands through the wall, saying peace and brother. And yeah, we're like, "Wow, that really got a hold of our hearts too." I think for my husband, that was deeply impactful.
There's a lot of symbology in that. Okay, well, let me back up a little bit. Just the fact that you happened to be in Berlin at the time that this happened is kind of wild. That was amazing. For the 20th century, that's one of the significant events that happened. So for you all to witness that, that must have been formative. But there's also some symbolism there. The other side of that wall is the enemy. Exactly. And I guess, yeah, for America, it absolutely was.
And then you saw that barrier kind of disappear in front of your eyes. That must have done something to your thought process. It was definitely one another God thing. I remember snapping that shot of Dean on the front of our book and shaking hands. I haven't looked at this picture in a while. Your husband wrote a book, A Change of Allegiance, which we talked about when I interviewed him previously, but grasping through the wall and shaking hands with... Who was it on the other side? Do you know?
Maybe just a German soldier? I think he was in uniform. I think he was a soldier. So again, that's the enemy. That's the enemy. But my husband could correct me if I'm mistaken on that, but I believe he was a soldier. And there was definitely something happening that wasn't just between my husband and this man. But I feel like God was trying to get a lot of people's attention through this. And we definitely came away saying, "Wow, you mean yesterday I could have been called upon to kill this man.
And now he wants to shake my hand and be my friend." And the wall's coming down and we're thinking, "Didn't Jesus bring that wall down many, many years ago with his death on the cross?" Definitely there was something happening in our hearts through this little pivotal moment. Yeah, again, the layers of symbolism there is pretty heavy because how with just quick little things can change in the world of geopolitics, say.
And the line gets redrawn on a map and suddenly who you would have had to fight last week is now not the enemy anymore or is an ally even. It's crazy. Which this is a bit tangential, but the guy on this, where Dean's shaking his hand, loved to know where he is today. Wouldn't that be something? That was literally going through my mind right now. Wouldn't you love to find him? Yeah, how that story ends.
And to think, "Oh, how different though those stories could have ended where there maybe could have been a conflict and that would have been the enemy." Anyway, so that's context of what is going through your mind. You're doing a lot of studies through scripture. You're reanalyzing a lot of your belief systems. The wall has come down. So that's getting you thinking about a lot of stuff. The Middle East is starting to get kind of crazy at this point, right?
I'm guessing you're going for it, right, Saddam Hussein and all of this. That would have been 1991, right? Yep, a little before that. Our band was shifted from our normal duties to... They always told us, "You're a soldier first. Never forget it." So we put the flutes and tubas down and we were sent to Ramstein Air Base to ship missiles to Iraq.
But at that time, we four who were considering becoming conscientious objectors, we were just like, "We can't ship missiles to Iraq until we determine whether this is actually okay or not." And I say, I believe at that time we would have already initiated the request to become conscientious objectors. So we submitted a form and we were able to initiate that process, which took eight long months or maybe it was nine, eight or nine long months.
Yeah. But during that process, did you still have to perform duties like packaging up missiles that'd be used in a manner that obviously you're running into convictions that says, "I can't do that," right? Yeah. Luckily in our country, we do provide an out for people with a crisis of conscience. Now, if they would have determined in all of their investigation, you have a court hearing, you go to a psychologist or psychiatrist, I forget how.
And you have your friends who are called to witness about your life. Let's say you write a long paper and it's all sent to the Pentagon. If looking through all of that file, they would have determined, "I had enlisted fraudulently. I probably might have gone to jail." But if you do have a sincere crisis of conscience, there is provision for a person in that, but they do have to follow the protocol to determine whether you're sincere.
So luckily we had a wonderful counselor who was able to help us with that. His name was Andre Gingerich Stoner, and he and his wife were stationed there by Mennonite Central Committee, I believe. And they were there for people like us. And my husband sent a letter to Hearald Press, who sent a letter to...
Somehow got to one place to another until they put us in contact with him and his wife, Kathy, and they were very helpful in helping us know what the regulations are, what the laws are surrounding conscientious objector status, and particularly in between time where you feel very vulnerable. Well, yeah. Well, and that's where I want to drill into this a little bit, where what you were describing before, it wasn't like you were having a terrible time. You're doing what you enjoyed.
You have friends. This is your world. It's part of your life. And I would also say, I'm sure we'll see this in the comments and whatever, people will probably be like, "Oh my, come on, you were in the army band, big deal. Just finish through with your enlistment and just leave like that. Why did you go through this CO process and why make a big to-do over this? It's really not a big deal. It's not like they were asking you to go kill people." Because at the core of it, that's the big question.
Where Jesus says, "You have to love your enemy." Well you can't love someone if you shoot them right. Yeah, absolutely. So talk to me about that. Your convictions must have been pretty serious to say, "No, we're still going to go through with this process." Why? Yeah. Why rock the boat? I think there was something inside of my husband in particular that helped keep us strong that it's either right or wrong. There's no middle ground.
If Jesus says, "Don't kill," something is very wrong on one side or the other that's just like, you know, and incidentally, soon after we were released as conscientious objectors, our unit was shipped to Iraq. So we went from shipping missiles to I don't know what they did there, but it's all part of the support effort for the war.
And I was so thankful I didn't have to participate in that bloodshed, which, you know, again, maybe not everyone's going to see that, but with the, you know, seeing what Jesus has shown me, you know, was something I needed to be faithful and just... And again, my husband helped us, I think. Having the other couple there, Dawn and Rick Shirley, that just strengthened us to have, you know, fellow people with us saying, "No, we need to stand strong. We need to be willing to go to jail for this."
Because yeah, there's no middle ground. It's either right or it's wrong. And so... And so you would have come to the position that being part of the US military industrial complex, whatever you want to call it, in any way would have been considered... I just can't do that. Even though your role wasn't a combat role, at least when you started the paperwork. Yeah, at least when you started the paperwork. Now, maybe that would have changed later. Am I getting that about right?
Well, and here's the thing. It's like, I realize there might be other people out there who don't agree with Jesus' teachings or whatever, but if you are someone who does see that, I would find everything in my power to both be a law abiding citizen, but hopefully not have to help in the war effort. Maybe help as a medic. Like, I do want to show that we're also being willing to lay our lives down and serve our time where maybe we're asked, maybe we're needed for a draft or whatever as Christians.
But to do the most we can to say, "I'm opposed to the bloodshed and Jesus says not to kill. I'd be willing to die for my faith, but I also want to, the best of my ability, also be willing to do my time, so to speak, or some other support role." So it's like, yeah, I don't want to have to support the greater killing institution.
I realize I'm of a different kingdom, but I think there's something about being respectful and being willing to serve our time as Anabaptists, not to just live back and enjoy the liberties without it ever costing us anything. I think that is an important piece because I've heard different friends and people say, "Well, it's really easy for you to sit here in your comfortable, safe country and criticize the military, and I could never be a part of it."
And to an extent, I do see what they're saying, but I think your point there is also really important. There are other ways we can serve our communities, the people around us that are obviously not part of the war, things like that. I think that's an important piece. And so that would have been some of what you all were wrestling with as well, right? We're trying to figure our way through on that.
What's the right way to be respectful and show good conscience, but also know that we have to serve Christ first and He has a better way. And you came to the belief that Christ would not have packaged missiles for Iraq to be used against other humans, basically, to get it really real and to your specific situation. Absolutely. My husband always says, "Jesus gave us what He feels is the blueprint for humanity." It's just a great plan. It promotes life. It values every human being.
It doesn't need to be on the shifting stands of politics or greed or lines in the sand like we're all human and having to be divided by cultures or nationalities is sad. So you go through this CO process, conscientious objecter process, which I want to put an aside in here and say it's pretty phenomenal that the American government allows for that. It really is. It used to not, by the way. During World War I, there was a lot of Mennonites,/Amish, things like that.
that got called up in the draft. "We can't kill." It's against... Well, there was no provision for that. I mean, they were horribly treated in many cases. And then when World War II came, a lot of that changed, which I think we can all be very thankful for that. Yes, very. It's part of why my dad was so grateful for some things we have in America that it really are a great blessing. So you go through that process. I mean, apparently they accepted your papers and let you go. Yes, they did.
In fact, all four of us. And my husband always tells the story because it was an amazing story. But so like the man who had done our court trial, he finally shows up at the man hall and we're called up to a small little office and we come to attention and salute and he puts us at ease and... which is a military... like you relax. And we saw the four manila envelopes sitting on the desk and he says, "Well, I have the results of your conscientious objector appeals or whatever."
But before I tell you the results, I'd just like to give you one more chance to... You guys are good kids, like basically. I don't know if he called us. You're good soldiers. Everyone's spoken well of you. We're really appreciated here. It's not too late. We can just sort of pretend this never happened. We'll just put these away and you can just go on doing what you love doing and no one's going to worry about it. I just want to give you that offer.
And we all just sort of looked at each other and Dean spoke for all of us and said, "No, sir, we feel very strongly regardless of the consequences that we need to proceed, but thank you." So then he let us know, "Well, I'll let you know you've all been approved for conscientious objector status with honorable discharges," which we were just so elated and relieved. But then he let us know, he's like, "But wait," he's like, "There's something I need to tell you."
He sort of like whispering and he said, "I too now am leaving the army for the very same reasons." And we're like, "Wow." We just wanted to sit there and talk for hours, but the meeting ended and he had to let us go. He was probably, I wonder if he was nervous about letting us know he agreed with us and that he was doing the same thing we were doing. And yeah, it was one of those moments of just, "Wow, Lord, this is amazing." Okay, I have to ask, where did he end up? How does that story end up?
We went to try and find him one day because we knew just what base he was living on, but we couldn't find him. Do you have a name? I don't even remember. I'm sure the name is in the file. I could go back and look at the file. He could try to pull your file, your military file and track him down. Amazing to find him. It would be so amazing. Wow. Yeah. Well, maybe he's listening to this and he can send us an email or something.
Oh, wouldn't that be amazing? I would love to know how that... ...what changed his mind? Where was his story? What happened there? I would love to know that story. So that was just a gift from God to encourage us that not only are you not weird, you're not alone. We don't know. Did he already have something in his heart before he spoke with us or did this happen after hearing each four of our testimony? He was the one who tried us in court. He's the one that heard all the witnesses.
So yeah, I would love to know that story someday. Lord willing maybe. Man, that's really something though. So okay, so you get your honorable discharge and now that had to have felt unsettling because it's like you have your life, this is how things work, we're comfortable here and now it's like, what do we do now? So talk to me about that process of trying to get back on your feet, so to speak, trying to find, hey, where do we go to church now? Where do we live now?
That whole process, I'm sure it's a long story and I'm sure there's lots of pieces, but I like to touch on that a little bit because I know there are people that listen to this podcast that are in that process right now. Where they're like, hey, they've changed some things of how they view scripture or they're getting serious about their faith and they don't want to be just passive about it. Where do I go to church now? Where's my church community? That's a hard one. So what happened then?
What was your journey? Probably one of the hardest parts of our journey because we first went to our pastor and asked him about these things and he seemed extremely... I don't know how we came across because in my heart, I didn't want to come, I was really praying he was going to enlighten us because I loved my job, I loved living in Germany, I just didn't want to leave. I respect so many people who are Christians, they're believers, I know they're sincere, but they don't see these things.
So surely we must be wrong. I thought maybe he'd enlighten the path a little better so we could see clearly how it all works together. But he was more defensive in saying, you're not going to persuade me, you're not going to change my mind. And then he ended by saying, perhaps you'd be more comfortable worshiping elsewhere. So that felt so hard. That was really, really painful.
But we ended up, we had had a local bookstore that had gone out of business and that man had bought lots of radical books, like by lots of Mennonites, he had Foxe's Book of Martyrs, Martyrs Mirror, he had lots of Anabaptist books and lots of people like Rich, who was it, the Rich Christians in the Age of Hunger? What's his name? I forget. I don't know. That's before my time.
All these amazing books that make you think about your real life application and Jesus's teachings and how are we really lining up with those? And they were just good food for thought, very challenging. And so, okay, he sold his whole inventory to the local Christian bookstore. And we went in and feasted. We bought so many books. And then we start going to the owner and said, we are so excited. And he was like, wait a minute, I don't agree with any of that.
And he shoved a video in our hands about Romans 13 and hoping we would understand the way better. But Romans 13, when I see it now in the entire kingdom understanding, it does make perfect sense, but I still come out on the same place. It's no longer this, oh, how does that fit with, it makes perfect sense. Or what.. our calling in is in a different kingdom. But you definitely had, it sounds like you definitely had people along this process that were trying to dissuade you. Oh, yes.
It was like, hey, you're reading that wrong. You're going off the tracks. Yeah. And definitely our friends and family, yes, they were concerned about us. They cared about us. They thought we were going off the deep end. Yeah, of course. And it's kind of like, just don't rock the boat. Yeah, just be normal. That's kind of where I was like, well, I mean, you could just stay in it a little longer, you know, and finish down your enlistment and just let it go.
But I'm glad you explained that because I'm sure a lot of people will say that and, or, you know, leave a comment or whatever. But there's a piece here where I think it is important if, you know, you're reading scripture say, and you truly believe this is what Christ wants you to do. It seems like what the case you're making is, you need to do it. Even if people are like, that's crazy, you really shouldn't do that. Yeah. And there were moments you wondered if we were crazy.
And we did wonder if we should, you know, take a few steps back. But what was amazing... God providing all these books, we're reading the early church and we're reading. I remember finding David Bercot's book. Will the Real Heretics. Yes. I remember the moment I picked it up, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up. I turn over, I read the back. I called Dean over. I'm like, come here. You've got to hear this. You're kidding. I remember chapters like, Is Right and Wrong a
Matter of Culture? or Was There a Faith Once For All Delivered, basically is what... and then hearing about the early church who would have walked and talked with the apostles. And they would have taken the words of Christ like a child, like if he says, love your enemies, you should love your enemies. If he says that you should not divorce or even worse divorce and remarry, then we should try everything not to.
And you know, don't sue your brother and even go the extra mile and don't just love your brother but love your enemy. You know that there's power in loving your enemy so you'd be children of your father in heaven. And so we found our greatest, our greatest fellowship was with people who had been dead for hundreds of years, except finding David Bercot's book. It was like, and then some of these modern Anabaptist writers from all different stripes from very liberal to very conservative.
I'm so confused because this is way before the days of like ebooks and audiobooks and stuff. So like physically that David Bercot's book had to get over there somehow. And then you, it's the randomness of... Paul Pavao, that was his name. Oh my. He was the one, he had gone to our Baptist church. He had been in the Air Force. And his bookstore had been in a basement. I guess it didn't do too well. I don't know.
When he left, he sold everything to the local, all of his inventory went to that local Christian bookstore. But I felt like it was so providential, like the Lord feeding us manna in the wilderness. That's wild. Such a blessing. Yeah. Because like we, of course, interviewed David a number of times, you know, on this. Every time I'm with him, I continue to be amazed how far that book went around the world.
And like how it does feel, you all were on an interesting journey that was, I'm sure new, fresh, overwhelming, confusing, you know, and trying to find your way through. And collecting some resources along the way that really helped you. I think that's an important piece too. Because it'd be hard to probably just stick with this on your own. It would have. That was definitely a major component. And we just thought, okay, as soon as we get out, we've got to meet David Bercot.
We got to go find him. That's what we called him. Then when we met him, we found out why he prefers to pronounce it (Bur-soh). But yeah, it was just like, God, we were really scared. I remember we were very ignorant too. We did not know. So like we're reading our Bibles and it wasn't just non-resistance. I'm finding where it says that a woman should cover her head. I don't understand everything, but it seems like even at that time, maybe we had found a book called Demons in the Church.
They've now changed it to Sunset of the Western Church or something like that. And that book addressed the head covering and as a protection from the spiritual, like the wicked hosts in high places. That's the way I remember it. It's been many years. But initially, I just saw that verse and I was like, Lord, I told you I want to do everything I see. So I don't remember whether I'd seen anything else in the world about that. I didn't know about Amish.
I mean, I must have known about them, but I was particularly ignorant. My husband may not have been quite so ignorant, but really knowing about Amish and Mennonites and their testimony or their witness of faith or didn't really know anything in the world like that. So I read the Bible and so before we pray, I go run to the kitchen and get, I always say my ducky dish towel. Back then in the 80s, we had duckies and ribbons, little checkers, so tacky. And I would put that on my head and I'd tease.
I look back and sometimes I'd be in our, like we found a small group to worship with and I'd have my shorts on and go get my dish towel. Didn't understand like modesty and what that looked like or, you know, application, a practical application or even differences in God's desire for difference in women and women dress. And you know, like that's something that's in our Bible, but I know it's a sensitive topic, especially in today's world.
And it's not something I would say, okay, people are going to hell if they don't get this, but there is something to be studied and seek to understand, What's God's heart? If a man dresses like a woman, it's an abomination. Or a woman dresses like a man. It's not that we want to condemn people, but we want to know what is God's heart. So that was just the head covering thing was one of many things that we're like, okay, we should do this.
But we were like, we'll never find anyone in the world who agrees with these things. But we went to meet David Bercot, or Dean did. I was working when we got out of the army and he went and met him and David was like, you know, we're starting a church and guess who he's starting a church with? Paul Pavao, the man who sold out the Christian bookstores. So Paul moved in, he had gotten out into California, which I believe was his home state. He and his wife, Lorie, they had no children yet.
They moved to Texas and we all converged on the scene with a few others and started Tyler Early Christian Fellowship. Wow. So yeah, there's, so you ended up back in Texas then after, after Germany, you get out of the army. When you get of the army, you're technically sent back to the army to your home state. You always have a home state where you join. And even though I joined from Germany, my home state was still considered Texas. So we were both sent back there.
That makes more sense because I kind of wondered like, how did you end up in Texas then? Um, so you end up in Texas and that's, and that's probably, if I'm getting this right, part of a long, probably a slow circuitous, maybe a bit confusing sometimes, process of just learning and learning and learning and, trying to parse out how do we do this thing called Christianity? You know, how are we supposed to live? Um, yeah. Is there more you want to say on that?
Like I think maybe just to add a bit more to that, I think the tendency is easy to have when someone comes to the faith or whatever that waboom, they're just going to get everything. And it seems like the reality is it's years often of processing through what does Christ want me to do? How should I live? You know, how does this affect my day to day and all of those things? Yeah. Speak on that issue.
Still in that process, I'm still trying to learn how to say it better or trying to learn what the right way is. What are the non-negotiables and how can I be gracious to everyone but also have salt within myself. But at the end of the day, like Jesus said, peace with one another and I'm a people pleaser by nature and I like to, you know, gather people together and be on a team. But yeah, just trying to find my way through of like, when does Jesus want me to stand up for something?
And when does he want me to just stand firm, but still be very loving and gracious and welcoming and you know, inviting the dialogue, you know, a healthy dialogue, hopefully. But that's always part of the challenge. But okay. That's really good. Like, do you want to speak a bit as well... We've kind of been hitting this as we've been going along. Absolutely. ...but why you believe it is important to integrate into a church community? Yeah. Yeah. Talk to me about that.
Well, I am just so grateful. The Lord didn't just sort of, sort of abandon us there by ourselves in the beginning of that. I always tell David and Deborah, I tremble when I think what could have become of us if we didn't have David and Deborah there in particular, like God used all the many members of the body that he sent. We had a lot of people coming through. We had some interesting stories to tell of our years, but we had hard times and some wonderful times.
But I will say during those times, God continued to majorly convict and shape and mold us and prepare us for future things. And I'm so grateful, like David and Deborah brought us into their home. All of us, like we were a motley crew, our whole church, and we met in his house. And they just welcomed us into their home. They fed us. They bore along with us. And they answered questions.
We had wonderful Easter services where we'd spend the night together as a church and we'd have prayer partner times where we'd go and pray. And we'd maybe there'd be baptisms in the morning and things like that. It was very, very special years. And I'm so grateful. And he's continued to offer that discipleship and counsel. And I'm so grateful.
And then no matter where God has had us, then God's brought other men and women along who've been able to encourage us in the faith and help us stand strong when we're being tested or questioning things. It's just been such a gift. And I will say, like there is definitely some kind of a protection there. Seems like spiritually, I know the Bible talks about those, like the principalities of wicked, you know, they're like, principalities govern things, you know?
So like, I think about how that seems like there's some liberty given to them to corrupt and cause trouble in the world. But yet they're also angelic principalities, it seems. I think about that and I think, well, there does seem to be some sort of a protection in daily church life and, you know, sort of being a witness of Christ and there's power in that. I think it's, yeah, I feel like it's protected us both spiritually and even physically. I feel like it's kept us on the path.
It's helped, or it's helped us to try to stay on the path. I can't say, "Oh, I've perfectly been on the path. Thank goodness. Oh my, look at me." But I'm so grateful for both the men and women who've gone before us in history that we can read their stories, we can see testimonies like Corrie Ten Boom of people just being willing to give their lives, for the Lord and no matter the cost.
And then modern day people just, even if it's the people serving us the water on Sunday or, providing the baby meals when you've had a baby or that help you need it as a mommy and just all those little hidden workers who make up the body of Christ. I'm very grateful. I feel we all need that. We weren't meant to be alone.
And Jesus needed us to continue to live that example that he lived, coming together, fellowshiping together, being witnesses of him praising him in song and reading the word, teaching the word and being discipled and making disciples, evangelizing-- all of those good things. Share whatever you like. You don't have to share much, but I know there's lots of people that listen to this podcast and are like, "Oh, you know, I'd like to kind of check this out."
Or, "Oh, I'm intrigued by these ways of believing." But then when they actually, you know, start getting into it, it's like, "Whoa, that's confusing. I don't understand that." Maybe tell us a bit about that and also why you continued on with the process to see it through. The first thing that comes to my mind is that Jesus promises, "If we seek, we will find. If we're hungry and thirsty for righteousness, we will be satisfied."
Deep in my heart, I had a hunger and a thirst, and that's what helped me when I felt humiliated. I felt like maybe we were crazy. I felt like maybe we were getting off, but at the end of the day, I wanted what was right. And if you find yourself in that place today, Jesus will also satisfy that thirst for righteousness. He'll satisfy the questions.
And so in that though, I have funny stories of like my first visits to the Bercot's and my wardrobe didn't feel very godly when I... I guess they are already further along in their path of.... they had longer skirts and I just remember feeling very like my knees were showing and I'd pull my skirt down as far as I could. And they were so loving and gracious.
It was like they didn't notice anything whatsoever, but I felt like, okay, that was the first family in real life I'd ever seen that was trying to be different than the world. They were willing to be different than everyone else to try and... The Bible says women ought to be modest. They had to dress like women. And what does that look like in today's age where, yes, you could have modest pants, but is that the best way? I mean, in many ways, it could be an okay thing.
I don't want to say it's, you know, you're going to go to hell... My mom wears pants and she's a very godly woman. But I appreciate when we try... I always say we get the privilege to the very best of our ability, help each other, try to do what did Jesus want his... When we pray, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." I think of that throne room. They're modest. They're shielding their faces and they're crying, "Holy, holy, holy," and I know I'm so far from that.
But I want to continue to have that journey the rest of my life to say, "How do I bring that kingdom here?" It's probably definitely just a simple application and not something very complicated because Jesus came lowly and surprising everyone, not having fancy clothes. He wasn't dressed like a king and he rode a baby donkey into town. And you know, that was... He was trying to teach us something in that. So I love that. I love that about my Lord. I have many stories.
I basically felt... I felt the need to... I got rid of my makeup. I got rid of all my jewelry. I had gotten rid of my wedding ring when I was in Germany because... I didn't get rid of it. I put it away, stopped wearing it because I wanted to be a missionary. I imagined myself going to Africa and I saw an inconsistency telling someone who was impoverished, go in peace, be warmed and be filled.
When I felt like I had this big diamond, he had given me a beautiful one carat oval when we were married and it seemed inconsistent. So without knowing anyone or anything, I just stopped wearing that. I still worth the skinny little wedding band that went with it. And it wasn't until my Charity years that we took that off. We had not worried about that for our 10 years with David and Deborah and I had no problem with that. But yes, there was something about that.
Just having to get rid of everything, feeling like... We were both in college when we got out of the army and I remember going to school with the only dress I had that Heather Bercot let me borrow. It was the only thing I felt was modest. I remember these two guys whispering in the sociology class, "That girl wears the same dress every day." Okay, so I'm ashamed to say I basically left in tears and went back to our little dorm apartment. And I was like, "Lord, I'm not strong enough to do this."
I felt so ugly. I just think it's a miracle that I can go around today not having mascara and all of that. And I don't want to condemn anybody who does, but I feel like for me, I feel like God has set me free that I don't have to worry about it. But I don't want to say that someone who does wear it is going to hell, but I feel like it's beautiful. Deborah would tell me, "Oh, you're beautiful."
And she helped me to feel beautiful when I didn't feel very beautiful, but she would also highlight the outside is dying, but the inside is being renewed every day. And that was more what my focus should be. So that was something I appreciate about my journey, but I realize not everybody would see it that way. I wouldn't want to condemn somebody again for... Because that's a hard thing in our day and age, even for Anabaptist women. But I feel like it's a wonderful way to go.
It sounds like you're going through a real process of formation, I think. Exactly. Building new habits. Absolutely. It's like this... Yeah. A rebuilding process or a building process you're going through. Maybe forging might be a better way. Yeah. That was constantly happening. I remember I had once tied an apron around my waist in Deborah's kitchen. I found it in her drawer and a sister came up behind me at church and said, "Church was David and Deborah Bercot's house."
But she came up and said, "Excuse me, sister. Are you aware you're girded about the waist?" I felt as though I'd been discovered naked in the kitchen. Sheepishly took the apron off thinking, "I remember just feeling so exasperated, like, Lord, I want to do what's right with all my heart if I can just figure out what right is." I think when you are trying to follow the Lord, what I would encourage people, be prepared for a fight.
The enemy is not going to want you to have a hunger and thirst for righteousness. He's not going to want you to have a longing to want to please Christ, even if it makes you different from some of your fellow believers and people that you feel have passed you up in the faith. But we still have to be willing to, if we are willing to all, just do the best we can to interpret and live out what we see. At the end of the day, Jesus is going to have his prayer answered that we all may be one.
We can have long-suffering in the meantime. We can be gracious. We can believe the best for each other and esteem each other higher. But in the meantime, still be willing to be different for Christ. But no, the enemy is not going to take it laying down. You're going to be probably having a battle, but don't fear it because the Lord has brought me through so many hard things that the enemy tried to usurp or stop or interfere with that the Lord brought me through.
But I realize it's good to give that little bit of a warning. You might encounter some difficulty as well, but don't let it hinder you. Just know if you persevere, you'll start seeing the miraculous on your behalf. It's this concept of it's not going to be easy necessarily, right? It's not like you're reading your Bible and suddenly angels start singing and it's like, "Wow, this is the right way to go." And bingo, everything's great and life just worked out.
But it is a long process because somewhere along the way, you realize you have all these high ideals, but behind closed doors, you're failing at moments where I'm like... I know it still happens today. And I will say God has definitely made me stronger and I've grown stronger. Some new Christian muscles I didn't have before, but I'm still very much a work in process. I'm glad you used that word "ideals" because I'm guessing, but when you're in a situation like you were in, right?
And you start learning some things like, "Oh, we need to change this and this and this," whatever. And then you start looking to these other groups like, "Ah, maybe that's it." And then you could have these ideals of, "Oh, great. If we can just be like that, we'll be good. It'll be great." Absolutely. This was our trajectory. I hear a lot of people say this. We're builders.
We wanted to do it together, but you just have to have the mentality, like let the Lord build the church and do the best you can to be a humble little member in it and be, "What's my role here? How can I be a builder? How can I be an encourager, a support?" Because that is something when someone realizes that, "Oh, the way I was living or the way I was reading scripture, I now don't believe that way anymore. I've changed that belief system." Then it can be like, "Ah, now we've got it."
And this ideal of, "We've got it sorted now," is a pretty easy place to get into. I don't know. I just had a lot of interactions where that was the case. And then you kind of disillusion because at the end of the day, the church still is full of people and we can be a little selfish or not kind sometimes. And it gets complicated. You're so wise for your age, Reagan. I've just talked to a lot of people.
You're just right on your point. But we get it. Yeah. We hear from different people who listen to this podcast and they're making some changes and they really believe it. And that's wonderful. But at the same time, it can be easy to idealize, "Oh, okay. If we're just like that, everything will be fine." And I think what you're saying is like, "Well, don't give up on the convictions, but also acknowledge it's going to be hard." That's right.
And know that there may be different representation and different thoughts and different practice and different... Yeah. And be okay with that so far as being gracious with each other. But also not shy away. My personality type is to shy away from when I feel like it's the ultimate right thing. Because I want to be gracious to maybe someone who doesn't see it like me or I don't want someone to feel like I've rejected them because they don't see it like me.
And I realize that a lot of great men and women have gone before us who gave their very lives who, yeah, they maybe didn't see everything the way we did. And so at the end of the day, I always think about how we see through a glass darkly at this time in life. But at the same time, I always say we get the privilege every day to try to do the very best we can to say, "Lord, oh, Lord, help me be hungry and thirsty for righteousness. Help me not lose that. Help me to please You.
Help me to do what You need. Help me fulfill all my purpose like the Psalms say, 'May you fulfill all your purpose'" The Lord has purposes He wants fulfilled for His glory in each one of us. And we don't know. I won't know my brothers' or my sisters' role. I just need to worry about mine. You know, and just try to not be discouraged if we don't see it exactly. But I wish for that unity all the time.
And then the idealism, yeah, that's we've had to have a lot of balloons deflated and sails deflated along the way. Just like, okay. Like in the Pilgrim's Progress, "Is this the bliss you spoke of?" You know, like, this is not exactly what I expected. It's harder than, you know, than we thought. Yeah, it is. It is. More complicated. It is. Amen. That's for sure.
So for, just to wrap this whole package down to a final question here, for anyone listening to this that perhaps is on a similar journey that you went through or is processing through and what does Jesus want me to do? And maybe I need to make some changes in things I believe or the way I live. What would you say to those people that are in that process right now and wrestling through those questions and trying to find their way? What would you say to them?
I would say walk and talk with Jesus, ask Him, and then also dare to believe big dreams, like dream big dreams and dare to believe God can do it because I do believe there's something about, you know, "Oh ye of little faith."
And I have been still today sometimes of little faith, but just daring to believe that the Lord can provide every need and abundance of whether it's fellowship, whether it's answers for your questions and just keep tapping into His grace, keep knocking being that importunate widow or the persistent widow. That's the modern version is better word, persistent widow that keeps knocking and the Lord says, hey, I'm not going to turn you away.
And then He says, if we ask for wisdom, He'll give it and not hold back, you know? And so just keep knocking, keep asking, be that persistent widow and He will, He will show you, He will bring miraculous things your way and He will bring fellowship. He will feed you in desert places and probably
surpass your wildest dream. Fellowship and the joy in that and how it just grows the more you get to know God's people and seeing God working all over the world-- It's just such an inspiration and yeah, He's a good father, a good provider and keep asking Him and don't be afraid to be persistent. That's I think my most important point because he hears the whisper of a prayer even before we call and He cares. I love that. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story today, Tania.
Oh, it was my pleasure, Reagan. Thank you so much. Yeah, I've really enjoyed this. Been wanting to do this for a long time. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this episode with Tania. She referred to her husband Dean's story in this episode and we interviewed him and got that story as well, which you can find linked down below. Thanks again for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.