Just before we put our jackets on to walk out the door to come to the studio to record this episode of the podcast, roboc and I received all warning that we should not record this episode of the podcast. So welcome everybody to this episode of Amy and TJ. Robes Sitting next to me, it has been a hell of a few days for a bunch of reasons, and a bunch of messages and reporters and phone calls and things have been coming our way for news that a lot of people expected that finally came.
That's right, Kim Godwin, president of ABC News, has announced that she is leaving not only ABC News but the entire broadcast television industry. And she announced that late last night, and as you might imagine, text kept coming our way. It's interesting because I think maybe many of you, and certainly some of my friends and family expected me or us to feel some sort of vindication or that we felt like justice was served now that Kim Godwin is gone. But that is not the case. And I want to
make that very very clear. I didn't and we didn't feel any of those things. I would say the best way to describe how I feel is sad. It's sad when someone loses their job. It's sad when someone leaves a profession they love for whatever reason. And given all that we've been through, it's just sad that this is how the story ended. None of us wanted things to go the way they did.
Yeah, and folks who are maybe getting caught up a little bit, maybe, but the news is out there. Kim Godwin is out as the president of ABC News. She stepped down, like you said. She says she's retiring from
the industry. But I guess the writing was on the wall for the past several weeks if you were reading anything out there, some reports, But also we have obviously we have insight, and we have friends in the building, and we've been hearing a whole lot about what's going on there for the past year and a half and how people felt about what was going on. So the fact that she was leaving didn't come as a surprise
to us. In fact, when we left in February of twenty and twenty three, when we left the network, if we were betting folks, it was only a matter of when she was going to leave, and maybe not even how she was going to leave. We were talking about this the other day with someone. Nobody necessarily leaves pretty when they leave that network, so it didn't come as a surprise to us. But this is a for us.
This was the person who made the phone call at six am on December fifth, twenty twenty two, telling us not to come to work, and we never got back on the air at ABC News. So she was very central in everything that ended up taking place with us. So I did you got message this morning? And look it's been out there in print, so like ding dong the witch is dead, you got that message. I got a message someone using the word justice like justice has
been served. Now that's neither one of those sentiments are what we felt this morning.
No, not at all. And I think it it opens up that wound of you know, what we had hoped could have been that wasn't. And so yes, when we were let go, it wasn't that we wanted her to be let go, but you just saw how it was all unfolding you and you knew the sentiment in the building. And it's a sad morning. That's the best way for
me to describe it. It makes me feel I just I'm refeeling all of the things I felt that day when we were told not to come into work, and then especially the day when we realized we would never be returning to ABC News. It just brings back all of those feelings of sadness and frustration and just I have a general sentiment of just feeling like it just didn't have to happened like this.
Yeah, and look we've talked about here, and it admitted the errors we made and what we should have done differently and better. And you know, I wish that Kim Godwin was never in a position to have Amy Roac and TJ. Holmes the issue of our divorces and our relationship ever come across her desk. I really wish that she never would have had to deal with it. But
here we are. Look what took place with her. You can go out there and read whatever issues people had with her, but you talk about torn and how the emotions. I had a hand. I had a personal hand and advocated for her to be president of ABC News because at the time, you remember this, we had a group of all of our African American talent on the air got together and wanted more diversity at the network. This is back in twenty sixteen, and then So when twenty
twenty comes around and the former president LEEH. Golston James this ghost and left and when there was an opening, we banned it together that same African American group, and we went into Disney leadership and said these this is who we'd like you to consider. We gave them literally a list of names. Kim Gobin was on it, and we and our group we talked about and said, hey,
should we take this name off. We came to a decision to give them a final list and she yeah, she made the cut, and we advocated for her being in that spot. So to talk about how conflicted it feels now, I mean, I'm conflicted and I wanted her to do well. This is the first black woman to be the head of a major news network. I need her,
We need her to have success. That same woman is the one who handled us and gave a call to me to not come back on TV, to not come back to work, and whatever issues I might take with how she handled that conflict. And now she's out of there in this manner, in this way, it doesn't look it doesn't come across and it won't look like there was a successful tenure of the first black woman at the head of a major news network. And that sucks.
It does, that absolutely does. And I too was excited to have a woman at the helm and she came at a time where there was a lot of work to do internally, and that was her mission. She wanted to bring people together. Her hashtag that she always ended. In fact, she just actually ended her goodbye note, her farewell note with her hashtag, which was hashtag one ABC.
That was her big focus, to bring unity to our network in the halls of ABC News, for people to feel like we were all part of one family, working towards one goal. And that was what she intended to do. And unfortunately that did not come together in the way she wanted it to. And I know that she I know you could well that was her mission.
Because be prior to right, there was plenty of talk out there. Look, some of these articles aren't there. That's why I preface it with that. But that was a different culture at ABC, and the idea was to bring her in to improve the culture. It's not so cutthroats. It's not really what you hear of about a newsroom oftentimes, right and the way it is, and to have a softer gentler more family feel that was her mandate, and
she came in with that mandate. At the time, she couldn't even get to know her own employees because.
It was the pandemic. So she came. Was it spring of twenty twenty one? Yes, yes, Abel to be specific, And of course we were all still in the throes of the pandemic, So I never even if I met her. It was through a mask and it was from a distance, But I don't even think I had a meeting with her until she had been at the Helm for over a year, which is so unusual. That's never happened before. I've had plenty of network news bosses and presidents, and
that's just unprecedented. But she came at a time where that kind of contact wasn't readily available. It was we were obviously a massive health crisis, so she wasn't able to maybe bond with some of the folks that she could have, or that she would have ordinarily if she had come at a different time.
There are folks now who are and have for a while that think she was given a different treatment because she is a black woman. She was handicapped in some way that there were the line the soft bigotry of low expectations. Right. They put her in a position that she couldn't win, that she couldn't succeed those debates, those arguments are not the ones we are interested in having. And you can have your opinion. People liked her, didn't like her, like her style, didn't like her, whatever it
may be. But for us on this day where we're starting to give messages over the past several days and even in the week or so, when the writing was kind of on the wall, where people are asking us or expecting us with now out of the building, nothing to lose, freedom to dump on her. No that even in private, you're not talking and now we can say that honestly in private with none of y'all listen it. We did not have a bad word to say no.
And look, this was a she was in an incredibly difficult situation when it came to our our I don't even want to say our situation. She was in a difficult situation with our difficult situation. And we have made it very clear you alluded to this earlier TJ that had we been more transparent, had we gone to ABC and told them we were having we were actually in
the middle of divorces. Had we gone to ABC and told them we were in a relationship before a tabloid photographer revealed our relationship, she would have been in a better position to handle this, and we would have probably been in a better position to keep our jobs. So we fully admit all of those things, and for her to have to inherit, that is a difficult situation I think for any leader to have to deal with when something like that takes on a life of its own
through the tabloids. I would and I implored her, and I asked her to handle it differently. I flat out begged her to keep us on the air until an internal investigation had actually happened and all the facts were known and we could just take some time to breathe. But she made her call, and as she was tasked to do as a leader, that was her best decision
in her opinion in that moment. I didn't agree with it, but it doesn't mean that I fault for it, because she was doing what she thought was best for ABC News and I fully believe.
That, and it's okay for us to think that was a mistake, Yes, right, okay, But I think a lot has been talked about now is that was a part of the thing that in terms of her leadership and how she was being I guess Disney or they were keeping an eye on her. That was one of the things that was not in her pro column, if you will, the handling of our situation, as you keep saying, but that's that people are alluding to that as one of
her mishandling, mismanaging of us. I don't know, Robes, and I'm not just saying it on Mike here for the podcast, and you know, I've been talking to you about it privately and I've been surprised, and maybe you have. I just didn't feel a whole lot when it comes to when I heard this news. There was not a single ounce of joy. It wasn't a single bit of me that applauded her stepping down having to step down. Yes, she stepped down, but I mean she was I mean
falling tins and purvises. Was knew she was not still wanted there. I guess her.
Power we all know with the with the introduction of Deborah O'Connell to come into the news department and have a position created for her, that oversaw basically Kim's position. So Kim was no longer reporting to Iger or to anyone else really over at Disney, but reporting directly to Deborah. That was obviously put in place to affect her ability to lead and affect her position of power. And ultimately we can just assume led to her decision to leave.
So as she leaves and we get all that, I get why people expect us to come out and go in or go hard or just there. That's genuinely, honestly nothing, And that has something to do with I guess the past year and a half of our lives. It has to do with growth, It has to do with empathy. I just see this woman. Nobody. I don't want her to go through what she's going through, whatever her financial package was, and she's gonna be okay, And I'm not
even thinking about that. You don't want this. She was a first This is not just a matter for her before a lot of other folks were looking at that when weird comparison. But when Barack Obama was elected, black folk's like, who we really need him to do? Okay, because we not go have another black president for one hundred years if this one doesn't put on a good show for all of us, and so this was to
be a first. The way she is, the way she was even in our even when I didn't like decisions she made when we were there, I still I need her to do okay and to still be sitting here now. There is no one I hold besides the two of us more responsible for us not being at the network than Kim Godwin. Right, we made our decisions and what not, so we have to we take our responsibility. But outside of us, the person I hold most responsible is Kim Godwin.
But I can sit here and not have a single bit of ill will towards Kim Godwin or applaud that she got what she deserved, got her come up, and so got no. I didn't want that for her at all, and my heart hurts for her in an entire news division that is in turmoil. If you believe what you read, but if we believe our text and calls and conversations that we have with people who are still in that building.
Yes, and uh, I you know, I can only hope that this is going to clear the path for a new way forward, and so that the people who we loved working with, who we still love who were still in communication with have have some hope, and some some new blood, and some just some new decisions and some some a new way forward, you know. I mean, that's all you can help for. And look any one of us, anyone who's been in this business, but in probably most businesses,
this is part of doing business. I have never been at any network or any news station where I haven't had a new boss after a few years. So this is not an unusual situation. Unfortunately, there is. This is a very tumultuous and as you I think you use the word cutthroat, cutthroat business. It just is. And anyone who's in it knows it. That's you're playing with the big boys, and you've got to you've got to play at a certain level. And so this kind of thing
is not unusual. Our connection to her is what makes this different for us. And I think you you know, you and I both we didn't There was no I didn't even I just felt sad. That's just the best way for me to put it. We weren't high fiving, we weren't saying karma. What goes around comes none of that, none of it. And I don't want to live my life like that. I don't want to hold onto anything
like that. And I really truly believe we've joked. I think we talked about it with Cheryl Burke about when people say it's not personal, it's just business, and it always feels really personal. And I get that and we've experienced that. But truly, when she made her call, it wasn't personal, it was business, and I get that, and
so I don't feel any anger towards her. And I think you and I had both said and everyone kind of thinks this if you go through a situation where I don't know, you've been fired or maybe it's even an X or whatever it is, where you've had a relationship or something with someone, and then you wonder what would happen if I saw them again, What would happen if I ran into them. We actually had the opportunity to realize what we were going to do if and
when that happened, because it did. We did run into camp recently.
Yeah, recent months, we have. We did see her, and people often you can't help buy right, like, if you could say anything to her today, what would you say? And people expect that to be something emotional or negative or just to go all did you just want a even and we did. We saw her in recent month and it was it was pleasant. She didn't see us. No, we made the effort to make sure. We reached out and we went and we made sure we saw her and she saw us, and we sent her a gift.
In fact, we literally, folks, we sent him Godwin a bottle of champagne as a gesture, not as a joke, but as a gesture, as a kind gesture, as a I don't even want to call it an olive branch, but it was just to say we good. We did this with her not too terribly long ago. So even then, when we had an opportunity to avoid her, we had a tough opportunity to go off on her. We had an opportunity to do all kinds of things. We didn't take that opportunity to do so.
And I will give you credit for the bottle of champagne idea, because it is one of those crazy moments where you think, Nah, what are the chances that we are actually sitting in the same place that she is. She has not seen us. We can totally see her. We can see everything she's doing and saying, and we could absolutely have walked out avoided her. We had a way to get out of that room or that area without her having seen us. But then we we did. We went back and forth, what do we do? Do
we go up and say hi? Do do we? I mean? We were just there was all the different possibilities. Yeah, right, And you had the idea to have the waiters send a bottle of champagne over and then kind of reference our table and we could just sit and wave and just say hi. And it just seemed like the polite, kind nice thing to do. As soon as you came up with the idea, I said, oh, perfect, that's exactly what we need to do. And I will say to her credit, when that happened, she was looking around like,
who just sent me a bottle of champagne? And she stood up and she came over to our table and she gave us both a hug, and you know what, that was all the closure I needed really at that point. It was perfect and it was the right thing to do, and I felt good about it. I walked away feeling better.
You know, I haven't thought of U until you said it that way. We've discussed that moment before, but that was our closure, not her leaving ABC, not anything else. That was our closure, and I didn't even know. Maybe we needed it, but it was that was a for us to be able to sit. Yeah, because we discussed back and forth for a while, what are we gonna do. Let's get our checked, Let's get the hell out of here. You sure you want to say what you really wanted
to say? It wasn't the case. Maybe that's a part of our growth, that's a part of our experience, but there is just no animus what I'm when when I see that the network or shows are struggling or behind or lagging, and then we get all the reports from our friends and colleagues and folks who are still in the building. I hate that because we know you talked about when you're in this business long enough, you get
a new boss and fresh ideas. But you know what, everybody for a little while is going to be on pins and needles and going to be on edge. It feels awful waiting for the next wave. So what's gonna happen. Are they going to come in it's a new boss, They're not gonna really like me? Or are they gonna really keep my show in place are they going to do that. There's still this this angst for a while, waiting for new leadership. The one thing I do think say they I are in good hands with Deborah Cara.
We if you're reading anything out there and you don't know who she is, you'll you'll read almost just glowing reviews about her in every article because she she is a wonderful one. We didn't get to work with enough, but we absolutely adore her. So she that makes me feel good. They are in very capable hands.
I'm glad you just pointed it out because that is so true. And yes, there is phrenetic energy when there's a new boss coming in town eventually or honestly, even the interim between, you know, when you don't have a new president and you're waiting for the person that they tap. But you're right in the meantime, Deborah O'Connell is the perfect person to lead that newsroom, that news division into or through this transition period until they actually end up
hiring someone else. And so I do feel good about our former colleagues and our friends being in very very capable hands with Deborah. So that is that is going to help the transition significantly. I don't think I've ever seen someone like that step up when we're in a period of transition, and we've had plenty of periods of transition, so I think this will be fully a better next chapter for ABC News.
It's crazy as it sounds. We root for them, we do. It sounds crazy, We root for ABC News because that's a place we did. We played such a role in
building it. In a I say building it, No, no, not ABC News, but we played a role in building some of the success that that show, or excuse me, Gma in particular, has enjoyed over the not responsible for let's not let me make sure nobody's can twist it, but we contributed greatly and we were leaned on greatly as members of that family, and that show has been doing so well over the years and the time we were there, so it's nice to think we contributed to it.
We don't want to see anything take away from it.
No, absolutely not, and we wish nothing but success in better days ahead for ABC News and all of the wonderful people inside that building.
I'm dusting off the resume. I'm going to submit my name. It's not that funny, Andy Geez Okay, I'm producing here. Okay, you aren't supposed to laugh that hard. That is that far kind of.
Hard too, Sorry you can't stop tickling. You think you'd make a good ABC News president in.
One respect, yes, and the other side no. I would hire the right people, but I I do pride myself on being right and you. It seems like often with bosses, you get one or the other. Someone's really good with the numbers and the spreadsheets and the planning and the ideas, or somebody's really good with people. Somebody's really good by making the your your team feel good, your talent feel good, the shows, everybody from the top down. It's rare to find somebody that has both. I would only have one,
the ladder of the two, the ladder I am. I am. I think you've seen me enough to where I am just a people person and I so to. We always say, if we open a restaurant together, you, I would be out there in front, in the in the in the in the the dinning room, shaking hands and making.
Everybody feel You would be the charisma guy and also the menu guy. You would you would definitely put the menu together, and I would be in charge of the decor and the aesthetics, and we would make a great team. That's it's good to know what you're good at, also good to know what you're not.
Charisma and decor. There's no food in this restaurant.
You know you've got the food. You're really good at that. And I said, could I just name one drink?
That's all?
That's all I wanted to do. No, No, So yeah, and I'm just I. We really wanted to come and just put our two cents in, just because we wanted to make sure that we reflected on our experience, but not in the way I think people thought we would. I really wanted to make it clear that we aren't celebrating today. We're reflecting and we're a little sad, but we're also hopeful that things will get better.
And this is a This is a a person that, like you said earlier, it's not personally, it's just business. And but this was someone that we do, over time get to know on a personal level. And when you know someone personally, when you know them as a human being, as a as a wife, as a mother, as a caretaker, as a runner, as a people with passion. She's very
much into her fam you right, her Alma mater. When you get to know somebody on that level, that's a human being that, no matter what they might have done in regards to you, and no matter how things might look, and in somewhatever headline you might see, this is a human being that we can't help but have our hearts go out to as human beings. And that that sentence just came out of my mouth, and I'm like, what
the fuck did I just say? And I'm talking about the woman who made the call that says TJ don't come back into work and I never went back in and it just I don't know, maybe it is empathy, Rose, but just to see the news, it wasn't celebratory. And we do we wishing everybody with ABC News well, and the other reason you said we wanted to come here and put our two sent in, well, we also wanted maybe the phone to stop bringing so everybody can stop asking us for comments.
Here it is, there's our comment. We wish everyone the best, and yeah, we wish nothing but the best for Kim and her future and getting to be with her family and getting to do the thing she loves and getting to take a break it's a crazy, crazy thing to be in the news business at that level. It is a twenty four to seven job. And so I hope she gets to enjoy yourself.
If nothing else, Kim, take it from us, there is life outside of the newsroom, and you might actually enjoy it when you get out of there and you're not in that same grind. It don't feel that same pressure. And it's just amazing how much life has changed for us by getting away from that and not voluntarily, sure, not voluntarily, but getting away from it. So to our friends at ABC News, to our friends at Good Morning America, we are we will forever. We're rooting for you. We're
rooting for you in this time of transition. We root for you in your ratings battles with The Today Show and CBS this Morning. We root for you that the NBA Finals will be high rated, so you get the residual we are rooting for you. And I didn't think about it until you said it. This This was not the button for us. The closure was when we saw her, got to hug, got to see her face again, got to say whatever we wanted to say, and moved on. That was our closure months ago.
And I really really felt peace after that, and I hope she feels that piece as well.
So, folks, you can continue to keep up with throbok and I here on the podcast on our Instagram page. The official one for the show is at Amy and TJ Podcast. We have our individual accounts as well, but we appreciate you all. As always, we spend a little time with us