But sometimes, if our focus is simply on, being comfortable or, getting this problem solved. We can lose sight of that bigger picture and our responsibility and calling to bring glory to him through our interactions. happy to be here with John Coblentz. recording a few episodes this morning, this one and a couple others to be released later. Yeah. John, you want to just give a very brief introduction to yourself or some of your work? well, I serve at, Faith Builders educational programs.
I've served there as a campus pastor, and instructor, been there for about 18 years and, have really, enjoyed the opportunity, that it has offered me to study, to teach, to learn and, been very grateful the, last, couple of years now, I have been giving off some of my classes to younger ones, but, still teach there. yeah. 18 years. It's hard to believe it's been that long, because.
Yeah, you came there at the end of my time living in that area and being around Faith Builders, we interacted a little bit. But it's also the time when our sister church started there, so we didn't actually go to church together. But, went to youth group and so on. So, yeah, I was intrigued by your recent book. was a commentary on Ephesians, and you gave it the title, “God's Glory in the Church”. And yeah, to start with, maybe just explain, you know, why that book or why that title? yeah.
Well, I would understand, God's glory to be a fairly central or overarching theme of Scripture, actually, you see it, the emphasis in creation, the emphasis then obviously in the, the plan to redeem, to bring us back to God. And I think Ephesians probably, Paul, in that letter, explains, the glory of God as a really, central purpose in redemption, that it's a display of His glory. And we see that in the opening chapter a number of times.
He says, to the praise of His glory, that, we were chosen in Him before time. And it's to the praise of His glory, or the glory of His grace. and then that we live. We are those actually Paul saying that those who first trusted in Christ that we should be to the praise of His glory, and then the wrapping up of the redemption unto the praise of His glory. So you get this past, this present, this future work of God and it's huge and it's all for His glory. Yeah. And the scope there is so big.
And I mean, honestly, I was reading through your commentary and I'm thinking, okay, this sounds, you know, the words you write sound over the top. It was like, maybe my experience doesn't match this. This doesn't acknowledge problems or whatever. And then I was like, well, wait, you're writing a commentary on Ephesians, and Ephesians is all about unpacking all that glorious stuff.
If you're in First Corinthians where you'd see the other side of it and we will, come around in a future episode to address some of that underside. When the church doesn't display that glory well.
And I'd also say, you know, the picture that we get in Ephesians is, that actually God's glory is being displayed in ways that are larger than actually about us or our time or our sphere, maybe even, but that what He's doing in Christ is actually, displaying His glory, the wisdom of God to principalities and powers. So it's more than about us. He's doing something in the heavens or in the heavenlies, as Paul use that expression.
So it's this, huge things that we actually then are something of the display of God's glorious grace and wisdom and mercy, that he's displaying to heavenly powers. Yeah. Good. So there's an edge there that we may not even see. it's not for human audience only. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's good. Yeah. So along with that, and you used the word you talked a lot about God gathering or assembling people into the church. And you'd often use assembly with a capital A there in Ephesians.
which I like the wording. but then we talk about that. Yeah. What is this church in Ephesians that's displaying God's glory? And I'm thinking about it because most of the time in the New Testament, we come across church and it says, you know, the church that meets in somebody's house or that churches in this city, and it's very, you know, particular gatherings. But then in Ephesians, it seems to be, am I understanding it right?
It seems to be this reference to like believers across time and place and everything. yeah. How do you see that? And maybe a little bit how those relate. Yeah, well, I think the sense of assembly or gathering is something that we can miss with the common use of the word church. we can easily associate church with a building or, and a locality. And the picture we get in Ephesians is certainly this pulling together, this coming together of all things in Christ and all.
It includes believers from around the world, from all time. So that's the bigger one. But obviously there is the assembling also the coming together in localities which, is where we actually are experiencing Christ. And yet it's, energizing and invigorating and, just expands our understanding to realize that we're part of this larger, much larger around the world, around, across time that we are assembled together with.
And so I like that larger picture which, enables us, I think, in times of perhaps disagreement or distress or trouble in our local settings, to keep the bigger picture in mind that, so they're not antithetical to each other. It's, together. It's both local and global. yeah, yeah. That's helpful. And I feel like I've went on a, well, okay, I've seen the need to emphasize different parts, I guess, over life.
So a number of years ago, I think I was especially sensitive to, you know, people would talk about, well, the church is all believers and then just wouldn't emphasize the actually functioning together in groups. And so that led me to a kind of a, you know, a stronger emphasis on the local church where you're actually gathered and actually functioning. but then. I have come to realize exactly that point that you were making.
If we just focus on the local church and lose sight of that bigger piece, or if we think our local churches are self-contained and we don't need input from other believers or something that becomes, you know, you get this small world pretty quickly if you think it's all if you think we can be by ourselves and one congregation or whatever. so the church displays God's glory. It's a group of people around the world brought together. You have all this glorious language in, in Ephesians.
but how much of that depends on the things that are actually going on in actual relationships, whether they're locally or even believers relating from around the world. and so I'm thinking about it as I think about Ephesians, ethnic reconciliation is a big theme. this idea of unity, the gifts of the spirit, you know, separation from evil, loving each other. Yeah. How much does that display of glory depends on, like, these things actually happening in specific relationships?
Yes. Well, I think it's a, always the challenge because we are still imperfect. We are still growing into the likeness or maybe continually growing into the likeness of Jesus as each generation comes, as new believers come in, and so we're always facing the challenge of demonstrating the glory of God, in our local settings, with our imperfections and, I don't have all the answers for, what that means for local, settings.
And yet I care about, I think if we can see when we're facing distresses or differences or challenges, that if we can realize that this is about more than just our comfort or our, resolving this problem, it actually is about the glory of God. And, our interactions need to be such that, you know, if Paul says whether we eat or drink, we do all to the glory of God, then certainly how we talk to each other should be to the glory of God.
And how we resolve or face or resolve issues should be to the glory of God. So we're always facing that challenge. But sometimes if our focus is simply on, being comfortable or, getting this problem solved, we can lose sight of that bigger picture and our responsibility and calling to bring glory to him through our interactions. Yeah. So that's powerful. So what I think, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong.
But I think what I hear you calling us there is instead of, you know, me being a spectator to the church I'm involved in and saying, well, you know, does this look glorious to me or doesn't it look glorious to me? You're saying, okay, Marlin, step back and think, here's what God wants to do. How are you relating to your piece of what God's doing in the world, which is part of a much bigger thing. We can't just say they, got to say me. And what am I doing here?
I maybe if I would press this question a little bit further, though, so one of the passages I think about is chapter three, verse ten, which you already alluded to.
God showing His wisdom to the principalities and powers, through the church, His multifaceted wisdom and in the flow of that, a lot of that seems to have to do with, you know, the mystery of the gospel, which is this is not just the Jewish people anymore, and it's not just people who have become proselytized to take up that Jewish identity. it's bringing the nations together. so we definitely see that on a global scale, and we see it pictured in Revelation, all gathered around the throne.
we see, you know, currently we see the church spreading. Spreading through the world. but how much of that is, is it actually important that that happens locally and within concrete relationships, you know, across cultures, across ethnic lines and so on? yeah. Is the glory just that there's a church in Africa and a church in America? Or is it people getting along, across those backgrounds? That's a constant challenge.
It seems like our tug is toward being together with people who think like us and act like us and live as we do. And so that's the constant tug. But I think it's part of the glory of the work of Christ that, brings together diversity into this oneness, a diversity of backgrounds and so on. And there certainly is diversity of thought that wouldn't be appropriate to come together. But coming together where we lay down the superficial differences and focus on our unity in Christ.
So I love to be in groups where there is this diversity. I love where there's, ethnic difference in our background and differences of experience. And, I've been in situations where I've taught where people have come together from different denominations, sometimes from different countries.
And, there's always something thrilling to me to see that coming together and being able to focus on Jesus in, a way that that, disregards some of the background and, or maybe, again, the superficial differences between us. so I recognize that tug. I recognize even that maybe there's going to be, always be some level of us coming together with like minded in particular ways that we live out our faith. And yet, I think we need to be open to it.
And, allowing Jesus to really be the central reason why we are being gathered together, why we're coming together. yeah. Thanks for unpacking that. yeah. Anything else you wanted to say here? Yeah. Especially related to how God intends the church to display His glory.
Yeah. The only thing I would say, maybe, is that I need to acknowledge that this probably has been one of the biggest areas of discouragement for me, as I think about what we have made of the church with our divisions and bickering over, it seems like trivial things, we can more easily see it in other groups than in ourselves. and I've wondered, I remember as a younger man studying Ephesians, really, and just feeling like, Lord, what has happened? What have we done?
And feeling, and asking, what are the, what can be done? And, it does seem like the fragmentation is something that I don't know. I don't know how to undo. I'm don't know that I have the bigger answers, but it has led me to a number of personal things that I've purposed. And one of them is that I don't ever want to be a person around whom believers gather against other believers, that I don't want to be a part or, and particularly leading some kind of a division.
Obviously, there has to be division between the church and the world, but between believers just, not encouraging that. Purposing also that I want personally to keep Jesus central so that people that I interact with are drawn toward Jesus, not necessarily toward a particular idea or practice or whatever. And again, ideas are important, practices are important. But we easily start losing the centrality of Jesus when we're focusing too much on those things.
And also then another kind of personal purpose is wherever I see a person experiencing Jesus or pursuing Jesus, encouraging that, not looking at the ways in which they're not, but looking at the ways in which I can encourage. And that's when I interact with neighbors, when I interact with people from other groups or whatever. If they are focused on Jesus encouraging that and participating in that, because that's where our real unity is going to lie. yeah.
So I hear you saying that you've found ways to. Maybe, maybe be more hopeful and also to, you know, to really look at. What am I doing? What are you doing personally? Yeah. Yeah, I like that. And there was a, this reminds me of a, section from your commentary that really resonated with me, which was. And I can't quote it exactly.
something to the effect of, you know, whenever a group is group of believers is polemic or defined by what they're against, you know, there's inevitably this kind of faction and counter reaction. And so on. And, yeah, I heard you calling there to be centered and centered on Jesus and unpacking that. And you. Yeah. You can't identify. You can't let what you're against become your identity or it becomes a disaster. Even if the thing you're against is bad, it still becomes a disaster.
If it's your identity. Yeah, yeah, thanks for that. That's helpful and encouraging. Have been on, you know, similar process of thought, trying to think through those issues. So yeah. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode. Very welcome. Thank you for watching, this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. as we mentioned, I'll be doing another interview with John, releasing soon. talking about the question, do bad churches glorify God?
And diving into how to think about, some of those difficulties in church. also, if you have enjoyed this episode, you may enjoy, an interview that we did with Val Yoder, which we'll link below. talking about an Anabaptist view of church. And thanks for watching.