Real change comes to the world through the Kingdom of God and through Christ, changing the hearts of, of people and that, you know, empires come and go. So you have the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire, and they all I mean, they they come and go, but the Kingdom of God is is an everlasting kingdom and it’s without end. Welcome back to Anabaptist Perspectives. we're joined by Merle Burkholder today. And. Merle, you've been involved in ministry for 45 years.
You've been in, in church leadership for a good while now. you do a lot of teaching and so forth. And one of the core concepts within the Anabaptist worldview is, is how we relate to the nations that we live within. And you helped write a article on this. Yeah. Which we'll link down below. Dealing with some of this. And we're gonna dive into that because hardly needs to be said.
But we're filming this in an election year here in America, and especially it feels like the last number of years, the political scene has gotten very aggressive and has seemed to dominate so many conversations in society, and that is bleeding over into our churches, which causes a lot of confusion. You know, what do we do with these questions? How how do we handle these things where there's so much, fear and rage and all these unknowns about our country and so forth? What's the proper response?
So we want to get into that feels, again, particularly poignant and relevant right now, with the current election that's coming up here in a couple of months as of this recording. So let's jump into that. yeah. Do you have words to say as far as introduction at, you know, laying the context of for the conversation and then we'll just jump in from there? Yeah. Nationalism is, something that has a pull, it has an allure for our people.
part of it is that, we've never lived anywhere this long without being persecuted. So, we're in new territory, and we've been frugal and have worked hard, so we've become prosperous. And so we have things, and we've lived here a long time in this country. And so we can begin to identify as Americans or Canadians and begin to see ourselves as citizens of this country, which we are. and there's a lot of things that are wrong in society.
There's a lot of things that bother us that that are not the way they ought to be. And we see change that should happen in society and legitimately so. And so we say, well, how is that going to happen? How is how is change going to come? And politicians offer hope for change and that there's going to be they can make it happen and they're the one who can, you know, solve the problems.
And, And then when politicians come, that may have, maybe a pro-business agenda or they, seem to agree with us on some social issues. then we can get drawn into. Well, they'll fix it. and that's the way to to bring change to the country and, and and we and we want our way of life to be preserved. And we want to be able to live the way we live. And and we lose that pilgrim and stranger concept that we'll live wherever we need to live, to practice our faith.
And so if we can't do it here, maybe we'll move to Uganda and and. Do it there, but it's it's not site specific. We can practice our faith. We will live where we need to live, to practice our faith. And we become we want to defend our way of life in the country in which we're living, and feel like we have a right to live here and we need to be, able to live the way we live.
And and another thing that's happened is that, Since World War two, we've become accustomed to the approval of society and that people say, oh, you Mennonites, you're good people. And and you're we really like you, and you just have a nice way of life and, and you're really good people. And we've forgotten that what it means to live in an atmosphere where society thinks we're wrong and that, we're not necessarily good people. And, and so and there's never been a good time to be a Christian.
To be a committed Christian is is always counter culture. but there's a pressure to get drawn into the culture of our, of our, of the society around us and to feel like. government and politicians are the ones that can, can bring change. And then, politicians feed into that by using religion as, as a way to create support for their agenda and, and what they want. And politics is fueled by fear and rage. And so if you can, if people are either afraid or they're angry, they'll turn out to vote.
And so politicians fuel fear and rage in order to, to motivate people to go to the polls. and there are things that should make us angry. There are things that should make us concerned. But what we do about that is, is where the difference comes in for us as as followers of Christ. And so then politicians will use religious language to, well, it gets it gets it gets co-opted for political purposes.
So a couple of years ago, President Biden, made a statement saying when the Lord asks whom shall I send the the American military has been answering that call for a long time. Here am I send me so... that's interesting biblical hermeneutics being applied there. wow. But when we begin to think that the American military is answering God's call, it just distorts the whole basis of, of Scripture. And and, you know, Isaiah's call wasn't a call to the military.
that isn't what God asked him to do at all. and, in the 2020 state of the Union address, President Trump had, the widow of, of a, soldier that had been killed in, in battle or in service.
And his widow was in the gallery at the state of the Union address and president Trump asked her to stand, recognized her, and then he, said, you know, right now your husband is looking down on us and and it's it's almost like if you lose your life in the military, like it's a ticket to heaven, like you're going to be. So it gets close to, some other religions, like Islam's concept of if you're a martyr, you're you're going to Paradise.
And it's not like dying in military service is not a, an assurance of, of going to heaven. And but those, those things can get into our thinking and we can feel like, like that's the answer. And, and then we see politicians that they may do things that we like and things that we support and things that we agree with. And we're like, see, it works like they they got it done. but the problem is that political solutions are temporary solutions, like you win and you lose political battles.
And so while there may be short term results, they're not enduring, they're not lasting. And so just thinking about, just thinking about the abortion question, for decades, the Republican Party used abortion as a way of motivating their base, like, we have to overturn Roe v Wade. And so you come out, you vote. We'll get that done. And for decades, they motivated people To vote. And there were people who said, I don't care about anything else. I'm a one issue voter. I'm just voting on abortion.
That's the only issue that matters to me. The rest is all. Whether they're militaristic or whatever is is a side issue. I'm voting on the issue of abortion. So then President Trump did what he said he would. He appointed three conservative justices. They overturn Roe v Wade. Now, the anger and the fear on the abortion issue has shifted to the other side. And so now the Democratic Party will use it as a way of bringing their people to the polls.
And and we have to overturn we have to restore these things. And. and so someday it may go the other way. And, and so it's just it's a short term it's a short term solution. And, and it's, politics isn't doesn't make long term grassroots change. So it hasn't changed. You can overturn Roe v Wade but it doesn't change the demand for abortion. It doesn't. There's still people who want abortions. And so it it it doesn't bring change at the grassroots level.
So is this a challenge of methods as in what's going to actually work or is it more than that. or maybe a little bit of both. well, it's a little bit of both. it's it's, how does change happen? And, but it's some, a recognition that real change comes to the world through the kingdom of God and through Christ changing the hearts of, of people. And that, you know, empires come and go.
So you have the Greek Empire and the Roman Empire, and they all I mean, they they come and go, but the kingdom of God is is an everlasting kingdom and is without end. And, when you think about when, like Jesus lived in a time of, political oppression for Israel and, and people wanted to make him a king and wanted him to be a revolutionary and get rid of the Romans and establish, a godly kingdom in Israel and, and and, and he didn't do that. He, he didn't have any interest in that.
A matter of fact, when they were going to take him to be king, he would he would disappear. And and he he he didn't he didn't allow them to to put him into that position or into that slot.
And he could have he probably I mean, he, he, he could have taken that position and but let's think about even if he would have been successful, like, what if he would have become the king of Israel and he would have been able to somehow defeat the Romans and establish a nation of Israel and restore the worship of God in Israel. And it would have been like today, 2000 years later, what would be the the result of that?
It would be rather minimal compared to what he actually did when he brought in the kingdom of God and and how that's changed lives way beyond the boundaries of Israel and all around the world. You have people who are followers of Christ, and it has it's permeated societies all around the world. And the problem with nationalism is it's such a small idea. It's just one, one little geographical region, and the rest of the world is kind of well, it's it's it's not even thought about.
And it's just like, well, we're really going to do something right here in this country. But but what about the rest of the world? And the kingdom of God is just this global thing that removes all the barriers and all of the distinctions that people make. And, and so it's it's a much bigger, grander idea and concept than, than nationalism. I think that was an important concept for myself when thinking through the these challenges with, with nationalism.
And that is America, population wise, is only 4% of, of the world, 4%, which is very little in the grand scheme of things. And, and that made me kind of stop and be like, oh, maybe we're not quite as significant as we like to think we are, which you have the American complex of thinking we're we're the best thing ever.
but then you have the other side, too, where you scale it back and say that the global church is this massive entity that covers every basically every nation, not every people group, but but basically every country. And, is way bigger, way, way, way bigger and more enduring than America will ever be. And also this thought that, you know, one day, every country that that now exists will probably not exist because things change.
I mean, if you read through history, you take any of the countries that existed then and things change, borders, move, etc. maybe we're dealing on a timescale that's too, too small or too, short. Is that like if we're getting wrapped up into nationalism, I should say, how does that resonate? What would you say to that? Yeah, I think that's exactly right. We focus on the short term rather than the long term.
And when we focus on the long term, then we're thinking about the kingdom of God and and that eternal kingdom, that everlasting kingdom that is without end. And and we invest in something that really is enduring and something that really has potential for the for the long term. So maybe a, possible way of, of thinking about this and dealing with, with nationalism is simply to encourage people to think on bigger timescales.
you know, that seems a bit simplistic, but I actually wonder if what if we were thinking in timescales of 500 years or a thousand years from now, what's going to be here exactly Yeah. and also to think beyond our own ethnicity, our own, our own nationality and that it's so much bigger than all that. And, it's something that that is, is way broader than one, one country. So that's interesting about, you know, we identify as citizens of the countries we live in.
I mean, in the sense that I have an American passport or so forth. You're a dual citizen. So how does that work? You're both Canadian and an American citizen, I wonder, does that give you any extra insight if you have multiple countries now that you can identify with? Does that change the narrative for you at all? Is that a helpful piece of context for us here? Well, one of the things that was interesting was I was born in the United States, so I was an American citizen, at birth.
And then we moved to Canada and I became naturalized as a Canadian citizen. But before I did that, took that step. I didn't want to lose my United States citizenship. So I wrote a letter to the State Department saying, can I retain my U.S. citizenship if I'm naturalized as a Canadian citizen? So they sent me a 20 page document with all the reasons why it's not a good idea. And and then the last 2 or 3 pages were, however, it is possible.
And here's some things that if you decide to do it, these will help you. One of the things was that I could make, a notarized statement that I don't intend to, forfeit my U.S. citizenship. And I intend to fulfill the responsibilities of a citizen of the United States. by doing the following things. And so I went to a lawyer, and I. I drew up this this paper, and I made a list of things that, these are things that I will do as a faithful citizen of the United States of America.
I will pay my taxes. I will obey the laws. And I forgot what all was on the list. But obviously military service wasn't one of them. But, here are the things that I will do as a faithful citizen of the United States. So I have also have a citizenship in the kingdom of of heaven, the kingdom of God. That's my primary allegiance. That's my primary identity. I am a citizen of of the kingdom of God. And so that's my primary identity. However, I live in Canada and I will.
And when I took the, when I went to the citizenship ceremony to become a citizen of Canada, I had to affirm that I will be a loyal subject of Queen Elizabeth the Second. And so I said that I will be a loyal subject of Queen Elizabeth the Second. And so there are things that I do as a loyal citizen of the British Empire, I guess, and or the Dominion of Canada. But I still recognize that my primary allegiance is to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
And so I I'll be a I'll be a I'll be a loyal subject of well, King Charles, but my primary loyalty is to the King of kings and Lord of lords. And so I'm I'll do these things as a citizen of the United States. file a tax return. I'll do the things that they require. I'll be a loyal subject of King Charles. But I am, primarily a child of the King and and, a servant of the King of kings and Lord of lords. And so, you know, we do have responsibilities to the nations we live in.
And there are rights and and responsibilities of being, a resident and a citizen of, an earthly kingdom. But we always remember that we do have another citizenship. And that's where our primary, that's where our primary loyalty is. And one of the things that, the United States government said was, you have to think about if you become citizen of another country, what if those two countries go to war? Who are you going to, what are you going to do?
You could really you could be drafted by both countries And, and we have to recognize there are times when the kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this earth are in conflict. And and in those moments, our primary loyalty is to the is to the kingdom of God. And that's where that's where we default to. So you're saying primary allegiance to Jesus and his kingdom? What would you say to someone who says, well, absolutely, I believe that.
And because that's my primary goal, I believe I should become involved in, voting nationalism, the political system here in America or wherever their country is. And they believe that that's the best, that that is a great way they can serve Jesus and his kingdom. What would you say to that again? Does this come back to you? Well, you have the methods wrong or is there more to it? Yeah. What do you say to someone like that?
Well, I feel like, if I'm going to get engaged if I'm going to get engaged in the politics of a nation, whether it's the United States or Canada, I can begin to see that involvement as politics, as the solution to the problems of the country. And it's it's and it's very limited in what it actually can do compared to what the kingdom of God can do.
And so I want to be so busy in the kingdom of God that I don't have time to really figure out who who is the best politician to be, to be in power And I think it's also a conflict of interest. If the president of the United States states is the commander in chief of the military. How can I be part of appointing somebody to be the commander in chief of the military? When I just think, I mean, I can't participate, I am so then I think I'm in a conflict. I think I'm in a conflict of of interests.
if I'm if I'm voting and if I'm getting involved in the political or in the political process. yeah. That's that is a really good point, because if you're involved in the process of appointing the commander in chief, but, but also holding to a stance of nonviolence or, radical enemy love or however you want to say it and then say there is a war and a draft, and that commander in chief now asks you to serve or requires you to serve.
And you say, well, no, that does seem like that's not consistent. Really at all. Yeah. And I think that, you know, there are people then that say, well you're just you're just benefiting then from what the rest of us are doing and, you know, we're, we're getting involved politically. And so the whole thing of, of, well, if good people do nothing, then evil reigns. And so if you don't vote, if all the good people don't vote, then we're going to have bad politicians, right?
And, but it's not, it's not an either or situation. It's not either. I vote Like I can do other things. so I can be active in my community. I can be doing things that will bring change to my community. I'm not engaging in the political system to bring change, but I'm getting involved in. like a food bank. I'm getting involved in in a fire department.
I'm getting involved in, in things in the community where I'm having an impact on the community, and I'm engaging with the homeless community or whatever it is. so it's not like I'm. It's not like I'm a good person doing nothing. I'm a good person doing things. But it's not it's not the political things. And so it's not like, well, it's either politics or nothing. It's like, yeah, good people need to do something, but it doesn't have to be politics.
There are other ways to bring change to the to the world. And I think that the other things are actually probably more lasting, have more long term lasting effects than, than politics. but if if we're not doing anything, if we're not willing to expend our energies and perhaps even put our lives at risk for the sake of the kingdom of God, then the accusation that we're just benefiting from what other people are, are doing is, is justified. that's that's interesting.
because, yeah, I've definitely heard that too. I mean, different service members and things, you know, like, well, hey, you guys are getting a free pass from all our hard work of maintaining this, this system, of the, country of America, essentially. the other thing we have to recognize, though, is that, the practice of our faith and the wealth and the not the wealth, but the the well-being and the welfare of the church is not dependent on a particular political system.
That's an excellent point. so people say, well, you know, the country is, you know, going, you know, into authoritarianism or into communism and, you know, it's going to be really bad. Not necessarily. The church has prospered under some pretty adverse political systems. And so we don't need to protect a certain. Form of government or a certain system of government in order for the church to be healthy and, and to to prosper.
And so it's a bit of a fallacy to think that we really have to fight for our, our political system, and we really have to fight for our religious freedoms or the church is going to be, you know, extinguished. No, it's not, it might actually be really healthy under a, under an adverse political system.
Yeah. That that's that is an excellent point that that could very easily be a fallacy of like, well, if it wasn't for the strong military of the United States today, the church here would not continue as it is. But yeah, you're totally right. I mean, if you study history, the church does not need a particular system to survive. I mean, the church thrived, you know, under Roman persecution, for example, like the early church.
I mean, that was, basically unlike any, persecution levels that we've seen recently for the church. And, and it thrived, it grew. And I think that's pretty important. I think there's this fixation or obsession with power going on here of like, we have to do control of this. maybe it's the human desire of feeling in control of something and, being afraid of the unknown. And maybe we'll lose this, that we have. I think you made a really good point about.
We've never lived in a place this long without getting persecuted, the Anabaptist people. And so that's maybe making some shifts in how we perceive what's important maintaining the status quo, maintaining the the right power structures to keep us from getting persecuted again, perhaps. I'm a bit rambling here. I'm not a historian, so, you know, I don't want to say things that are incorrect, but, it does feel like that. It's got to play into it. You know?
so it's very easy in conversations like this to focus on all the things that we don't do. We don't vote, we don't go to the military. We don't this we don't that. and I guess that's all fine and good. but Those that criticize our position. What is a legitimate response? So we can say, that we are, functional members of society and contributing in other ways, just not in the ways of involvement in the political system or the military system. Talk me through that.
Well, part of it is, you know, the things that we the positive things that we do, do and, just one in the whole area of abortion, like we do foster care and we do adoption and we support, we do things to support single mothers and, and families that are struggling. And so, we get involved in, in those kinds of things and, In Sioux look out, where we live, where the churches are operating, a food bank, and there are people that, you know, they're housed, but they're really struggling.
And if their lives get much more dysfunctional, they will lose their housing. But providing food is one way of helping them to be able to to at least stay housed and stay functional as a family. And so we we do those kinds of things. so, there's things that we do in our communities, but there's also things that we do internationally on a global more with more of a global perspective. When you think of the migration of people and refugees and, some of the crises around the world.
we go there, we, we provide medical care. We provide. Help for people living in refugee camps. We. We. we get into situations where there is poverty and we work to bring change and to, to help to, for people to experience development and to to get a vision of what, what they, what they can do and, and how they can bring change into their lives, in their communities. And so we become very active because we just we know that, the gospel is good news to the poor.
And Jesus came to release the captive and and, and, and and so it's we're doing those things, because we do believe that changes can come into the world. so that's, I think, an important piece where you're saying transformation and change, restoration and so forth is very possible. The issue is fixating on the wrong methods. Is that a way of saying it? again, the obsession with power, like that's the thing with politics that always has bothered me is this push.
We got to get our guys in power, like get, get, get on top of this thing and, push our way and, and it just feels so aggressive. And you look at what Jesus did and it was not that he didn't go around trying to dominate. And get in power and get as big of crowds around him as possible. There's multiple times of the New Testament where he sends the crowds away, which is so counter intuitive, at least for us here in America, is like, that's not really how we tend to think.
It's like, how much influence can we get? How can we dominate this situation and push for real change? and one of the problems is when when politics courts the church, then the church acts. The church doesn't gain power, it doesn't gain control. It becomes, it becomes a support group for a political party. It becomes it becomes a, an interest group for a political party.
And a political party will do just enough to make the church people think that they're going to do what they what they what they want. And but it gets intermingled with all the other interest groups that they have, the oil industry and the pharmaceutical companies. And then there's the church. And and so it becomes it just becomes a group, a support group for the political party. And it doesn't really gain. It doesn't really gain control.
And a matter of fact, it kind of dilutes, I think, the power of the church in, in the community, because then we become identified as, oh, you're yeah, you support that political party. So then there's a whole segment of people that just kind of say, well, we'll we'll write you off then, And when we're when our position is nonpolitical, when it's not tied to a political party, then, it just is. It's just more powerful because you're not being co-opted by a political party.
one of my friends was, he gave a lecture at, I think Ohio State University and about anabaptism. And after he was finished with his lecture, the professor said to him, I don't think you people realize the power of your position, and the power of your position is that you're not tied to a political system or a political party, like you're operating totally outside of that whole sphere. it's actually bringing change through a whole different system.
And it's that much more of a grassroots level where people's hearts and lives are being changed and, and people's desires are being changed and, and people's lives are being changed. And then that brings change to this. It changes society at large. But it seems at first maybe more insignificant, and maybe it takes longer. But, but I think the changes are more long term.
I was going to say it, it does seem like it takes longer, but but is more enduring or is lasting like it can using the example of Jesus three years. At the end of it, he has 11 disciples, you know, and then it's quite a number of years yet till the church gets to any substantial numbers within the Roman Empire. but it was like this slow, almost like a, a patient, slow development. But it was so much more enduring and it had so much more resilience to it.
So as we think of all these things, we've hit a bunch of different, angles to this conversation. I'm sure there's a lot more there's lots of different opinions out there. but for those listening to this, what are ways they can get involved? What are some things they can do now that do side with those longer, enduring changes?
There's deeper impact in people's lives and especially pulling back from whatever country they're in as they listen to this and say, actually, I want to focus on Jesus's kingdom and building that because that's something so much bigger and last so much longer. How do they go about that? How are ways they can impact society around them, their neighbors, their neighbors? Based on the things you've been sharing here?
Yeah. Well, I think it's, first of all, the power of community and being connected to a community, to a community of faith, and and then that community of faith becomes a platform for doing what needs to be done in the community and learning to know our neighbors, just connecting with the people around us and, and knowing the five people who lived closest to us and building relationships and the kingdom of God is is, it's it's working in the world, but it's also invitational.
You can be part of this. and as we build relationships, we impact society around us in, in positive ways. And it's invitational in which you can be part of this. This is for you. And, and I think we get engaged in things that will, provide wealth, and provide health and well-being in our communities. And there's a whole concept of, well, the Hebrew concept of shalom, which we often think of as peace, but actually it's more comprehensive than that.
It's like a whole concept of well-being, like it's working for everyone. And and so we work for that in our communities. And you can you can suppress violence with greater violence. So whoever has the biggest gun can, but you don't solve the problems. All you do is suppress violence or you suppress dissent because you have more you by the use of force.
But when you step aside from the from the use of force, then you can deal with the issues and the problems, to where you really bring well-being to the community and you work for a society that really works well for everyone. And then then you don't need force. you don't need to use force to suppress bad behavior and, and violence because you're really working for well-being.
And so I think we work for the well-being of everybody in the community. And, and do that through whatever avenues but the community of faith, the church becomes the platform to to do that and not some nationalist system or, or something like that or a political entity. It's it's, God's people working together for, for the betterment of of the people around them. Yeah. yeah. Well, that's really good.
I hope this episode is inspiring to some people to not, you know, not the typical bashing on nationalism, which is kind of easy to do and like, oh, you know, politics. It's so. Yeah. And that's true politics is kind of a mess and so forth. But actually they I'm hoping will come away from hearing this and say, okay, but how can I get to know my neighbors? How can I help the widow down the street? How can I better society in that way and contribute in that way?
especially again, we're going into election here soon in America, and there's going to be a lot of time spent, you know, watching the news or reading the articles or talking about it and all this stuff. And what if we we turn all that energy towards helping your neighbor? You know, it's really easy to talk about how terrible things are, but actually going out and helping someone is actually is hard sometimes. is there anything you'd like to say as we, bring this episode to a close?
Well, the first presidential election that I remember in my lifetime was, 1960, when Richard Nixon was running against John F Kennedy. And there was a lot of pressure in Anabaptist communities. You must vote for Nixon. Like, if we have a Catholic president, we're going to be under the pope. And, you know, we're not going to have religious freedom, like we're going to have a state church and we cannot have Kennedy as president.
And, well, Kennedy won the election, and we still have religious freedom. And Nixon didn't turn out to be a very reputable person in the long term, either. And it's just a reminder that things aren't always as they appear in the moment. And I think in almost every election in my lifetime, people have said this is the most important election ever. If you don't vote this time, like, this is everything, you know, we're just going to lose our freedom. Everything's going to be lost.
And people on both sides of the political spectrum Yeah. That's interesting. Now that you say that, I'm thinking back to all elections that I've lived through, it seems that always comes out somewhere. And Oh, this most important election of our lifetimes, every, every time, it's Yeah. But when you think back 20 or 30 years, the person who won didn't I mean, it didn't turn out to be a disaster that the other side predicted.
So I just think we overrate the importance of politics and we underrate the power of the kingdom of God. I think that's a excellent point to end it on. And with that encouragement of pour into God's kingdom, build his kingdom, and focus on, Focus on that and serve your neighbors. You love your enemies. Yeah. Thanks so much for sharing. I appreciate you coming on. Your Welcome, Yeah. Thanks for listening to this episode with Merle Burkholder.
If you found this topic interesting, we actually produced an entire audiobook on this topic by David Bercot. It's called In God We Don't Trust, and you can find it linked down below. You can get it anywhere you get your audio books. Thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode. politics is fueled by fear and rage. And so if you can, if people are either afraid or they're angry,
they'll turn out to vote. And so politicians fuel fear and rage in order to, to motivate people to go to the polls. and there are things that should make us angry. There are things that should make us concerned. But what we do about that is, is where the difference comes in for us as as followers of Christ. And so then the problem with nationalism is it's such a small idea.
It's just one, one little geographical region, and the rest of the world is kind of well, it's it's it's not even thought about. And it's just like, well, we're really going to do something right here in this country. But but what about the rest of the world? And the kingdom of God is just this global thing that removes all the barriers and all of the distinctions that people make. And, and so it's it's a much bigger, grander idea and concept than, than nationalism.
there would be very much would be interest there now. So one thing it just because we have interest in it, we love to do it. because we've actually talked to about it a little bit. Just because you can see the chatter doing, it doesn't mean necessarily that we won't write time. Sure. It takes effort. It just doesn't work right. For the last conversation. Right? Good. Going back to overload. Yeah, we're already way ridiculously, disappointingly, embarrassingly so.
behind on schedule with the Frank Reed project in collaboration with SBI. We're about a year into that, and we still haven't released anything yet. Embarrassingly. Very. Yeah, but but my excuse is we just we're hiring two full time people and that takes a lot of work. And but those are just excuses. We need to start delivering on them on on some and some of our commitments. But I'm sorry.
And even if you couldn't do it, if you could help us figure out how to how to get it done, that would might be helpful. Will it take you back to your board and say there's interest on our end? I think I can say